[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

He announced some "secret" features they weren't able to show yet at WWDC 2006. In reality, those features probably just were too buggy to be ready to demo at the time.

I used to think so, but I'm now convinced that Stacks, Finder with CoverFlow, and QuickLook are the secret features. QuickLook is far more powerful than we expected. No one expected PDF page-flipping or movie-playing inside of CoverFlow. It's quite impressive.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I used to think so, but I'm now convinced that Stacks, Finder with CoverFlow, and QuickLook are the secret features. QuickLook is far more powerful than we expected. No one expected PDF page-flipping or movie-playing inside of CoverFlow. It's quite impressive.

I agree...Stacks, Cover Flow and Quick Look are perhaps the most powerful features of Leopard.

Cover Flow and Quick Look will actually revolutionize the way people browse files. Combined with Spotlight searching in the Finder, you've got the most amazing way to find files.

Stacks are just a new better way to represent folders in the Dock. I remember myself and others making mockups of a similar way to browse folders or collections from the Dock...I'm glad it's been added to Mac OS X. Put your Application folder in the Dock or a folder of aliases of your favorite apps and you've got yourself a nice launcher.

[0157988944]

Positive points time:

While I don't know if it's wort $129, there are tons of features in this edition of OS X that are great, big and small.

- New Finder- I love iTunes and an iTunes style finder will be the shiz. Additionally, QucikLook and the fact that icons are thumbnails of documents will be great

- Automator UI Recording and Playback- Now I don't have to sift through Automator's (small) list of actions to get what I want. I just do it, and "boom" it's a workflow.

- Dashboard Web Clip- for obvious reasons... any website is a widget.

- Stacks- though I wish we could assign Stacks one icon as opposed to the mishmash of icons with an arbitrary one on top, Stacks are a great way to keep my desktop clean.

- Path Bar- thank God!

- Grid Spacing- Thanks again, God!

- Dynamic iCal Icon- I still won't use iCal, but I'll keep it on my dock for the date

- iChat- Where to begin?
-- Backdrops- If they work right, that's way too cool...
-- Screen Sharing- Great for... everything!
-- Invisibility- Yes!
-- Multiple Logins- YES!
-- Tabbed Chats- YESS!!
-- iChat Theater- Don't know how much I'll use it, but a great tool.

- Mail 3.0- In general, some great little add-ons.

- Photo Booth- Great new features... Now I'll play with it for TWO hours before never opening it again

- Display Sleep Hot Corner- Can't believe it took them this long to add some way to manually sleep your display, but I love it!!!

- And of course, Spaces, QuickLook, and all the other touted features are cool... except Time Machine. I really don't see much application for myself... I have never once needed to go bak in time, but I can see how it's great for some people.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Actually the Finder has the blue ones and black ones;

What black ones?

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

I know this is the File menu, but what if this was an application I was not familiar with? Why isn't the menu title from which the menu is pulled down highlighted any more?

Look! Apple already fixed it.

[kmkkid]

I too was hoping for a better look and surprise secret features, but it's painfully obvious now that isn't going to happen when Leopard has already gone to printing - probably last week.

[TheoCryst]

Am I the only one who really doesn't see the big deal about scroll bars? Yes, they are gel-y and blue, while most of the rest of the interface is darker and more muted. So what? They aren't God-awful to look at, and they don't clash with the rest of the bright blue highlights in the OS (menu highlights, text selection, et cetera). Leopard is, in my humble opinion as a part-time developer and a man who is very picky about his computer, very elegant and refined in appearance. Perfect? Of course not! Neither was Tiger, and neither was OS 9's Platinum. But two weeks after we get our hands on it, we'll hardly notice the scroll bar inconsistency, and just see it as the evolution of Aqua: a dark interface with bold highlights.

And yes, I've fiddled with 9a527 (but not 9a559), so I'm not just pulling this out of my ass.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

I still think there might be hope for new scrollbars.

Scenario A) The screenshots were made from 9A559, because it would take a bit of time to make all these images. Then the "internal GM Build" could have the new scrollbars.

Scenario B) They switch up the scroll-bars right before the GM is declared, as a little Easter Egg for folks.

This is going from funny to scary. It sounds exactly like the 10.0 build numbers fuss where even though they had the same build number "one had the debug code removed and window resizing was fast" and the other was "slow and with debug code."

