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x user · Jun 2, 2002, 11:59 AM

Question todd. Is the Radion 8500 card the same size as your old card (I'd assume a Rage 128 pro.)

Todd Madson · Jun 2, 2002, 02:33 PM

The only reason I posted pictures is because of questions like the immediate preceeding:
no-one is really sure which Radeon 8500 cards work and which ones don't. I've heard
that LE cards don't work, but LELE cards do.

What you need (at least what I got) was the "full retail box", i.e. "pure article", also
listed on the side of the box as RADEON 8500 64M ATX VO VGA DVI ENG NTSC 100-431001.

The label on the side of the box indicates "Kit components manufactured in the
following countries: China and Canada".

This is what the box looks like if that helps anyone track one down:
<img src="http://pod.ath.cx/radeon.jpg" alt=" - " />

Last picture, I promise!

Todd Madson · Jun 2, 2002, 05:21 PM

It's actually larger. I wouldn't count on it fitting in a cube unless
you're a structural engineer with some ideas on how to make it fit.

If you look at the pictures above you can see the relative sizes since they both have ATI logos on them.

[ 06-04-2002, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Todd Madson ]

davidflas · 12:20 PM

Originally posted by x user:
Question todd. Is the Radion 8500 card the same size as your old card (I'd assume a Rage 128 pro.)

I just installed a Radeon 8500 DDR 64MB in place of my Rage 128. I pulled the old card out of my G4/466 and it is smaller than the Radeon 8500. By my measurements the Rage 128 is 6 1/2 inches by 3 1/4 inches. The Radeon 8500 is 6 7/8 inches by 3 7/8 inches. I don't know if all Rage 128's and Radeon 8500's are the same size, but they should be.

Below are two pictures showing the two cards next to each other:

x user · Jun 2, 2002, 09:26 PM

It's appearence seems that the 8500 would probably fit in a cube. Does anyone know if the heat would be an issue?

Todd Madson · Jun 3, 2002, 12:46 AM

Being that the Radeon has a fan, probably not to itself but what about the innards of the cube itself?
Convection cooling only goes so far I would surmise.

By the way, I did some graphic demos tonight to check out the speeds involved. I tried the Oni Demo
under OSX and it was significantly faster and smoother to play than the same program under the
Rage 128 Pro. Head spinningly so.

I went into OS9 and tried out the Altor Systems G4 Time Demo. On my old card I'd get 60-70 fps
and found that I wasn't getting nearly that with the new card. I was puzzled and found out that this
demo was optimized for the ATI Rage 128 Pro although I haven't tried every permutation of the
demo.

My old copy of Doom II was stupidly fast as I suspected it would be and my version of the old Atari
arcade favorite Tempest was plenty speedy. I died numerous times, heh.

More in a bit on the OSX side of things.

timster · Jun 3, 2002, 11:21 PM

Todd,

I had the same artifact problem with DVD player in OSX. I read in a different forum that someone fixed that problem by zapping the PRAM, so I tried that and it worked perfectly.

Give that a try.

tr · Jun 4, 2002, 12:04 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by timster:
Todd,

I had the same artifact problem with DVD player in OSX. I read in a different forum that someone fixed that problem by zapping the PRAM, so I tried that and it worked perfectly.

Give that a try.<hr /></blockquote>yeah, i think that was me. i originally had the DVD artifact problem, but after zapping the PRAM, it went away. after the zap, what was weird when i did it was that the ATI displays app in X then showed that the VRAM of my card was 32 MB, instead of 64 MB. booted into 9, still 32 MB. zapped PRAM again, booted into X, and it now it said 64 MB again.
don't know what happened there, but there's nothing wrong with zapping some PRAM

Todd Madson · Jun 4, 2002, 10:56 AM

Thanks for the suggestions, I think I'll try zapping the pram again
(I did it twice when I first installed the card).

The DVD hardware deinterlacing definetely wasn't working at that point
so I suspect this might correct it.

