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The Russian Connection (Page 11)
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subego
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Jul 23, 2017, 11:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
And now he's talking about pardoning himself and his kids before they've even been found guilty of anything. Sounds a bit like something a dictator would do. Even the Saudis are arresting and executing princes these days. Though they aren't short of them to be fair.
My guess is Trump considers himself and those around him to be innocent, but believes there to be a vast left-wing conspiracy with them in the crosshairs.

Anyone in this scenario double-checks the parachutes before takeoff.


Also note I'd bet money the lack of context is intentional. If Trump asked the question because he knows how guilty he is (as we're supposed to imagine), holy shit that gets put in the leak.
( Last edited by subego; Jul 23, 2017 at 12:53 PM. )
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 23, 2017, 12:31 PM
 
Problem: By saying 'anyone would take that meeting' Trump is creating a situation where he's both admitting he would do wrong and that he believes he's innocent because it shouldn't be a crime.

i.e., his morals are so bad he wouldn't realize he's guilty.
     
subego
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Jul 23, 2017, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Problem: By saying 'anyone would take that meeting' Trump is creating a situation where he's both admitting he would do wrong and that he believes he's innocent because it shouldn't be a crime.

i.e., his morals are so bad he wouldn't realize he's guilty.
If you haven't read How to Make Friends and Influence People, I can give you the most important takeaway about human nature in one short sentence.

Al Capone thought of himself as a great guy.
     
subego
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Jul 23, 2017, 01:18 PM
 
And perhaps ironically, this is one of the reasons I "defend" Trump. Much of the criticism lodged against him assumes a level of self-awareness on his part which by all objective measures simply does not exist.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 23, 2017, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If you haven't read How to Make Friends and Influence People, I can give you the most important takeaway about human nature in one short sentence.

Al Capone thought of himself as a great guy.
It's probably been 20 years since I read it, so I have no recollection.

But think of the context this puts his witchhunt comments in – he's not saying he's not guilty, he's complaining about being singled out for what he thinks everybody is doing. HIs complaints about Hillary might be real bewilderment; He doesn't grasp that people might have problems with what he's doing because he's president, and so any wrongdoing on her part is less consequential.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
And perhaps ironically, this is one of the reasons I "defend" Trump. Much of the criticism lodged against him assumes a level of self-awareness on his part which by all objective measures simply does not exist.
He's 70 years old. Ignorance is no longer an excuse. Perhaps you can give me better context, but I can't think of any situation where ignorance instead of malevolence makes an act above reproach.

I mean, this is exactly what they're trying to pull with Don Junior's meeting.
     
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Jul 23, 2017, 08:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My guess is Trump considers himself and those around him to be innocent, but believes there to be a vast left-wing conspiracy with them in the crosshairs.

Anyone in this scenario double-checks the parachutes before takeoff.


Also note I'd bet money the lack of context is intentional. If Trump asked the question because he knows how guilty he is (as we're supposed to imagine), holy shit that gets put in the leak.
Innocent people who are in charge of and have loaded the system in their favour, shouldn't be remotely worried about being found guilty. Needing a pardon is tantamount to an admission of guilt.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jul 23, 2017, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
He's 70 years old. Ignorance is no longer an excuse. Perhaps you can give me better context, but I can't think of any situation where ignorance instead of malevolence makes an act above reproach.
The claim isn't ignorance makes him above reproach, the claim is ignorance is the reason for the reproach.

This is different than a reproach for malevolence.
     
subego
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Jul 23, 2017, 09:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Innocent people who are in charge of and have loaded the system in their favour, shouldn't be remotely worried about being found guilty.
Coff... Hillary Clinton... coff, coff.


(In case the point isn't clear, my reply could also have been "spoken like someone lucky enough never to have had half a nation gunning for them")
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 23, 2017, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The claim isn't ignorance makes him above reproach, the claim is ignorance is the reason for the reproach.

