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Cost to locate and destroy IEDs
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SSharon
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Nov 18, 2011, 03:09 PM
 
I was watching the show Bomb Patrol the other day and was amazed at how long it takes to clear a road of IEDs, not to mention the dangers in doing so.

I'm wondering whether it would be cheaper to just pave some of the main roads so that IEDs couldn't be easily buried in the dirt. Would it be cheaper to do this than to spend hours and days clearing a 1 mile stretch of road with expensive machinery and manpower?

(This is not intended to be a political discussion of any sort so let's please keep it out of the PWL.)
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subego
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Nov 18, 2011, 03:20 PM
 
Yes, but that's a first world kind of solution.

Try that in Iraq, and there's no money to pave the roads in the first place, let alone keep them maintained. I'd assume a big pothole is perfect for an IED.

Lastly, insurgents, especially ones who have survived for years, are pretty diabolically clever. You close one route of attack, they find another.
     
imitchellg5
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Nov 18, 2011, 07:55 PM
 
You'd have to have the infrastructure to create, pave, and maintain the roads. And keep in mind that in most urban areas of Iraq, those used to be paved roads before George came waltzing in.
     
subego
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Nov 19, 2011, 01:41 AM
 
Didn't I just say that?
     
brassplayersrock²
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Nov 19, 2011, 01:52 AM
 


Not exactly, but close.
     
subego
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Nov 19, 2011, 01:55 AM
 
Rhetorical question.
     
ghporter
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Nov 19, 2011, 09:37 AM
 
Road construction in the US takes weeks per block, and is not subject to sabotage overnight, etc. It would be not only at least as time consuming, but fraught with far more difficulties and be incredibly LESS secure to try this there. While "pave it all so they cannot hide or bury things" is attractive in theory, it just wouldn't work there.

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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 19, 2011, 10:55 AM
 
You'd still have to clear the IEDs before you paved over them.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
brassplayersrock²
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Nov 19, 2011, 04:15 PM
 
     
SSharon  (op)
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Nov 19, 2011, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You'd still have to clear the IEDs before you paved over them.
True, but if you clear and pave at the same time at least you don't have to start over every day.

Paving roads well is obviously expensive, so I guess my question is whether paving them poorly would be effective enough. Military vehicles tend to be very heavy so I guess 4 inches of asphalt won't cut it.
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Athens
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Nov 19, 2011, 10:11 PM
 
I don't get why they don't use equipment like this to clear out IDE's quickly

Aardvark JSFU - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You figure that a couple of those in front then a bulldozer behind them leveling the ground to repair the damage would work.
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brassplayersrock²
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Nov 20, 2011, 05:19 AM
 
Someone didn't check the links above.
     
Athens
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Nov 20, 2011, 06:15 AM
 
Mindwolf system is pretty different to Mind Flail.
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ghporter
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Nov 20, 2011, 02:15 PM
 
IEDs are NOT mines in the traditional sense, so flails and most explosive-based counter-mine systems don't work. IEDs are usually command-detonated: someone manually triggers the device from a distance, either by wire or some more advanced system (cell phones seem to be quite popular for this), so the "shooter" could merely wait until the flail or foot patrol had passed before blowing them up. A traditional mine is detonated by a fuze that depends on pressure or vibration, or sometimes a trip-wire, and is built to go off whenever its trigger is appropriately disturbed. It is completely random, and can blow up the person who planted it, or others from his side, just as easily as his intended target.

One of the more popular core devices for IEDs has been artillery projectiles without their normal fuzes, and which are designed to handle being fired from a canon at what has to be scores of Gs, so a flail or nearby but small explosion (the typical counter-mine systems) wouldn't even be noticed. But with an electrically triggered detonator, they can easily be set off only when the people who planted them want. So clearing them requires locating them, ensuring the bad guys cannot set them off, then physically planting a shaped charge on the projectile's steel case, and then setting that off manually (and from a great distance, of course).

These devices are usually enormously over-powerful, due to the bad guys' desire to counter the armoring of our vehicles and people, so when one is destroyed in this way, it makes a huge crater. While this would be fine for helping to get deep enough for a good road base, you also have to wait for the debris to settle and people's ears to quit ringing, and then move forward 100 meters to maybe find the next IED.

There is another point to consider. While not always, our forces often do catch the bad guys in the act of planting IEDs, and that means they can capture them and maybe find out who is behind them, which is more useful than simply stopping them from doing it in the first place. And if they couldn't plant these devices along roads, they would (absolutely no doubt about it) find some other kind of setting to use, one that may be even less simple to defend against.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
SSharon  (op)
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Nov 21, 2011, 10:48 AM
 
Thanks for the information Glenn, enlightening as always.

With regard to using cell phones as the trigger does the military use those devices that interrupt all cell phone signals? Is there a danger that it would set off an IED? Would it interfere with military communications?

If IEDs are locally and intelligently triggered so frequently them I'm surprised that they aren't even more devastating. Something about manually clearing a road 100 feet at a time just seems so dangerous and inefficient that we need something radically different.
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Athens
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Nov 21, 2011, 01:05 PM
 
I think they need to perfect the remote controlled Vehicle which is made up to look like it has occupants, a lot of occupants that they drive via remote from another vehicle in a convoy. That alone could cut down the deaths and injuries since a lot of the IED's take out the lead vehicles or the fattest looking target. Costly option money wise but any that are not spotted would have just taken out a vehicle anyways but with people.

For the most part IEDs will never be defeated as a technology. Just because it isn't a definable recognizable threat and target. The cost of the clearing now is easily justifiably if even one life is saved from one. I imagine many lives have been saved.
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ghporter
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Nov 21, 2011, 09:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Thanks for the information Glenn, enlightening as always.

With regard to using cell phones as the trigger does the military use those devices that interrupt all cell phone signals? Is there a danger that it would set off an IED? Would it interfere with military communications?

If IEDs are locally and intelligently triggered so frequently them I'm surprised that they aren't even more devastating. Something about manually clearing a road 100 feet at a time just seems so dangerous and inefficient that we need something radically different.
I do not know how they disable remot control on cell-triggered devices, but I would wager that they have some sort of local signal disrupting capability. It doesn't take much to screw up a cell signal, and since these explosive devices are built from military-grade components, they are very resistant to spurious electrical signals.

I think the infrequency of these attacks is a part of the tactics of their use. You never know whether or not one is there, so you have to assume one is, and that could be seen as "wearing down" our forces. Plus, it ain't so easy to assemble three 155 mm artillery rounds, their "new" fuze and a cell phone to trigger the mess, so the economics of this type of combat are in force against the bad guys.

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subego
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Dec 22, 2011, 02:32 PM
 
     
   
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