Oh and repairing permissions helped.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

So up until the latest Beta how well did photoshop CS3 work with it?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

This is going from funny to scary. It sounds exactly like the 10.0 build numbers fuss where even though they had the same build number "one had the debug code removed and window resizing was fast" and the other was "slow and with debug code."

Oh and repairing permissions helped.

It really is. And everybody is going to be just as sucker-punched when it turns out Leopard was exactly what Apple said all along.

[voodoo]

I bet the Finder will still suck. Anything else would just be out of character for Apple.

Who knows what Apple is doing on UI/aesthetic development. Ever since OS X was released.. it has been a bit fuzzy.

The underlying tech will be most excellent, but the OpenGL drivers will still suck compared to Windows. So will Java.

People will defend this.

10.6 will then be released in 2010 and we will all hope for a new Finder that doesn't suck. And that that the 10.0 Aqua look will have been completely replaced with something less tacky.

The traffic lights will still be there though.

V

[MartiNZ]

We have to wait until 2010 for tabbed windows in Finder?

[pheonixash]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

iCal as them too. Most of the iApps that don't use the Extras.rsrc do. The others do not.

Where exactly?

Only iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie have them. And neither of them is even technically an app of the OS. So no, Aqua doesn't seem to be dead yet.

[Spliff]

Smartest post I've seen yet.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I bet the Finder will still suck. Anything else would just be out of character for Apple.

Who knows what Apple is doing on UI/aesthetic development. Ever since OS X was released.. it has been a bit fuzzy.

The underlying tech will be most excellent, but the OpenGL drivers will still suck compared to Windows. So will Java.

People will defend this.

10.6 will then be released in 2010 and we will all hope for a new Finder that doesn't suck. And that that the 10.0 Aqua look will have been completely replaced with something less tacky.

The traffic lights will still be there though.

V

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I bet the Finder will still suck. Anything else would just be out of character for Apple.

If you're a spatial Finder weenie, sure. A lot of the actual problems are universally said to be fixed, though.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

The underlying tech will be most excellent, but the OpenGL drivers will still suck compared to Windows.

Windows has good OpenGL drivers? It's not strongly focused on DirectX?

Originally Posted by voodoo 

So will Java.

What, you expect Apple to make Java not suck when Sun has been failing all these years?

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Windows has good OpenGL drivers? It's not strongly focused on DirectX?

Windows has had better native support for Open GL for years and much more mature drivers.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

all the other touted features are cool... except Time Machine. I really don't see much application for myself... I have never once needed to go bak in time, but I can see how it's great for some people.

You don't back up your data?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TheoCryst 

Am I the only one who really doesn't see the big deal about scroll bars? Yes, they are gel-y and blue, while most of the rest of the interface is darker and more muted.

Agreed.

I'm not sad to see brushed metal go, but I have to admit that all these terrible terrible inconsistencies NEVER hampered my daily work.

Flash ads are FAR worse.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Nope. I posted a Finder screenshot and mockup earlier in this thread that demonstrates this objectively. I know you have seen those since you commented on them

I can't remember whether it was his comment, but one of the comments on your mockup was that the iTunes scrollbars and the tab highlights clash like hell, and that the Aqua scrollbars actually match way better.

So much for "objective" design opinion.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

No it doesn't.

The've never played that game with a phone before either at one time. Or an iPod before. Or even a Mac before at one time. There is a first for everything. Fact is, Apple has a habit of keeping secrets to the last minute. Jobs said he was doing so in this very OS. Jobs has yet to announce or say what that secret was. Anyone that claims it was "this or that" is just guessing.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

This is going from funny to scary. It sounds exactly like the 10.0 build numbers fuss where even though they had the same build number "one had the debug code removed and window resizing was fast" and the other was "slow and with debug code."

The ONLY way these two things are alike are because in both cases the customers were disappointed at what Apple was calling the final version. 10.0 because of it's slowness, and 10.5 because of it's frankenstein of a GUI. Thats the ONLY similarities. Changing code in a OS is quite a bigger deal than hitting copy and paste and changing graphics. Not that you would know anything about GUI modifying in OS X.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It really is. And everybody is going to be just as sucker-punched when it turns out Leopard was exactly what Apple said all along.