This is different than a reproach for malevolence.
I think I still miss your point, because what I'm getting is "You shouldn't get pissed at him for being stupid."
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 23, 2017, 10:46 PM
 
http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...a-and-trump-jr
Third party candidate Jill Stein was a surprising addition this week to investigators casting an increasingly wide net in the congressional probe into Russian interference in the presidential campaign.
But investigators seem to be casting a wider net by asking Trump Jr. for “all communication to, from or copied to you relating to” a long list of individuals that include Stein.
The only known connection between Stein and the investigation into Russian officials is a dinner she attended in 2015 where former Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn and Russian President Vladimir Putin were both present. Stein has said her interaction was minimal.
wat
     
subego
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Jul 24, 2017, 12:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I think I still miss your point, because what I'm getting is "You shouldn't get pissed at him for being stupid."
What I'm saying is if he's stupid, don't be pissed at him for being malevolent.

Example: the evidence you ****ing killed it with why the White House has been banning cameras... to keep this pathetic man-child from throwing tantrums.

Compare and contrast with "opening gambit to destroy the free press".

I'm going to be pissed about either of these, but the nature and scale are vastly different.
     
subego
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Jul 24, 2017, 01:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Foil hat sez she pushed the recount to undermine confidence in the system.

Not that we know anyone else whom is alleged to have that aim.

The added spice is her tweeting this is a "witch hunt", allegations of impropriety are "fake news", and bashing the shit out of Hillary.

Not that we know anyone who says those sorts of things.

Or anyone who tangibly benefited from her trying to skim votes off the Hilldawg.

In swing states.
     
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Jul 24, 2017, 09:31 AM
 
Aliens could land in Central Park and CNN/MSNBC would still be all Russia all the time.
     
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Jul 24, 2017, 09:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Aliens could land in Central Park and CNN/MSNBC would still be all Russia all the time.
Not true. CNN would cover it if the aliens had answers about that missing jetliner
     
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Jul 24, 2017, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't think he's gonna down on a technicality. If all they find is one or two shady deals 10 years ago, he should stay on.

However I'd be surprised if you'd be against deposing a pres Hillary on a technicality.

Edit: They use the term oligarch because Russia's market is rigged to bejesus and back.

Edit 2: Hell, Clinton was impeached on a technicality
Technicality? Bubba was impeached for perjury while in office.
Technicality? Comey laid out out a case in his July press conference had it been any one else would have been charged, tried and sentenced. What Clinton did occured while she was SOS. There hasn't been a investigation into the pay to play involving the Clinton Foundation(s) while she was SOS.

CNN drones on about collusion, except their collusion with the Clinton campaign and the collusion that kept Sanders from the nomination.


Whitewater occured while Bubba was Governor and should have been dealt with by Arkansas.

This is the danger of the "special counsel" they begin with looking at one thing, then go elsewhere. Example: In the Plaime case, the SP already knew before he even began who leaked her name. He went on to set perjury traps until he got someone.

In the Whitewater case, Starr tried to turn Susan McDugal but she knew what happened to those who did. She fell on her sword and spent time in jail for contempt. Bubba couldn't pardon her because it would have looked like a quid pro quo, and would have not been good for Hillary's carpet bag run for senate.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 24, 2017, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Technicality? Bubba was impeached for perjury while in office.
...about a blowjob. The relevance to the office is near zero. There's a laundry list of things a President can legally do that concern me more.

Do you think he should have been removed from office for that?


Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Technicality? Comey laid out out a case in his July press conference had it been any one else would have been charged, tried and sentenced. What Clinton did occured while she was SOS. There hasn't been a investigation into the pay to play involving the Clinton Foundation(s) while she was SOS.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying in a theoretical world where there's nothing on her, I'd be surprised if you'd be against impeaching her on a technicality.

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This is the danger of the "special counsel" they begin with looking at one thing, then go elsewhere. Example: In the Plaime case, the SP already knew before he even began who leaked her name. He went on to set perjury traps until he got someone.