The actual card itself, now that things have calmed down a bit is quite
fast and definetely worth the money. Comparing it to default settings in
Ravebench the Radeon is pegged off the end of the scale for the most part.

I can't wait for the next major release of X, it ought to be interesting
to say the least.

timster · Jun 4, 2002, 12:32 PM

From my experiences with zapping PRAM.. just doing it once doesn't always do the trick.

When I go zap PRAM, i usually do it for like 3-5 cycles before I let up on the keys to make sure that everything is completely and thorougly ZAPPPPPED.

x user · Jun 4, 2002, 03:35 PM

At least three chimes...

Todd Madson · Jun 4, 2002, 07:37 PM

Weird. Zapping the pram four times seemed to do the trick. Hardware DVD deinterlacing works now.

[ 06-04-2002, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Todd Madson ]

SirCastor · Jun 4, 2002, 08:24 PM

I received my PC 8500 in the mail today. (Actually I came home for Lunch and it was here)
This is mostly a recap of Todd's post, but I'll post anyway for the sake of multiple successes.

My Mac is a G4/400 384mb RAM. 10.1.4

Received Retail box today. Barcode sticker reads identical to Todd's
"Radeon 8500 64M ATX VO VGA DVI ENG NTSC 100-431001"

I actually printed out Todd's post and used it as a directions sheet.
Having downloaded the Radeon ROM update from ATi previously, I booted into Mac OS 9 (mostly to make sure the system started up without any troubles)

I placed "RADEON 8500 Firmware UPDATE" into my startup items folder, and made sure the startup disk was set to my 9 partition.

I turned off my computer unplugged my monitor and then removed my old Ati 16mb Rage Pro. (Quadruple the VRAM

) I placed the Radeon into the AGP slot, and left the door open. Crossing my fingers I pressed the power button and let her roll.
Roughly five minutes later and not hearing any disk activity. I used the keyboard (Control-eject + return) to shut down.

Replugged in monitor, and started up. The monitor turns on and I am happy as can be. Then I return to work.

Back from work: Typing this message, just tried a DVD in X, it says "This machine configuration is not supported. The application will now quit" I haven't installed any drivers, so I don't blame it. I will update when I find out more.

UPDATE: Driver installation downloaded from the web was Flawless. DVD works just fine now, I'll try De-interlacing and such later. I will also see if I can dig up a spare monitor to test dual support. Also testing TV connect via s-video out..
-Aaron

[ 06-04-2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: SirCastor ]

gbvaughan · Jun 7, 2002, 02:06 PM

Just another follow up. I did have some issues. After successfully flashing the rom. Everything came up fine. However, I too had the compatible hardware message when I tried to run the DVD player. Unfortunately, I'd already installed the retail update ATI drivers.

Of note is the fact that I'd just upgraded to 10.1.5. The upgrade generated a kernal panic during the optimization. (Thanks to the Griffin Powermate preference panel). So I think things were hosed prior to moving to the Radeon. Reinstalling the upgrade made no difference.

I wiped the drive and reinstalled yesterday. Without the Powermate, I successfully upgraded to 10.1.5 and installed the retail update with no problems. DVD playback works.

I know. It was a pain, but I blame the kernal panic, not the Radeon.

Anyway, since this was a PC card, I don't have any of the mac utilites besides the display utililty. Does anyone know where I can secure a copy? In the hopes of the DVD player eventually outputing 5.1 sound, I'd like to go with the TV out options, just to see it. Any thoughts/help?

