[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

The discussion so far has been mostly Busch-league. I wonder if it's possible to salvage something meaningful from this thread. Probably not, but I am ambitious...

What is Christianity in a nut-shell? God created man and the Earth, endowed us with these incredible abilities (reason, compassion, creativity, etc.), and then vanished without leaving a shred of evidence. We can gain admission to Heaven if and only if we accept Jesus into our hearts and have him forgive our sins. Am I close?

According to this account, which I understand to be basically accurate by having talked to Christians, the murderers, rapists, and child molesters of this world can go to Heaven if they love Jesus. The do-gooders of the world who do not love Jesus will be condemned to eternal damnation. Fair enough - believe what you want - but this isn't sounding like a value system I want to subscribe to. God gave us a sense of reason and the ultimate challenge in life is to learn to abandon it?

I believe in human interest, and frankly I see logic and reason as being more of a vehicle to improving the human condition than religion. Let's face it - religion doesn't have a very good track record. In human history, more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason. The crusades? September 11th? Northern Ireland? Palestine? Pouring hot lead into the ears of the heathens? Condemning Galileo? I don't see the situation as improving.

This is not to say I see religion as being all bad - I have seen religion do wonderful things. I'm just challenging the assumption that morality must be tied to religion

Let me propose an alternative - what if we invented God to give us purpose and not so alone? I don't see another way how someone can look at the overwhelming evidence that supports evolution and still deny it. Would it really be so hard to believe if this were the case? I can see traces of this attitude come up even in this thread. For example, in Doofy's joke: "admiring all that the "accident of evolution" had created." People don't WANT to believe that our distant ancestors were protein chains floating somewhere in the ocean. Indeed, that is a far less comforting presumption than that an all-powerful God created us in his image. But, personally, I would rather confront the truth for what it is, and make the best of it, than trick myself into believing false stories.

But, the last thing I want to be accused of is being "narrow-minded," a dreaded accusation here. I'm open to discussion. So, for all if you who read my post with your blood boiling and wishing that you could change my mind, here's your chance. I'm listening.

Fyr4ce, if this thread were a lower back ache, you would be the heating pad.

an open wound, you would be the Neosporin.

This thread needs stitches though. Staples, maybe.

[Kevin]

What Fyr4ce doesn't understand is. evolution doesn't negate religion.

[Azzgunther]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What Fyr4ce doesn't understand is. evolution doesn't negate religion.

Did his post look something like this to you:

議論は今のところ大抵ずっとリーグ� �ある。 私はこの糸から意味を持った何かを� �助することは可能であるかどうか疑� ��に思う。 おそらくない、 しかし私は意欲的... である
殻のキリスト教は何であるか。 神は人及び地球を作成した、 これらの信じられないい能力(理由寄� ��される、との私達 同情、 創造性、 等.), そして証拠の断片を残さないで消失� �せて。 私達は天に私達の中心にイエス・キ� �ストを受け入れ、私達の罪を許して� ��らえばときだけ入場を得。 私は近いか。
この記述に従って、 私がクリスチャンかに話すことによ� �て基本に正確であるために理解する� ��どれ 殺人者、 、 そしてこの世界の子供molesters は天にイエス・キリストを愛すれば� �くことができる。 イエス・キリストを愛しない世界の� �想的な社会改良家は永遠のに非難さ� ��る。 ほしいと思うが、ものが十分に公平� �- 信じなさい- これは私がを予約購読するにはたい� �思う価値システムのように鳴ってい� ��い。 神は私達に理由の感覚を与え、生命� �最終的な挑戦はそれを断念すること� ��学ぶべきであるか。
私は人間の興味を信じる、 そして率直に私は見宗教より車の多� �人間状態の増進へであるとして論理� ��び理由を。 それに直面しよう- 宗教に非常によい実績がない。 人間歴史では、 より多くの人々は他のどの理由より� �の名でも殺された。 改革運動か。 9 月11 日か。 北アイルランドか。 パレスチナか。 heathens の耳への注ぐ熱い鉛か。 I don't see another way how someone can look at the overwhelming evidence that supports evolution and still deny it.非難のガリレオか。 私は見改良するように状態を。
これは私が見ることを言うために行� �れなく完全に悪いとして宗教を- 宗教がすばらしい事をすることを私� �見た。 私はちょうど道徳が宗教に結ばれな� �ればならないという仮定に挑戦して� ��る
私を代わりを提案することを許可し� �さい- 私達に目的を及びそう単独で与える� �めに私達が神を発明したら何か。 私は誰かがいかに進化を圧倒証拠を� �る支えることができ、まだそれを否� ��するか別の方法を見ない。 実際にこれが事実だったかどうか信� �ることはとても堅いか。 私はこの態度の跡がこの糸で浮びあ� �るのを見ることができる

