[BkueKanoodle]

I'm writing this on my PC laptop as my ibook is currently undergoing a reload of the OS. Looks like its gonna be a long weekend. I was trying to start lime wire when it kept unexpectedly quitting. I figured what the hell, I'll just restart. Restart and the little circle under the apple logo at the boot screen keeps spinning and spinning and spinning. Try restarting a couple times nothing. Restart using the apple-s key, running fsck, nothing . I start of an OS X cd, nothng for a very long time. Finaly get it to boot of the OS X cd, now the install only sees my second partition, the one with all my data on it. Because I don't have any os 9 cd's, or any other disk utilities, its 10:45 at night and I need my laptop noe, I have no choice but to format my data drive, put os X back on, hope that I can repair any damage to the first partition and then restore my data from backup.

Don't get me wrong, I love the apple its just a pain.
\
Any ways looking to replace my ibook 700 with an pb. I'm looking at either 12 inch pb sd or ti 867 pb sd. I don't want to wait for apple to get az new one out. Heres my question, hopefully someone out there has tried both.

I am a network engineer and spend a large part of my day administrating a Windows Network. There are some software I use that only works on Windows, and I don't want to have to rely on Microsoft RDP to use a windows machine, I'd much rather have VPC and be able to carry all my work with me without having to worry about network connections or airport range. Any one use both the 12 and 15 867 with VPC. Any big speed differences?

I also dabble in some programming, I want to do some Realbasic, but I also need VPC to run VB 6. I hardly ever use photoshop, I always plan on making some home movies of the kids and putting them on DVD (but I never get around to it)

Other then that, General purpose stuff. I love the form of the 12 inch, but that gorgeous screen and the promise of more power (maybe) are making me eye the 15 powerbook. Any suggestions?

[chabig]

I think you made some assumptions that didn't need to be made.

First, restarting is probably the last thing I would think of doing if an app crashes. Since the Mac OS provides full memory protection, a crashed app will not affect the system at all. The problem is likely the app itself, not the system. I'd try deleting the prefs, then attempt to launch it again. If that doesn't fix it, delete and reinstall the app.

Second, before you restart, try logging out and logging back in. That starts most everything again from scratch. Remember, the underlying OS should be fine. Sometimes logging in as a different user will help you narrow a problem down. If the app runs in a different account, it's not a system problem. It's a problem somewhere in the troubled account--again, probably a prefs problem.

If it still has problems, then I would run Disk Utility from an admin account and repair permissions. This seems to fix a lot of problems.

Finally, you say the circle under the Apple logo kept spinning and spinning. You don't say how long it was spinning, but I'd just let it go...for at least an hour or so, if that's what it takes. There is a chance that your machine was booting fine and you just got impatient. Your may have forced a reboot while the machine was doing drive repair and ended up hosing the partition yourself.

One interesting thing you said is that booting off the CD took a long time. Yes, the CD cannot be accessed as quickly as the hard drive, so it is slower. But we also know that rebooting starts the machine from a known state, and we know that the data on the CD cannot become corrupted. So again, your statement leads me to think that in your frustration, you were just a bit impatient. And I can see why you would be at 10:45 PM.

So perhaps your Windows background led you to a rather extreme solution to your problem (i.e. reformatting) that wasn't necessary.

For your other questions...I run Windows 95 under VPC 6 on a 700MHz iBook. It's satisfactory for me, but no speed demon. I understand the later versions of Windows run slower because they demand more resources. It's said that Windows 2000 is actually the fastest on VPC.

I love the 12" form factor too. Although I bet the 15" is faster, I don't think I'd notice the difference. If I were going to get the 15", I would wait a few months--you just know the Aluminum version is waiting in the wings. If you decided the Titanium is the one you want, I'd still wait, because when the Aluminum model is finally released, the price on the the Titanium will have to drop a bit.

Chris

[BkueKanoodle]

Actually, I had left the machine trying to boot for over 45 minutes. Maybe that wasn't long enough, but for me, thats unaccepatable. Furthermore, restarting, even macs, is a lot easier then going through the all the other troubleshooting, and usually mor efficient. 90 % of the time, it will fix the problem. Thats why its one of the first troubleshooting steps we teach our techs.

I may have a windows Background, but I'm not a dumbass when it comes to the mac. I've been using them since 1985 and recently made the switch full time back to OS X . I'v been using Unix for almost as long and I can tell you when something is screwed up, and this machine is Screwed up.

I ended up running disk utility on the 1st partition after I got my system back up, and while it could see the problem, it couldn't fix it. I end up having to reformat the partition to be able to use it. So I guess I did the right thing

Damn, I hate when I'm right.

[chabig]

OK. I'm glad you got it fixed.

I agree with you that 45 minutes of the spinning cursor is too long. I just got the impression that you were new to Macs...sorry.

I had a machine once last year that got so screwed up I had to reformat and reinstall. I don't know how it got that way. It was only once.

