According to the specs on Apples product pages, the SuperDrive writes only video to DVD-R disks, and lets you archive data on CD-R/RW media. Is this right?

What limitation prevents users from archiving data to DVD-R? I would like to move away from CD-Rs which are no longer large enough to archive an entire project.

I at least hope this is a temporary software limitation and not one mandated by idiot copy-protection restrictions.

[ajprice]

The new G4 733's DVD-R/CD-R Superdrive does only record DVD video for viewing on DVD computers and DVD players. If you want a DVD-RAM drive to archive data from your computer you will have to get an old spec G4 500 or dual processor 500, or get an external DVD-RAM drive. Hope this helps!

That is fine and well for DVD-RAM drives, but I wouldn't be able to read them in a plain DVD-ROM drive.

Plus compared to Apple's price on DVD-R media (about $12 ea.) DVD-RAM at 4.7 GB is hard to find under $25. As I am doing archives, I prefer the use of write-once disks.

What I am looking for is a reason as to WHY the SuperDrive may be incapable of writing data DVD-Rs.


Thanks in advance,
Chris

[jbell]

Originally posted by ajprice:
If you want a DVD-RAM drive to archive data from your computer you will have to get an old spec G4 500 or dual processor 500, or get an external DVD-RAM drive. Hope this helps!

Or get an internal DVD-RAM drive like the one used on the old spec G4/450 or G4/500.

Because of the storage capacity limitation on the CD-R and the inability to archive data on the DVD-R, this means that DVD-RAM is not dead as far as being a storage archiving device. However, according to AppleStore, Apple is not providing DVD-RAM as a BTO option. I wonder if this is an oversight on Apple's part? Or, maybe they don't want to expose the device limitations on the DVD-R/CD-R. It is ironic that Apple continues to provide the ZIP drive as a BTO option when the CD-R would suffice but not enough compared to DVD-RAM.

[Castor]

I am getting a bit confused here, you want to be able to play a disc in a consumer level dvd player, while you want to archive files instead of video on the discs? Huh? DVD players on HFS+ ?

[jlb]

This exact discussion came up today on a private (higher education institution) Mac list I am on. A trustworthy Apple Education engineer/rep stated that Apple's SuperDrive (Pioneer DVR-103) CAN write (or "burn") DVD-R discs. The constraint right now is that Apple is not providing software to support that aspect of the drive (i.e. Disc Burner is for CD-R/RW only). The engineer said to expect something along the lines of a Toast for DVD in the very near future.

-jlb

[snodman]

The DVD-R media will have to drop quite a bit in price to be useful as a backup or data storage medium. You can buy a 50 stack of 12x 80 min (700 meg) CDR media for $7.50 these days.

Thanks, JLB, that was actually the type of answer I was looking for!

As far as everyone else recommending archiving to DVD-RAM (too expensive, limited playback options), or sticking with CD-Rs (too small for my shop in many ways!) It is almost just as well I archive to redundant DLT tapes.


Thanks all!
C.

[MikeM32]

That is fine and well for DVD-RAM drives, but I wouldn't be able to read them in a plain DVD-ROM drive.

Actually there are two variations of DVD-RAM, single and double sided media. The Double-Sided media cannot be used in anything else but a DVD-RAM drive, however the single sided can be used in a regular DVD-ROM drive.

Both "flavors" use a cartridge to record in (which resembles a giant floppy disk). The single sided media can be removed from this cartridge and used in any DVD-ROM. I believe the last DVD-RAM drives Apple offerred had a 9.4 GB Capacity for Double sided media and a 4.7 GB Capacity for single sided media (Same Capacity as the SuperDrive DVD-R disks).

I'm also uncertain about write-time for data on a DVD-R drive, I can only speculate from what Jobs said at this past expo about how long it would take to burn video that it might be WORSE then DVD-RAM. I've clocked my workplace server G4/500 at about 1 GB per hr on a single side of the older 4.7 GB Double Sided media (Pre Mac World NYC 2000). The higher capacity DVD-RAM drives must be running at about 2 GB per hr based on that.

I'm actually quite surprised if one cannot use the SuperDrive for Data as-well since video is essentially data. Older CD-R "burners" also worked on strictly Data with some software, so I can't see why DVD-R would be "exempt" from that sort of use. I'd research it first before going "head-first" however. As mentionned above maybe we'll see a DVD-R version of "Toast" or something.