?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You think man is not sinful? Then you think we can be sinless and therefore perfect? I disagree. I think man is far from perfect. Even a teeny-tiny miniscule single error/sin seperates us from God.

I don't think he was saying that man is perfect. I think maybe he has a problem with the concept of sin itself, especially as it relates to the idea of repenting, atonement, etc., to the very being who created the sinner to be a sinner.

Just a guess. I wanted to reply so I can see if I read enough into his brief post.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Azzgunther

Did his post look something like this to you:
<snip trolling space wasting idiocy>

Nope, not at all.

As if everyone religious denies man has evolved. The Bible actually supports the fact that man has changed. Heck, God even claims he helped it along.

God can make one in his own image, and have evolution still exist.

One doesn't negate each other.

Sorry that didn't work the way you wanted it to.

BTW to answer is comment about those who go to hell and those who don't

It's just not believing. It has to come from the heart. It has to do with intentions and purpose. So a murderer could be a murderer believe in Jesus, and still go to hell.

Belief that he existed or that he died for your sins isn't the only thing that is needed.

[Azzgunther]

I was under the impression that one need only ask god's forgiveness and his sins were abdicated on the spot?

Regardless, Fyre4ce made some poignant statements that will predictably be largely unaddressed. The question I especially would like you to clarify is that which asks about the basic hypocrisy of the pearly gatekeepers. Am I to believe that I might live this life having donated substantial amounts of time, energy, funds, heart, and emotion to the sick, impoverished, and unfortunate AS A NON-CHRISTIAN and will be condemned to eternal damnation in hell? Do you really believe it? This is where many of us disembark the religious train and shake our heads at those who choose to stay aboard. In fascination. Pity. Bewilderment. Your god is a narcissist. With a world of religious choice, why aspire to please such a fickle diety?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Azzgunther

I was under the impression that one need only ask god's forgiveness and his sins were abdicated on the spot?

Well yes that is part of it. I said just believing wont get you anywhere .

Regardless, Fyre4ce made some poignant statements that will predictably be largely unaddressed.

Mostly because it's been addressed many times over and over again in here with the same results. Fyre did not ad anything new to the religious discussion that hasn't already been dealt with in here many times.

The question I especially would like you to clarify is that which asks about the basic hypocrisy of the pearly gatekeepers. Am I to believe that I might live this life having donated substantial amounts of time, energy, funds, heart, and emotion to the sick, impoverished, and unfortunate AS A NON-CHRISTIAN and will be condemned to eternal damnation in hell? Do you really believe it?

If you don't believe, why does it matter to you? BTW that isn't hypocrisy.

No one leads a perfect life. No one. No matter how many good deeds one does.
God cannot be in the presence of sin. Jesus died for us to cleans us of said sin.

How can one be cleansed if one doesn't believe?

This is where many of us disembark the religious train and shake our heads at those who choose to stay aboard. In fascination. Pity. Bewilderment. Your god is a narcissist. With a world of religious choice, why aspire to please such a fickle diety?

And many were never on the train, but recently got on and wonder why we never saw it before. There is also pity for those who pass it by. You'll make God out to be whoever you want him to be regardless of the truth.