And like I said Chuck, If Apple doesn't fix it's GUI by the time it's released, and Jobs doesn't have anything "special" to show off, I will admit I was wrong. That part doesn't bother me. The Part that Apple would leave it's OS looking the way it does bothers me. Either 10.5 was rushed, and isn't finished properly. Or there will be changes.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

If you're a spatial Finder weenie, sure. A lot of the actual problems are universally said to be fixed, though.

So if you have legitimate gripes about the Finder's horrible mixed look, you are now a spatial Finder weenie. Come on Chuck. You know better than to act this way.

Originally Posted by analogika 

but I have to admit that all these terrible terrible inconsistencies NEVER hampered my daily work.

Hampered no. Made it less joyful to use? Sure. Expecting Apple after 8 years to finally get a solid unified GUI into OS X and them still not? Yeah I, and many others that I have pointed out are just bewildered at Apple's choice if no changes are going to be made.

We used to use consistency as a bragging point against Window's cluttered GUI. Now some people in here are making excuses for it. Just like the Window apologists were back then.

At least I am being consistent. Something Apple hasn't done in a long time.

I am sure they have most of their GUI designers working on the iPhone.

Having a slew of applications of their own using a completely different GUI than the OS is just obnoxious. Linux boxes have been having a more consistent GUI than Apple lately.

And instead of just rallying against ME because *I* am the one complaining, people should actually be writing to Apple.

I just saw a petition last night to fully "Unify" the OS. That if this is how 10.5 will show up, Apple kicked themselves in the ass. And I agree.

I still have hope. Because Jobs has never announced the "Secret" no matter how many of you claim it's something else. Guesses are guesses and they will be treated as such. I have hope, not that I am right. I have hope that Apple should do the right thing.

If not, I will surely be hacking the GUI of that Frankenstein just like I did way back when. When people were pissed off about Aqua's look when it first came out.

And no, it wont require any APE or system patches.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I can't remember whether it was his comment, but one of the comments on your mockup was that the iTunes scrollbars and the tab highlights clash like hell, and that the Aqua scrollbars actually match way better.

So much for "objective" design opinion.

Um they DO match better. Look the folders up in high res. Their design and Aqua simply clash as ideas.





If you can't tell that the scrollbar in this screenshot is simply out of place with the rest of the theme in this next screenshot. Then just stop looking at them all-together. You wont be able to see it. And it's not because it doesn't clash with the rest of the GUI. It does.



And when he posted these the majority said the iTunes scroll bars looked better, and fit over-all with the theme. Go back and read where he originally posted it. Here I will post a few quotes. And this is just IN THIS THREAD.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

For me, the scrollbars are usable, as I am in graphite. They do look horribly out of place with Aqua though.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The second ones actually fit into the overall design (especially the new folder icons). The first ones don't.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Agree with Tetenal there. . .

Originally Posted by no shoes 

I'm not a great fan of the dark/light look of Leopard but since they're running with that then I'd like to see the iTunes look ported over. With iTunes, I'm meaning not just the grey look, but also the slider buttons you see in the equaliser, the metal pop-up buttons, scrollbars, etc. Those look good.

I realize not everyone in this forum has a eye for design, or what fits and what does not. And there will be people that eat anything Apple feeds them and say "Please so more?!?" regardless of what it is.

I am not one of those people.

Good article on it by one of our satellite forums.

Aqua buttons, Aqua radio-buttons, Aqua check boxes, Aqua sliders, Aqua scroll-bars??? - AppleInsider

"So we are probably nearing Leopard release candidate by now. So what in the blazes is up with all this Aqua? It's like a dirty band-aid on a healed wound. This has to be some kind of joke. If Leopard ships without Apple stripping it of all these Jellybeans® I'm gonna be surprised and annoyed. Pass the peace pipe, or whatever they're smoking at Apple, cause I think it's high time Apple killed the Aqua beast. Translucent menu-bars etc. I can take, but those buttons and scroll-bars are more than outdated in my book, and I'd bet I'm so not alone in this view. Apple, WTF?"

"I don't hate the aqua, but a change to something along the lines of the iTunes scroll bars and checkboxes that matched the new folder colors or something would be nice seeing how so much else has been revamped. I have a feeling that they'll be staying, though."

And if you do searches in Google, you will find people saying the EXACT same thing. Over and over again. It's just not me.

10.5 has a Frankenstein of a GUI right now. It's embarrassing for Apple.

As far as anyone else thinking the folders match the scroll bars...



