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Obama, Gay Marriage, Original Sin, Founding Fathers, Catholics, and Pearls (Page 15)
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Waragainstsleep
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Jul 11, 2012, 04:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Okay, but I was responding to what you said. You said they tend to "think less of atheists". That's not true. Granted, sane people may be concerned about atheists that express themselves as you and others have in this forum, but that's just sanity and reason at work.
I get the impression that theists have more respect for other (different) theists than they do for atheists. Some of that comes from the media, the internet, anecdotally and from people on this forum. I could be wrong of course, I know how much you love us atheists.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You don't make it look very easy. You used the word widespread. It's just not. The fact that your eyes are moving to and fro looking for pink, polka-dotted sweaters has you seeing a lot of pink, polka-dotted sweaters. This doesn't mean they're widespread, it means you have a peculiar hangup with them.
The behaviors you're decrying were not even widespread enough to get stickers in textbooks that had nothing to do with God or Jesus or any Biblical tenet.
I didn't think I had used the word 'widespread' other than to say "by normal, I don't mean widespread" but if I did, then it must have been as a relative term. In this day and age the fact that anyone who can read and has access to a public library or the internet and still thinks that the world is 6000 years old means that point of view is more widespread than it should be. A bit like murder is still more widespread than it should be.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Your fears are by definition; irrational, phobic. The academic disciplines in which the US struggles most to compete simply do not correlate to the prevailing creed of the country. I've already cited a common failure in the teaching of science through zealotry of another kind and the fact that you breezed right on through with nary a mention only reaffirms to me that scholastic integrity is the least of your concerns here.
So because the US as a whole isn't struggling with science, its ok to f**k with it? Yes, lets undermine the things you are supposed to be good at instead of fixing the things which aren't.
I'm sorry, but I don't have time to read back over this thread right now, which "common failure in the teaching of science through zealotry" did you cite again?


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Right, because of course piss-Christ is a lot more profound and "fun" than any religious work of antiquity.
I don't like all art, no reason you should like it all either. Doesn't give anyone the right to ban it. I guess freedom of expression doesn't matter as much as freedom of speech?

If a tree with a naked girl strapped to it falls in the forest and there are no conservatives around to be offended by the sight of her, is it still controversial?


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Again, the academic disciplines in which the US struggles most are only falling farther behind while the systems responsible increasingly divorce themselves of God and religion. Shall I attribute this failure to godlessness and conclude that the systemic ineptitude is directly tied to atheist philosophy?
I'm sure you'd like to.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
The state of our education is no laughing matter. With zealots of another kind trying to bastardize curriculum, we may eventually need to reconsider means of reminding students to critically analyze what they're being taught. i.e. they didn't start it. "Creationists" are no more capable of manipulating students than atheists.
You say manipulate, I say teach. Just don't teach them crap. Unless you tell them that its crap and why its crap.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 11, 2012, 04:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
we may eventually need to reconsider means of reminding students to critically analyze what they're being taught. i.e. they didn't start it.
I couldn't agree more. My parents raised me exactly that way; to critically analyze what I was being taught. Therefore, they were caught off guard and upset when I turned that critical analysis lens onto the Christian faith they had raised me in and decided that it wasn't for me.
     
subego
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Jul 11, 2012, 04:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I get the impression that theists have more respect for other (different) theists than they do for atheists. Some of that comes from the media, the internet, anecdotally and from people on this forum. I could be wrong of course, I know how much you love us atheists.
Is this lack of respect, or a concern for your soul?

This is a dead serious question.


I see very few atheists engage religious people with the stance of "this person I'm talking to believes I have a soul".
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 11, 2012, 05:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is this lack of respect, or a concern for your soul?
This is a dead serious question.
I see very few atheists engage religious people with the stance of "this person I'm talking to believes I have a soul".
From the perspective of a believer, are not *all* people of other beliefs putting their souls at risk? Therefore, wouldn't *all* people of other beliefs receive the same degree of respect/lack-thereof/"concern for your soul"?
     
subego
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Jul 11, 2012, 05:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
From the perspective of a believer, are not *all* people of other beliefs putting their souls at risk? Therefore, wouldn't *all* people of other beliefs receive the same degree of respect/lack-thereof/"concern for your soul"?
Are you talking Catholics and Protestants, Catholics and Jews, or Catholics and pagans?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 11, 2012, 05:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is this lack of respect, or a concern for your soul?
This is a dead serious question.
I see very few atheists engage religious people with the stance of "this person I'm talking to believes I have a soul".
Again, its a second hand impression I get for the most part but it seems like a lack of respect to me. At least thats how it manifests. I think its more complex than that. I think if an atheist is debating a Rabbi, an Imam and a Priest, then those three will tent to gang up a bit. Its logical because the atheists arguments and objections for the most part will apply to all of them at once. With regular believers, I'd guess its that lack of comprehension/belief that someone can go through life and not believe in a god without throwing themselves under a bus or whatever it is.

Its like that ep of Family Guy where Bryan reveals he is an atheist and everyone turns on him. Its obviously grossly exaggerated but I somehow imagine that if an atheist were to move to a nice suburban neighbourhood where they'd get invited to join in everything but then the invitations would dry up when people discovered their atheism. It won't apply everywhere but does any of that sound realistic?

