[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Oneota

Perhaps - but still, some therapy should take care of that, and they're still breathing. That's the important thing.

Some therapy will be necessary for most people, right now or in the long term. These people will be scarred for life; some wil wake up at night from nightmares, some will never be able to fly again, or at least fro a long time...

People recover well from trauma with various duration for recovery, but there is a 5% who may never recover or lead a normal life. For sure, no one will see the world, life, and themselves, the same way again.

[FulcrumPilot]

All 309 Survive Plane Crash in Toronto

By ROB GILLIES and BETH DUFF-BROWN, Associated Press Writers 7 minutes ago

TORONTO - A jetliner carrying 309 people skidded off a runway while landing in a thunderstorm Tuesday, sliding into a ravine and breaking into pieces, but remarkably everyone aboard survived by jumping to safety in the moments before the plane burst into flames.
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Twenty-four people suffered minor injuries in the 4:03 p.m. crash landing of Air France Flight 358 from Paris — the first time an Airbus A340 had crashed in its 13 years of commercial service.

The plane, carrying 297 passengers and 12 crew, overshot the runway by 200 yards at Toronto's Pearson International Airport, said Steve Shaw, a vice president of the Greater Toronto Airport Authority.

The aircraft skidded down a slope into a wooded area next to one of Canada's busiest highways, and some survivors said that passengers scrambled up to the road to catch rides with passing cars.

"The plane touched ground and we felt it was going off road and hitting a ravine and that's when we thought that was really the end of it," said Olivier Dubois, a passenger who was sitting in the rear of the aircraft.

"It was really, really scary. Everyone was panicking," Dubois told CTV. "People were screaming and ... jumping as fast as possible and running everywhere, because our biggest fear is that it would blow up."

Roel Bramar, who was also in the back of the plane, said he used an escape chute to get out of the plane.

"We had a hell of a roller coaster coming down the ravine," Bramar told CNN.

They said the power went off shortly before landing, perhaps after the plane was hit by lighting. But Dubois said he did not expect a crash landing and that there was no warning from the captain.

"It was very very fast," Dubois said. "As soon as the plane stopped, they immediately opened the side of the plane where we couldn't see anything and they told us to jump."

He said some passengers scrambled onto nearby Highway 401, where cars stopped, picked them up and took them to the airport. Two busloads of passengers were taken to an airport medical center.

Corey Marks told CNN he was at the side of the road when he watched the plane touch down and crash.

"It was around 4 o'clock, it was getting really dark, and all of a sudden lightning was happening, a lot of rain was coming down," Marks said. "This plane ... came in on the runway, hits the runway nice. Everything looked good, sounds good and all of a sudden we heard the engines backing up. ... He went straight into the valley and cracked in half."

A row of emergency vehicles lined up behind the wreck, and a fire truck sprayed the flames with water. A government transportation highway camera recorded the burning plane, and the footage was broadcast live on television in Canada and the United States.

A portion of the plane's wing could be seen jutting from the trees as smoke and flames poured from the middle of its broken fuselage. At one point, another huge plume of smoke emerged from the wreckage, but it wasn't clear whether it was from an explosion.

Airbus spokeswoman Barbara Kracht said the A340 has never crashed before in its 13 years of commercial service.

Chris Yates, an aviation specialist with Jane's Transport magazine, said the A340 is a very popular "workhorse" among carriers serving Asian and trans-Atlantic routes, with a very good safety record.

Although it was too early to draw any conclusions about the accident, Yates said, "we're probably talking about a weather-related issue here."

Although modern airliners are safer than ever, he said, extreme conditions can still be dangerous, especially during takeoff and landing.

"You can never account for weather," Yates said. "A thunderstorm can happen anywhere — it comes down to the judgment of the air traffic controller and the skill of the pilot to determine whether it's appropriate to land or to divert elsewhere."

Tuesday's airplane crash in Toronto came exactly 20 years after an American disaster that focused renewed attention to wind shear, a natural phenomenon that can make airplanes drop out of the sky.

