[headhog70]

About 2 months ago I was forced to make a decision. My Dell PC had a serious problem that I could not solve. Should I get another PC or make the switch to Mac? Vista made it easy to choose Mac. I now have a Mac Pro, Mini, and MacBook. After 2 months I can officially say the Mac OS is better. Actually, even to ask the question seems dumb. There is no comparison in my opinion. After years of maintaining my household full of PCs for multiple users, it is a real blessing having Macs in the house. Have any of you tried to remove Spyware Sheriff from a computer? I don't ever want to go through that episode again. The only thing I miss from Windows is not being able to change the size of a window from all sides. The Mac only allows this from the right corner (as far as I know).

Finally, I am in the process of removing all data and programs from my HP laptop so I can give it away. At 12:30 PM, I started to reload Windows XP. It is now 3:00 PM, and the laptop just restarted for the... I don't know how many times it restarted. I lost track. Two and 1/2 hours to reload Windows and all the updates and Service Pack 3. I'm not sure if there are more updates to go. I'm going to put it by the curb and hope someone stops and takes it away. This should be enough evidence to prove which operating system is better.

Now, whenever anyone asks me if the Mac is really better, I just smile and give a slight nod.

[iRebound]

Awesome! I love reading stories like this

[ghporter]

You should have loaded SP3 BEFORE any other updates-it subsumes a lot of updates for SP2. Actually, I'd have simply nuked the hard disk-formatted it completely-and sold it with the HP restore discs.

But you mentioned one major issue that the order of performance wouldn't affect: it's an HP. I have not seen a modern HP laptop that did NOT have serious problems at one point or another. Sorry guy.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by headhog70 

After 2 months I can officially say the Mac OS is better.

2 months ?

What took you so long ?

Nah, j/k, glad to have one more convert for the Apple cult. One day we will rule the world. And then every computer will be a Mac. No more freedom to chose inferior OSes and hardware. Welcome to 1984

-t

[64stang06]

I agree, SP 3 should have been first THEN the other updates, if any But good job on the switch and welcome!

[beedie]

Windows has been playing catch up ever since they stole the windows concept from Steve jobs.
Have you ever met someone who converted the other way??
That should make it clear.

[Wiskedjak]

After 8 years of using both OSs, I can officially that MacOS is better than Windows in some regards, while Windows is better than MacOS in others. For me, they're pretty much equal, with each better suited than the other to different tasks.

Personally I've never had a virus problem on any of my PCs and I haven't used anti-virus software in over 10 years.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by beedie 

Windows has been playing catch up ever since they stole the windows concept from Steve jobs.

You mean after Steve Jobs stole it from Xerox?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

while Windows is better than MacOS in others.

What might those be exactly? Incubating spyware and viruses..?

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

For me, they're pretty much equal, with each better suited than the other to different tasks.

Your troll is weak, Wiskedjak...

[besson3c]

You cannot really have these OS arguments without relating them to the applications that they run. If you want to run a particular Windows only application, obviously Windows (or WINE) is your only choice.

Linux: good for network infrastructure type servers, developers, low cost desktops, appliances, mobile/handheld devices, users who do not want to buy commercial software

Free/Open/NetBSD: servers, developers, appliances (particularly network appliances such as routers)

Windows: games, financial applications, small businesses well-entrenched in the MS workflow with the appropriate staffing, certain other custom apps - be it client or server, developers who want to use a Microsoft language, users who are reliant on a GUI and monolithic apps which come with vendor support

OS X: developers, content creation, users who want an alternative desktop to Windows, advanced users attracted to the hybrid GUI focused/Unix sort of approach who are not tethered to a particular GUI, old-school OS 9 era Mac users

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Your troll is weak, Wiskedjak...

It's trolling to feel MacOS and Windows are roughly equal?