Some religious people must approach atheists with some soul saving intention but actually a lot of the behaviour you see towards atheists seems to contradict that. My understanding is that a christian should (for lack of a better word) pity an atheists lack of faith or as ebuddy suggests see them as a challenge, but instead of turning the other cheek and going down one of those roads they seem much more likely to get defensive, aggressive or dismissive.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
sek929
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Jul 11, 2012, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
If the question is, do you want cost controls on health insurance to save you money and government/employer subsidies to pay an increasing share of your premium so you'll pay less? The answer will invariably be - yes! Have the Massachusetts health care measures helped control costs of health care? No and there is every indication that the provisions are unsustainable long-term. If all you wanted in Massachusetts was health care insurance reform, you got it. If all you wanted was a piece of paper claiming you have coverage for your overwhelming majority, white-bred populace, you now have it. Congrats. Except... as Massachusetts' reforms attract many more of the 20% of uninsureds nationwide comprised mostly of non-citizens, we'll see how long this experiment will hold out. But make no mistake, health care reform in Massachusetts is an experiment that few if any believe has any real chance of success at a nationwide level. Of course, the number of uninsureds began @ 7%, then dropped to 2.5% and is now back up to 3% assuming people aren't shirking their penalties having found means of claiming coverage they don't have.
sek929; do you have any information to substantiate the explosive growth in medical and tech sectors?
Here's an excerpt from your AG (A Democratic admin) on the trends in rising health care costs in Massachusetts; The median annual premium for family plans jumped 10% from 2007 to 2009 to $14,300. For small businesses, the increase was 12%. In 2006, the state spent around $1 billion on Medicaid, subsidies for medium-to-lower earners, and other health-care programs. Today, the figure is $1.75 billion. The federal government absorbed half of the increase. The report essentially concludes that there is no way of controlling health care costs in Massachusetts. So... should I take your gleaming examples of success in Massachusetts as a great big friggin' thanks to the US taxpayer? Yeah, you're welcome. In Massachusetts, a family earning $33,000 pays no premium at all under Commonwealth Care. But if their pay goes to $46,000, they're obligated to contribute about $2,400. That's an effective tax rate of 18.5% on that $13,000 raise. A pay increase of $44,000 to $46,000 is mostly erased by higher premiums alone. I'd like to see what long-term affect this will have on stagnant wages and unemployment in Massachusetts. Considering of course the fact that the State has nowhere near the same socioeconomic demographics as the rest of the country.
As to the rest of your post; sure... gay marriage allows gays to get married. Congrats on thread relevance as the sound derailing by your atheist ilk is what diverted the entire discussion into the abyss of phobia and stupidity to begin with.
Teaching evolution is fine as long as you don't have a bunch of dumbasses running around talking about embryonic gill slits. After all, any interest in the "scientific method" would have to acknowledge the fact that this bs was debunked in the early 1900s. i.e. there are zealots and morons on all sides of the world view spectrum with their textbook stickers and evo-zealous dogmas. Your focus on "teaching evolution" is asinine. As if there is some creationism at play in the table of elements or any other scientific discipline. BTW, we'd do well to look at our performance in Math as well which of course has zero to do with the religious influence.
So... your welcome for subsidizing your health care and congrats on the gay marriage thing.
Well the new forums makes my head hurt as how to itemize what you said and my responses to it, so I apologize for the lack of that coherence.

First off, I appreciate your reply, and state unequivocally that I am in no position to debate down to the nail about health care. In earnest. This shit makes my head spin. I make no claims that government run health care is better than this or that option because truthfully I have no ****ing idea. What I do know, however, is that health care should never be out of the reach of those with even the most modest income in the 'wealthiest' nation on Earth. I also believe that if the 'free market' was the only thing controlling health care then we are truly screwed.

Secondly, my mother relies on Medicare as she is limited to a wheelchair and can barely talk or see. A wheelchair, mind you, that would have cost SEVEN THOUSAND dollars without Medicare. I could buy a very nice car for that much money, so where in hell does a cushioned chair with wheels end up costing that much? So when I hear the Conservative base rally about doing away with Medicare and Medicaid without a peep about those who actually need it to, you know, survive I do indeed get very irked.

Thirdly, about the subsidization of Healthcare by the taxpayer, what exactly is the problem here? The government subsidizes the richest companies on Earth (oil) to the tune of 200 billion or so every year, the government subsidized failed banks to the tune of nearly a Trillion dollars, even Barack's own Illinois receives huge subsidies for worthless Ethanol. Why, then, is subsidizing the Health and Wellbeing of all of our fellow Americans some insurmountable obstacle when we throw away hundreds of billions of dollars at efforts and companies that don't even need them?

Four... okay enough with that...I am no atheist, and I would appreciate if you did not make such wild assumptions on that matter in the future, nor do I have an 'ilk' in the political forums, which is exactly the reason I was passively banned from posting here. Please do not, also, divert the point I made. My state has allowed gay marriage for six ****ing years and somehow regular churches appear to be surviving this horrible situation. To claim the opposite of equality on this issue has, literally, no merit whatsoever. In fact, if anyone could come up with a single compelling reason that isn't a link about some other country or another diversion I would LOVE to see it.