I don't pick and choose a religion based on what I deem suites my worldly wants or desires. I've picked one that has changed my life so I no longer feel the need to have those desires.

[Azzgunther]

If you don't believe, why does it matter to you? BTW that isn't hypocrisy.

No one leads a perfect life. No one. No matter how many good deeds one does.
God cannot be in the presence of sin. Jesus died for us to cleans us of said sin.

How can one be cleansed if one doesn't believe?

Here is where I always If I'm understanding you correctly, a Charles Manson who accepted Christ (and by proxy god) would go to heaven, whereas I burn despite being kind to my fellow men and women and generous to the needy? I burn? In hell???? He continues existence in paradise? You have to admit that that is some wild stuff you've got there.

The reason it matters to me is because I'm surrounded by this. Our gosh-darned government, which used to cherish the seperation of church and state, now defends supreme court nominees by saying that they are "religious enough" for the extreme right. That makes this important to the not-so-silent majority. We're frightened about what is going on, and when we get somebody like you to talk with us we want to see if it's possible to get you to see sense. It's kind of a small sample but, if I believed that Christians could be objective enough to give America back to the circumstances upon which we became great, perhaps I could spend my concern on other things instead. One problem at at time.

Mostly because it's been addressed many times over and over again in here with the same results. Fyre did not ad anything new to the religious discussion that hasn't already been dealt with in here many times.

Understood, fair enough.

And many were never on the train, but recently got on and wonder why we never saw it before. There is also pity for those who pass it by. You'll make God out to be whoever you want him to be regardless of the truth.

I don't pick and choose a religion based on what I deem suites my worldly wants or desires. I've picked one that has changed my life so I no longer have said desires.

If only all Christians were so benign as you, friend, we'd have a chance for a decent world. I see too many quasi/moderately/extremely evil people who push their agendas with a pious mask and thus no consequence.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What Fyr4ce doesn't understand is. evolution doesn't negate religion.

Interesting point. I don't think it should. What about the idea that God started the process of evolution, which ultimately resulted in the creation of man? This requires a more liberal interpretation of the Bible. But I was drawing my remarks from the fact that many Christians I know, including many at MacNN, deny evolution. In Pennsylvania, there is a movement to teach Intelligent Design theory in science classes, which is basically Creationism in pseudo-scientific clothing. I think it's ridiculous.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You are not close at all. You have some of the right words, but out of order or incorrectly attributed. You do not have Jesus forgive your sins. God forgives your sins because of Jesus' sacrifice. There is nothing in the Bible about Jesus entering our hearts. God will change your heart, but not enter it.

Basically, man is sinful. God abhors sin. To be forgiven of sin you have to accept that Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins to be removed and that you will live a life according to Jesus' teaching. When we accept that, then God changes our hearts and we will be allowed into Heaven.

EDITED: in=is

Thank you for the correction. But, come on, I wasn't that far off - I think it was pretty good for a non-believer.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally Posted by Kevin

And many were never on the train, but recently got on and wonder why we never saw it before. There is also pity for those who pass it by. You'll make God out to be whoever you want him to be regardless of the truth.

I think you're wrong. I live my life in the pursuit of truth. I make God out to be what I can see him as. If He would appear before me and engage in a discussion similar to what we're having now, that would be sufficient for me. I live my life based on reason, not faith. Reason holds airplane wings together, not faith. But, of course, God would never do this, I'm sure you would tell me. If He appeared before me, He would be making it too easy for me. It's my job to accept Him without proof. But I don't work that way.

We've talked plenty about the possibility that God exists. What about the possibility that He doesn't exist? Maybe we created Him so we wouldn't feel alone? The Bible is written by humans, not God. What if it were a collection of fables meant to teach people how to live good lives? Or, is this conjecture so ridiculous that it's not even worthy of being considered?

[noreturn]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

If Christianity truly is correct and the Christian God created the world and Jesus was truly His son, then it's not narrow minded. It's simply fact. You can't accuse the Christian God of being narrow minded - that simply doesn't make any sense.

