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Conceal Carry, the 2nd Amendment, & Vigilantism (Page 40)
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BadKosh
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Jan 12, 2015, 11:40 AM
 
Zimmerman really needs to go to a deep wilderness somewhere AWAY FROM PEOPLE! He needs to get rid of the guns for a while too.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 12, 2015, 12:53 PM
 
He needs to stop drinking too, obviously.
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The Final Dakar
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Jan 27, 2015, 02:46 PM
 
This is just crazy shit.
Miami judge finds fists a potentially lethal threat in Stand Your Ground ruling | The Miami Herald The Miami Herald
Tyrone Smith knew how to use his fists. Around his Miami Gardens neighborhood, the 19-year-old was known as the “Karate Kid” because he taught local children self defense and how to stand up to bullies.

But when Smith felt insulted and began shouting at neighbor Jason Kinsey, the confrontation did not end in fisticuffs. Instead, Kinsey, 20, fatally shot the unarmed teen — claiming he was defending himself against the martial arts expert.

A judge agreed. Miami-Dade Circuit Judge William Thomas last month ruled Kinsey indeed acted in self-defense, saying prosecutors are “discounting the enormity of Smith’s rage and the level of physical skill that Smith possessed as compared to Kinsey.”
Kinsey was the bullied victim and had zero duty to retreat. His fear of “great bodily harm” was real, even if Smith had no weapon in his hands, said attorney Richard Gregg.

“This case shows how the Stand Your Ground law is supposed to work and does work,” Gregg said. “It’s textbook.”
Witnesses differed on exactly what happened next. One neighbor said Smith just had his hands balled up and took two steps before the gunfire erupted. But Kinsey testified that Smith — shirtless, and brandishing no weapon — charged at him.

Kinsey fired two bullets, felling him at a range of just a few feet. His body fell on the sidewalk, never having been on the property.

But Kinsey insisted he fired because he was defending his home. Judge Thomas decided that video — which included Smith saying he would spread Kinsey’s “blood all over the street” — showed “Smith’s relentless determination to violently harm Kinsey.”
     
Chongo
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Jan 27, 2015, 04:32 PM
 
Profesional boxers and other trained fighers are held to a higher standard when it comes to fist fights. If Anderson Silva KSTFO he'll be going to jail a lot longer than if Anderson Cooper did it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 27, 2015, 05:18 PM
 
Judge Thomas decided that video — which included Smith saying he would spread Kinsey’s “blood all over the street” — showed “Smith’s relentless determination to violently harm Kinsey.”
That, combined with balling his fists and moving towards Kinsey, is a threat to life, right there. On video, no less. If Kinsey had ran would Smith have left him alone? I strongly doubt that.
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The Final Dakar
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Jan 27, 2015, 05:24 PM
 
His relentless determination didn't actually result in a swing or a karate chop, though, right? He was just very, very threatening.
     
OAW  (op)
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Jan 27, 2015, 06:22 PM
 
The video only shows the verbal confrontation and not the shooting itself. The key takeaways for me is the fact that Smith was very careful NOT to step onto Kinsey's property (because that's a BIG "no-no" in the hood) and that he was simply challenging Kinsey to come onto the sidewalk for some old-school fisticuffs ... man to man. Kinsey took the bitch-ass route and grabbed a gun instead of simply ignoring Smith or going in the house. But IMO this is the critical part ...

For prosecutors and Smith’s family, the case encapsulates all that is wrong with Florida’s controversial Stand Your Ground law: the teen was unarmed, challenging Kinsey to an “old-school” fistfight only after being repeatedly provoked.

“People use that to get away with murder,” said Smith’s grandmother, Cynthia Hill. “The law needs to be modified.”
So let's be clear. This stupid law allowed Kinsey to get off on a murder charge despite the fact that he instigated the confrontation by repeatedly provoking Smith and the fact that the physical conflict was easily avoided.

OAW

PS: The article only says Smith "studied karate". That does not necessarily make him a "martial arts expert" as Kinsey's defense team claimed. There is an urban myth that black-belts have to "register their hands as deadly weapons". But there is no legal basis for that. That being said, a judge may allow a jury to consider a person's military combat, martial arts, or boxing training when evaluating the facts of a case.
     