You could also look into High Capacity Tape storage, but I've had lots of problems myself with the media, the drives, nevermind the general price-range of a DLT drive. I always tell people to avoid Tapes to be honest. The DVD-RAM drive itself might run ya anywhere from $500-$700, and the disks are about $20-$30 each, cheaper in bulk (as always). I'd take DVD-RAM over tapes any-day myself.

Even cheaper still, you could consider using external hard drives for back-up. More and more businesses and professionals are leaning away from removable media back-ups nowadays. You could get a large capacity external firewire drive and add other drives to it as-needed. All of them could be removed and exchanged with other Firewire capable systems. If Firewire isn't fast enough, add a SCSI card to your Mac and get External SCSI drives.

Hope that helps

Mike


[This message has been edited by MikeM32 (edited 01-31-2001).]

[dtriska]

It doesn't mention what software it will use but it does say you can "backup [a] large data volume with 4.7 GB storage capacity" so I'm assuming there will be a Toast for DVD-R (or similar product) come April, when this unit is supposed to ship.
http://www.all4dvd.com/products/DVDRec.htm

Quote from ROXIO website

Available this Spring, Toast 5 Titanium will be the most powerful CD mastering software for Macintosh ever created.

Toast 5 Titanium boasts a totally new user interface specifically designed for use on Mac OS X, the ability to burn CDs in the background, automated MPEG encoding for burning iMovies onto VideoCDs for playback in most DVD players, and support for most DVD-RAM and DVD-R/RW drives.
http://www.roxio.com/en/products/toast/toast5.html

Hope this helps!

[daydreamer]

Toast ruleZ again!

[mikaelf]

I had a nice phone conversation with all4DVD regarding their Firewire SuperDrive (USD 990), it will be boundled with Toast 5 and that it will probably support DVD-RW (yes, the Pioneer drive support DVD-RW according to all4DVD).

Have now ordered my own DVD recorder and hope to get it in April/May.

Mikael Fredriksson
Gothenburg, Sweden

[pcurtner]

DVD-RAM is slooooowww! Forget about using it for Retrospect-type backups.

BUT, with no special software, you can write to a Type II 2.6 GB DVD-RAM cartridge, which is then readable in any DVD-ROM drive. Type I DVD-RAMs are not removable from their cartridge and will only work in DVD-RAM drives.

Note that if it is at all possible to even write a DVD-RAM Type II disc as a DVD-Video, Apple doesn't support it and (of course) has never clarified the issue.

-pwc

quote:Actually there are two variations of DVD-RAM, single and double sided media. The Double-Sided media cannot be used in anything else but a DVD-RAM drive, however the single sided can be used in a regular DVD-ROM drive.

The newest DVD RAM disk (9.4GB dbl sided) is removable and readable by DVD readers. The catch is, there are several generations of DVD readers and only the newest generation reads the 4.7GB/side disks.

Also, if anyone has tried to order the newest DVD RAM 9.4GB dblsided removable media, they know it is a very long wait. Still waiting.....

[2far]

Originally posted by pcurtner:
DVD-RAM is slooooowww! Forget about using it for Retrospect-type backups.

Actually, being so slow is exactly the reason that I use it ONLY for Retrospect-type backups ... which works well, BTW.

I wonder if the drive used by Apple, referred to as DVR-103, is the same drive described on Pioneer's web page <http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/Industrial/IndustrialProductDetails/0,1444,30~3010~3010100~1718,00.html?> as DVD Recordable Drive DVR-A03, with the following characteristics:

Write Support

4X and 8X CD-R
4X CD-RW
1X and 2X DVD-R (General Use)

Read Support (maximum speeds to be determined)
DVD-ROM & DVD-Video (single & dual layers)
DVD-R, CD-ROM Mode1
CD-ROM XA Mode2 (form 1, form 2)
Photo CD (single & multiple sessions)
CD-DA
CD-R
CD-RW

Toast 5 Titanium may support writing Data to DVD-R. It's release date is set to late spring.

First, could someone (perhaps the original poster, Chris Golding) post the URL for "According to the specs on Apples product pages..." where this alleged limitation exists? (It's probably a software-only limitation, if true, and then probably only temporary --i.e. DiscBurner 1.0.)

Read on to hear about the SuperDrive's DVD-RW (re-write!) capability (below)

I suggest everyone first examine a replay of Steve Job's MWSF keynote (www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf01/). At 34:56 into the presentation, where he's showing the 4-box matrix of CD-RW, DVD-R, etc., he then says that the SuperDrive does write data to DVDs. He then puts a slide up that says the SuperDrive does all of these things: CD: read/write data and audio, DVD: read/write data and video.