Thanks,
Ben

tr · Jun 8, 2002, 03:03 AM

i don't think there are any other utilities other than ATI Displays for X. you can still do video-out, you just have to plug a cable into the video-out port first. check out this <a href="http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/3812.html" target="_blank">page from the ATI site</a> explaining how to get video-out to work in X.

by the way, has anyone had any success running CVGS in 9 with an 8500, either flashed or mac edition? i posted this in the games forum, but got no replies. i tried it with my flashed card, with latest drivers and such, but the colors get all funky. it still runs, but the colors are really off. i was just wondering if this was an issue with all 8500's or if it just affected flashed cards. i'm sure there's someone out there who's tried this, right? anyone, anyone? yeah, i know, CVGS is pretty old, but it's one of the only reasons i boot into 9 (the other reason being ProTools

tr

mrchin · Jun 8, 2002, 01:23 PM

How much weaker is the LE card compared to the full retail card? I'd rather spend 149 over 300+. Is it just the lack of ports and such. Does it at least have a DVI connector?

SirCastor · Jun 8, 2002, 01:42 PM

Have any of you guys who have flashed the card been able to get TV out to work at all?
I don't have the panel showing up in the ATi Displays, so I'm not sure it's even there. I don't have a second monitor to try dual head support.

Elsewise everything is working fine for me.. I was a little concerned on the Oni Demo at certain points would studder, but I'm going to abandon that to my CPU for the moment.

-A

tr · Jun 8, 2002, 01:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SirCastor:
Have any of you guys who have flashed the card been able to get TV out to work at all?
I don't have the panel showing up in the ATi Displays, so I'm not sure it's even there. I don't have a second monitor to try dual head support.

Elsewise everything is working fine for me.. I was a little concerned on the Oni Demo at certain points would studder, but I'm going to abandon that to my CPU for the moment.

-A<hr /></blockquote>yeah, i got the tv-out to work. at first, i had problems, but got it all sorted out. check my link a couple posts up, it's an ati page that tells you how to get it working in X. there's also a page to get it working in 9, here's the <a href="http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/3495.html" target="_blank">link</a>

i also get the Oni demo stutter, but i had those problems with my old Rage 128, so i chalk it up to the demo.

tr

G4/500AGP · Jun 10, 2002, 09:54 PM

New work was found although my friend tried flashing with 8500-LE card.
When flashing was not completed in "8500 Firmware UPDATER" in the case of 8500-LE card
and "RADEON 8500 Firmware RESTORE" was used, there was a report that rewriting was completed.

Todd Madson · Jun 10, 2002, 10:55 PM

Weird. On my system the Oni thing is so fast and smooth it's almost unplayable.

As far as mr.chin asking about paying $149 vs. $300 - don't pay $149 for the LE version,
if you do you overpaid. I bought full retail on Ebay for $148 + $12 shipping.

Great card. And I'm stuck with it since I blew up my ATI Rage Pro last weekend helping a
friend build a PC. Easy come, easy go.

I want to try some of the video features but I only have an old Amiga monitor and an old RGB
color TV. Could be difficult...

SirCastor · Jun 11, 2002, 02:00 AM

Are you using the Oni Demo or the full version of Oni?
The demo is mostly smooth for me, just appears to be when I get up close to Konoko... I think anyway..
Also, I am having no luck getting video out to work on either 9 or X.. I'll keep trying...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd Madson:
Weird. On my system the Oni thing is so fast and smooth it's almost unplayable.

As far as mr.chin asking about paying $149 vs. $300 - don't pay $149 for the LE version,
if you do you overpaid. I bought full retail on Ebay for $148 + $12 shipping.

Great card. And I'm stuck with it since I blew up my ATI Rage Pro last weekend helping a
friend build a PC. Easy come, easy go.

I want to try some of the video features but I only have an old Amiga monitor and an old RGB
color TV. Could be difficult...<hr /></blockquote>

Todd Madson · Jun 11, 2002, 10:11 AM

It's actually the demo that the Omni folks put out a while back.

SirCastor · Jun 11, 2002, 10:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Todd Madson:
It's actually the demo that the Omni folks put out a while back.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm.. I think that the app I'm using is the original Carbon Demo that Bungie (Or Gathering of Developers) put out when Oni first was introduced... I'm under the impression that Omni released a Cocoa version (but the full game was required..)