In the Whitewater case, Starr tried to turn Susan McDugal but she knew what happened to those who did. She fell on her sword and spent time in jail for contempt. Bubba couldn't pardon her because it would have looked like a quid pro quo, and would have not been good for Hillary's carpet bag run for senate.
...so you were against that stuff at the time?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 24, 2017, 09:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Example: the evidence you ****ing killed it with why the White House has been banning cameras... to keep this pathetic man-child from throwing tantrums.

Compare and contrast with "opening gambit to destroy the free press".

I'm going to be pissed about either of these, but the nature and scale are vastly different.
I mean, they were talking about limiting press briefings since before they assumes office. I see this as a convergence of interests. I never saw the ban as being solely about Trump. What do you have to lose when you're getting it from both sides anyway?

Second, I've noticed Trump has very good instincts rather than conscious strategy, likely honed from a lifetime of doing this shit. A simplistic example is whatabouting Hillary. Nixon did something similar because they were trying to change the subject. Trump does it because (likely) he does think he's being singled out. End result is the same, however.
     
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Jul 24, 2017, 09:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Foil hat sez she pushed the recount to undermine confidence in the system.

Not that we know anyone else whom is alleged to have that aim.

The added spice is her tweeting this is a "witch hunt", allegations of impropriety are "fake news", and bashing the shit out of Hillary.

Not that we know anyone who says those sorts of things.

Or anyone who tangibly benefited from her trying to skim votes off the Hilldawg.

In swing states.
It was clear that all her attacks were on Hillary but making a pact with the Trump campaign would be a bridge I'd never has suspected.
     
subego
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Jul 25, 2017, 05:19 AM
 
     
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Jul 25, 2017, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Aliens could land in Central Park and CNN/MSNBC would still be all Russia all the time.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not true. CNN would cover it if the aliens had answers about that missing jetliner
Trump met with P'Lod to thank him for his help in the election. Now we know the truth. Wolf can ask if he found out about the jetliner.
     
subego
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Jul 25, 2017, 02:18 PM
 
I call bullshit.

The aliens helped Reagan get top job.

They helped Clinton get ass.
     
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Jul 25, 2017, 09:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not true. CNN would cover it if the aliens had answers about that missing jetliner
Only if there were Russian who'd claimed to have spoken to Trump on it.
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Jul 26, 2017, 12:20 PM
 
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...mittee/534864/

Is this the right thread? Or maybe this is better suited to the "how do you feel about Russia thread."

I am the founder and CEO of Hermitage Capital Management. I grew up in Chicago, but for the last 28 years I’ve lived in Moscow and London, and am now a British citizen. From 1996 to 2005, my firm, Hermitage Capital, was one of the largest investment advisers in Russia with more than $4 billion invested in Russian stocks.
Consequently, I had an interest in fighting this endemic corruption, so my firm started doing detailed research on exactly how the oligarchs stole the vast amounts of money that they did. When we were finished with our research we would share it with the domestic and international media.

For a time, this naming and shaming campaign worked remarkably well and led to less corruption and increased share prices in the companies we invested in. Why? Because President Vladimir Putin and I shared the same set of enemies.
That all changed in July 2003, when Putin arrested Russia’s biggest oligarch and richest man, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Putin grabbed Khodorkovsky off his private jet, took him back to Moscow, put him on trial, and allowed television cameras to film Khodorkovsky sitting in a cage right in the middle of the courtroom. That image was extremely powerful, because none of the other oligarchs wanted to be in the same position. After Khodorkovsky’s conviction, the other oligarchs went to Putin and asked him what they needed to do to avoid sitting in the same cage as Khodorkovsky. From what followed, it appeared that Putin’s answer was, “Fifty percent.” He wasn’t saying 50 percent for the Russian government or the presidential administration of Russia, but 50 percent for Vladimir Putin personally. From that moment on, Putin became the biggest oligarch in Russia and the richest man in the world, and my anti-corruption activities would no longer be tolerated.
And then the obvious happens - he gets arrested and deported, and everybody that's working on his side gets imprisoned, poisoned, thrown off a building, or just murdered.
     