Also, on January 5, CNet posted the following article:
"Apple, Compaq adding recordable DVD drives" by Joe Wilcox
(current URL: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-4384495.html)
that said something (almost at the end of the article) even more exciting:

quoting Andy Parsons, Pioneer's vice president of product development, stating that the drive (Pioneer's DVR-A03/103) will soon support DVD-RW (that's read, write AND re-write data, folks...) "Pioneer initially will ship the drives with DVD recording capability but not rerecording. After a February meeting of the industry body known as the DVD Forum, which will finalize DVD-RW standards issues, Pioneer plans to release a software update enabling DVD rerecording."

[GreenMnM]

Originally posted by Dew:
Toast 5 Titanium may support writing Data to DVD-R. It's release date is set to late spring.

The Roxio Rep I talked to at Macworld last month said that Toast 5 would be fully carbonized and run on Mac OS X. They're waiting for the final release of Mac OS X to do final testing. So expect it soon after March 24th!

-Doug

[RDJL27]

I found something interesting. The new firewire version of the SuperDrive (at: http://www.all4DVD.com/products/DVDRec.htm )
states this:
"* Long awaited, affordable recording solution for DVD Video!
* Burn your own DVDs that can be played on a consumer DVD player or on your DVD equipped PC
* Use video for your presentations
* Multifunctional: Write DVDs and CDs with one drive
* Backup large data volume with 4.7 GB storage capacity (seven times more than CD-R/RW)"
Well that means it CAN write data DVDs, and DVD-R can be a data solution. Unless what I say is proven wrong (that happens a lot ).


[This message has been edited by RDJL27 (edited 02-06-2001).]

[snodman]

Seven times more dense than CDR-RW (actually less than 6 if you use 800 meg CDR media) but 10 times more expensive per meg than CDR media. This is not a great backup device. Burn movies with it.

convenience is the key word. why split a file across multiple cds when you can put it on one dvd. back up your whole system folder (with all the extra bits that you simply *have* to have) on a single disc.

it may seem pricey now, but look at things like jaz cartridges.

[schalliol]

Whew! For a minute there I was about to cancel my 733 order. It sounds like we'll be able to write data to the disc for backup (only way it makes any sense to me, DVD-Video is just data too). A bonus may happen and be able to use DVD-RW. That would be nice.

[CMinChrist]

A lot of people did not seem to understand the question. DVDs can be used for many things just like CDs could. Some of you seem to have it in mind that a DVD is only for movies which comes from the fact that 99% of all DVDs are for movies just like 99% of CDs were for audio when they came out. The difference is that when CDs came out there was now way to distribute large amounts of data to any consumer except for floppies. The CD became very popular. Since we have CDs, only a handful of companies are shipping products that need the space of a DVD, so the data DVD has not really taken off.

A movie DVD is no different than a Video CD except that there are devices that are designed to only read DVDs in the movie format and there are several formats, not just the MPEG2/AC3 which is the current standard. E.g. Some DVDs might use MPEG2 for video and audio.

There is no logical reason why DVDs could not be used for data just like a CD and I could not imagine how the drive would know the difference between writing video and plain data. While iDVD may not have many options, I would imagine that the Studio Pro would not be limited to MPEG2/AC3 data, so the DVD would have to recognize all Video/Audio standards that might be used in DVDs.

I think the limitation is the software. Apple may be getting in to burning CDs, but they have not released software like Toast or Describe, only packet writing software like Direct CD and it may be a while before packet writing software will be available for DVD-Rs. So if Apple is only making packet writing software and does not plan to support packet writing to DVD-Rs, it stand to reason why Apple would say it does not support writing data DVDs.

[q3ded]

You know, there is just Toast DVD as well. It shipped with the old Astarte DVD Director package. It works fine for me sending data or video to a DVD.

Then again, the Astarte guys wrote the original Toast.

[krove]

Originally posted by snodman:
The DVD-R media will have to drop quite a bit in price to be useful as a backup or data storage medium. You can buy a 50 stack of 12x 80 min (700 meg) CDR media for $7.50 these days.

Yeah, and I bet every other one fails. Must be those awful stacks from CompUSA with no lables. I have a couple friends who bought those thinking "Wow, really cheap. Cool." They sucked...

krove

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