[dillerX]

I guess I will never understand how blowing yourself up makes a difference.

[manzanahappy]

its sad but the percieved difference is "hey i get to go straight to (insert utopia) and take out a couple of (insert a centuries old enemy) while doing it, what a deal!

[vmarks]

Two suicide bombers and a car bomb.

In a place I used to hang out. Over a hundred wounded, many dead.

You have no idea how popular that intersection and walking mall (streets closed to cars) is on Saturday night-

First of all, it's tourist central. Ben Yehuda Street.
Second of all, it's Saturday night, the end of the Sabbath, so everyone goes out to socialize.
Near the Underground bar, the Yemeni Step restaurant, the Arizona bar, Ben and Jerry's, Sbarro, Bank Hapoalim, the tourist shops and falafel/shuwarma stands.

How dare they!

But then you realize, this kind of atrocity is not new to the Israeli version of civilised life. It's still repugnant, but it's also something you accept as a possibility of living in a free society. Sure, if they closed all borders, expelled any and all people who could be considered threats, if they checked National IDs all the time, if they tracked people via their cell-phones, if they randomly searched people- they might cut down on it a little, but not much.

And if they did even some of these things, they'd get bullied in the American press for opressing the Palestinians (same people who are the demographic that composes suicide killers, remember.)

(sarcasm coming) Of course, we in America have a neat double-standard: it's okay to consider closing borders, detaining people without access to legal representation, put up facial recognition cameras, racially profile, and track people via cell phones (FCC's e911 program, look it up.) All in the name of security. (end sarcasm)

So one conclusion that can be drawn is, Americans aren't willing to accept the risks that come with living in a free society.

I'm disgusted by people that commit suicide killings. I'm equally disgusted by people who consider selling out freedom in a fruitless attempt to stop suicide killers. There's nothing more dangerous than a desperate man, and when we've succesfully eliminated all easy avenues, the only ways left are ways of desperation. Why then are we surprised when a desperate act is committed?

Forgive me, I'm still upset by this.

[Scotttheking]

Holy crap!!
That good of a description, I think know exactly where you are talking about.
Yikes, and I was probably standing on that spot a few times.

[Nimisys]

sounds like palestine is really trying to display iraq as americas next target

[DoctorGonzo]

I guess engaging in an illegal occupation comes with its risks.

The stupid Israeli government should have listened to the UN 30 years ago when it ordered them to withdraw from the occupied territories. And the 34 or so other times they were ordered to leave.

The suicide bombings are a terrible thing.....there is no way anyone could condone them......but Israel brought much of this hatred on themselves by stealing land and occupying it in violation of international law and settling it in violation of international law. (Anyone who settles expropriated lands falls under the definition of a war criminal)

[Demonhood]

looks like a bomb took out a bus in Haifa, Israel.

the retaliation for this is going to be massive.

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
<STRONG>I guess engaging in an illegal occupation comes with its risks.

The stupid Israeli government should have listened to the UN 30 years ago when it ordered them to withdraw from the occupied territories. And the 34 or so other times they were ordered to leave.

The suicide bombings are a terrible thing.....there is no way anyone could condone them......but Israel brought much of this hatred on themselves by stealing land and occupying it in violation of international law and settling it in violation of international law. (Anyone who settles expropriated lands falls under the definition of a war criminal)</STRONG>

Guess the US is a war criminal then.

[pkatt]

What bothers me about this is that they're doing this while Sharon is in Washington and a US peace delegation is in Israel. I know they're doing this because Israel assassinated a Hamas leader, but they had the right since he had been planning many suicide bombings. The Palestinians don't want peace and won't be happy until Israel stops existing, but most of us damn americans can't see that.

[Wanjuro]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
<STRONG>

Guess the US is a war criminal then.</STRONG>

I registered just to say this.
DUH!

[lenkman]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
<STRONG>I guess engaging in an illegal occupation comes with its risks.

The stupid Israeli government should have listened to the UN 30 years ago when it ordered them to withdraw from the occupied territories. And the 34 or so other times they were ordered to leave.

The suicide bombings are a terrible thing.....there is no way anyone could condone them......but Israel brought much of this hatred on themselves by stealing land and occupying it in violation of international law and settling it in violation of international law. (Anyone who settles expropriated lands falls under the definition of a war criminal)</STRONG>

Not quite.

