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mitchell_pgh · Apr 7, 2004, 10:58 PM

I just finished up with the movie and would admit that the film is noteworthy to say the least. I was happy to see that the movie completely assumed that you knew and understood the history of all of the characters and events up to this movie (a good thing, as I didn't want any character development in this film). While the ending wasn't what I thought it would be (considering the negative review), I thought the final solution was much better then what the mainstream press wrapped it up to be. It isn't another "we win, you lose" type of solution which was a surprisingly nice. The hero dies, mankind averts disaster and the future is marked with uncertainty.

Sure it would have been great to see Neo smash everything in the matrix and end up with the girl in the end, but that would have completely gone against the whole idea of what the matrix represented... REALITY beyond the construct . As in the real world, the final solution wasn't perfect... it wasn't clean... it wasn't simple.

I would give the movie a solid four out of five stars. That being said, I usually give rented movies higher ratings over theater viewings.

tavilach · Apr 8, 2004, 12:11 AM

I watched it on pay-per-view at my hotel (for $12...what a ripoff)...

I liked it a lot. I thought it was so much better than the second, which stunk like a skunk...

ae86_16v · Apr 8, 2004, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
At first I was disappointed with Reloaded because of what the original was like. Then after watching Reloaded at home after buying the DVD, it didn't seem that bad at all... it actually had some parts that almost made it stronger than the original in my mind. Then I saw Revolutions and left the theater really really mad. I got the DVD this Sunday (7-11... whoops!), and after watching it again, I don't mind it as much. I still think the third one is the weakest one... but the whole Zion battle scene didn't bother me like it did before, the ending didn't bother me like it did before... it just seemed to fit together better.

I guess my problem was that I was expecting something in particular and got something different and reacted negatively.

Matt Fahrenbacher

Exactly. . . the story actually flows a lot better. There are strong points in both of the sequels. And watching them a second time and understanding the story more they are definitely more enjoyable. If you think about it, it couldn't have ended any other way. This wasn't the Greats ending of all, but it was definitely a good one.

Trilogy completely. Definitely a Thumbs Up.

Vader�s Pinch of Death · Apr 8, 2004, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by starman:
That's my problem - they got nowhere. Too many questions at the end of the film. They "zero'd" out the whole story - back to the beginning. What was it all for?
Mike

No it didn't go back the the begining. They said at the end people that would want to leave could. That means peace which was not the case in the first.

Ozmodiar · Apr 8, 2004, 03:26 AM

- - - - S P O I L E R S - - - -

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
In the second one agents were jumping and crushing cars on the highway like they were the friggin incredible hulk! In the 3rd bodyguards were running on the ceiling!
The end battle with Mr smith looked like something out of a Japanese cartoon with them fighting in the air like that. SILLY!

I'm not a Matrix fanboy, but I'll offer a defense of these points.

The agents are stronger and quicker than they were in the original movie, as Neo found out in the first fight scene: "Hmm...Upgrades."

Merv's bodyguards aren't agents, so they shouldn't be expected to follow the same rules as agents. We learned in Reloaded that they're all programs left over from an archaic version of the Matrix, and Merv saved them.

As for the final brawl looking like anime: The Wachowski Brothers were always intending to make the Matrix series be live-action anime. I agree that fight scene did get a little cartoony, but I still thought it was very entertaining.

I guess my beef isn't with the resolution of the trilogy, but the actual ending of Revolutions. Neo and Trinity dying was good filmmaking, I just could have done without the final scene that took place in the Matrix. Or maybe keep that scene, but end the movie with Neo being carried out of the machine city on the bed of that huge robot.

Oh, and the forty minutes of no Neo during the fight to save Zion. That got a little "pod-race boring" if you ask me.

Mark Tungston · Apr 8, 2004, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Ozmodiar:

his post

thanks, this thread needed some calm level defending

matrix 3 was fair/average at the worst... NOT even close to the worst evar

mitchell_pgh · Apr 8, 2004, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Mark Tungston:
thanks, this thread needed some calm level defending

matrix 3 was fair/average at the worst... NOT even close to the worst evar

I think after watching the 3rd movie, the 2nd isn't as bad as it originally was. 2-3 jell well.

dlefebvre · Apr 8, 2004, 07:55 PM

I believe they could have done a better job by combining part 2 and 3 in a single 2 1/2 movie. To me, the only problem of 2 and 3 versus the first one is fight scenes, chases and speaches that just don't end. It's a very good trilogy, but it could have been an amazing 2 parts saga.

kikkoman · Apr 9, 2004, 08:56 AM

I just watched the DVD and I didn't think it sucked too bad. It was ok, better than Reloaded.

mitchell_pgh · 08:24 PM

Originally posted by kikkoman:
I just watched the DVD and I didn't think it sucked too bad. It was ok, better than Reloaded.