While the cause of the Toronto crash has not yet been determined, the fact that it happened during a thunderstorm raises the possibility of wind shear.

The 1985 airline crash at Dallas-Forth Worth airport, which killed more than 137 people, made dealing with wind shear "a national imperative" for the U.S. federal government, said Larry Cornman of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo.

Since then, he said Tuesday, systems to detect wind shear have been installed at almost all major airports in the United States. Cornman said the Canadian government investigated installing such systems during the 1990s, but added he did not know how many have been installed.

Wind shear is a sudden change in wind speed or direction. The most dangerous kind, called a microburst, is caused by air descending from a thunderstorm.

The last major jet crash in North America was on Nov. 12, 2001, when American Airlines Flight 587 lost part of its tail and plummeted into a New York City neighborhood, killing 265 people. Safety investigators concluded that the crash was caused by the pilot moving the rudder too aggressively.

Toronto's Lester B. Pearson International Airport handles over 28 million passengers a year. Located 17 miles west of Toronto in the town of Mississauga, it has three terminals. Air France operates out of Terminal 3.

Paris-based Air France-KLM Group is the world's largest airline in terms of revenue. It is the product of the French flagship airline's acquisition last year of Dutch carrier KLM. For the year ended in March, the company earned $443 million on revenues of $24.1 billion.

Air France-KLM operates a fleet of 375 planes and flies 1,800 daily flights, according to the company's Web site. In the last fiscal year, it carried 43.7 million passengers to 84 countries around the globe. That made it the largest European carrier in terms of the number of passengers carried.

The A340 is part of the A330/A340 family of six related aircraft, all sharing the same frame, manufactured by Airbus, which is 80 percent owned by European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. Britain's BAE Systems PLC owns the rest.

The craft owned and flown by Air France is the A340-300. The plane, usually is equipped to carry 295 passengers, and fly 7,400 miles before refueling.

There are currently 237 of the A340-300 and its sister craft, the A340-200, in operation, according to the manufacturer.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by kmkkid

uh.... no we can't

Ok. NOW can we joke about it?

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Ok. NOW can we joke about it?

What is there to joke about? This was a very serious incident.

Yes, lets laugh about people getting hurt, and a serious mechanical failure of an aircraft that was holding over 300 people, which is now fried. Very funny indeed.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by kmkkid

What is there to joke about? This was a very serious incident.

Yes, lets laugh about people getting hurt, and a serious mechanical failure of an aircraft that was holding over 300 people, which is now fried. Very funny indeed.

Well, let's examine this thing up close, here.

Is it ok to kid about GGays, kkid?

[Kevin]

kkid is a bit defensive. Just look over it.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

kkid is a bit defensive. Just look over it.

ok.

never mind kkid.

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Well, let's examine this thing up close, here.

Is it ok to kid about GGays, kkid?

What the **** does me being gay have to do with making jokes about an airplane crash?

[Kevin]

I don't think he made a comment about YOU being gay did he?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't think he made a comment about YOU being gay did he?

Kevin, you are an inspiration!

Maybe one day your example will inspire kkid tto llern tto rreed llike yyou and mmo jjo 22!

[mojo2]

BTW, that Google Picasa Ad at the top of the page is very tempting. So I clicked on it and lo and behold, it looks like someone at Google got roogled.

Looky, looky here...

It’s free and takes
seconds to install.

System Requirements

Microsoft Windows 98/ME/2000/XP
Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0+
Picasa is available in English only.

I wonder how much business they get from MacNN users?

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Kevin, you are an inspiration!

Maybe one day your example will inspire kkid tto llern tto rreed llike yyou and mmo jjo 22!

Is it just me or is this forum full of idiots anymore? Or maybe one or two idiots with a multitude of nicks.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't think he made a comment about YOU being gay did he?

Geez, you're an asshole.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by kmkkid

What is there to joke about? This was a very serious incident.