Dan Szwarc · Jun 15, 2002, 10:55 AM

OK, so has anyone put together a step-by-step list of what is needed to successfully flash a PC Radeon 8500 (non-LE) for successfull full-operation?

And have we figured out which version is the most likely one to work (since I think the 128MB version is a crap-shoot for success)?

Looks like we'll be updating my wife's G4-400 Rage Pro!

Todd Madson · Jun 16, 2002, 03:06 PM

(1) Obtain 64 MB Radeon Full Retail Box (box is marked on side with "Radeon 8500 64M ATX VO VGA DVI ENG NTSC 100-431001")

(2) Download the drivers here: <a href="http://ati.com/support/drivers/mac/ati-radeon8500-mac-rom-126.html" target="_blank">http://ati.com/support/drivers/mac/ati-radeon8500-mac-rom-126.html</a>

(3) Decompress the RADEON8500-ROM-126.sit. Folder.

(4) Place the file marked "RADEON 8500 Firmware UPDATE" in your OS9 Startup Items folder.

(5) Go to your control panels folder and select your OS9 partition as your startup drive.

(6) Shut the machine down.

(7) Remove the ATI Rage 128 Pro card.

(8) Install the ATI Radeon 8500 card.

(9) Close the side panel and start up the computer.

(10) Wait until your drive stops spinning (no more than 5 minutes unless you have a billion extensions).
The machine is now flashing the card for you.

(11) Reboot the machine after you're sure the hard drive activity has stopped.

(12) Upon rebooting, the machine should then produce video.

(13) Go to the ATI site and download in the Mac drivers area the March 2002 ATI Retail Update.

(14) Decompress these items. They will install the ATI items for your card to use its various features.

(15) You can now boot into OSX as well.

(16) Enjoy your Radeon 8500!

mrchin · Jun 16, 2002, 07:07 PM

Why not go for the 128MB card? Will it be compatible as well?

Also, I'd probably make sure I'm already booted into 9 then shutdown. Instead of changing startup disk in X. You may get a not shutdown properly which will result in repairs and extended time to boot.

timster · Jun 17, 2002, 10:33 AM

If you read the forums over at xlr8yourmac, you'll see that the 128MB version is less of a sure-fire thing than the 64MB retail.

There are only two versions of the 128.. the LE and the standard 8500. People have reported mixed (mostly bad) results with the LE, and the standard 128mb card is just as expensive as the Mac version. I dont know how the success rate is for that.

The poster earlier was asking for the SAFEST, SUREST way to get a PC radeon 8500 in the mac. From all the discussion here and at xlr8yourmac forums, the safest way you can do this is to get the discontinued 64mb version of the 8500. I havent heard of anyone having problems with this version. My upgrade went perfectly.

If you like living dangerously, try the 128MB and let us know!

-tim

Todd Madson · Jun 17, 2002, 04:15 PM

I've heard that the colors aren't right with the 8500 128 MB - go to
the forums at xlr8yourmac.com and there was a thread about it for quite
a while. Ultimately the cards had to be returned since they were useless.

mrchin · Jun 17, 2002, 08:17 PM

128 retail for $174 at buy.com

mr.sector · Jun 18, 2002, 04:34 AM

My little flashing howto maybe useful to someone:
<a href="http://http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?s=253a9e565fd949671d8c9b34c4c9081c& threadid=18944" target="_blank">My little flashing howto</a>

mr.sector · Jun 18, 2002, 04:58 AM

Oops wrong URL above sorry, here is the right one:
<a href="http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?s=253a9e565fd949671d8c9b34c4c9081c& threadid=18944" target="_blank">Little howto</a>

G4/500AGP · Jun 18, 2002, 12:03 PM

Since RADEON7500 cards(Apple OEM) were stuck in QuickSilver2002(800MHz) opportunity which I bought,
I think that Mac BIOS will be extracted from this card.
It does not know whether it is flashable with the card for PC-RADEON7500 card.