Chongo
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Jan 27, 2015, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post

OAW

PS: The article only says Smith "studied karate". That does not necessarily make him a "martial arts expert" as Kinsey's defense team claimed. There is an urban myth that black-belts have to "register their hands as deadly weapons". But there is no legal basis for that. That being said, a judge may allow a jury to consider a person's military combat, martial arts, or boxing training when evaluating the facts of a case.
As I said earlier.
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Profesional boxers and other trained fighers are held to a higher standard when it comes to fist fights. If Anderson Silva KSTFO he'll be going to jail a lot longer than if Anderson Cooper did it.
     
OAW  (op)
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Jan 27, 2015, 06:36 PM
 
^^^^

#1. Nothing in the article indicates Smith was a "professional" fighter or an "martial arts expert".

#2. How does this contradict the last sentence in my post above?

OAW
     
Snow-i
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Jan 27, 2015, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
^^^^

#1. Nothing in the article indicates Smith was a "professional" fighter or an "martial arts expert".
Generally Judges and a Jury are a little more reliable than a click-bait news article. Just me, I guess

#2. How does this contradict the last sentence in my post above?

OAW
If conflict were easily avoided, Smith should have easily avoided it. To me, the "bitch-ass" move was Smith attempting to instigate a physical confrontation of which Kinsey had no hope of "winning" and had a very real possibility of previous bodily harm/death.

Why was Smith in front of Kinsey's property? Why didn't he just go home?
     
OAW  (op)
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Jan 27, 2015, 06:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
If conflict were easily avoided, Smith should have easily avoided it. To me, the "bitch-ass" move was Smith attempting to instigate a physical confrontation of which Kinsey had no hope of "winning" and had a very real possibility of previous bodily harm/death.

Why was Smith in front of Kinsey's property? Why didn't he just go home?
Did you not see the part about Kinsey repeatedly provoking Smith? Did you not see the part where Smith kept it moving multiple times in light of this? It was only after Kinsey continued to instigate the confrontation that Smith challenged him to fight. It seems to me that if Kinsey "had no hope of 'winning'" the fight then he had no business talking all that sh*t. We also don't know if that's even true. There are all kinds of guys who study martial arts who get their ass beat on the streets every day. But if Kinsey was that concerned ... again why sell all those wolf tickets? To piggyback on Chongo's analogy that's like me calling Anderson Silva's mother a bitch repeatedly ... and then when he gets upset and challenges me to fight I grab a gun and shoot him ... even though he never stepped foot on my property. That's some BS anyway you slice it!

But let me put it to you another way ....

776.041Use or threatened use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use or threatened use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force or threat of force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use or threatened use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use or threatened use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use or threatened use of force.
Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

How is the highlighted part above with respect to Florida self-defense law not applicable?

OAW
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 28, 2015, 10:30 AM
 
How did Kepler instigate and repeatedly provoke?
     
OAW  (op)
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Jan 28, 2015, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
How did Kepler instigate and repeatedly provoke?
Later in the article it says this ...

He was also new to the neighborhood, having just moved into his sister’s house. The week before the shooting, he complained to his grandmother that Kinsey and his friends had been heckling him as he walked by on his way to the park.

“He wasn’t a person who liked to argue with people,” Hill said. “He said, ‘There’s these boys always bothering me.’”

On Aug. 24, 2013, Smith was walking past Kinsey’s home, where he was hanging out with a pal when somebody said something “vulgar” to him. Whatever the comment, it set Smith off and he “prodded the defendant to exit his property and fight him,” prosecutor Denise Georges wrote in a court filing.

Smith eventually walked away. Moments later, Kinsey said, he called a friend, who brought him a handgun, then opened the house’s gate “to entice Smith to enter his property.”
So Kinsey and his boys are repeatedly talking sh*t to Smith. And then we have Kinsey instigating Smith to come onto his property while he has a gun. By his own admission!

Later, Smith walked past again, this time accompanied by several children, including his 5-year-old nephew, carrying mats and other karate equipment. Smith, in a rage and using profanity, repeatedly challenged Kinsey to fight.

“Bring your ass right here,” Smith hollered to the armed man. “I’m in college, what the f--- you doing … you sitting there all day, every day … when can I get my one-on-one.”