IMO:
- Windows is still marginally better than MacOS in web browsing (Firefox is a little nicer to use on a PC)
- Video encoding and re-encoding - MacOS still has nothing to compare with Gordian Knot
- Multiple monitors - MacOS may have had it first, but it's currently better on Windows (in Windows, menu bars move with the window, while in MacOS they stay on the primary monitor, making for an awkward user experience)
- Start Menu - yes, it's poorly named in Windows, but MacOS, without user customization, doesn't offer as easy a path to all of one's applications.

I know most Mac users wouldn't agree with most, if any, of these, but it is, of course, my opinion.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

IMO:
- Windows is still marginally better than MacOS in web browsing (Firefox is a little nicer to use on a PC)

How does this make Windows better? I agree that OS X is rather bloated and at a disadvantage in some areas (e.g. GUI responsiveness), but when you are using a single process and simply waiting for a 2D rendering to be generated (i.e. web browser rendering), I don't see how you can make the argument that a particular OS makes a web browser better.

- Multiple monitors - MacOS may have had it first, but it's currently better on Windows (in Windows, menu bars move with the window, while in MacOS they stay on the primary monitor, making for an awkward user experience)

You know that you can drag the menu bar around within the "Arrangement" tab of the Display pref pane, right?

- Start Menu - yes, it's poorly named in Windows, but MacOS, without user customization, doesn't offer as easy a path to all of one's applications.

I know most Mac users wouldn't agree with most, if any, of these, but it is, of course, my opinion.

See, this is why I can't stand many of these debates that sort of float back and forth between technical issues and UI issues, many of the latter of which are subjective. If you want to make a technical argument, make a technical argument. If you want to make a UI based argument, you need to bring in usability study and analysis into your argument - not just your personal opinion and preferences on the matter.

This is why these sort of debates usually result in people on both sides talking past each other.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

See, this is why I can't stand many of these debates that sort of float back and forth between technical issues and UI issues, many of the latter of which are subjective. If you want to make a technical argument, make a technical argument. If you want to make a UI based argument, you need to bring in usability study and analysis into your argument - not just your personal opinion and preferences on the matter.

This is why these sort of debates usually result in people on both sides talking past each other.

I am saying all this as my own opinion. But, perhaps I should mention my career is as a usability specialist for software that runs in both MacOS and Windows environments and I often see different usability issues caused by both environments. Both have their problems; I don't know a single usability specialist who will say MacOS is without problem.

[besson3c]

Then why not say that you think that OS X and Windows are about equal from a usability perspective? I'm not sure I'd agree with that, but at least it would provide some focus to the discussion (or any other discussion).

From a technical standpoint, I think that Windows is inferior to any Unix-based operating system, but I'll leave my justification aside for another time. These days, with Apple dropping many Unix conventions (e.g. their application based firewall), I can only make this argument partially in favor of OS X.

[mduell]

For the users I support? Absolutely; if nothing else it's like putting them in a padded room: so many fewer ways they can hurt themselves. Also the included software (iLife) and free training at Apple stores gets the job done, even if it's not great.

For me? The jury is still out; the limited hardware and software selection, hardware and software quirks, and hardware and software compatibility are major obstacles. I'll probably stick with Wintel on the desktop but my next laptop will be another Mac.

[Timo]

They both could be much better.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You know that you can drag the menu bar around within the "Arrangement" tab of the Display pref pane, right?

This is the one point I would concede - I'd love the option to have a menu bar on each monitor.

[Macanoid]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

You mean after Steve Jobs stole it from Xerox?

not quite true, as apple actually paid xerox.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

You mean after Steve Jobs stole it from Xerox?

According to a documentary I've seen, the head of this project requested `orders in writing' from her superiors to show Apple the technology. They did it. Apple didn't steal anything, the technology was given to them.

[peeb]

I don't think he means 'steal' in the criminal sense, but that Jobs got the idea from Park - he didn't come up with it himself.

[The Placid Casual]

OS X *is* much better... but how much is that worth in purely monetary terms? I often wonder...