If we want to talk about Math I could also bring up how Massachusetts schools hold up in Math proficiency against top countries in the world, not just the USA. My point, however poorly made, was that creationism, anti-intellectualism, and anti-public schooling rhetoric is entirely bankrupt. Massachusetts is undeniable proof that a properly funded educational system, pushed incredibly hard by Deval Patrick (tax it all Deval as some clever bumper stickers would point out) actually works.

Finally I would like to reiterate my appreciation of your civil tone in this matter, and nothing I have said is meant to demean or otherwise belittle you or any other fine, and very smart, posters on these boards. Like I said before, health care is absurdly complex, and I know very little past the fact that everyone in this country deserves access to top-notch healthcare without having to worry as how they can afford to keep themselves healthy.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 11, 2012, 12:35 PM
 
That is a very good point about the price of a wheel chair. It applies to even less complex devices like crutches too.

Hello customer, I gather you'd like to buy a box of paper clips to help you organise your paper work. You can take a box of 1000 paper clips home for only $3.99. Oh these are for your office at work? You'll want business grade paper clips, those are $9.99 a box. Unless you are a government employee? Government issue paperclips are $29.99 a box. You work in a government hospital? Medical grade paper clips are $159.99 a box. A surgeon's office? Surgical grade paper clips are $299.99 a box.

This seems to be roughly how it works.

BTW, those are only compatible with our surgical grade paper....
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
sek929
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Jul 11, 2012, 02:24 PM
 
Another similar situation is wedding planning. Don't know this firsthand, but all my married friends tell me stories.

"Oh you need a DJ, for 4 hours? Okay that's 300 dollars.....wait, did you say it's for a wedding? Ummm yeah, that's going to be 800 dollars instead."

It's price gouging a captive buyer and it's despicable. That's what happens when the almighty profit is your only god.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 11, 2012, 05:12 PM
 
Good job you can't have a business wedding in a hospital.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OldManMac  (op)
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Jul 11, 2012, 07:07 PM
 
Halleluja! Another bible lover gets it!

http://www.advocate.com/politics/equality-allies/2012/07/11/former-jacksonville-mayor-john-delaney-comes-out-support-gay
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
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Jul 11, 2012, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I really don't see the correlation with religion and learning outside of history and sciences. The most educated people in this world have religious backgrounds for some and non for others. The one place I can see religion actually affecting education is unqualified people who have no business being a teacher or running a school getting the job because of religious background over a qualified non religious person. That would have a direct effect.
Social economics is the largest factor followed by political and cultural factors which affects education the most. Religions fame to claim is the ability to justify almost any horrible act against another human being.
What don't you see? How can you claim political and cultural factors do have an effect on eduction, yet argue religion does not? If someone is religious, doesn't that largely shape their beliefs and values, and thus their political and cultural views? Of course it does.

We are talking about socio-economics factors, so we need to talk about limited-resources and opportunity cost.

Atheist don't spend hours a week at Church, Sunday School, or reading the Bible. They have that time to read a book, study for school, or learn some computer programming.

There is an opportunity cost to being a Christian.
There is an opportunity cost to being an Athlete.

An athlete who spends most of his time with sports and money on sports related equipment isn't going to do well with education as a person who spending most of his time and money that is school/education related.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 11, 2012, 07:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Again, its a second hand impression I get for the most part but it seems like a lack of respect to me. At least thats how it manifests. I think its more complex than that. I think if an atheist is debating a Rabbi, an Imam and a Priest, then those three will tent to gang up a bit. Its logical because the atheists arguments and objections for the most part will apply to all of them at once. With regular believers, I'd guess its that lack of comprehension/belief that someone can go through life and not believe in a god without throwing themselves under a bus or whatever it is.
Its like that ep of Family Guy where Bryan reveals he is an atheist and everyone turns on him. Its obviously grossly exaggerated but I somehow imagine that if an atheist were to move to a nice suburban neighbourhood where they'd get invited to join in everything but then the invitations would dry up when people discovered their atheism. It won't apply everywhere but does any of that sound realistic?
Some religious people must approach atheists with some soul saving intention but actually a lot of the behaviour you see towards atheists seems to contradict that. My understanding is that a christian should (for lack of a better word) pity an atheists lack of faith or as ebuddy suggests see them as a challenge, but instead of turning the other cheek and going down one of those roads they seem much more likely to get defensive, aggressive or dismissive.
I think, to some degree, there is more fear of losing members of your faith to atheism than to any other faith. As a result, that fear may manifest as defensiveness.
     
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Jul 12, 2012, 03:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
We are talking about socio-economics factors, so we need to talk about limited-resources and opportunity cost.

Atheist don't spend hours a week at Church, Sunday School, or reading the Bible. They have that time to read a book, study for school, or learn some computer programming.
...or jerk off...or watch TV....

