[Salty]

OK, so I know we have one or two members here who both read some more "liberal theology". I'm wondering if one wanted to look up the more intelligent ones who deal with the idea of gay sex being sin or not, and what not, what names I should be looking for. I've obviously read typically more conservative scholars on the subject, so I'm looking for the good names on the subject. Rather have good intellectual stuff instead of just trying to look around since so much crap is written by both sides.

[smacintush]

Well, I feel for you.

Haven't you ever questioned the value of a religion in which the Lord himself gives the potentiality of being a certain way (such as homosexuality), and yet leaves you being punished…or at least the fear of being punished…for all eternity for merely following your God-given instincts?

Seriously, no disrespect intended, have you ever really looked into non-Christian religions or ideas with an open mind? (I mean, aside from the typical Christian style of studying other religions in order to learn their "weird" ideas so as to better discredit them.)

You may be surprised at what you'll find.

[Doofy]

Right, so here we go with the trying to justify bumsex to yourself, no?

I thought it wouldn't be long.

[Salty]

You all read too much into everything.

[darth-vader000]

Sounds like your trying to justify your lifestyle. I don't think the Bible can used to support both sides an argument.

It can either be silent on a given subject - are SUVs evil?
pro subject - Love thy neighbor
Con subject - theft is wrong.

On the subject of homosexuality, it is not silent, so you need to ask yourself is it pro or against. The old testiment is pretty specific in Leviticus about it being wrong. The book of Romans, 1 Corinthians also support this matter.

I'm not trying to sound harsh but lets give up the pretense. You want to justify an active homosexual lifestyle from a Chrisitan theology perspective and you know what you will. I don't think arguing how these passages are misunderstood or they were written in a different era and we are more enlightened now then back then.

You will be able to find people who will dispute the passages relating to homosexuality and say what you want to hear. My opinion is that I don't think you can start ignoring pieces of the Bible, that is start throwing things out of the Bible that you don't agree with. Either you believe it as the wholly inspired word of God or its a collection of stories to be moral.

If want to start engaging in relationships then do so, but don't look towards the Bible to justify your actions.

[Kevin]

*sigh* here we go again.

[Mastrap]

If you choose to believe that the bible is indeed the word of God then you're outta luck. If you believe that large parts of the bible are little more than rules and regulations written and added on to the original by the politicians of the time then you can probably ignore the parts you disagree with.

Check out Karen Armstrong's excellent A History of God.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

*sigh* here we go again.

Paging SWG to the lounge. Paging SWG to the lounge.

[Kevin]

These are really things he needs to be talking about to some he knows. Not internet forums.

I honestly think sometimes he does this because he isn't getting enough attention.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by Salty

You all read too much into everything.

You're the most screwed up person I don't know. Seriously.

I'm straight as an arrow and all, but I do live in a very gay friendly neck-of-the-woods. I've always worked with gay people, had gay friends, etc. If ANY gay person I know read your ramblings, I'd imagine them saying you're a wimp. Grow some balls and stop asking so many "sorta gay" thought-provoking questions...

GO BE a Pro Gay Theologian. Be the 1st one. or the 17th one. whatever..

You didn't even come out of the closet, you kinda just stick your fingers out of the horizontal slats in the closet door from time to time.

Weak.

Amen.

[Doofy]

Salty, the Bible makes it quite, quite clear that when you have bumsex, God is going "Eww. Eww eww eww eww eww".

So you have a choice: Have bumsex and piss God off, or don't have bumsex and don't piss God off. It's real clear - anyone giving you a different angle on that is simply making excuses to excuse their own lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Kevin

These are really things he needs to be talking about to some he knows. Not internet forums.

I honestly think sometimes he does this because he isn't getting enough attention.

Narh. What I guess is actually happening is that all the folks he knows in real life aren't telling him what he wants to hear.

Originally Posted by Icy

GO BE a Pro Gay Theologian. Be the 1st one. or the 17th one. whatever..

Concur. Do what you want Salty - but just don't try to justify whatever you do within religious contexts.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

Sounds like your trying to justify your lifestyle. I don't think the Bible can used to support both sides an argument.

It can either be silent on a given subject - are SUVs evil?
pro subject - Love thy neighbor
Con subject - theft is wrong.

On the subject of homosexuality, it is not silent, so you need to ask yourself is it pro or against. The old testiment is pretty specific in Leviticus about it being wrong. The book of Romans, 1 Corinthians also support this matter.