Would it be narrow minded to insist that there are four quarters in my pocket and not believe anyone that said otherwise? Not really. If there weren't four quarters in my pocket, then I simply would have been wrong, but I wouldn't have been narrow minded.

You seem to have a problem comprehending the concept of faith. It requires you to believe something that you can't prove to be true. It's not an easy thing to do.

This is almost perfect in addressing the usual narrow-minded accusations thrown at religion (and more specifically, Christianity). You're not going to call Galileo narrow minded because he believes that the earth is round and orbits the sun, are you? Of course, he could be wrong, but that has nothing to do with being narrow or open minded.

Originally Posted by bad_quote

I think you are less intelligent than this dude:
And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter.
-Thomas Jefferson

Do you even understand how this quote does not help you in the least? It's a comment on the trends of humanity and its inability to correctly remember, not the illegitimacy of a religion. Your name is fitting.

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned”

What did we learn?:

(Assuming Christianity is correct, hypothetically) We learned that, like gravity, day, and night, there are certain forces that work in our universe. Sure, it's not fun that we have to 'believe and be baptized,' just like it's not fair that I can't fly, but guess what? Life's not all fun. Christianity didn't start off as a soapbox for insecure people to get up on and be pious and place judgement on the world. It started off as someone saying, "Look, here are the facts. You don't like it? Your choice."

It's just like any religion. It's just like any hypothesis or theory. Either it's right or it's wrong.

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

Thank you for the correction. But, come on, I wasn't that far off - I think it was pretty good for a non-believer.

Haha.. I've heard better...

I think the main issue I took with your explanation is that according to the Bible (a good read, if you're going to debate this topic) God hasn't just up and left. Sure, there's evil in the world, but it's at the expense of having free choice. You have to draw a balance. Kind of like free spech vs. trolls on message boards.. not mentioning names or anything.

[noreturn]

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

We've talked plenty about the possibility that God exists. What about the possibility that He doesn't exist? Maybe we created Him so we wouldn't feel alone? The Bible is written by humans, not God. What if it were a collection of fables meant to teach people how to live good lives? Or, is this conjecture so ridiculous that it's not even worthy of being considered?

And a very good point. Fact is, faith is personal. Which is why nobody will ever win one of these debates. When you lay all the facts down, the religion does make sense, except for one hole. And what you need to cross that hole is faith. Once you have faith, everything else is good to go.

You could be right.. You could be wrong. You'll find out soon enough.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by Azzgunther

If I'm understanding you correctly, a Charles Manson who accepted Christ (and by proxy god) would go to heaven, whereas I burn despite being kind to my fellow men and women and generous to the needy? I burn? In hell???? He continues existence in paradise? You have to admit that that is some wild stuff you've got there.

None of the Sunday-money givers in here want to tell you that you'll burn in Hell if you are "kind to your fellow man/generous to the needy" but don't accept Christ/God.

but yea, that's what the idea is. It's wild.

[Kevin]

We are ALL sinners. A sin is a sin is a sin.

In God's eyes a lie is a sin. In God's eyes a murder is a sin.

Being that is how it is (Biblically speaking) What seperates us?

Faith.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Kevin

We are ALL sinners.

Please. Speak for yourself. But not for me.

[Azzgunther]

Originally Posted by Kevin

We are ALL sinners. A sin is a sin is a sin.

In God's eyes a lie is a sin. In God's eyes a murder is a sin.

Being that is how it is (Biblically speaking) What seperates us?

Faith.

Have your sins then. I maintain that it's a huge blemish to Christianity's credibility to assume that merely asking forgiveness will be a ticket to paradise.

Or that god would punish his own children on that basis alone.

Somehow that creeps you out, I know it.

[OpenStep]

can we please see the original images that were removed without a link

[Fyre4ce]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Please. Speak for yourself. But not for me.