If you still think that after looking at that pic. Don't ever go into design. It's not really subjective. If something clashes, it is obvious to those that have a trained eye. Some people just don't have the ability to see such things. It's almost like colorblindness.

I deal with people like that on a daily basis. We call them ad reps.

You can say 10.5 isn't going to change any at all. And that is one thing. But to say the look is fine, and isn't messed up, well that's another thing all together.

It's like Apple said "Lets take the sucky most obnoxious parts of Aqua, and mesh it together with this beautiful Unified theme"

What are the reasons for the other iApps having different scroll bars? This makes no sense what-so-ever.

I guess I could be an apple fanboy and act like anything they put out is "right" but when something is this glaringly wrong, I simply can't.

[MartiNZ]

Well ... OS X 10.2.4 introduced sunken traffic lights for brushed metal windows (as well as PDF workflows, quite the point point upgrade IIRC), so maybe, hopefully, the scrollbars could be 'fixed' in similar fashion? You know, rather than some time in the last 9 months.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Windows has had better native support for Open GL for years and much more mature drivers.

Windows doesn't have native OpenGL support at all.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MartiNZ 

Well ... OS X 10.2.4 introduced sunken traffic lights for brushed metal windows (as well as PDF workflows, quite the point point upgrade IIRC), so maybe, hopefully, the scrollbars could be 'fixed' in similar fashion? You know, rather than some time in the last 9 months.

I hope Apple does something. And soon. And yes, I remember that. It looks as if 10.5 is being rushed.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Um they DO match better. Look the folders up in high res. Their design and Aqua simply clash as ideas.

i did say "tab highlights", and I do note that you don't address them at all.

I was referring to a mockup of the system preferences posted somewhere earlier.

That may not have been Tetenal's mock-up, though, but somebody else's, so I apologize for the confusion.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

i did say "tab highlights", and I do note that you don't address them at all.

I was referring to a mockup of the system preferences posted somewhere earlier.

Yes that mockup tab highlight was waaay off. I think everyone can agree to that.

Here is said mockup you were referring to.



Except for the tab highlight, the rest looks great. (Though the "stop lights" still look out of place)

That may not have been Tetenal's mock-up, though, but somebody else's, so I apologize for the confusion.

No problem. I posted Tetenal's mockups above.

Apple just needs to hire swiz or mindfad or max to do their GUI work. And I am being dead-serious here.

All three of them have shown that they can produce better work the the people working for Apple right now.

Max's "Simple Aqua" is Apple's Aqua done right.

10.5 looks as if Apple is spending waaay too much time on the iPhone, and giving OS X leftovers.

I might make a mock-up of what I think OS X should look like later when I am at work.

That is if I am not too busy. ( I am sure you all will be waiting in anticipation...)

I told people way back when that OS X would lose the stripes soon. That they would see it was a poor choice. I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. That the stripes are gonna stay. And with each revision they have gotten less dramatic to the point were now, they are gone completely.

[0157988944]

Originally Posted by analogika 

You don't back up your data?

I do. I don't need Time Machine to do it for me. Without Time Machine, I can put other stuff on my Hard Drive, too.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Without Time Machine, I can put other stuff on my Hard Drive, too.

Are you sure about that? I got the impression TM does its thing within its own directories on the backup drive. If that's the case you could still have other stuff on the drive as long as you stay out of the TM directories. I'm not sure though. Does anybody have hard info on this?

[Kevin]

I'll be getting 10.5 for work JUST FOR the time machine feature. I have two 280g Firewire drives ready for it.

[Kevin]

And here is Leopard's new GUI..



BTW this is an interesting article.

MacDailyNews - Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard’s top secret ingredient: 3D everywhere, including new 3D Finder?

AND

Blackfriars' Marketing: Another vote on Leopard's secret ingredients: it's all 3D, all the time

[red rocket]

WTF?

‘it's Dictionary’?

Even if you ignore the itso, whose Dictionary are we talking about? I know they probably mean OS X's Dictionary (.app), but the way the sentence is constructed, you'd think it was the internet's or Wikipedia's dictionary.

‘beautifully laid out‑results’?

lol

I mean, really.

[- - e r i k - -]

Aren't you pulling that graphic out of it's context which is surely talking about Leopard?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

And here is Leopard's new GUI..



BTW this is an interesting article. Written today.

MacDailyNews - Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard’s top secret ingredient: 3D everywhere, including new 3D Finder?