Yes, lets laugh about people getting hurt, and a serious mechanical failure of an aircraft that was holding over 300 people, which is now fried. Very funny indeed.

I share your concern. Let us hold a funeral for all the poor metal that has gone to waste. The left metal wing was like a brother to me, a kind soul who always knew how to cheer me up. The tail rudder was a cheating bastard who had an affair with bolt #9 in the luggage compartment, but surely nobody deserves such a horrible demise, not even a piece of metal.

Rest assured, all of the metal is now safely in heaven, where they will live a peaceful afterlife. Each metal bit, no matter how tiny or how much recycled, will be treated with dignity, every last one of them.

Let us now have a moment of silence for the metal. . . . .

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Is it just me or is this forum full of idiots anymore? Or maybe one or two idiots with a multitude of nicks.

I wanted to ask you some questions about what is ok and what is not ok to kid about so we might better gauge your comments.

Kevin advised me not to persue it as you were "defensive." Some people have problems that aren't readily known and if you had a problem or something I didn't want to cause you any undue stress. I appreciated Kevin's attempt at peacemaking. (For a moment I thought he might be friggin Canadian!!! )

But then you showed up and just walked right into what you could have avoided and Kevin's attempt to spare you was all for naught.

So, now here we are.

I will, once again ask if it's ok in YOUR opinion to kkid about Ggays. See, there are some people without a sense of humor who like acting as the moral police awfuller (it's like a police officer but these awfullers are, well...you know.) in whatever group they inhabit.

The only things that are ok to laugh at are those things THEY decide are funny.

This is manipulation and it's a cheap and nasty form of manipulation. If you are doing this I want to make it known to the community.

So, tell us, Ggay jokes. Ok or nnot???

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by PacHead

I share your concern. Let us hold a funeral for all the poor metal that has gone to waste. The left metal wing was like a brother to me, a kind soul who always knew how to cheer me up. The tail rudder was a cheating bastard who had an affair with bolt #9 in the luggage compartment, but surely nobody deserves such a horrible demise, not even a piece of metal.

Rest assured, all of the metal is now safely in heaven, where they will live a peaceful afterlife. Each metal bit, no matter how tiny or how much recycled, will be treated with dignity, every last one of them.

Let us now have a moment of silence for the metal. . . . .

[Troll]

Originally Posted by PacHead

I share your concern. Let us hold a funeral for all the poor metal that has gone to waste. The left metal wing was like a brother to me, a kind soul who always knew how to cheer me up. The tail rudder was a cheating bastard who had an affair with bolt #9 in the luggage compartment, but surely nobody deserves such a horrible demise, not even a piece of metal.

Rest assured, all of the metal is now safely in heaven, where they will live a peaceful afterlife. Each metal bit, no matter how tiny or how much recycled, will be treated with dignity, every last one of them.

Let us now have a moment of silence for the metal. . . . .

Uhmm, it was an Airbus. Not a Boeing. Boeings go to metal heaven. Airbuses go to advanced composite materials heaven.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Uhmm, it was an Airbus. Not a Boeing. Boeings go to metal heaven. Airbuses go to advanced composite materials heaven.

Sorry Troll, but kkid hasn't allowed us to make jokes about it.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Let's listen for what badidea has to say about this Airbus aircraft. Also, I wonder what goes on at the manufacturer when one of their planes goes down.

Not much really!
I am working for the A380 and don't have any contact to A340 people.
I don't know anything about the true reasons for the crash yet (lightning, weather or technical defect??)!

Office conversation this morning wasn't more than this:

"Have you heard about the crash in Toronto?"
"Yeah, it was a A340 and nobody was injured!"
"Nobody injured? Great!! A340? Really? That's the first time, right!?"
"Yeah, I think so - first crash ever!"
"I heard it was struck by lightning!"
"Lightning? Really? But that shouldn't be a problem, right!?"
"Don't know what really happened - maybe weather was just too bad and Toronto opened the airport too early??????"
"I have seen a 340-600 takeoff in Toulouse yesterday - WOW, this is such an elegant airplane!!
"Yeah, I think so too - even better than the A380, it's just a fat bastard!"
"Well, maybe the A380-900 will look better, we'll see..."
"..."
"..."