You've never sinned?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Please. Speak for yourself. But not for me.

Please in the future, quote everything I said (Biblically speaking). I know your post wouldn't have made sense had you did, but come on...

I put that in there for a reason so people wouldn't make comments like you just did. We are speaking hypothetically in a biblical context.

It doesn't matter that you don't believe sin exists. It's irrelevant.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Azzgunther

Have your sins then. I maintain that it's a huge blemish to Christianity's credibility to assume that merely asking forgiveness will be a ticket to paradise.

Again, as I said before, that alone wont get you into heaven. So why people keep saying it and repeating it as if it were true is beyond me.

Or that god would punish his own children on that basis alone.

We send ourselves to Hell. God didn't make Hell for us.

Somehow that creeps you out, I know it.

What creeps me out? If I don't know, how in the world do you seem to know?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Please in the future, quote everything I said (Biblically speaking). I know your post wouldn't have made sense had you did, but come on...

I put that in there for a reason so people wouldn't make comments like you just did. We are speaking hypothetically in a biblical context.

It doesn't matter that you don't believe sin exists. It's irrelevant.

I have no idea what you're talking about in your above comment.

I was purely objecting to the absoluteness of your post. You can believe in whatever you wish, that doesn't bother me one bit. Absolute statements that include me into your personal belief systems do bother me.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

You've never sinned?

I don't believe in the idea of 'sin'.

Neither that there is a reward given by a third party, God in Christianity, for 'good' behaviour, nor punishment for 'bad' behaviour.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I have no idea what you're talking about in your above comment.

I was purely objecting to the absoluteness of your post. You can believe in whatever you wish, that doesn't bother me one bit. Absolute statements that include me into your personal belief systems do bother me.

Re-read what I posted.

"Being that is how it is (Biblically speaking}"

No absolutes or including you into my personal beliefs.

That is why I put said statement in my post. To keep said replies you made from happening.

Maybe you didn't read my post very clearly and just knee-jerked?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Re-read what I posted.

"Being that is how it is (Biblically speaking}"

No absolutes or including you into my personal beliefs.

That is why I put said statement in my post. To keep said replies you made from happening.

Maybe you didn't read my post very clearly and just knee-jerked?

What? Now you're confusing me even more. I honestly don't understand what you mean or what you're talking about.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Kevin

besson, notice, I never replied to his last post.

Me and Rob used to talk in IM from time to time. Till he got on this anti-Christian rambling kick and simply cannot stop doing it.

When was I pro christian?

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Not to take this into a religious discussion, but this is one of the main reasons why I turned away from Christianity and towards Buddhism.

Indeed. I think that man is many things, mainly who he wants to be. If someone tells me I'm a horrible person I'll laugh at them, because I know I'm not. I'm a good friend, I'm nice to a lot of strangers, and I stand up for what I believe makes sense. I also piss of people who make stupid decisions and frankly, NEED to be shown the whole world isn't 'down' with their idiotic decision to purchase a SUV or throw their trash out windows.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You think man is not sinful? Then you think we can be sinless and therefore perfect? I disagree. I think man is far from perfect. Even a teeny-tiny miniscule single error/sin seperates us from God.

That's retarded. What you just did was use FLAWED LOGIC. More specifically, you were using a false dichotomy. That means you excluded the middle ground, and are only considering two extremes. Is EVERY man a sinful, evil, bad creature? I don't think so (but if you DO think so, then I think the blame for the sinful horrible wretched creatures lies in the CREATOR of said humans...ie... if you honestly believe mankind is so seriously wrong, it's god's fault for making them so wrong. If god can do anything why didn't he make humans more in the middle, not full of sin, but not absent of it?). I think man can be good. Or bad. It depends on his choices. But I do NOT think a newborn baby is a sinner like most christians do. I think that's insane.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Nope, not at all.

As if everyone religious denies man has evolved. The Bible actually supports the fact that man has changed. Heck, God even claims he helped it along.