(Obviously limited resources and opportunity cost come into play. But there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest, at least in my lifetime of being around highly religious people, that people who do not attend religious instutions are somehow more efficient with their time. In fact, the two most efficient people I know - and I work in a profession that is absolutely built on efficiency - attend their local religious institutions on a weekly basis.)
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
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Jul 12, 2012, 05:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
We are talking about socio-economics factors, so we need to talk about limited-resources and opportunity cost.

Atheist don't spend hours a week at Church, Sunday School, or reading the Bible. They have that time to read a book, study for school, or learn some computer programming.
...or jerk off...or watch TV....

(Obviously limited resources and opportunity cost come into play. But there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest, at least in my lifetime of being around highly religious people, that people who do not attend religious instutions are somehow more efficient with their time. In fact, the two most efficient people I know - and I work in a profession that is absolutely built on efficiency - attend their local religious institutions on a weekly basis.)


The same opportunity cost would indict people with a family, however that type of person is generally a better worker, because the "cost" actually makes them a fulfilled, focused, motivated, dedicated, happy, stable personality, traits which improve the quality of their work.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 12, 2012, 07:21 AM
 
I gotta say, the new forum format really hinders my desire to read/post here, but I can't nail down why.

Also, this thread is all over the place. Somehow we're on healthcare?
     
Chongo
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Jul 12, 2012, 07:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post

The same opportunity cost would indict people with a family, however that type of person is generally a better worker, because the "cost" actually makes them a fulfilled, focused, motivated, dedicated, happy, stable personality, traits which improve the quality of their work.
Kurt Warner and Sandy Kofax, are just two examples.
45/47
     
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Jul 12, 2012, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I gotta say, the new forum format really hinders my desire to read/post here, but I can't nail down why.
Also, this thread is all over the place. Somehow we're on healthcare?
It's a good thread, gay marriage does have elements with religion and religion plays a roll in education, not to mention the founding fathers view on religion which goes back to gay marriage.

I hate the new format so much for these reasons
forums.macnn.com used to take me to the damn forms not a page where i had to click on Forums (thats a extra step)
Posts that I am in used to start off on the first unread post, I didn't have to click a button to take me to unread posts

Back to the thread of Obama, Gay Marriage, Sin, Founding Fathers, and Religion oh my.
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Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
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Jul 13, 2012, 03:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
First off, I appreciate your reply, and state unequivocally that I am in no position to debate down to the nail about health care.  In earnest.  This shit makes my head spin.  I make no claims that government run health care is better than this or that option because truthfully I have no ****ing idea.  What I do know, however, is that health care should never be out of the reach of those with even the most modest income in the 'wealthiest' nation on Earth.  I also believe that if the 'free market' was the only thing controlling health care then we are truly screwed.
I appreciate your reply sek929 and you were very fair with me. My only desire with issues like this is to cut through the emotionally-charged rhetoric akin to people lying face-down in the gutter without health care and then before I know it I'm getting heavy-handed at the keyboard. Thanks again for your patience.

Without going into too much detail, I've learned from having lived below poverty level that if you don't have health care in the US, you're not trying. This is not a program or policy problem, it's a people problem. You've got millions of children, right now today eligible for Medicaid yet remain unenrolled. I'm a huge proponent of safety nets for those who need them as there is no free-market panacea for those who cannot participate, but many more can participate than are. This is the problem. If all of our efforts were in fact focused only on those who truly needed the help over trying to create a new dependency class, there would be no true needy in this country. The problem is so much of our entitlement is doled out to those who don't need it that it becomes an expectation; what others refer to as the moral hazard of increased dependency on the government for this provision and that. This mentality is monetarily unsustainable and we see it in virtually every arena for which the government has assumed a greater role. At some point you try to raise the retirement age two years to avoid bankruptcy and people take to the streets in riot gear. Or if you decry the fact that more is spent per student in the US education system than any other top 5 OECD nations combined yet rank below 20th among them in math and science, you're "attacking" teachers or wishing ill on the children. It just gets old and tired. The fact is the government already manages more than half the health care in the US and for folks to suggest anyone is proposing "leaving it to the free market" at this point in the game is essentially 30 years behind in their thinking. This nation is not as wealthy as it is by taxing success as if it were cigarettes and alcohol.

Secondly, my mother relies on Medicare as she is limited to a wheelchair and can barely talk or see.  A wheelchair, mind you, that would have cost SEVEN THOUSAND dollars without Medicare.  I could buy a very nice car for that much money, so where in hell does a cushioned chair with wheels end up costing that much?  So when I hear the Conservative base rally about doing away with Medicare and Medicaid without a peep about those who actually need it to, you know, survive I do indeed get very irked.
I'm sorry to hear about your mother's challenge, but I have to take issue with a couple of things here. First of all, the average cost of an ergonomic, high-end, non-powered wheelchair is $500. They range anywhere from $100 to $1200. This may sound steep until you realize that a failing wheel or arm becomes fodder for hundreds of thousands in court. Notwithstanding that this and many other provisions can be purchased used. Imagine if everyone needing a wheelchair looked to a broad market of used wheelchairs essentially cutting new out of the equation. Do you suppose at some point a manufacturer wishing to sell a wheelchair may have to come down on cost? This didn't happen with your mother and it's generally not the case across the board. With copays and deductibles, I'm guessing your mother paid somewhere between $50-100 for this $7,000.00 wheelchair which means she didn't aggressively shop for a better deal. The manufacturer didn't have to rely on competing, all it had to do was make itself available to the government at "cost". Wink-nod. At $7,000.00, it sounds like what your mother has is a power-scooter or the like. Without trying to sound cold, is that my responsibility? To ensure that your relatives not only have suitable provisions, but the cadillac-version of each provision? Again, $7,000. is not the cost of a standard, high-end, non-powered wheelchair.