[ghporter]

I'm thankful that nobody was killed. I'm thankful that the aircraft wasn't completely destroyed, so that investigators can get more information about what went wrong and how it went wrong. I'm thankful that the aircrew weren't injured, so that their inputs can immediately be used in the investigation.

I think it's kind of silly that Customs Canada made all the crash victims go through customs before they could join the people at the airport to meet them; what would YOU bring with you out of a burning airplane, your scared-to-death self, or your contraband as well?

I'm also going to be curious to see if the composite structure of the Airbus had anything to do with a possible lightning strike on the aircraft. Non-conducting structures in the airframe complicate the problem of handling both lightning and internal electrical issues.

[BoomStick]

It's a glass cockpit with minimal back up instruments.

A complete electrical failure on any airplane of that size is a guaranteed disaster.

From the news reports it looks as if he was going to do a go around and slammed into the runway, blowing the tires or perhaps the thrust reversers were disabled durint the electrical failure and weren't enbled when the system was coming back up.

If it's a fly by wire plane and had a total electrical failure, they are lucky to be alive at all.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

It's a glass cockpit with minimal back up instruments.

A complete electrical failure on any airplane of that size is a guaranteed disaster.

From the news reports it looks as if he was going to do a go around and slammed into the runway, blowing the tires or perhaps the thrust reversers were disabled durint the electrical failure and weren't enbled when the system was coming back up.

If it's a fly by wire plane and had a total electrical failure, they are lucky to be alive at all.

Well the B777, (the 787 when it comes out), A32X, A330, A340 (the A350 will when it comes out) and A380 are all glass cockpit fly-by-wire carriers.

In other words, all modern airplanes except for the B744, B737NG, B717 and the MD-11 are glass cockpit and fly-by-wire.

Food for thought

cheers

W-Y

[Troll]

Originally Posted by badidea

"I have seen a 340-600 takeoff in Toulouse yesterday - WOW, this is such an elegant airplane!!
"Yeah, I think so too - even better than the A380, it's just a fat bastard!"

I'll second that. There was one of each at Le Bourget and I think the 340-600 is the most graceful, elegant airliner I've ever seen.

Isn't an aeroplane a Faraday cage? Lightning shouldn't affect it. More likely too much water on the runway.

[BoomStick]

Most airliners have a deployable fan powered generator to power essential controls, however if this occurs on final approach, there is no time to repower-up the systems.

The Airbus that made an emergency landing after a 15 minute glide used his emergency generator to keep the hydraulics and instruments functioning for his landing after running out of fuel.

[wdlove]

Prayers were answered with this accident. Happy that no lives were lost, amazing.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Seems the whole evacuation of 300 people took a whooping 2 minutes.

[Fred_Cokebottle]

[oversize inline image removed]

http://www.tookiremovedthisurl.it/im...1/00000187.jpg (tookiproofed!) [Deliberately breaking the rules, and then mocking them, is not OK. Bye bye URL. The pic wasn't important anyway. --tooki]

The wingspan on these A343 babies are pretty impressive. Reminds me of sailplanes. Wondering if the possibility of hydroplaning is higher if the spoilers dont get deployed. May be the ground effect makes it even more harder to get a grip on the wet sloshy runway.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Troll

Isn't an aeroplane a Faraday cage? Lightning shouldn't affect it. More likely too much water on the runway.

It should be a Faraday cage! Even with the usage of composite structures - as ghporter already mentioned - the cage should still work! The A380 structure panels are made out of 7 layers and at least 1 is aluminium (as far as I know)!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika

Geez, you're an asshole.

Why? Because I pointed out that he attacked him for no reason?