I'm not trying to sound harsh but lets give up the pretense. You want to justify an active homosexual lifestyle from a Chrisitan theology perspective and you know what you will. I don't think arguing how these passages are misunderstood or they were written in a different era and we are more enlightened now then back then.

You will be able to find people who will dispute the passages relating to homosexuality and say what you want to hear. My opinion is that I don't think you can start ignoring pieces of the Bible, that is start throwing things out of the Bible that you don't agree with. Either you believe it as the wholly inspired word of God or its a collection of stories to be moral.

If want to start engaging in relationships then do so, but don't look towards the Bible to justify your actions.

Yes, the part of Leviticus that prohibit homosexuality do exist and they are pretty clear about it. However, you're saying he is trying to justify a homosexual lifestyle by ignoring them. Yet there are many parts of Leviticus that almost all Christians ignore such as the prohibition against wearing clothes made from two kinds of cloth or being clean shaven. Have you read Leviticus outside of the gay part? I doubt it, and I doubt that you aren't ignoring very large passages yourself. Therefore, you shouldn't be criticizing someone else who does so. In any case, the reason BOTH of you ignore certain archaic sections is because large parts of the Bible are completely irrelevant to modern times.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Paging SWG to the lounge. Paging SWG to the lounge.

Trust me even I am tried of superchickens gay conflicts. At least I keep mine to the PL also.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Salty, the Bible makes it quite, quite clear that when you have bumsex, God is going "Eww. Eww eww eww eww eww".

So you have a choice: Have bumsex and piss God off, or don't have bumsex and don't piss God off. It's real clear - anyone giving you a different angle on that is simply making excuses to excuse their own lifestyle.

The same is of course true for so many other things we do on a daily basis, from the food we eat to the clothes we wear that God in all likelihood will have far bigger things to go 'ewww' about than bumsex.

[darth-vader000]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

. Have you read Leviticus outside of the gay part? I doubt it, and I doubt that you aren't ignoring very large passages yourself.

Yes I have, and that is also why I referenced the New testiment. As for the rituals and the sacrifises its stated in the New Testiment that those practices are done away with because of Jesus' sacrifise on the cross. There is no need to to have first fruits offering now, or a sin offering. You need to take what is written in context and typically in the Bible a given subject matter is backed up with other passages, so the OT and the NT is consistent on this specific message.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

The same is of course true for so many other things we do on a daily basis, from the food we eat to the clothes we wear that God in all likelihood will have far bigger things to go 'ewww' about than bumsex.

I somewhat agree. Somewhat, because I don't think there's actually a numbered list - it's bulleted.

IMHO, what seems to piss God off most of all is impurity (which bumsex would be included in). He designed us in a certain way which was pure (as alluded to by Genesis) yet we've corrupted it. You know how when you design a CSS web site and it's perfect in every way until you load it in IE for Win? Same kind of reason for being pissed off at something, I guess.

For example, I don't think God minds us looking at hot naked chicks and thinking "wow, she's hot, I'd like to have a walk on the beach with her" but does mind us looking and thinking "wow, wouldn't mind putting nipple clamps on her then dragging her around the kitchen".

[Kerrigan]

I believe the Extreme Leader XENU permits gay sex as long as you pretend to be straight.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I somewhat agree. Somewhat, because I don't think there's actually a numbered list - it's bulleted.

I dunno. Think Enron. I suspect that the 'ewww' factor of robbing countless people of their savings for personal gain is higher than two consenting adults expressing their love in a physical manner.

But then, what do I know - I don't believe in the God of the Bible myself, nor do I take the Bible as the actual word of God.

[darth-vader000]

I think I agree with doofy, not sure the way he's written his post.

We (Christians) get all get so worked up on this one subject matter. Saying its sin and its wrong etc, but how many of us take a pen from work. That's stealing and its a sin - we are just as much of a sinner but we make these distinctions that I don't think God does.

I think its wrong to justify a sinful lifestyle regardless of what the lifestlye is.

I like Mastrap's post and I really think it hits the nail on the head
"If you choose to believe that the bible is indeed the word of God then you're outta luck."

Also Kevin has a excellent point where this particular question is better asked with friends/family/counslers and not on the internet.

To that end,I think its a twisted attempt to garner attention.