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Jul 26, 2017, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I call bullshit.

The aliens helped Reagan get top job.

They helped Clinton get ass.
Bubba promised him Hillary in return,but she spurned him in the end. He's been on a revenge campaign ever since. He stopped her from the nomination in 2008. That's why the DNC had to collude with her in 2016. P'Lod was backing Bernie.
     
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Jul 26, 2017, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...mittee/534864/

Is this the right thread? Or maybe this is better suited to the "how do you feel about Russia thread."







And then the obvious happens - he gets arrested and deported, and everybody that's working on his side gets imprisoned, poisoned, thrown off a building, or just murdered.
Could be the fate of Little Debbie's IT tech. He was arrested while trying to flee the country. Numorous smashed HDD's were recovered from his home.
     
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Jul 26, 2017, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Bubba promised him Hillary in return,but she spurned him in the end. He's been on a revenge campaign ever since. He stopped her from the nomination in 2008. That's why the DNC had to collude with her in 2016. P'Lod was backing Bernie.
That P'Lod, he's such a skamp!
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 26, 2017, 11:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...mittee/534864/

Is this the right thread? Or maybe this is better suited to the "how do you feel about Russia thread."
Its fine here or the witchhunt thread, as its official testimony.

I have real trouble grasping how evil Putin is given the far reaching web of people who some would classify as 'convenient' or 'unexpected' deaths. I read something about the UK tacitly accepting Putin hit squads functioning in the UK to avoid diplomatic fallout and i thought it was incredibly hard to swallow.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 12:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Its fine here or the witchhunt thread, as its official testimony.

I have real trouble grasping how evil Putin is given the far reaching web of people who some would classify as 'convenient' or 'unexpected' deaths. I read something about the UK tacitly accepting Putin hit squads functioning in the UK to avoid diplomatic fallout and i thought it was incredibly hard to swallow.
The only way I would have trouble buying this is if there's no quid pro quo tucked away somewhere.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 12:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The only way I would have trouble buying this is if there's no quid pro quo tucked away somewhere.
I can't recall. The gist I remember is they were afraid of all-out war which I found preposterous.
     
subego
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Jul 27, 2017, 02:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I can't recall. The gist I remember is they were afraid of all-out war which I found preposterous.
That's one half. The other half is Russia not starting all-out war when U.K. hit squads make a mess.

Pet theory of mine, which is this on a smaller scale.

One of the reasons the IC is so torqued off right now is because Hillary was supposed to win, thus rendering Russian interference irrelevant as far as the public is concerned.

If she had won, it would have been business as usual for everybody involved.

Well, it got out of hand, and now we have to retaliate.

The equivalent would be the U.K. press getting tape of a Russian hit where someone on the team is identifiable.

Okay, now we've got a ****ing international incident on our hands. The U.K. has to respond.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The only way I would have trouble buying this is if there's no quid pro quo tucked away somewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lled_in_Russia

Is there a similar list for the US/UK?
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 10:03 AM
 
Well it's not journalists being killed in the U.K. It's oligarchs that fled after falling out of favor and others.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 10:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Well it's not journalists being killed in the U.K. It's oligarchs that fled after falling out of favor and others.
When subego mentioned quid pro quo, I figured that meant that Russia allows UK/US hit squads to operate on foreign soil without interference. I'm questioning what those hit squads are doing.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 10:43 AM
 
Call me naive but I don't buy hit squad quid pro quo. Not on the level that is implied as happening in the U.K.
     
subego
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Jul 27, 2017, 10:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lled_in_Russia

Is there a similar list for the US/UK?
Ask Seth Rich... hey-ooooooooo.


Let me put it this way. There is a list of "deaths which can be traced to the U.S. or U.K. that should have precipitated an international incident yet mysteriously didn't"

I don't think that list is full of journalists, however it's not because we're nice, but because our respective political systems (A/K/A pesky democracy) are more resistant to that type of interference.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Call me naive but I don't buy hit squad quid pro quo. Not on the level that is implied as happening in the U.K.
I think a key element here is Russa sticking to killing people the U.K. considers "Russian combatants".