How silly.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Reportedly the plane had enough fuel to divert to Montreal but the pilot decided to land in Toronto

[Eug Wanker]

OK, so I'm finally back in Toronto. I was flying standby and was to take a flight from Cincinatti yesterday to Toronto, but they cancelled four flights to Toronto. So instead of taking my chances with rebooking today, I just flew to Rochester instead and took the ferry over.



When we flew into Rochester, I could see a nasty thunderstorm off in the distance. Lightening every 10 seconds or so.

To my surprise, the plane was half empty. I would have thought more people would have taken this route, but basically nobody did. The ferry is quite nice actually. It's only 2.5 hours, and I watched the movie The Interpreter for most of the trip. (They have two mini theatres on board, and a full bar.)

Oh and if you're ever in Rochester... The Comfort Inn at the airport sucks. (We tried the Marriots, but the ones close to the ferry were all full.)

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Reportedly the plane had enough fuel to divert to Montreal but the pilot decided to land in Toronto

Hmmm... I was wondering exactly this... Why he didn't divert to Montreal or Buffalo or something.

BTW, I was watching last night in my hotel room and ABC interviewed this guy who was on the plane. It seemed like the guy was mildly drunk. He talked about partying the night before in Paris, and then after getting off the plane, partying again cuz he survived the plane crash. Very strange first hand account of the crash.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

BTW, I was watching last night in my hotel room and ABC interviewed this guy who was on the plane. It seemed like the guy was mildly drunk. He talked about partying the night before in Paris, and then after getting off the plane, partying again cuz he survived the plane crash. Very strange first hand account of the crash.

And that was just the pilot!

*rimshot*

[kmkkid]

You really should get that stutter looked after mojo.

I still dont see why people would want to make jokes about a serious event, but ok, whatever.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Heh. I'm taking the ferry tomorrow morning, but to Rochester. We're visiting friends in MA and I just can't handle the thought of driving all the way around the lake.

[Fred_Cokebottle]

Originally Posted by Fred_Cokebottle

[oversize inline image removed]

http://www.tookiremovedthisurl.it/im...1/00000187.jpg (tookiproofed!) [Deliberately breaking the rules, and then mocking them, is not OK. Bye bye URL. The pic wasn't important anyway. --tooki]

Please ban me. I am a peace-loving rebel with a cause. I am sure the action will speak louder than words!



The url for the A340 cool wingspan pic below:
http://www.torinoscienza.it/img/orig...1/00000187.jpg

[Eug Wanker]

So I had to go to the airport to check for my luggage. I drove past the crash site. I couldn't see too much from the road, but saw part of the fuselage. It was located at the beginning of a ravine as you know, but that ravine goes significantly deeper a little bit further out. It just reemphasizes how close it all was to hundreds of deaths.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

And that was just the pilot!

*rimshot*

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

So I had to go to the airport to check for my luggage. I drove past the crash site. I couldn't see too much from the road, but saw part of the fuselage. It was located at the beginning of a ravine as you know, but that ravine goes significantly deeper a little bit further out. It just reemphasizes how close it all was to hundreds of deaths.

I think hundreds of pillows might just be the answer. Seriously. Fill in that ravine.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by kmkkid

You really should get that stutter looked after mojo.

I still dont see why people would want to make jokes about a serious event, but ok, whatever.

I don't see why SOME PEOPLE'S thoughts would turn to sex in the midst of such a serious event!

But whatever!

kmkkid
Addicted to MacNN


Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,879
Status: Offline
report abuse
Yesterday, 01:33 PM

some eyewitness says that he was talking to one of the stewardesses and "they think they got everyone off"


Good news
__________________

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I think hundreds of pillows might just be the answer. Seriously. Fill in that ravine.

They have looked into filling it but it was rejected. It was also mentioned that if the ravine was NOT there the plane would have gone across 8 lanes of highway traffic possibly killing all on the plane plus car drivers.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

They have looked into filling it but it was rejected. It was also mentioned that if the ravine was NOT there the plane would have gone across 8 lanes of highway traffic possibly killing all on the plane plus car drivers.

Three words...

HUGE RUBBER BANDS

[Eug Wanker]