Secondly, I'm privy to a wealth of conservative ideologues and I must tell you that no one, I repeat no one has advocated the outright elimination of these programs without some semblance of a plan to care for those who truly need it. Not even the most staunch, cigar-chomping Republican fat-cat has advocated the neglect of care of any kind for those who truly need it, elderly, sick, and poor alike. This is one of those emotional platitudes that absolutely drives me crazy. They may decry what the programs have become, their insolvency, their continued distortion of the marketplace, and the result of increased dependency among those otherwise capable of caring for themselves while solving only symptoms of problems leaving the root cause to grow, but these are principles we learned from our first reading of the Little Red Hen in elementary school. Somehow as adults we must caste off these sound examples of logic and complicate things for political expediency, emotional pull, and activism.

Thirdly, about the subsidization of Healthcare by the taxpayer, what exactly is the problem here?  The government subsidizes the richest companies on Earth (oil) to the tune of 200 billion or so every year, the government subsidized failed banks to the tune of nearly a Trillion dollars, even Barack's own Illinois receives huge subsidies for worthless Ethanol.  Why, then, is subsidizing the Health and Wellbeing of all of our fellow Americans some insurmountable obstacle when we throw away hundreds of billions of dollars at efforts and companies that don't even need them?
I'm for eliminating unnecessary welfare of all types, including tax loopholes and subsidies for this company or that. This is something I've been railing on for years. The more you want your government to do, the more beholden it becomes to Big Corporation. It cannot meet the increasing demands of the entitlement mentality collective without choosing among existing providers and creating winners and losers that will help them distribute the requested provisions to the dependent bloc of voters who will ensure their proponents remain in power. The problem is, when you take a purchase-decision out of health care, you distort the free market. You cannot say this is a failure of the free market when the market is anything, but free. We have to start thinking with our heads and not just our hearts. At some point, you have to remove the training wheels and let go of the bicycle for your daughter to learn to ride. I don't see the solution to government subsidies being more government subsidies. It's okay to oppose them all as long as we can get a representative to actually respond to our sentiment. The problem is, as entitlement grows so grows the entitlement mentality and their vote will invariably go towards the candidate offering the most free candy.

Four... okay enough with that...I am no atheist, and I would appreciate if you did not make such wild assumptions on that matter in the future, nor do I have an 'ilk' in the political forums, which is exactly the reason I was passively banned from posting here.  Please do not, also, divert the point I made.  My state has allowed gay marriage for six ****ing years and somehow regular churches appear to be surviving this horrible situation.  To claim the opposite of equality on this issue has, literally, no merit whatsoever.  In fact, if anyone could come up with a single compelling reason that isn't a link about some other country or another diversion I would LOVE to see it.
I apologize for the assumption sek, honestly. I thought I had recalled you being an atheist or in the least, agnostic. Again, I'm sorry for the leap. I'm not sure where the whole "churches won't survive" argument came from as I'm not sure too many are advocating that churches be forced to marry gay people and while that may be a concern to some, I'm not as much concerned about this potentiality.

If we want to talk about Math I could also bring up how Massachusetts schools hold up in Math proficiency against top countries in the world, not just the USA.
Again, this speaks more to the demographic composition of Massachusetts compared to the US than it is a testament to the quality of $13k per student in your state.

My point, however poorly made, was that creationism, anti-intellectualism, and anti-public schooling rhetoric is entirely bankrupt.  Massachusetts is undeniable proof that a properly funded educational system, pushed incredibly hard by Deval Patrick (tax it all Deval as some clever bumper stickers would point out) actually works.
I don't think Massachusetts' academic success is tied to anything a single representative has done and IMO, these results mirror many of the same racially/economically homogenous situations you see elsewhere not only in the US, but abroad. Our education system has done nothing, but increasingly divorce itself from gods and religions and yet our achievement continues to do nothing, but decline. IMO, this is a non-issue, a non-concern; useful only for the value of a meaningless platitude.

Like I said before, health care is absurdly complex, and I know very little past the fact that everyone in this country deserves access to top-notch healthcare without having to worry as how they can afford to keep themselves healthy.
Giving people free health care does zero for whether or not people will keep themselves healthy. While health care has only become increasingly "accessible", we have greater wealth disparity than ever before, greater obesity, and greater health care expenditures. IMO, the government does not exist to eliminate worry and having been one of "those" who couldn't afford a downpayment on a glass of orange juice, I never once went without health care. That's just the truth.
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subego
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Jul 13, 2012, 05:14 AM
 
Please forgive me guys. On the new site with the micro-font I see those walls of text and die a little inside.
     