Huh? WTF?

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:11 PM EDT

Today is October, not March.

[swiz]

Wow.
I haven't used any pre-releases of Leopard or even seen screens of it other than in this thread and on Apples website but they really do seem to be furthering the gap of GUI consistency as opposed to unifying it IMO.

The screens in this thread with the subtle gradient scroll bars, are far more of a unified look than Aqua scroll bars. Its almost as if Apple (:Steve) wants to move away from Aqua but cant completely for whatever reason so he insists on leaving pieces lying around in the GUI.

Those new window widgets look so "Windowsy" its ridiculous. They really look like an M$ attempted copy of Aqua, maybe this is intentional to draw more PC users LOL.

Im not totally sure if I am just really over Aqua or if its the mismatch of elements in the Leopard sreenshots but I think the new look, minus all the Aqua elements, is a more appealing GUI- less confusing too. If they modeled their widgets after those light gradient blue scroll bars and buttons too it would look much nicer... but wait a minute, I do believe a themes already exists for Tiger in this manner. Can anyone pinpoint the theme Im referring to? Can't remember its name, I havent been around for a while.

[Big Mac]

Wow, welcome to this thread, Swiz. We've heard a lot about you.

[JLL]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Fact is, Apple has a habit of keeping secrets to the last minute.

Fact is that you never proved that. The only examples you had was changes from one build to another that was months apart.

Stop it now! Mac OS X 10.5.0 will look exactly like it does on Apple's site.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

10.5 because of it's frankenstein of a GUI

I actually think that Leopard is the most consistent Mac OS X - ever!

[passmaster16]

I think what we see right now on Apple's site is what we are going to get in 10.5. What would Apple gain by keeping any new features secret at this point? They've already announced a ship date, and Vista has been out for almost a year. The only advantage I could see by not revealing all the features is if Jobs wanted to have a press conference to show them off. Considering the product is shipping next week, and we have not heard about any keynote, I assume it will ship as-is. Of course, I hope I'm completely wrong on this and Apple will surprise us.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It probably won't be preinstalled until a while after the 26th. You can get a free upgrade if you buy now, though.

What I want to know if this is an upgrade DVD specific to your Mac, or a generic Leopard DVD as you would buy from the Apple Store?

[0157988944]

Probably the latter until they start preinstalling.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by swiz 

Wow.
I haven't used any pre-releases of Leopard or even seen screens of it other than in this thread and on Apples website but they really do seem to be furthering the gap of GUI consistency as opposed to unifying it IMO.

The screens in this thread with the subtle gradient scroll bars, are far more of a unified look than Aqua scroll bars. Its almost as if Apple (:Steve) wants to move away from Aqua but cant completely for whatever reason so he insists on leaving pieces lying around in the GUI.

Those new window widgets look so "Windowsy" its ridiculous. They really look like an M$ attempted copy of Aqua, maybe this is intentional to draw more PC users LOL.

Im not totally sure if I am just really over Aqua or if its the mismatch of elements in the Leopard sreenshots but I think the new look, minus all the Aqua elements, is a more appealing GUI- less confusing too. If they modeled their widgets after those light gradient blue scroll bars and buttons too it would look much nicer... but wait a minute, I do believe a themes already exists for Tiger in this manner. Can anyone pinpoint the theme Im referring to? Can't remember its name, I havent been around for a while.

And there you have it folks. From the GUI Punk himself. But of course I am sure swiz knows nothing of what he is talking about either.

BTW thanks swiz for coming by and giving us your expert opinion. And those scrollbars remind me of a theme you made not too long ago..

Originally Posted by JLL 

Fact is that you never proved that. The only examples you had was changes from one build to another that was months apart.

JLL I am not talking about just OS secrets. I am talking about SECRETS IN GENERAL. For example. No one knew what the iPhone, nor it's GUI looked like before Apple released it. There was GUESSES, but no one knew till the last day.

Stop it now!

Wow, you are getting hostile for no reason.

Mac OS X 10.5.0 will look exactly like it does on Apple's site.

AS far as you know. At least I am being honest when I say "I don't know, I am just guessing" anyone making definite statements about such a thing is simply being dishonest. Now by saying that, I too am losing doubt that Apple will fix this mess before the release. But I would never attempt to state it factual when I didn't know. That would be obnoxious.