According to prosecutors’ account, a neighbor implored Kinsey: “Take it to the old school. He just want to fight. Put down your gun and fight like a man.”

Smith shouted that he also had a “rifle at my crib.” He refused to go onto Kinsey’s property. “I know my legal rights … sidewalk is government property.”

Nothing happened at that moment. Smith left to take his nephew home. But he returned to the front of Kinsey’s house several minutes later.

Witnesses differed on exactly what happened next. One neighbor said Smith just had his hands balled up and took two steps before the gunfire erupted. But Kinsey testified that Smith — shirtless, and brandishing no weapon — charged at him.

Kinsey fired two bullets, felling him at a range of just a few feet. His body fell on the sidewalk, never having been on the property.
So Kinsey and his boys were talking sh*t to Smith earlier that week. Then on the day in question Kinsey and a friend talked more sh*t to Smith. Whatever was said was "vulgar" enough to cause Smith to challenge Kinsey to a fight. Smith walks away but Kinsey has a friend bring him an illegal weapon and then opens the gate to "entice Smith to enter his property". I'm sorry but you can't be the one holding the gun against an UNARMED person who refuses to enter your property ... and then shoot him dead because he's challenging you to put the gun down, exit your property, and fist fight man to man. Especially when you are the one who instigated the entire confrontation. That is bitchassness personified.

OAW
     
Snow-i
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Feb 2, 2015, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post

So Kinsey and his boys are repeatedly talking sh*t to Smith. And then we have Kinsey instigating Smith to come onto his property while he has a gun. By his own admission!
And what kept Smith from just walking on by and minding his own business? Talking shit isn't illegal. Responding with violence is. If I stopped on the street to challenge every dumb mother****er who talks shit to me to a fight, I'd expect to have gotten shot a long time ago.

So Kinsey and his boys were talking sh*t to Smith earlier that week. Then on the day in question Kinsey and a friend talked more sh*t to Smith. Whatever was said was "vulgar" enough to cause Smith to challenge Kinsey to a fight.
Well there ya go, Smith is the one who instigated the physical confrontation then. Shit talking isn't illegal. Fighting is.

You act as if Smith had no choice but to engage in a physical confrontation, or that Kinsey's shit-talking is legal just cause to threaten Smith with violence.

It ain't.

Smith walks away but Kinsey has a friend bring him an illegal weapon and then opens the gate to "entice Smith to enter his property". I'm sorry but you can't be the one holding the gun against an UNARMED person who refuses to enter your property ... and then shoot him dead because he's challenging you to put the gun down, exit your property, and fist fight man to man. Especially when you are the one who instigated the entire confrontation. That is bitchassness personified.

OAW
Well, apparently yes you can.

Smith should not have confronted Kinsey and tried to instigate a physical fight. Period. There's nothing more to say than that. Smith was trying to instigate/escalate and got what he wanted - he had just miscalculated his odds of "winning" that physical confrontation and ended up getting shot for threatening a property owner with bodily harm on his own property.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 2, 2015, 11:21 PM
 
It's a common theme in this thread, if someone threatens you with physical violence, or is even in the process of beating you up, even if you feel your life is in danger, it's "bitchassness" to protect yourself. According to OAW you're supposed to just take it "like a man" and if you get mangled, then so be it.
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OAW  (op)
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Feb 3, 2015, 02:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
And what kept Smith from just walking on by and minding his own business?
I presume you simply missed the part where Smith did just that several times. Scroll up.

OAW
     
BadKosh
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Feb 3, 2015, 04:05 PM
 
Looks like Fairfax, VA did something similar (killed an unarmed white guy who had his hands up and 5 of 6 cops said he didn't move before being killed)and covered it up for over a year.
Judge forced them to release over 10K documents about it. Glad I moved from that POS county in 2004.

Fairfax County police shot an unarmed man in his home and they won’t say why - The Washington Post

John Geer's family wants answers in Springfield shooting
     
Snow-i
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Feb 8, 2015, 01:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I presume you simply missed the part where Smith did just that several times. Scroll up.
But the time he got killed, he didn't do that.
     