$100? $200? $500?

How much of a premium can Apple charge for the privilege of using OS X before people will put up with windows? When you get a 2.4 Ghz c2d, 8600M GT Dell Vostro 15" for 600 Euro, when a MBP of the same price costs over 2000 Euro... how much of a quantifiable price can be put on OS X?

[Simon]

This is a Mac board. Obviously a vast majority of the users here will prefer OS X over Windows. And quite obviously some jokers will want to play devil's advocate and engage in a nice and juicy flame war. What's the pint of this thread? Are the mods going to keep it open just to see how long it takes for it to get really ugly?

[msuper69]

I don't give a rat's patootie who thinks one is better.

I've made my choice. I'm getting things done and having fun while doing it.

These point-counterpoint debates can go on forever. It's like religion and politics.

I don't bother. (well, except for this one time)

[richwig83]

...... i think YES is the simple answer!!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

OS X *is* much better... but how much is that worth in purely monetary terms? I often wonder...

$100? $200? $500?

How much of a premium can Apple charge for the privilege of using OS X before people will put up with windows? When you get a 2.4 Ghz c2d, 8600M GT Dell Vostro 15" for 600 Euro, when a MBP of the same price costs over 2000 Euro... how much of a quantifiable price can be put on OS X?

I just tried to configure a Vostro like that and I couldn't. But anyway, laptops under $1000 are invariably dodgy as ****. (Laptops in general are less reliable than desktops, but cheap laptops are absolute crap in my experience.)

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

When you get a 2.4 Ghz c2d, 8600M GT Dell Vostro 15" for 600 Euro, when a MBP of the same price costs over 2000 Euro... how much of a quantifiable price can be put on OS X?

The closest I can get to the cheapest MBP is a Vostro 1500 for $ 1,323.
I doubt that will ever cost EUR 600.

I bet the Vostro's battery life is pathetic, and it weighs much more than the MBP.

So, nice Apples to Oranges comparison.

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I just tried to configure a Vostro like that and I couldn't. But anyway, laptops under $1000 are invariably dodgy as ****. (Laptops in general are less reliable than desktops, but cheap laptops are absolute crap in my experience.)

Hehe.. Chuckit said a bad word!

I didn't say you could swear past the filter. —Chuck

[The Placid Casual]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

The closest I can get to the cheapest MBP is a Vostro 1500 for $ 1,323.
I doubt that will ever cost EUR 600.

I bet the Vostro's battery life is pathetic, and it weighs much more than the MBP.

So, nice Apples to Oranges comparison.

-t

The offer was on Dell France up to 2 weeks ago (finished around the 5th May sadly), when they replaced the Vostro 1500 with the Vostro 1510. The last of the Dell France 1500's were sold off at a nice discount... spec was:

2.4ghz c2d,
3 Gig RAM
250 Gig HDD
8600M GT with 256mb

All for 625 Euro (I have a screen grab somewhere too, as I did a costing), which at the time equated to just under $1000. I was *sorely* tempted to buy one, but figured I'd wait until the Vostro 1510 came out and see which was best... finding out the 1510 was inferior to the 1500 in many ways, and about 200 Euro more expensive. By this time, Dell sold out of the promotion spec machine, and put up a 1500 with 3100 graphics :/

As for build quality, the Vostro line is excellent, being aimed squarely at the business user. I have seen tons of the machines, and apart from one or 2 fit and finish issues, no dramatic faults. Battery life with the 9 cell battery equated to around the same as a MBP, with the standard 6 Cell battery, you would see 2-2.5 hours.

I guess the comparison is all the more stark in Europe, as the 'Appe Tax' is so high, but up to 2 weeks ago at least, you had the choice of a 625 Euro Dell having parity in hardware terms to a 2199 Euro MBP!

I had to ask at the time, was OS X worth 1500 Euro?