This is the only part that made me really cringe...

http://home.gwu.edu/~mitch/clip.jpg

deej5871 · Apr 9, 2004, 08:24 PM

I really like all the Matrix movies but there's always something that really irks me.

--Some spoilers, maybe--

The battles are literally pointless. In Reloaded, the "Burly Brawl" between the Smiths and Neo is pointless because Neo just flies away. In Revolutions the Zion battle is pointless because when Neo asks for peace they all just stop. Then, in the "Super Burly Brawl" Neo is just absorbed by Smith after all the fighting, and then they blow up. The action is all pointless. That's what gets me.

Fothb · Apr 9, 2004, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by deej5871:
I really like all the Matrix movies but there's always something that really irks me.

--Some spoilers, maybe--

The battles are literally pointless. In Reloaded, the "Burly Brawl" between the Smiths and Neo is pointless because Neo just flies away. In Revolutions the Zion battle is pointless because when Neo asks for peace they all just stop. Then, in the "Super Burly Brawl" Neo is just absorbed by Smith after all the fighting, and then they blow up. The action is all pointless. That's what gets me.

I'll take a crack at a friendly debunk... (more spoilers)

1. In the Burly Brawl, Neo doesn't yet know just how many copies that Smith has made of himself. He starts a simple one on one fight which he thinks will be easy for him. Then more and more Smiths show up and he eventually has to call it a stalemate and say "I'm outta here". This revealed the spreading virus type problem of Smith in addition to being cool to watch.

2. The Zion battle was not pointless and was not simply over when Neo asked politely for peace. He had to point out to the computers that the Matrix was about to be lost to Smith, and offer its salvation in trade for Zion's.

3. In the "Super Burly Brawl", Neo doesn't immediately know what must be done to end the fight. He didn't know the answer in the back of his head the entire time and just fight with Smith for fun. He had to beat his head against the proverbial brick wall by not getting anywhere with the battle before realizing what must be done.

Granted, none of these things are perhaps as deep as you might have liked for them to be, but I think that they did have a little more plot behind them than senseless violence.

Timo · Apr 10, 2004, 02:06 AM

**SPOILERS**

I just finished watching "Revolutions" after looking at "Reloaded" again. "Reloaded" works pretty well, BTW, if you skip most of the Zion stuff and pay attention to the adventures of Neo.

And that's a line of critique I can extend into "Revolutions." The movie is literally boring whenever Neo isn't advancing the plot. I mean dullsville. While "Reloaded" can't touch the original Matrix, it still keeps the action on a personal level -- that is to say, what Neo and company do, including their social interactions (talking but also fighting) make sense and are interesting. But by the time we get to "Revolutions," everything is about sheer numbers, and I'm bored. I don't care if Zion survives or not, because I know the movie can't end with Zion's destruction. Consequently, I'm only really interested in the fate of Neo.

The trouble is, he goes to all the trouble to get the machines to jack him back into the matrix, and all he gets there is rained on. I mean, the sense of action, showdown and rivalry between Neo and Agent Smith is depleted, and the whole bit seems tired. There's no vicersal pleasure in watching them "fight", because they're animated blobs who, by the logic presented in "Reloaded," have long left this world's constraints. By contrast, when Neo fights with Merovingian's old programs, or Morpheus and Trinity fight with the ghosts, I'm entertained -- I can imagine the cuts, crashes and fighting viserally. It's grounded in a physics of my ordinary world. But with this Final Showdown, we've lost that sense of my-world physics. The end result for me is that I don't really care, and I find especially lame that Neo just causes all the Agent Smith renegade programs to "blow up" such that the matrix is zeroed again.