Ignis Fatuus · Jun 18, 2002, 05:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by G4/500AGP:
Since RADEON7500 cards(Apple OEM) were stuck in QuickSilver2002(800MHz) opportunity which I bought,
I think that Mac BIOS will be extracted from this card.
It does not know whether it is flashable with the card for PC-RADEON7500 card.<hr /></blockquote>I believe this can be done on a PC with the command:

flashrom -s 0 filename.rom 128

0 is the AGP slot, 128 is the KBytes to save. Then flash a PC card with:

flashrom -pm 0 filename.rom

I've done this with 2 different Radeon 8500, and that worked fine, and I don't see why this won't work with 7500, provided they are identical.

Ignis Fatuus · Jun 18, 2002, 05:35 PM

For those who are brave enough (wants to over clock), or out of luck (can't get the card to run @ 250/275), you can change the clock speed on the ATI Firmeware Update with Resedit.
Look for RMDT, and the open the BIOS file.
At location 00208C-E is the GPU clock HEX(03D090) DEC(250000)
At location 002094-6 is memory clock HEX(043238) DEC(275000)

Change to what ever you like. I set a retail card to 290/290, and an OEM to 250/250. Save the file. Run it. Then reboot. Your Radeon 8500 will be running at the new clock.
You can find more info here:
<a href="http://www.macbidouille.com/article.php?id=75&page=5" target="_blank">http://www.macbidouille.com/article.php?id=75&page=5</a>
Disregard the part were it says to change 61A8 & 6B6C. I didn't do that and my card still worked fine. Reading on the PC side, I don't believe the clock info is stored in multiple places in the BIOS.

Chuck3d · Jun 19, 2002, 05:32 PM

Has anyone tried flashing a retail card using the 3.6v 275/275? Having read sooooooo many posts between here and xlr8.com and others, it's becoming a blur. My question comes out of fear that the ATI flash is geared for a 250/250 and something might not work there. Anyone?

Thanks, Chuck

Ignis Fatuus · Jun 19, 2002, 07:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chuck3d:
Has anyone tried flashing a retail card using the 3.6v 275/275? Having read sooooooo many posts between here and xlr8.com and others, it's becoming a blur. My question comes out of fear that the ATI flash is geared for a 250/250 and something might not work there. Anyone?

Thanks, Chuck<hr /></blockquote>The retail PC Radeon 8500 are 275/275 (GPU/Memory). Retail Mac Radeon 8500 are 250/275 (GPU/Memory). OEM varies, most are 230/230, 250/250, and 250/275. Since I can now adjust the ATI firmware to the default clock of my Radeon 8500, I have no worry about frying it, atleast I haven't yet. My suggestion is, modify a ATI firmware first to your card's default clocks so you won't fry it (If you don't have a PC). Or if you have a PC, try some overclocking utilities for the Radeon 8500, and see what the maximum clock you can get out of the card. If it goes over 250/275, you should have no worries, else, make sure you down clock the ATI firmware before you flash, or you could kiss that card goodbye.

Chuck3d · Jun 20, 2002, 10:21 AM

Let me see if I get this right (hah!). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

OC Systems has an overclocked card at 295/295 with added cooling systems. Let's just say I bought one of those (about $170).

Could I simply run the Firmware Updater in OS 9 and be done with that? I downloaded the step by step stuff yesterday that deals with res-edit and all that, but really I would rather simply plop that baby in and go. Buying the right retail card and ensuring the right part no. are enough hoops for me to jump through (in addition to scouring these posts 3 times over).

Thanks!

Todd Madson · Jun 20, 2002, 03:33 PM

I don't see the point of overclocking one of these cards unless you
have a hideously processor intensive graphics applications.

Some of my benchmarks are saying I'm getting 225 frames per second
on my AGP Radeon 8500 64 MEG full retail version for PC on my Mac G4/400.