Snow-i
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Feb 8, 2015, 06:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Looks like Fairfax, VA did something similar (killed an unarmed white guy who had his hands up and 5 of 6 cops said he didn't move before being killed)and covered it up for over a year.
Judge forced them to release over 10K documents about it. Glad I moved from that POS county in 2004.

Fairfax County police shot an unarmed man in his home and they won’t say why - The Washington Post

John Geer's family wants answers in Springfield shooting
This one seems absolutely wrong. No where are any cops or anyone saying the man put up a fight or somehow provoked the lethal event, and the only description of events we're given is that he surrendered a good half hour before they killed him, and let him bleed out before administering any medical attention. Lazy. Lethally lazy.
     
BadKosh
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Feb 8, 2015, 09:19 AM
 
I left Fairfax county in 2004 because the county had become an overpriced, poorly run county. Road maintenance was not being done, but cops always had new cars and toys. They are just west of DC, and many political types call it home. Their school teachers were always being recorded trying to indoctrinate kids to the Lib-stooge ideals too. I still have to drive through it to get home and I find it most irritating as to how long it takes their cops to clear an accident out of the road.
     
BadKosh
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Feb 9, 2015, 02:14 PM
 
ANOTHER "INCIDENT"

A 37-year-old woman has died after deputies in Fairfax County used a stun gun on her while she was in custody.

Natasha McKenna of Alexandria was taken off life support Sunday, five days after she was stunned at the Fairfax County jail, the Fairfax County Sheriff's Office said in a news release.
McKenna was in the process of being transported from the Fairfax County jail to the Alexandria city jail Tuesday when deputies say she failed to comply with their commands and resisted them. A deputy then used a Taser to restrain her, Lt. Steve Elbert said Monday.
After being stunned, Elbert said a medic checked on and cleared McKenna, and that she was then moved to another area of the jail, where she began experiencing a medical emergency. Deputies and medical staff began life-saving measures before McKenna was taken to a hospital and put on life support.
Elbert said minutes passed between when McKenna was stunned and her medical emergency but didn't know how many. "It was not an immediate thing,'' he said.
Elbert declined to say how many times the deputy stunned McKenna and where on her body she was hit. He also declined to elaborate about how she resisted the deputies trying to transport her.

The Fairfax County Police Department is leading the investigation into McKenna's death, agency spokesman Bud Walker said Monday. Walker also declined to discuss how many times McKenna was stunned or where on her body she was hit, saying that won't be released until the investigation is finished.

Fairfax County Sheriff Stacey Kincaid said in a statement Sunday that her office anticipates "a prompt and comprehensive investigation.''

McKenna had been jailed since Jan. 26 on a charge of assault on a police officer.
     
Chongo
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Feb 9, 2015, 09:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
ANOTHER "INCIDENT"

A 37-year-old woman has died after deputies in Fairfax County used a stun gun on her while she was in custody.

Natasha McKenna of Alexandria was taken off life support Sunday, five days after she was stunned at the Fairfax County jail, the Fairfax County Sheriff's Office said in a news release.
McKenna was in the process of being transported from the Fairfax County jail to the Alexandria city jail Tuesday when deputies say she failed to comply with their commands and resisted them. A deputy then used a Taser to restrain her, Lt. Steve Elbert said Monday.
After being stunned, Elbert said a medic checked on and cleared McKenna, and that she was then moved to another area of the jail, where she began experiencing a medical emergency. Deputies and medical staff began life-saving measures before McKenna was taken to a hospital and put on life support.
Elbert said minutes passed between when McKenna was stunned and her medical emergency but didn't know how many. "It was not an immediate thing,'' he said.
Elbert declined to say how many times the deputy stunned McKenna and where on her body she was hit. He also declined to elaborate about how she resisted the deputies trying to transport her.

The Fairfax County Police Department is leading the investigation into McKenna's death, agency spokesman Bud Walker said Monday. Walker also declined to discuss how many times McKenna was stunned or where on her body she was hit, saying that won't be released until the investigation is finished.

Fairfax County Sheriff Stacey Kincaid said in a statement Sunday that her office anticipates "a prompt and comprehensive investigation.''

McKenna had been jailed since Jan. 26 on a charge of assault on a police officer.
Is this in the right thread?
     