I mean, a plot only a hard drive could love. Frankly, whenever any of these movies stepped away from the sense of gravity, shadow and pulsing blood, I was bored (a particularly good example here is the Zion defense). Conversely, whenever they were sailing on wires or pounding each other--and keeping one foot in this real world-- I was entralled. Sadly, "Revolutions" has very little of the latter, and too much mumbo-jumbo as filler for the other bits.

deej5871 · Apr 10, 2004, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Fothb:
I'll take a crack at a friendly debunk... (more spoilers)

1. In the Burly Brawl, Neo doesn't yet know just how many copies that Smith has made of himself. He starts a simple one on one fight which he thinks will be easy for him. Then more and more Smiths show up and he eventually has to call it a stalemate and say "I'm outta here". This revealed the spreading virus type problem of Smith in addition to being cool to watch.

2. The Zion battle was not pointless and was not simply over when Neo asked politely for peace. He had to point out to the computers that the Matrix was about to be lost to Smith, and offer its salvation in trade for Zion's.

3. In the "Super Burly Brawl", Neo doesn't immediately know what must be done to end the fight. He didn't know the answer in the back of his head the entire time and just fight with Smith for fun. He had to beat his head against the proverbial brick wall by not getting anywhere with the battle before realizing what must be done.

Granted, none of these things are perhaps as deep as you might have liked for them to be, but I think that they did have a little more plot behind them than senseless violence.

*Spoilers,again...*
I'll agree with you. They were like that, and as you said, it's just I would have preferred that they were deeper. Like the Super Burly Brawl, I would have liked it more had Neo actually beat the Smith rather than be absorbed and then the machines are actually the ones that kill Smith (by sending the pulse thing into his body). But that's how I would have played it, I'm no writer, so I guess I'll accept it for what it was.

Cadaver · Apr 10, 2004, 05:21 AM

I had a marathon session of Reloaded and Revolutions back to back. Played much better as one long movie than two separate films where you would otherwise loose track of plot lines.

Also found it more entertaining at home than in the theater. While I was initially somewhat disappointed by the sequels, I'm less inclined to think that now. I was also better able to understand all the subtleties (or at least as much as anyone can).

Cadaver · 08:24 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
This is the only part that made me really cringe...

http://home.gwu.edu/~mitch/clip.jpg

That didn't bother me - remember, the little girl did it. So it's supposed to be a bit child-like.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 10, 2004, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Cadaver:
That didn't bother me - remember, the little girl did it. So it's supposed to be a bit child-like.

Good point...

HotSoup · Apr 10, 2004, 10:01 AM

3 was 'ok' the first time around. But re-watching it with that Zion battle is soooo annoying and drawn out. It's like 'viewer battle fatigue' where you just get tired of it. Some of the dialogue was cheese also.

3 was 'ok' at best. If you're a matrix fan, then it's obviously worth viewing, but other than that I can't recommend it.

busket68 · Apr 10, 2004, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Cadaver:
Also found it more entertaining at home than in the theater.

This is why I saw reloaded three times in the theater. Everyone disagreed with me, and said the movie was ****. Now that they actually ahve the time to watch it and pay attention to everything going on, they finally see the light, and say it's a good trilogy. God I love being about 6 months more intelligent than the general population.

- Rob

mitchell_pgh · Apr 10, 2004, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by busket68:
This is why I saw reloaded three times in the theater. Everyone disagreed with me, and said the movie was ****. Now that they actually ahve the time to watch it and pay attention to everything going on, they finally see the light, and say it's a good trilogy. God I love being about 6 months more intelligent than the general population.

- Rob

In my opinion, the second movie was crap to average at best, but the 3rd one reenforced the second one enough to make second one somewhere between tolerable and OK.

(oddly enough, I have the second one on DVD... and have only watched it twice)

I really like the first movie, but II and III didn't have that "amazing" feel to them.

busket68 · Apr 10, 2004, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I really like the first movie, but II and III didn't have that "amazing" feel to them.

Agree. I don't really know what was up...but the first one had a quite a few 'wow' moments...the first trinity bullet time kick.... the neo jumping over morpheus in the dojo... and the helicopter scene had a TON of kickass shots...the slow mo UNDERNEATH the heli with the bullet casings falling toward the camera.... the same shot where morpheus jumps and neo catches him.. and the heli hitting the building... all incredible shots. Reloaded only had ONE o those shots: Where morpheus kick's that stupid SUVs ass in. Revolutions: I don't remember any.