Originally Posted by turtle777 

So, nice Apples to Oranges comparison.
-t

Take a step back and look at the facts. The Dell Vostro and Apple MBP are both 15" laptops. Both made by large computer manufacturers. Both use the same CPUs, HDDs, logic board architecture. Both intended for the same usage (eg portable). Both accomplish the same things, be it email, web browsing, DTP, graphic design (etc etc).

The only significant difference is the supplied operating system (although it is rumored you can run OS X on the Dell too is you fancied breaking a whole lot of laws!), and the outside case design/implementation.

Saying it is 'Apple' to Oranges comes across as a closed minded fan boy... with the Intel Macs, the comparisons are closer than anyone thinks.

/Peace

TPC

(Not flame baiting, just trying to put some of this into perspective)

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Hehe.. Chuckit said a bad word!

Actually, I said four asterisks, allowing the reader to fill in the blank. It wasn't intended as a "please swear in this thread" kind of thing.

[turtle777]

As for build quality (components), I don't think the Vostro is comparable to the MBP.

And one think that Dell doesn't even openly disclose is the weight and size of the Vostro. I couldn't find it anywhere. How does THAT compare ?

-t

[mduell]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

And one think that Dell doesn't even openly disclose is the weight and size of the Vostro. I couldn't find it anywhere. How does THAT compare ?

Sure they do.

The 15" starts at 5.7 lb and the 17" starts at 6.5 lb; they each probably gain up to about a pound with a higher capacity battery and a more capable burner.

The difference in price (perhaps a third) isn't a deciding point for most people. They're either going to buy a Mac if they want OS X or buy a Dell if they want Windows.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Actually, I said four asterisks, allowing the reader to fill in the blank. It wasn't intended as a "please swear in this thread" kind of thing.

Ahhh, so totally derailing this (cause I don't really care if we can swear in here or not, just going off on a tangent here), if we instantly and involuntarily mentally substitute a swearword in for four asterisks, what is the difference between that and actually saying the word?

I find it funny that they frequently use the word "frack" on Battlestar Galactica when it is clear what they really mean to say... Why not just say the real word?

Anyway, back to the Mac/Windows debate...

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Then why not say that you think that OS X and Windows are about equal from a usability perspective?

I believe that's almost exactly what I said

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

After 8 years of using both OSs, I can officially that MacOS is better than Windows in some regards, while Windows is better than MacOS in others. For me, they're pretty much equal, with each better suited than the other to different tasks.

Personally I've never had a virus problem on any of my PCs and I haven't used anti-virus software in over 10 years.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Simon 

This is a Mac board. Obviously a vast majority of the users here will prefer OS X over Windows. And quite obviously some jokers will want to play devil's advocate and engage in a nice and juicy flame war. What's the pint of this thread? Are the mods going to keep it open just to see how long it takes for it to get really ugly?

I like my Mac better for some things; I like my PC better for others. I don't think it's flaming to say so. I've never felt the purpose of a Mac board to be praising the Mac, but rather to discuss it honestly.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Sure they do.

The 15" starts at 5.7 lb and the 17" starts at 6.5 lb; they each probably gain up to about a pound with a higher capacity battery and a more capable burner.

The difference in price (perhaps a third) isn't a deciding point for most people. They're either going to buy a Mac if they want OS X or buy a Dell if they want Windows.

Ok, maybe they show this only in the Large Business section.

At any rate, the cheapest Vostro 1500 15" is 6.5 lbs + let's say 1 lbs for the extended battery = 7.5 lbs.

MBP 15" weighs 5.4 lbs, that's 28% less.

Might not matter to everyone, but it *IS* a significant lower weight !

Even more, look at the size:

Vostro 1500: 1.65" x 14.12" x 10.59"
MBP: 1" x 14.1" x 9.6"

That's 45% less volume !!!

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I believe that's almost exactly what I said

I don't see anything in there that says anything about usability. Are you using this term differently? I'm using it in terms of HCID, not a generic "reliability" sort of label.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't see anything in there that says anything about usability. Are you using this term differently? I'm using it in terms of HCID, not a generic "reliability" sort of label.