Athens
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Jul 13, 2012, 09:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post

Giving people free health care does zero for whether or not people will keep themselves healthy. While health care has only become increasingly "accessible", we have greater wealth disparity than ever before, greater obesity, and greater health care expenditures. IMO, the government does not exist to eliminate worry and having been one of "those" who couldn't afford a downpayment on a glass of orange juice, I never once went without health care. That's just the truth.
I wanted to touch on this part of your reply about people keeping themselves healthy. A large problem with people being unhealthy comes from the massive changes in our food over the last 40 years. In stead of trying to explain it I am just going to post a blog post about Food as a commercial product instead and hope you read it. A large part of our increasing medical costs could be in fact a side effect of the political interference to protect the food industry and the industrialization of food that is leading to the health problems we are seeing on mass. The costs to health care are directly related to it.

http://thespartandiet.blogspot.ca/2011/04/what-is-industrial-food-and-why-is-it.html
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Wiskedjak
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Jul 13, 2012, 02:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Giving people free health care does zero for whether or not people will keep themselves healthy. While health care has only become increasingly "accessible", we have greater wealth disparity than ever before, greater obesity, and greater health care expenditures. IMO, the government does not exist to eliminate worry and having been one of "those" who couldn't afford a downpayment on a glass of orange juice, I never once went without health care. That's just the truth.
Are you suggesting all health issues are preventable? I'd be OK if preventable health issues (obesity, smoking-caused cancer) were not covered by universal health care.
     
ebuddy
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Jul 13, 2012, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I wanted to touch on this part of your reply about people keeping themselves healthy. A large problem with people being unhealthy comes from the massive changes in our food over the last 40 years. In stead of trying to explain it I am just going to post a blog post about Food as a commercial product instead and hope you read it. A large part of our increasing medical costs could be in fact a side effect of the political interference to protect the food industry and the industrialization of food that is leading to the health problems we are seeing on mass. The costs to health care are directly related to it.
http://thespartandiet.blogspot.ca/2011/04/what-is-industrial-food-and-why-is-it.html
This is what happens when Big Government and Big Corporation bed down. WIthout government, Big Corporation has to succeed strictly on its own merits, but for this special interest or that, government begins selecting pets/winners and distorts the market. i.e. without visiting links right now, I'm guessing it includes the manipulation of agriculture.

Ultimately, there are only one of two ways progress could be argued. Either you entrust more to people individually or more to a centralized authority. Naturally, I believe the former. I believe it's the most organic model and aligns most effectively with human nature. The more government assumes, the less people assume. We essentially retard our strengths. I grant you, this requires a great deal of trust and faith in people, but I've long maintained that the days of Upton Sinclair have come and gone. We have so much information at our fingertips from which to make educated decisions on our consumption, but we're busy watching someone hum flight of the bumblebees with mashed potatoes in their mouth on You Tube. Or bickering at one another here. IMO, the more that is expected of us, the better off we'll be.

You cannot always count on altruism 'tis true, but you can bet people are going to protect and grow their assets. You can't do this without employees and you can't do this without customers. You can't do this with abusive practices that drive whistleblowers to the media, but you won't get many to say anything when they're waiting on a wink-nod oversight authority to step in.

Thread relevance! : With so many gays in need of important legislation to support them, why on earth is my President decrying the outsourcing of jobs from private capital while outsourcing jobs on the taxpayer's capital?!? I think he's losing his noodle.
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Jul 13, 2012, 04:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Are you suggesting all health issues are preventable? I'd be OK if preventable health issues (obesity, smoking-caused cancer) were not covered by universal health care.
It is not always clear that obesity or smoking are the sole causes for enter illness here. I don't believe this is as easy as you think. IMO we spend too much time focused on health insurance be it public or private, instead of health care.
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Jul 13, 2012, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post

The same opportunity cost would indict people with a family, however that type of person is generally a better worker, because the "cost" actually makes them a fulfilled, focused, motivated, dedicated, happy, stable personality, traits which improve the quality of their work.
Religion does make people focused, motivated, and dedicated.

Not sure about happy and stable part though.

So what's your view on Islam religion? Muslims surely are dedicated and motivated people.
So what's your view on Scientology religion? Scientologists surely are dedicated and motivated people.

So you are arguing religious people are better workers?


Oops, I think i misread what you wrote. You are talking about people with a family.

If people with a family makes them better workers, then they must be too focus on work and not their kids.

Is there a correlation between the number of kids and how successful a person is?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
subego
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Jul 13, 2012, 06:51 PM
 
Remember, God made kids cute only so you don't slaughter them in their sleep.
     
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Jul 13, 2012, 07:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post

The same opportunity cost would indict people with a family, however that type of person is generally a better worker, because the "cost" actually makes them a fulfilled, focused, motivated, dedicated, happy, stable personality, traits which improve the quality of their work.
Religion does make people focused, motivated, and dedicated.

Not sure about happy and stable part though.

So what's your view on Islam religion? Muslims surely are dedicated and motivated people.
So what's your view on Scientology religion? Scientologists surely are dedicated and motivated people.

So you are arguing religious people are better workers?


Oops, I think i misread what you wrote. You are talking about people with a family.

If people with a family makes them better workers, then they must be too focus on work and not their kids.