I actually think that Leopard is the most consistent Mac OS X - ever!

It's a HORRIBLE inconsistent mess as far as GUI design is concerned right now. Those that DO make GUIs, and HAVE made them professionally have chimed in and even stated as much. There are many Apple web pages I posted (at least 8 different ones) stating the same thing. That the GUI is simply a Frankenstein, inconsistent mess.

Originally Posted by passmaster16 

I think what we see right now on Apple's site is what we are going to get in 10.5.

Probably, and that is sad. But I still have my hopes up. Not because I want to be RIGHT, but because I want Apple to be RIGHT. And right now they are WRONG.

What would Apple gain by keeping any new features secret at this point?

Features? Nothing. Looks of the OS? A lot. As I explained before. Everyone had a Windows theme and a web page that looked like Aqua by the time 10.0 came out, Aqua was dated. No new fresh look. If I was running Apple I would want to make sure it didn't happen again.

As far as Vista just coming out, that didn't stop MS from shortly after Aqua was announced they announced a new "Luna" GUI and rolled out XP.

The only advantage I could see by not revealing all the features is if Jobs wanted to have a press conference to show them off.

Well he claims he was keeping a feature "secret" and he has yet to announce what that was. Even though we have people here that claims to know exactly what he was talking about, but have no proof to back it up. In other words, they are treating guesses as facts.

Of course, I hope I'm completely wrong on this and Apple will surprise us.

I hope so too. So do a lot of people. Because if the OS looks the way it does in teh screenshots on teh page, they are giving us a real stinker. And it's obvious that 10.5 was rushed if thats the case.

If 10.5's GUI doesn't get updated, expect it to by 10.5.2. Enough people will complain. Apple will eventually do something about it.

Just like they did when people complained about the stripes, and brushed metal.

Of course I was told back then that those two things were part of the new OS now, and that I better get used to it. That Apple wasn't gonna change it after just putting out a new OS.

And those people were wrong. I'd be curious to go back and look and see as who exactly those people that told me that were. It could be entertaining.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Are you sure about that? I got the impression TM does its thing within its own directories on the backup drive. If that's the case you could still have other stuff on the drive as long as you stay out of the TM directories. I'm not sure though. Does anybody have hard info on this?

I see absolutely no reason why somebody couldn't have other stuff on the drive.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay
No it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The've never played that game with a phone before either at one time. Or an iPod before. Or even a Mac before at one time. There is a first for everything. Fact is, Apple has a habit of keeping secrets to the last minute. Jobs said he was doing so in this very OS. Jobs has yet to announce or say what that secret was. Anyone that claims it was "this or that" is just guessing.

You're misquoting me. I was talking about how iCal does not have the iTunes scroll bars.

However, since you brought it up... Jobs never said they were keeping secrets to the last minute for Leopard. He only said at WWDC06 that they have some top secret stuff that they won't show during WWDC06. Check the keynote yourself at 29:20 from Apple - QuickTime - WWDC 2006

Originally Posted by Kevin 

JLL I am not talking about just OS secrets. I am talking about SECRETS IN GENERAL. For example. No one knew what the iPhone, nor it's GUI looked like before Apple released it. There was GUESSES, but no one knew till the last day.

We all knew what it looked like before they released it since it was demoed at MacWorld 2007 over six months before it was for sale.

[Big Mac]

Perhaps there's a secret routine that replaces all depreciated UI elements with brand spanking new unified ones when the system clock rolls over to the 26th.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

JLL I am not talking about just OS secrets. I am talking about SECRETS IN GENERAL. For example. No one knew what the iPhone, nor it's GUI looked like before Apple released it. There was GUESSES, but no one knew till the last day.

That's even more wrong and useless than claiming that the changes from DP3 to 10.0 were "last-minute" "surprises". EVERYBODY know what the iPhone and its GUI looked like MORE THAN SIX MONTHS BEFORE IT WAS RELEASED. Hardly anything at all changed between the January presentation and actual release.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Are you sure about that? I got the impression TM does its thing within its own directories on the backup drive. If that's the case you could still have other stuff on the drive as long as you stay out of the TM directories. I'm not sure though. Does anybody have hard info on this?

Time Machine backs up to a single folder. You can do whatever you want with the rest of the drive.