It was a blanket statement. When asked for the areas that I felt Windows was better than MacOS, I pulled out some usability examples as well as some software availability and general performance examples.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

At any rate, the cheapest Vostro 1500 15" is 6.5 lbs + let's say 1 lbs for the extended battery = 7.5 lbs.

Is that really a fair comparison, though? The MBP doesn't have an extended battery option.

I agree with mduell - the OS is what makes the difference, not the hardware. I'm sure a lot of us would happily run OS X on a ThinkPad or a Dell if there were an officially sanctioned way to do it.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Ok, maybe they show this only in the Large Business section.

At any rate, the cheapest Vostro 1500 15" is 6.5 lbs + let's say 1 lbs for the extended battery = 7.5 lbs.

MBP 15" weighs 5.4 lbs, that's 28% less.

Might not matter to everyone, but it *IS* a significant lower weight !

Even more, look at the size:

Vostro 1500: 1.65" x 14.12" x 10.59"
MBP: 1" x 14.1" x 9.6"

That's 45% less volume !!!

Why are you comparing with the 1500 instead of the 1510? The 1500 doesn't even come with the current 45nm processors, while the 1510 does. The weight difference is about a pound/15% if you take the extended runtime battery, otherwise it's about a quarter of a pound (four ounces).

Everyone knows the plastic cased Dells are thicker than the aluminum cased MBPs; few people have laptop thickness as a CTQ. They're also significantly cooler on the outside, something a lot of people are sweating.

[Simon]

The Dell is heavier, thicker, and looks like crap compared to the MBP. So in terms of form factor Apple is the clear winner.

The hardware can be configured so performance will be comparable.

And in terms of OS for serious work it's either OS X or some flavor of Linux. The Mac does both fine, the Dell does one fine while the other is a hack.

The MBP comes at a fixed price. The Dell's price seems to correlate with the phase of the moon and fluctuates according to the time zone Mike Dell happens to be in. There is also some random noise to further confuse buyers. In general the Dell will be on the order of ~$500 cheaper. If you add extras the MBP comes with that difference could end up lower though.

Bottom line is if $500 are actually worth putting up with the downsides mentioned above. Let's be honest, it's not like the Dell offers stuff other manufacturers won't give you. All Dell offers is low prices. If you want quality notebooks from somebody else than Apple you'll be looking some place else than Dell anyway. So again, who's willing to put up with those things just to save $500? Nobody? Oh right, this is a Mac board. Most people here already chose not to opt for the Dell.

[cacruden]

Last year my previous laptop came to it's natural end... and I chose to go with a Mac OS/X laptop (I had 4 linux boxes, and one windows (sometimes Linux) laptop). I looked at the latest release of WIndows (Windows Vista) and it reminded me of MS DOS 4 all over again

I am happy with my choice (even though Apple has had some "Microsoft moments" with the OS patches). I had decided that I really had two choices - linux laptop, or mac laptop. I wanted the underlying operating system to be a unixish kernel. The reason why I chose the Mac laptop, was because it just worked. I did not want to go out and buy a laptop (high end) and find that something was not compatible with Linux.... so that left the Macbook Pro. I like Linux, but I have lots of experience with "getting it to work" - and although it has come a long way - I did not want to have to worry about "getting it to work". So here I am, a happy mac laptop owner.

[phoenix78]

I just think that the extra price you pay in a mbp pays off in the long run and mbp owners probably realise this 2 years later. Its not obvious at purchase time when say, a Dell or a HP, is brand new. mbp will hold its quality for quite a bit longer in my experience.

There are some extra benefits you get with mbp that go beyond the chip and ram and HD. LED screens, aluminium case, large touchpad, awesome keyboard, glowing keyboard lol... etc... To get these features on another laptop you would have to pay a whole bunch more and the price will be on par with mac anyway.