Russia can kill as many of their own guys as they want.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 11:02 AM
 
FWIU, there's also something of a difference how U.S. intelligence plays things vs. the Russians.

I get the idea GRU and the FSB are very "hands on".

The CIA likes to work with cutouts. IOW, if we need to whack someone in Russia, we hire Russians.

I know the least about U.K. intelligence protocols.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 11:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lled_in_Russia

Is there a similar list for the US/UK?
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Ask Seth Rich... hey-ooooooooo.


Let me put it this way. There is a list of "deaths which can be traced to the U.S. or U.K. that should have precipitated an international incident yet mysteriously didn't"

I don't think that list is full of journalists, however it's not because we're nice, but because our respective political systems (A/K/A pesky democracy) are more resistant to that type of interference.
Rich is the latest addition to the "Clinton Death List."
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 11:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think a key element here is Russa sticking to killing people the U.K. considers "Russian combatants".

Russia can kill as many of their own guys as they want.
That's a good distinction. However I don't think most people would be cool with you holding a war that doesn't involve you in your house, which is essentially what they're doing.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I know the least about U.K. intelligence protocols.
Thats the way we like it.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Thats the way we like it.
It's an improvement over the "gay and working for the Soviets" model...

Hey-oooooooo.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
That's a good distinction. However I don't think most people would be cool with you holding a war that doesn't involve you in your house, which is essentially what they're doing.
"We shoot up house. Boris have many regrets. Take free nose powder."
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 01:10 PM
 
Could be this guy will be next on the kill list.
     
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Jul 27, 2017, 05:48 PM
 
@Chongo
You realize that Cernovich Media is run by the conspiracy theorist Mike Cernovich, the guy who claimed Hillary Clinton and Mike Podesta ran a child sex ring out of the (non-existent) basement of a pizza parlor (aka pizza gate)? The pizza parlor that got raided by a moron with an assault rifle who wanted to check it out for himself. Do yourself a favor and quit fake news. You can be opposed to Clinton or in favor of Trump without having to believe in fantasies.
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Jul 27, 2017, 07:02 PM
 
This is a fake news thread so...... BTW, he gets his intel from P'Lod

Did or did not Little Debbie's IT tech get arrested trying to flee the country?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 27, 2017, 07:27 PM
 
I eagerly await all the dirty deets on the Clinton foundation being dumped out during their coming investigation. Bill's looking rough though, I hope he doesn't die before he's convicted.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Chongo
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Jul 27, 2017, 07:45 PM
 
C is for Conspiricy to commit bank fraud
Wasserman Schultz fires IT staffer following fraud arrest
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...rrest-48857862
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 27, 2017, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This is a fake news thread so......
Not only is it not fake news, it ceased to be a conspiracy once Junior released the emails that said Russia want to help you and replied, "I love it."

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
C is for Conspiricy to commit bank fraud
Wasserman Schultz fires IT staffer following fraud arrest
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...rrest-48857862
Stop trying to derail the thread.
     
Chongo
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Jul 27, 2017, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not only is it not fake news, it ceased to be a conspiracy once Junior released the emails that said Russia want to help you and replied, "I love it."


Stop trying to derail the thread.
Just giving Cookie a "not fake news" source.
How do you know that the IT tech wasn't the source that Wikileaks got the emails from?

Trying to get dirt on Hillary ≠ colluding with Putin on the release of emails, unless you've decided to move the goalposts
     
subego
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Jul 27, 2017, 08:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not only is it not fake news, it ceased to be a conspiracy once Junior released the emails that said Russia want to help you and replied, "I love it."


Stop trying to derail the thread.
If he can successfully derail this thread he needs to fire off an email to jobs@whitehouse.gov.

I think it's appropriate to discuss in one of the Russia threads the contrast in coverage so far.
     
 
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