Chuck3d · Jun 20, 2002, 04:05 PM

OK, great. Im not much of a gamer, but InDesign needs the redraw speed the most. I saw no appreciable improvement with 10.1.5 and maybe my rage pro driver isnt loading right (another thing that should be automatic), but for $125 I wont complain as soon as I roll my own video card.

I do all my 3d on the PC, and I just roll my eyes at the lethargy of Apple to get off its ars with Open GL and lower pricing. I look around and see the effort here by everyone to create a fast card at PC prices and think it wouldnt have to be that way if if if if, oh scrap the rant.

This is a terribly helpful thread.

Chuck3d · Jun 20, 2002, 04:14 PM

Are these varying labels like PowerColor Evil Master II all the same? As long as its a 250 core, retail box at about $125 on up, shouldnt that guide our shopping?

Ignis Fatuus · Jun 22, 2002, 05:58 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chuck3d:
Are these varying labels like PowerColor Evil Master II all the same? As long as its a 250 core, retail box at about $125 on up, shouldnt that guide our shopping?<hr /></blockquote>Well, I happen to have both a retail Radeon 8500 64MB and a PowerColor Evil Master II 64MB (250Mhz/250Mhz). There is a difference. If you look at the picture above, there is a small square chip right on the left hand side of the GPU fan. It's missing on the PowerColor, and I would assume on some other OEM cards as well. According to some people, it's only used for multi display of TV-out and DVI/VGA. I don't use multi display on my Mac, nor do I use the TV-out, so it really don't matter to me. But the card is running just fine, with the modified BIO (down clocked to 250/250).

Dan Szwarc · Jun 24, 2002, 04:56 PM

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[ 06-25-2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Dan Szwarc ]

davidflas · Jun 24, 2002, 05:54 PM

I just installed the ATI June 2002 update and my flashed Radeon 8500 still works as well as it did before. Hope that helps you, Dan.

I'm using the card in a G4/466 with 896MB of ram and running 10.1.5. You probably already know that since I've posted a few times before in this thread.

[ 06-24-2002, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: davidflas ]

macrider · Jun 24, 2002, 11:24 PM

anyone try to do the same thing to 7000 card?

macrider · Jun 24, 2002, 11:24 PM

anyone try to do the same thing to 7000 card?

SirCastor · Jun 24, 2002, 11:29 PM

I have also installed the June update on my flashed Radeon. No problems. Keep in mind though, this is not a ROM update. It's a driver update. It doesn't actually do anything to the card, it just updates how the card interacts with the OS.

-A

Dan Szwarc · Jun 25, 2002, 05:32 PM

Oops. My bad. I thought it was another rom update. It isn't. just drivers. I've been following this thread and downloading the files and instructions as we learn what's going on. The whole time, I never had the ROM updater.

Boy, would that suck when I went to install the card!

Now I have it.

my7200 · Jun 26, 2002, 06:12 AM

frankly I don't have time to read the 2million hits this thread has, but has any one tried to flash a 128Mb Radeon8500?... forget that 64Mb crap, textures reside in memory, thats where the speed comes from... no usage of system mem to accomodate large textures, which means no page flipping in programming terms...

And if anyone has done it, was it the LE version... I don't think forking out double the price for some extra crap is required I think US$399 (Extras) to $US189 (LE)... I JUST NEED FAST 2D/3D stuff, and none of that TV output s_h_i_t!... If I want video editing, I'll get myself a dedicated card!

cheers

timster · Jun 26, 2002, 02:30 PM

frankly, i dont have time to repeat the information that lies within this thread that'll answer your question. go read the thread and the one at xlr8yourmac and you'll find out. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

-tim

cdrgonzo20 · Jun 26, 2002, 06:04 PM

Just found 64mb Radeon 8500 PC AGP for 94 bucks on ubid! Should be arriving in 2 days! With the apple DVI-ADC converter thats still 50 bucks cheaper than the mac edition, which you still require the converter for, so its actually 200 cheaper!