I have used vista and i dont really have issues with it. I could do everything in vista that i do with OSX. I just prefer OSX more and use windows when i need. OSX is just cleaner and simpler to use IMO. Lack of viruses and spyware... the 'spaces' features, backup, X11 environment for my work... vista just isnt as convenient 'out of the box' as OSX. But if i had to use vista i wouldnt be unhappy either and i prefer office and firefox on vista.

So its mostly the great hardware why i buy mbp. OSX and dual booting comes in close in second place.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I don't think he means 'steal' in the criminal sense, but that Jobs got the idea from Park - he didn't come up with it himself.

Think of it like a track relay. The baton got passed on to Steve Jobs not because he was accidentally there, but because he saw it as worth having.

Xerox just thought of it as an uninteresting stick, and were only too glad to have got rid of it.

Steve to his credit put a huge effort into finishing the race.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Why are you comparing with the 1500 instead of the 1510?

Because that's what the OP referred to, when he mentioned the EUR 600 price.

If we take the 1510, the size / weight disadvantage gets smaller, but so does the price advantage.

-t

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

You mean after Steve Jobs stole it from Xerox?

The GUI wasn't Jobs's idea, but Apple didn't steal it either. Apple paid for the right to use concepts developed at PARC. Jobs and his engineers realized the GUI was the future of computing. And make no mistake, the Lisa/Mac interface took the concepts Xerox came up with and developed them much further.

[Terrin]

Yes, and the inventors at Xerox borrowed many of the ideas from their former employer Douglas Engelbart (also the inventor of the computer mouse).

He in turn, borrowed some of his ideas from somebody else whose name escapes me right now.

Moreover, prior to Apple visiting Xerox, Apple was working on a GUI interface. It eventually made it's way into the Lisa Computer. Further, some of Apple's employees also used to work at Xerox far before Jobs visit.

Apple on the other hand paid Xerox to visit Parc, where Jobs was shown a GUI working on a $75, 000 dollar computer. Apple didn't even get to check out the source code for the OS. Apple then somehow managed to do what it has always done: take a good idea and make it better, miraculously making a GUI work on a sub $3, 000 machine.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

You mean after Steve Jobs stole it from Xerox?

[Roehlstation]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

You mean after Steve Jobs stole it from Xerox?

Steve Jobs PURCHASED it from Xerox. Xerox was just sitting on it with NO plans to do anything with it. We should be happy that he had the foresight to see the potential.

[darcybaston]

Asus was having a deal recently (friend ordered one) where the laptop comes with C2D, 3GB RAM, big dedicated video card, 18" widescreen, and Bluray drive for $975. Features for price, took my breath away. I went home to my Macbook 2.16ghz and had to say, "I still love you."

Having used MacOS 6 through 10.5.2, and Windows 3.0 to Vista, I've always enjoyed the Mac OS much more. I seem to get much more work done in MacOS Anything, I have more access to the hardware as available resources, and have fun doing it.

It drives me batty that I can't create 5 folders on a Windows machine with hotkeys like I can on the Mac, or I can't use the keyboard to get into file rename mode. It's so mouse addicted, it's like Microsoft in the 80s went, "ok, Macs have a mouse, and the only way we can one up that is to make absolutely everything mouse dependent, and I mean dependent. Let's invent the MouseOS to one up Apple's drag n drop stuff."

Plus, Windows has yet to figure out how to do window-redraw/refresh properly yet. Get a heavy process going, or high virtual memory use, and the UI falls apart. I've never seen OS X scroll-display an app's window while hard drive thrashing occurred.

That system maintenance crap XP does when a screen saver runs? God, I'm so sick of coming back to an idle Winbox computer only to wait for 3 minutes while virtual memory restores all my launched apps to a usable state.

And...

[King Bob On The Cob]

Directory Service SUCKS especially compared to Windows authentication schemes.

[Thinine]

Which directory service?