Is there a correlation between the number of kids and how successful a person is?
You're going to great lengths to try to extract some actionable stereotype, where there is none to be had. Give up already, and accept that people are just people. Some are good and some are bad, and it's not because of their affiliations.
     
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Jul 13, 2012, 10:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
You're going to great lengths to try to extract some actionable stereotype, where there is none to be had. Give up already, and accept that people are just people. Some are good and some are bad, and it's not because of their affiliations.
You are going by stereotype.

You are the one making generalizations about how a person with a family is the "type of person is generally a better worker". Stereotype.
You said people with a family makes them a fulfilled (Stereotype), focused (Stereotype), motivated (Stereotype), dedicated (Stereotype), happy (Stereotype), stable personality (Stereotype), traits which improve the quality of their work (Stereotype).

I'm going by empirical numbers. I'm asking for numbers to back up your stereotype.

Instead of backing up your stereotype with empirical data, you accuse me of stereotype?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Jul 13, 2012, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
You're going to great lengths to try to extract some actionable stereotype, where there is none to be had. Give up already, and accept that people are just people. Some are good and some are bad, and it's not because of their affiliations.
You are going by stereotype.

You are the one making generalizations about how a person with a family is the "type of person is generally a better worker". Stereotype.
You said people with a family makes them a fulfilled (Stereotype), focused (Stereotype), motivated (Stereotype), dedicated (Stereotype), happy (Stereotype), stable personality (Stereotype), traits which improve the quality of their work (Stereotype).

I'm going by empirical numbers. I'm asking for numbers to back up your stereotype.

Instead of backing up your stereotype with empirical data, you accuse me of stereotype?
Exactly. Stereotypes are not useful. Instead of asking for someone else to "back up" the premise that stereotypes are useful, you should be asking yourself if the premise is true to begin with.
     
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Jul 14, 2012, 12:17 AM
 
Have fun with that, homophobic segment of the black community.
Tracking image links removed
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 01:41 AM
 
Republicans and Christian conservatives rejects critical thinking skills.

No wonder why Christians suck at Math and reading comprehension.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/texas_gops_2012_platform_accidentally_opposes_teac hing_of_critical_thinking_skills.php
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 02:00 AM
 
Christian Conservatives are afraid of critical thinking. You might have to challenge your belief in the Bible using critical thinking. OMG! We can't have that happening.


http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/no-comment-necessary-texas-gops-2012-platform-opposes-teaching-critical-thinking-skills/

The Republican Party of Texas’s 2012 platform has a plank on “Knowledge-Based Education” that reads:

We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Jul 18, 2012, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Christian Conservatives are afraid of critical thinking. You might have to challenge your belief in the Bible using critical thinking. OMG! We can't have that happening.
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/no-comment-necessary-texas-gops-2012-platform-opposes-teaching-critical-thinking-skills/
The Republican Party of Texas’s 2012 platform has a plank on “Knowledge-Based Education” that reads:
We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
found this on /r/

     
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Jul 18, 2012, 10:54 AM
 
More pearls
Proverbs 3
1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but keep my commands in your heart, 2 for they will prolong your life many years and bring you prosperity. 3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. 8 This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones. 9 Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops; 10 then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine. 11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline and do not resent his rebuke, 12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in. 13 Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding, 14 for she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies; nothing you desire can compare with her. 16 Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. 17 Her ways are pleasant ways, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who embrace her; those who lay hold of her will be blessed. 19 By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; 20 by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew. 21 My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment, do not let them out of your sight; 22 they will be life for you, an ornament to grace your neck. 23 Then you will go on your way in safety, and your foot will not stumble; 24 when you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet. 25 Have no fear of sudden disaster or of the ruin that overtakes the wicked, 26 for the LORD will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being snared. 27 Do not withhold good from those who deserve it, when it is in your power to act. 28 Do not say to your neighbor, "Come back later; I'll give it tomorrow"-- when you now have it with you. 29 Do not plot harm against your neighbor, who lives trustfully near you. 30 Do not accuse a man for no reason-- when he has done you no harm. 31 Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways, 32 for the LORD detests a perverse man but takes the upright into his confidence. 33 The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous. 34 He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble. 35 The wise inherit honor, but fools he holds up to shame
45/47
     
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Jul 24, 2012, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
More pearls
Proverbs 3
"5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"

how do u interpret that?
     
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Jul 25, 2012, 02:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
"5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"
how do u interpret that?
I interpret it to mean that if you always assume you know best, it's going to lead you to failure. I think that's pretty good advice.

If the man made global warming catastrophe crowd would have considered that there may have been a supreme being who had some kind of plan, then they wouldn't have embarrassed themselves for years by insisting that because their understanding of the issue lead them to believe their predictions, that this was a sure thing and "settled" science when in reality things are a lot more complex than they ever understood.

I don't think it means not to use your intelligence. I think it means to not overestimate it, and that there is another source of trusted enlightenment that is available to you, and possibly more reliable.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 1, 2012, 02:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I interpret it to mean that if you always assume you know best, it's going to lead you to failure. I think that's pretty good advice.
If the man made global warming catastrophe crowd would have considered that there may have been a supreme being who had some kind of plan, then they wouldn't have embarrassed themselves for years by insisting that because their understanding of the issue lead them to believe their predictions, that this was a sure thing and "settled" science when in reality things are a lot more complex than they ever understood.
I don't think it means not to use your intelligence. I think it means to not overestimate it, and that there is another source of trusted enlightenment that is available to you, and possibly more reliable.