Yeah that's why the religious creationist people get along with evolution so well. Bhahahahahahahaahhaahahaa Zimphire, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. Ever.

God can make one in his own image, and have evolution still exist.

You realize, of course, that if you were a Christian 200 years ago other christians would probably kill you or call you a sinner and make your life miserable.

One doesn't negate each other.

... Yep. And you can believe that OJ is guilty and innocent at the same time, too!

It's just not believing. It has to come from the heart. It has to do with intentions and purpose. So a murderer could be a murderer believe in Jesus, and still go to hell.

Wow. That seems to make more sense. Unfortunately the church disagrees with you.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If you don't believe, why does it matter to you? BTW that isn't hypocrisy.

No one leads a perfect life. No one. No matter how many good deeds one does.
God cannot be in the presence of sin. Jesus died for us to cleans us of said sin.

Hey you're right. It wasn't hypocrisy. It was avoiding the question.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Kevin

We are ALL sinners. A sin is a sin is a sin.

In God's eyes a lie is a sin. In God's eyes a murder is a sin.

Being that is how it is (Biblically speaking) What seperates us?

Ignorance of reason.

Fixed.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

What? Now you're confusing me even more. I honestly don't understand what you mean or what you're talking about.

You spoke that I was talking absolutes. I was not. I was speaking within context of the Bible.

Make sense?

Originally Posted by bad_quote

When was I pro christian?

When did I say you were?

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Yeah that's why the religious creationist people get along with evolution so well. Bhahahahahahahaahhaahahaa Zimphire, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. Ever.

Rob, most Christians I know don't even care either way. Most will say it doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. Just because there are a few loud speakers against evolution doesn't mean all Christians give a hoot either way.

You realize, of course, that if you were a Christian 200 years ago other christians would probably kill you or call you a sinner and make your life miserable.

Uh 200 years ago the concept didn't exist.

... Yep. And you can believe that OJ is guilty and innocent at the same time, too!

Why did you even make said asinine comment? It ads nothing to the discussion.
Nor does it help your little rant.

Wow. That seems to make more sense. Unfortunately the church disagrees with you.

What Church is that? The Catholic church?

I'll repeat this again for you, knowing we have told you many times before, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT = CHRISTIANITY.

Will you please, this time, lodge that into your brain so no one has to repeat themselves again.

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Hey you're right. It wasn't hypocrisy. It was avoiding the question.

Who avoided the question?

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Fixed.

Naw, just old school Rob, still acting like a 16 year old boy going through puberty while on steroids.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You think man is not sinful? Then you think we can be sinless and therefore perfect?

No, there is no "perfect", therefor we're (as humans) are not "sinful" or "wrong" (in general). That's at least the way I see it.

[Kevin]

Lets take the word sinner out.

None of us are perfect. We all do things we shouldn't.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Warung

No, there is no "perfect", therefor we're (as humans) are not "sinful" or "wrong" (in general). That's at least the way I see it.

Could you clarify this statement please? I am confused in your use of "we're" and "are" directly after each other.

And if you don't like the use of the word "sin" then I can make it easier. We are not perfect. God is perfect. We are made righteous in our Christianity. We cannot fellowship with God if we are not righteous.

1John 1:9-10 9 If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we are without sin, we make Him out to be a liar and the truth is not in us.

[besson3c]

What I don't understand is why fervent Republicans don't see the hypocrisy in Bush's actions while claiming that he is a card carrying Christian that regularly bases decisions on sound moral judgement. It's just hard to buy...

I've heard Mojo2's thoughts on the matter, but I never even know where to begin unravelling his strange posts about how it was morally right to invade Iraq so that we can save a few bucks on oil (the central point of discussion in many of his posts), or that we'd literally die without Iraq's oil (i.e. Saudi Arabia and other oily countries don't exist, and therefore, they shouldn't have been invaded instead), although I can see what he says about this war being primarily about oil and not terrorism. I've also learned that it's best to not bother, but I am curious about whether he speaks for others?