- Ca$h

mitchell_pgh · Apr 10, 2004, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by busket68:
Agree. I don't really know what was up...but the first one had a quite a few 'wow' moments...the first trinity bullet time kick.... the neo jumping over morpheus in the dojo... and the helicopter scene had a TON of kickass shots...the slow mo UNDERNEATH the heli with the bullet casings falling toward the camera.... the same shot where morpheus jumps and neo catches him.. and the heli hitting the building... all incredible shots. Reloaded only had ONE o those shots: Where morpheus kick's that stupid SUVs ass in. Revolutions: I don't remember any.

- Ca$h

The only "wow" moment I really had in Revolutions was when all those "Johnny 5's" with big guns were shooting up at the drilling machines and squid... but that got old fast.

The idea was amazing, but that scene where they all had their hands in the air almost made me puke. It was another example of where I felt they were focusing more attention on the CG and machines over the people. I don't relate to machines, but I can relate to people in machines.

mitchell_pgh · Apr 10, 2004, 03:07 PM

The WORST Johnny 5 Attack EVER!!!

Timo · Apr 10, 2004, 06:12 PM

For those who are interested in the philosophical dimension of "Reloaded" and "Revolutions", I found this link with an exhaustive yet entertaining analysis:

http://wylfing.net/essays/matrix_revolutions.html

Of course, if you think all the philosophical mumbo-jumbo got in the way of bullets flying, then you won't much care for the super-heavy-duty analysis therein.

busket68 · Apr 10, 2004, 06:39 PM

Just remembered something that pissed me off: How the hell did neo stop the squids from killing everyone at the end of the 2nd movie?!??! And how did he deflect all the fireballs when he and Trinity were flying towards the 'machine land'???? He wasn't in the matrix.... so I don't get how he had those powers.

- Rob

CaNdeSiGn · Apr 10, 2004, 07:07 PM

I think Neo was still connected somehow to the machine world... that's why he could feel them, and control them. I thought it may be an alternate matrix reality they were still in, otherwise, how did Smith enter the real world? but it isn't... I have to watch them again to figure it out... but something to do with being previously connected with the system.

Anyways.. my beef with 2 & 3 was mainly special effects. More specific... CG characters. I enjoy eye candy, and went to these for nothing more than a couple hours of escapism. However, the fight scene with 100 Smith agents pulled me out of the movie, back into reality, not because of the superman like abilities, but for the plastic look of the characters every time it cut from real shots to CG shots. All the computer graphic technology, time and money they put into the sequels, and they couldn't render something better? When you notice the CG rendering... the CG artists fail the effect in my opinion. On DVD, it was worse, as an HD TV picks up the colour imbalances between live footage and CG. Still a long way to go before we see realistic CG actors.

Otherwise, the movies are what they are, and weren't that bad... just my 2 cents.

Ozmodiar · Apr 10, 2004, 07:39 PM

The Oracle told Neo that his abilities extend beyond the Matrix, back to where they came from: The Source. In the real world, all of the machines are connected to the Source and that is why he is able to interact with them (shut down squiddies, blow up bombs). It's like a sixth sense, and that's why when he is blinded he can "see" the real-world Agent Smith. That's also why his mind acts like it is jacked in when he goes unconscious - his brain is basically broadcasting a signal into the Matrix.

Vader�s Pinch of Death · Apr 10, 2004, 08:27 PM

I just bought 2 & 3 and watched 2 for the first time since it came out. I didn't hate it as much knowing it was a part of the lead up for 3 but there is one part I can't stand.

The Neo 100 Smith fight is horrible. The first half is ok until he rips the poll out of the ground. You can see Neo turn into a BAD 3D character and the camera starts spinning around like some first year 3D students movie. You know the camera moments are totally impossible and it feels like you are watching a video game.

I am actually embarrassed to watch this scene with other people as you can see the shift to 3D so strongly.

busket68 · Apr 10, 2004, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
You know the camera moments are totally impossible and it feels like you are watching a video game.

That's the biggest problem with CG. When the camera angles are freaking IMPOSSIBLE, no matter HOW good the rendering is, it still looks fake.

- Rob

Vader�s Pinch of Death · Apr 11, 2004, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by busket68:
That's the biggest problem with CG. When the camera angles are freaking IMPOSSIBLE, no matter HOW good the rendering is, it still looks fake.

- Rob

It was more the textures on the clothing that was off.

Cellery · Apr 11, 2004, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
It was more the textures on the clothing that was off.

Not just that, the cloth physics just sucked. Especially in the Burly Brawl in Reloaded, Neo's real coat had some weight to it, but the CG Neo's coat looked super-fake in addition to the texture problems.