This post is sanctimonious drivel. Its certainly no less arrogant or embarrassing than anything climate scientists have ever said.

If you were sat having your lunch and saw a bus coming straight for you at high speed, would you assume that it was a mirage or hallucination, trust to god's plan and stay in the way so as not to interrupt your lunch?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 1, 2012, 02:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
"5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"
how do u interpret that?

"Do as you're told, don't think for yourselves."
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 1, 2012, 02:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
This post is sanctimonious drivel. Its certainly no less arrogant or embarrassing than anything climate scientists have ever said.
If you were sat having your lunch and saw a bus coming straight for you at high speed, would you assume that it was a mirage or hallucination, trust to god's plan and stay in the way so as not to interrupt your lunch?
Why would you assume it was God's plan for you to stay in the way? Assuming there is a God, he has gifted you with the common sense to move. Not touch a hot stove. Don't wake a sleeping bear. Etc.

If you are confused about these things, you're welcome to turn to God and ask him to enlighten you. The first time you touch that hot stove, you're going to figure out that his plan wasn't for you to touch it.
     
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Aug 3, 2012, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Why would you assume it was God's plan for you to stay in the way? Assuming there is a God, he has gifted you with the common sense to move. Not touch a hot stove. Don't wake a sleeping bear. Etc.
If you are confused about these things, you're welcome to turn to God and ask him to enlighten you. The first time you touch that hot stove, you're going to figure out that his plan wasn't for you to touch it.
but where is your god?

in your heart?

that's called subjective not objective

again, you or anyone can't prove there is a god...just a feeling

it's really sad...your whole view on life is based on wishful thinking. when you ask your god, does he answer you or do you imagine he did?

using our brains got us out of the dark ages
     
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Aug 3, 2012, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
but where is your god?
in your heart?
that's called subjective not objective
again, you or anyone can't prove there is a god...just a feeling
it's really sad...your whole view on life is based on wishful thinking. when you ask your god, does he answer you or do you imagine he did?
using our brains got us out of the dark ages
Apparently not with that inflammatory post.
     
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Aug 4, 2012, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Why would you assume it was God's plan for you to stay in the way? Assuming there is a God, he has gifted you with the common sense to move. Not touch a hot stove. Don't wake a sleeping bear. Etc.
If you are confused about these things, you're welcome to turn to God and ask him to enlighten you. The first time you touch that hot stove, you're going to figure out that his plan wasn't for you to touch it.

The bus is global warming. It hasn't hit you yet, and it might swerve at the last minute and miss you. Or it might indeed turn out to be a mirage or hallucination. However, it looks like it will hit you so instinct and common sense dictate that you get out of the way. If god exists, he did indeed gift you the common sense to know to move, but your attitude to the global warming bus is to stay put because people have told you before that it is coming but it hasn't hit you yet.

Its you who advocates asking for enlightenment instead of using common sense. Its you who wants to get burned before you learn not to touch the hot stove. Actually the stove analogy doesn't really work here.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 4, 2012, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Apparently not with that inflammatory post.
Don't confuse blind tolerance with enlightenment.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 4, 2012, 07:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Apparently not with that inflammatory post.
should i apologize for offending people of the christian faith for saying that?

if so, isn't that a personal offense instead of a universal offense?


would you also be offended if i criticize gravity?



if you or anyone can prove there is a god, i promise i will convert!

the thing is, my criteria for proof of god is the same as your criteria for the nonexistence of other gods
     
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Aug 5, 2012, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Don't confuse blind tolerance with enlightenment.
classy.
     
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Aug 5, 2012, 12:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
should i apologize for offending people of the christian faith for saying that?
if so, isn't that a personal offense instead of a universal offense?
would you also be offended if i criticize gravity?
if you or anyone can prove there is a god, i promise i will convert!
the thing is, my criteria for proof of god is the same as your criteria for the nonexistence of other gods
The party of tolerance, equal rights, and equality ladies and gentlemen.
     
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Aug 20, 2012, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by gradient View Post

Are you saying that there isn't a homophobic segment of the black community? I'm fairly certain that there's a homophobic segment of every community (aside from the gay community, heh). Besides that, he didn't characterize it as "large"; that was a notable inference on your part.
Don't be so sure about that. Some of the biggest homophobes I've come across where in the closet gay people struggling to accept they are gay.
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Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
Athens
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Aug 20, 2012, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post

I'm saying that I've seen no evidence of widespread psychological disorder in any segment of the black community. If you'd like to present evidence of such, then feel free.
Have you seen how some of them talk....
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Aug 20, 2012, 02:32 PM
 
Apparently it used to be believed that black men were more prone to schizophrenia than other ethnicities, but more recently this has been attributed to other factors.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 21, 2012, 06:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Have you seen how some of them talk....
Yet again, Athens shows his true nature.
     
 
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