[iranfromthezoo]

Here's a thought....a sin is a sin...A gay person can become a Christian and I believe that with all my heart. They must first reject their sin though. The Bible says why should we go on sinning after we have recieved the truth? So a gay person or anyone for that matter can become a Christian and expierence God's grace and forgiveness BUT you can't go on willingfully sinning. Homosexuality maybe someone's thorn in their side, while porn may be someone elses, while acholholism (spelling?) is someone else. Here's the deal Jesus was different because He know's the heart, God judges by the heart, we humans blow up the small stuff and make it big stuff. Living a good life doesn't constitute your going to heaven...Geniuenly (sp again) loving God and having a real relationship with Him is what He wants....He wants your heart more than your actions.

I hope that made sense. In no way am I agreeing with the homosexual lifestyle but I think we put so much focus on the outside that we forget it's the sins inside that ruin us like pride, arrogance, or anything of that nature...If I speak in a thousand languages but don't have love what am I worth? Love is above everything.

Yes there is a balance with God justice also...He is full of grace but full of wrath at the same time. explain that; can't. But God is a just God He's not going to let people in to heaven because He just wants to be mean but He can't go back on His word...He can't renig. But He is also loving tender and compassionate...

Sorry for the long response.

[Dakar]

Rationalize it all you want, have your own interpretation, whatever. Its the trying to sell whatever your point of view is on this forum that gets old. Whether you think its right or wrong.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo

Here's a thought...

Words of wisdom. You can donate all of your cash to charity, if it is not given without hidden motives, the gesture means nothing at all.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

I think I agree with doofy, not sure the way he's written his post.

I reckon we agree.

[Millennium]

Oh, great; this again...

Look, people. All Salty wanted was some references. He wasn't looking to have the whole debate played out in this thread. John Boswell comes to mind; he believes that various Christian religions endorsed gay marriage as recently as the 18th century. He claims there's an icon which depicts Jesus overseeing such a marriage, in fact.

[Landos Mustache]

I find it funny that you guys actually picture a God that sits up there watching for men and woman who are having anal sex and being sad about it? How does he find out? Does he get an email and then forward it to the gates of heaven so they reject entry to heaven?

It is so ridiculous to even imagine this is the biggest thing on a omnipotent being that chooses to ignore horrible every second of the day buy his "Children" and planet is actually sitting somewhere fussing over anal sex.

[Chuckmcd]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I dunno. Think Enron. I suspect that the 'ewww' factor of robbing countless people of their savings for personal gain is higher than two consenting adults expressing their love in a physical manner.

But then, what do I know - I don't believe in the God of the Bible myself, nor do I take the Bible as the actual word of God.

The idea of a bigger "ewww" factor is something we've constructed. Though i don't totally agree with the previous post about admiring the physical form vs. perverting it... I think the basic idea ia is true. Any corruption of the purity God seeks makes it wrong. The New Testament definition of "sin" isn't the doing something wrong, or not doing something right, but the idea of missing the mark... failing to measure up to God's holiness (or purity if you will).

Even when you look at the parts of the OT code that were kept in the NT.. it's the stuff about personal holiness that remained, not the things that had to do with cleanliness (menstration laws, clothing, etc) and ritual (sacrifice and such).

How this applies to salty... It really doesn't matter what your hang ups are. Maybe you like stealing pink underwear from sears, maybe you find puppies attractive... Idk... but your personal desires, just as my personal desires, have nothing to do with what I decide I will do in my life. There are times I don't want to be a good dad, I want to just check out and take the day off.... but I don't, because it would be the wrong choice. THere are other issues I have that I don't always do such a great job on. missing the mark, is missing the mark... sin is sin. Struggle with it, or sucomb to it... your choice, just don't try to justify it, and I'll do my best to not justify mine.

[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

I think its wrong to justify a sinful lifestyle regardless of what the lifestlye is.

At what point does something become a lifestyle?

[Dakar]

When you use something to define a person.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Look, people. All Salty wanted was some references.

Has he not got Google on that there Internet of his?

He knew full well that a discussion of this nature would break out if he asked the question on MacNN. And if he didn't, well, he hasn't been paying attention.

[iranfromthezoo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo
Here's a thought...