BadKosh
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Feb 10, 2015, 10:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Is this in the right thread?
Ya know. maybe not.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 24, 2015, 02:25 PM
 
I didn't realize this was still in the air.
Trayvon Martin: DOJ Set to Announce No Charges Against George Zimmerman - ABC News
ABC News has learned Martin’s family will soon be notified that the Justice Department will not be filing charges against George Zimmerman, who shot the 17-year-old after a confrontation in 2012. Thursday marks three years to the day since Martin was killed.

Federal prosecutors concluded there is not sufficient evidence to prove Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman in Sanford, Fla., intentionally violated Martin’s civil rights, sources told ABC News.
Sounds logical to me.
     
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Feb 24, 2015, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I didn't realize this was still in the air.
Trayvon Martin: DOJ Set to Announce No Charges Against George Zimmerman - ABC News

Sounds logical to me.
Certainly not unexpected. I expect the same outcome in the Mike Brown - Darren Wilson situation. A federal civil rights violation is a very high bar to meet.

OAW
     
BadKosh
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Feb 26, 2015, 01:10 PM
 
OH WELL, President LIAR is going to ban AMMO for the AR-15 by executive action. What an ASS Canyon!
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Feb 26, 2015, 01:23 PM
 
Thankfully that'll be overturned quickly.
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BadKosh
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Feb 26, 2015, 03:50 PM
 
I dunno.... Anyone who challenges gets called names by the MSM. Too many cowards. Its not restricting your right to own a gun, just the bullets. Liberal stooges are OK with it.
     
OAW  (op)
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Feb 26, 2015, 05:20 PM
 
I suppose a link would be too much to ask?

OAW
     
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Feb 27, 2015, 11:44 AM
 
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 27, 2015, 11:54 AM
 
I can't tell if it overblown, misrepresented or what.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/us...ts-appeal.html
Is an ATF restriction an executive order? Is it a ban on all AR-15 ammo?
     
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Feb 27, 2015, 01:53 PM
 
It's a ban on a certain type of AR-15 ammo, and completely pointless, but like anything else the media is ignorant and enflaming the issue. This will be struck down, the NRA is already on it, so I'm not even sure why a federal agency is expending energy to do this. Are they bored?
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BadKosh
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Feb 27, 2015, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I suppose a link would be too much to ask?

OAW
Too lazy to use Google?
     
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Feb 27, 2015, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Too lazy to use Google?
Not at all. Which I did. I was just trying to give you the opportunity to provide a quote and a source so that your characterization of the issue might have some semblance of accuracy. But true to form you make a post implying that all AR-15 ammo is being banned by Obama's executive action when it's only the armor piercing variety opposed by police departments around the country.

From Chongo's citation above ...

At issue is so-called "armor-piercing" ammunition, an exemption for those bullets mostly used for sport by AR-15 owners, and the recent popularity of pistol-style ARs that use the ammo.

The inexpensive 5.56 M855 ammo, commonly called lightgreen tips, have been exempt for years, as have higher-caliber ammunition that also easily pierces the type of soft armor worn by police, because it's mostly used by target shooters, not criminals. The agency proposes to reclassify it as armor-piercing and not exempt.

But now BATFE says that since the bullets can be used in semi-automatic handguns they pose a threat to police and must be banned from production, sale and use
. But, as Goodlatte noted, the agency offered no proof. Federal agencies will still be allowed to buy the ammo.
It's cool to disagree with this action. But don't imply this is some sort of wholesale ban on all AR-15 ammo.

OAW
     
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Feb 27, 2015, 05:35 PM
 
So we can only buy the ammo that's not allowed by the Geneva Convention?
     
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Feb 27, 2015, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Thankfully that'll be overturned quickly.
In the meantime he's pushing up the prices. They probably know it won't stand, but the market disruption in the meantime is having the desired effect.
     
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Feb 27, 2015, 07:01 PM
 
Chris Rock nailed it right on the head!

Originally Posted by Chris Rock
We don't need no gun control ... we need bullet control!


OAW
     
BadKosh
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Feb 28, 2015, 07:36 AM
 
I wonder what bullets will go on the list next? And after that. And after that.
     
 
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