Of course, oil is just one of many examples of things which can be discussed while putting the idea of Bush making Christian decisions under a microscope.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What I don't understand is why fervent Republicans don't see the hypocrisy in Bush's actions while claiming that he is a card carrying Christian that regularly bases decisions on sound moral judgement. It's just hard to buy...

I've heard Mojo2's thoughts on the matter, but I never even know where to begin unravelling his strange posts about how it was morally right to invade Iraq so that we can save a few bucks on oil (the central point of discussion in many of his posts), or that we'd literally die without Iraq's oil (i.e. Saudi Arabia and other oily countries don't exist, and therefore, they shouldn't have been invaded instead), although I can see what he says about this war being primarily about oil and not terrorism. I've also learned that it's best to not bother, but I am curious about whether he speaks for others?

Of course, oil is just one of many examples of things which can be discussed while putting the idea of Bush making Christian decisions under a microscope.

Google search for "train wreck" gave me this:


It somehow seemed fitting.

[Kevin]

Yeah... What does Bush have to do with this?

[noreturn]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What I don't understand is why fervent Republicans don't see the hypocrisy in Bush's actions while claiming that he is a card carrying Christian that regularly bases decisions on sound moral judgement. It's just hard to buy...

I've heard Mojo2's thoughts on the matter, but I never even know where to begin unravelling his strange posts about how it was morally right to invade Iraq so that we can save a few bucks on oil (the central point of discussion in many of his posts), or that we'd literally die without Iraq's oil (i.e. Saudi Arabia and other oily countries don't exist, and therefore, they shouldn't have been invaded instead), although I can see what he says about this war being primarily about oil and not terrorism. I've also learned that it's best to not bother, but I am curious about whether he speaks for others?

Of course, oil is just one of many examples of things which can be discussed while putting the idea of Bush making Christian decisions under a microscope.

Bush says he's a Christian, but that doesn't actually mean he is one.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by noreturn

Bush says he's a Christian, but that doesn't actually mean he is one.

Doesn't mean he is not either...

Some people have some deluded beliefe that Christians are perfect and never do wrong.

Some people's moral compass is also different from others.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Doesn't mean he is not either...

Some people have some deluded beliefe that Christians are perfect and never do wrong.

Some people's moral compass is also different from others.

Well, Christians also admit when they make mistakes because they are not perfect. Only God is perfect, right?

When has Bush made any sort of concession for error relating to the Iraq war?

[benign]

"What better reason to wear a Tee
Shirt than to let people know what
superstition has done in your life!
These Tee shirts are a great
testimony of the life changing power
of the stories of irrational belief."

[turtle777]

IBCR !

-t

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by turtle777

IBCR !

-t

This still makes me laugh. Thanks!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Railroader

This still makes me laugh. Thanks!

What else makes you laugh? Bob Saget? Funny robots?

Who do you think is the funniest Republican? I like that one with the blue tie.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What else makes you laugh? Bob Saget? Funny robots?

Who do you think is the funniest Republican? I like that one with the blue tie.

I like Tom Bergeron.

I don't find politics funny. I find them appaling for the most part.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I like Tom Bergeron.

I don't find politics funny. I find them appaling for the most part.

Really? I thought you were one of the "I heart Republicans" guys in there that are quick to jump to Bush's rescue when the mean kids in here call him names?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Really? I thought you were one of the "I heart Republicans" guys in there that are quick to jump to Bush's rescue when the mean kids in here call him names?

Well, this shows how well you can read people. Have you ever seen me do such a thing?

I think anyone blindly backing republicans is about as intelligent as anyone blindly backing democrats.

[Azzgunther]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Well, this shows how well you can read people. Have you ever seen me do such a thing?

I think anyone blindly backing republicans is about as intelligent as anyone blindly backing democrats.

Most americans toil here, in mental stagnation and blissful indifference

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Azzgunther

Most americans toil here, in mental stagnation and blissful indifference

Americans don't have a monopoly on **whatever you are talking about**.