Words of wisdom. You can donate all of your cash to charity, if it is not given without hidden motives, the gesture means nothing at all.


what does that mean? Believe me I really didn't try to sound holier-than-thou and really did not mean to come across that way. I am sorry if I did and I apologize and really did not want to get into a debate or anything like that. I guess sometimes you can really just take something and basically put it out of the orignal context. I aplogize Mastrap or anyone else if I came across that way.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo

what does that mean? Believe me I really didn't try to sound holier-than-thou and really did not mean to come across that way. I am sorry if I did and I apologize and really did not want to get into a debate or anything like that. I guess sometimes you can really just take something and basically put it out of the orignal context. I aplogize Mastrap or anyone else if I came across that way.

I thought your post made good sense.
(Yes SWG, I entered the gay thread.)

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo

what does that mean? Believe me I really didn't try to sound holier-than-thou and really did not mean to come across that way. I am sorry if I did and I apologize and really did not want to get into a debate or anything like that. I guess sometimes you can really just take something and basically put it out of the orignal context. I aplogize Mastrap or anyone else if I came across that way.

Dude, don't worry. Mas was agreeing with you. He probably should have used "one" instead of "you" in the bit about giving money away but hey, ain't none of us got proper grammar around here.

[iranfromthezoo]

haha sorry...im from mississippi so that can be my claim to fame...im a noob to the forums anyways too...I thought he was directing it at me but now I see the light and yes it's bright and yes it's a train...

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

(Yes SWG, I entered the gay thread.)

Big friggin' surprise

[davesimondotcom]

Salty - become a greek philosopher.










ooh, I made a double-entendre!

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Do what you want Salty - but just don't try to justify whatever you do within religious contexts.

So many worse things have been justified within religious contexts; I think gay sex would be a rather refreshing addition.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo

what does that mean? Believe me I really didn't try to sound holier-than-thou and really did not mean to come across that way. I am sorry if I did and I apologize and really did not want to get into a debate or anything like that. I guess sometimes you can really just take something and basically put it out of the orignal context. I aplogize Mastrap or anyone else if I came across that way.

Dude, I was agreeing with you. I was also having breakfast, which meant I wasn't entirely concentrating on my typing. So, sorry if my post came across wrong.

[iranfromthezoo]

yeah man sorry I misread it haha but its all good in the hood...

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

So many worse things have been justified within religious contexts; I think gay sex would be a rather refreshing addition.

Which horrible things has true Christianity justified?

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Which horrible things has true Christianity justified?

"True Christianity," as something a human can grasp, is oxymoronic.

People have used various religions to justify plenty of terrible things.

[Uriel]

Salty,

Although I have not read any pro-gay sex theologians, perhaps you should look into some of the opinions Anglican Bishops and other clergy. I don't know if he takes a stance on it but the the Bishop of Durham, N.T. Wright has been very helpful and clear on other issues, perhaps he has some material that could help you.

I'll do some looking also, I do some decently liberal theology reading, I'd say it's more middle ground. However I have no problem doing some research and getting back with you.

Also, Salty, Tony Campolo offered a very refreshing perspective on gay christians in a book titled "Adventures in Missing the Point". It's definetly not pro-gay, however you might find it intriguing.

[Mithras]

It's about Jews, not Christians, but if you haven't seen the wonderful documentary Trembling Before G-d, I highly, highly recommend it. It goes into great detail about the theological and personal struggles of Orthodox Jews who are gay.

[iREZ]

boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring

[Uriel]

"True Christianity," as something a human can grasp, is oxymoronic.

People have used various religions to justify plenty of terrible things.

Sadly, you are very correct. Religions, including Christianity has been used to justify man terrible things.

However, I also feel that religions have done a lot of good in people's lives, be that buddism, islam or Christainity.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

People have used various religions to justify plenty of terrible things.

...often in direct violation of the teachings of those religions. Is it truly fair to judge a religion by the actions of its hypocrites?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

I find it funny that you guys actually picture a God that sits up there watching for men and woman who are having anal sex and being sad about it? How does he find out? Does he get an email and then forward it to the gates of heaven so they reject entry to heaven?

It is so ridiculous to even imagine this is the biggest thing on a omnipotent being that chooses to ignore horrible every second of the day buy his "Children" and planet is actually sitting somewhere fussing over anal sex.

[greenamp]

It's Evolution Baby!

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I really don't think that post counts as hating. Not saying he doesn't lay it on, but I don't think that post is an example of it.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Millennium

...often in direct violation of the teachings of those religions. Is it truly fair to judge a religion by the actions of its hypocrites?

Of course not, but who here's judging the religion? I'm judging the people that abuse religion.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What's a Christan?