From Apple - Mac OS X Leopard - Features - Time Machine

The moment you choose a Time Machine drive, a single folder is created on the drive. Inside this folder is a subfolder for each Mac being backed up. (Yes, multiple Mac systems can share the same backup drive.) And within each subfolder is another list of folders — one for every backup performed on that Mac. Time Machine uses a standard file system to store all of its information. Nothing hidden anywhere.

And it doesn't have to be to an external drive.

You can designate just about any HFS+ formatted FireWire or USB drive connected to a Mac as a Time Machine backup drive. Time Machine can also back up to another Mac running Leopard with Personal File Sharing, Leopard Server, or Xsan storage devices.

Even though it doesn't say it on the features page, you can also back up to another partition (not wise) or internal disk.

[robre]

Does it seems strange that Apple's info on Leopard has very few movies? Normally there are all kind of movies demonstrating the features of the OS.

[Spirit_VW]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

It's a HORRIBLE inconsistent mess as far as GUI design is concerned right now. Those that DO make GUIs, and HAVE made them professionally have chimed in and even stated as much. There are many Apple web pages I posted (at least 8 different ones) stating the same thing. That the GUI is simply a Frankenstein, inconsistent mess.

Good grief. Overdramatic much?

Personally, I think Leopard looks great. Seems way more consistant than most every other version of OS X, frankly. Would it look better with the iTunes scrollbars? Maybe, yeah, though I think the Aqua ones look just fine. To go around screaming at people on forums about how "HORRIBLE" and "Frankenstein" and "embarassing" Leopard's interface skin is because of the Aqua scrollbars, well, that just strikes me as more than a touch over-the-top.

Apple must be doing pretty well if you're blowing gaskets over the stinking *scrollbars.*

[Sean Nichol]

Mac OS X is Aqua, period. With Leopard we are seeing an evolution in a cleaner, neater, tighter Aqua-- but still Aqua, in all of its lickable, glossy wonder.

The iLife GUI is slightly different in the fact that it is seeming to achieve a slightly more "professional" feel while at the same time allowing the user to still feel connected to OS X as a whole. Basically, Aqua with most of the gloss toned down to a more transparent matte finish.

Then there are the Pro Apps, which are intended to be used by professionals, for professionals. These apps are most likely to be used in an atmosphere with less lighting, such as a sound stage, recording studio, digital darkroom, etc. Knowing this, Apple eased our aching eyes and made the entire GUI grey. Even so, the grey GUI of the Pro apps they still retain elements of Aqua to allow the user to feel connected to the overall Mac OS X experience.

So basically, I see Apple as trying to create 3 separate user experiences, unified by one operating system... Mac OS. Personally, I see "Aqua" as more of a digital brand than a GUI.

[mdc]

@Spirit_VW, Unless I'm misreading Kevin, I think he means Frankensteinesque in the same way that currently 10.4 is very Frankensteinsque because it has two different scrollbars.

iTunes comes out with a new dark unified look and along with the new windows it brings new scrollbars. The rest of 10.4 stays regular Aqua.

10.5 comes along and it's all dark unified, everything matches iTunes/iLife, and yet non-iTunes/iLife applications still have Aqua scrollbars?
That just doesn't make sense to me.


iTunes has the new scrollbars and other applications have the Aqua scrollbars; and yet they all have the same Unified look.

There should be one type of scrollbar, Aqua or iTunes. I don't care which it is. If Apple doesn't change one to the other, I hope someone else will.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sean Nichol 

Mac OS X is Aqua, period. With Leopard we are seeing an evolution in a cleaner, neater, tighter Aqua-- but still Aqua, in all of its lickable, glossy wonder.

The iLife GUI is slightly different in the fact that it is seeming to achieve a slightly more "professional" feel while at the same time allowing the user to still feel connected to OS X as a whole. Basically, Aqua with most of the gloss toned down to a more transparent matte finish.

Then there are the Pro Apps, which are intended to be used by professionals, for professionals. These apps are most likely to be used in an atmosphere with less lighting, such as a sound stage, recording studio, digital darkroom, etc. Knowing this, Apple eased our aching eyes and made the entire GUI grey. Even so, the grey GUI of the Pro apps they still retain elements of Aqua to allow the user to feel connected to the overall Mac OS X experience.

So basically, I see Apple as trying to create 3 separate user experiences, unified by one operating system... Mac OS. Personally, I see "Aqua" as more of a digital brand than a GUI.

Makes sense to me....