You forget that Hamas, DFLP, etc. don't do this because they feel that Israel should leave the West Bank. They do this because they think Israel should cease to exist. Even if Israel were to leave the West Bank, they will still "fight."

Remember, it is the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, not the DFL West Bank. Furthermore, the peace process was set to give 95%+ of the West Bank to the Palestinians (as well as some of Israel proper), and Hamas, DFLP, etc. became more active than ever. Blaiming the occupation of the West Bank for the terrorist activities is an over-simplification of reality.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

The Palestinians don't want peace and won't be happy until Israel stops existing, but most of us damn americans can't see that.

Yeah, way too many people in the US: "Blame America First, and Israel second" for everything.

Unfortunatly, until these creeps are blowing up malls and pizza parlors and busses full of civilians in the US every other week, many STILL won't wake up and realize that terrorists like Arafat don't want peace, and that there's no real reasoning with them. (Heck what am I saying? Even AFTER such is common place here, many will sit on thier asses and blame the US for everything). Every time there are peace talks, things start blowing up in Israel....like CLOCKWORK! You could set your watch by it!

Look for Arafat to come out with some bullcrap about how this is terrible or he's against what happend... then do a little wink and a smile toward the organizations responcible. Maybe he'll even go through the sharade of arresting some people, then they'll quietly be released a few months later.How long are we going to fall for this bullcrap song and dance? The pretending to be outraged after things like this happen, then the tapdancing around the blame and rounding up some scapegoats then later setting them free is all part of Arafat's act. He knows so many in the west are so stupid to keep falling for the same skit over and over again. "Who me? I had nothing to do with it!" Plus the usual crowd of morons chiming in with "Well gorsh! Them gosh-darned Israelis brought it on themselves ya know!"

[saltines17]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
<STRONG>
The stupid Israeli government should have listened to the UN 30 years ago when it ordered them to withdraw from the occupied territories. And the 34 or so other times they were ordered to leave.
</STRONG>

F�ck you.

That's all I have to say.

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: saltines17 ]

[M�lum]

Originally posted by lenkman:
<STRONG>

Not quite.

You forget that Hamas, DFLP, etc. don't do this because they feel that Israel should leave the West Bank. They do this because they think Israel should cease to exist. Even if Israel were to leave the West Bank, they will still "fight."

</STRONG>

First of all. This kind of attacks are disgusting and they sicken me.
I've been on that spot several times and have friends who go there every weekend. (I haven't found out if they're OK yet.)

But to come back to what you're saying: Some palastinian groups became this radical because of the occupation and even more radical because nothing was done to find a solution.
DoctorGonzo is not wrong, he might have simplified the idea.

And for the future? I fear this is going to continue for ever, getting worse and worse.
For me there is only one solution, and waiting for a better opportunity or better palastinian frontman is going to make this situation more difficult and more people will be killed.

and does it make the USA a war criminal? No. It's a completly different story here, if I'm wrong, please explain.

Originally posted by saltines17:
<STRONG>

F�ck you.

That's all I have to say.

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: saltines17 ]</STRONG>

[saltines17]

Originally posted by Rampage:
<STRONG>

</STRONG>

I'm annoyed and cranky.

[anarkisst]

Honestly, I hope they blow themselves both into oblivion. That seems to be what they want and that looks as how it's going to be. Fine...see ya...

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
<STRONG>

Guess the US is a war criminal then.</STRONG>

funny how it is the US fault... it was the british that put forth the plan to give isreal the west bank area and have palestine move over.

only solution i see is to have the UN annex Jeruselum as a whole similar to vatican city... and have them enforce it

[fulmer]

"funny how it is the US fault... it was the british that put forth the plan to give isreal the west bank area and have palestine move over."


back in the '40s, it was actually the UN's idea to partition Palestine--Jews in the north (where the land is usable) and Palestinians in the south (desert, general sucky land). Yerushalom would be an international city.

The British were given a mandate after WWI and their mandate expired on May 14th, 1948, the exact same day Jewish Palestine (Israel) declared independance. The other residents of Palestine, the Arabs, fought as well. Civil war for a while, then the Jews win. Botta-bing, botta-boom, Eretz Yisrael.

Maybe the Brits have a more recent plan which is being referenced, however.

[Lerkfish]

sadly, regardless of origin or fault, nothing good can come of this (referring to the whole thing, including actions by both sides).

as a creature, man has always sought to cleanse blood with more blood. And always seems perplexed when the stain gets bigger.

I wish we'd learn new and better tricks.