I still disagree, though, that restarting Macs is the way to fix problems. It was with OS 9 and earlier, but I don't think it is with X. The OS's inherent stability means the problem usually isn't with the system, so chances are that if you restart, you'll still have the same problem. Not always, but I think that's true the majority of the time.

Chris

[vmarks]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Actually, I had left the machine trying to boot for over 45 minutes. Maybe that wasn't long enough, but for me, thats unaccepatable. Furthermore, restarting, even macs, is a lot easier then going through the all the other troubleshooting, and usually mor efficient. 90 % of the time, it will fix the problem. Thats why its one of the first troubleshooting steps we teach our techs.

I may have a windows Background, but I'm not a dumbass when it comes to the mac. I've been using them since 1985 and recently made the switch full time back to OS X . I'v been using Unix for almost as long and I can tell you when something is screwed up, and this machine is Screwed up.

I ended up running disk utility on the 1st partition after I got my system back up, and while it could see the problem, it couldn't fix it. I end up having to reformat the partition to be able to use it. So I guess I did the right thing

Damn, I hate when I'm right.

Note: Alsoft's DiskWarrior has been able to repair things that Disk First Aid / fsck have not.

[dream1mac]

Alsoft's DiskWarrior has been able to fix alot of disk related problems exactly like the one mentiond in this thread. I work at a Apple Authorized Warrenty Store and I have seen a couple of those situations and in OS 9 norton could fix most of those problems but now in X DiskWarrior is it. I havent tried some of the other ones to heavely yet but in the most current issue of Macaddict they have a good article on four disk utility programs. Disk Warrior, Drive 10, TechTool and Norton.

[iBorg]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
I ended up running disk utility on the 1st partition after I got my system back up, and while it could see the problem, it couldn't fix it. I end up having to reformat the partition to be able to use it. So I guess I did the right thing

Damn, I hate when I'm right.

I'd second/third the motion to use Alsoft's "Disk Warrior" to fix most of the problems you'll face like this - you'll get this advice on almost every forum you read, and I've experienced this many times myself, when Disk Warrior fixes what any other repair utility (Norton's, Tech Tools, Drive 10, or Disk Utility) either can't diagnose, or can't fix. I never even try the others unless DW fails me - which hasn't happened!

Too bad you couldn't have tried this before going through the hassle of reformatting.

BTW, Alsoft has stated (at MWSF) that their Mac OS X version is coming this month - until then, the OS 9 version works, just more slowly. (You stated that you have an iBook - for the new AlBooks, which can't boot OS 9, users will have to wait for the new version.)



iBorg

[LosJackal]

I've been working with Unix boxes since eary 90's. I currently administrate and colocate my own Web servers. Apple taking the MacOS to be Unix-based was a godsend. I get the best of both worlds now.

I agree that simply rebooting a Unix machine is NOT the best way to troubleshoot. It might get you up and running again, but it didn't do a lick of good of diagnosing the problem and fixing it so it doesn't crop up again. If the problem is indeed a Preferences file or bad permissions, you can bet it will happen again.

I'm relieved that you determined it to be a disk problem. To be fair, any operating system will act funky with a disk problem. If you want a recommendation, I'd say have an small external firewire hard drive (20 GB or so) ready to go with a Mac OS X system and drive utilities on it. Then in case of trouble, you can boot off it and diagnose and usually repair any problems of your main hard drive since you didn't boot off it.

[BkueKanoodle]

Originally posted by LosJackal:
If you want a recommendation, I'd say have an small external firewire hard drive (20 GB or so) ready to go with a Mac OS X system and drive utilities on it. Then in case of trouble, you can boot off it and diagnose and usually repair any problems of your main hard drive since you didn't boot off it.

Thanks, I followed your advice, so I'm better prepared for the future.

I appreciate all of your advice on the Disk Warrior, and I will get it, but as my original post said, I had to fix this at 10:45 at night with no Diskwarrior available.

My one gripe about the ibook is they make the hard disk so hard to get to, other wise I would have taken it and put it in another machine. Why couldn't they made it a little easier, like say an access panel right under the HDD? Most other laptops have this. The last thing I wanted to to last night was try and keep track of 50 tiny screws.

[icruise]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:

My one gripe about the ibook is they make the hard disk so hard to get to, other wise I would have taken it and put it in another machine. Why couldn't they made it a little easier, like say an access panel right under the HDD? Most other laptops have this. The last thing I wanted to to last night was try and keep track of 50 tiny screws.

I think the main reason is that it was designed for education, and you don't want to make the hard disk 1) too easily damaged, so they encased it in a rubber mounting inside a shock-resistant shell or 2) too easily accessible, since a lot of kids will screw with things just because they can. Not to mention the risk of theft.

[BkueKanoodle]

Maybe, but then again, wouldn't they want to make it easier for the Education Support Personnel to fix damaged equipment, (Less time Consuming) Of course they want to control the market for Apple repairs. Oh Well, its working now, and I only lost 1 file. (Everything else had been backed up the night before)

[pnz999]

"Alsoft's DiskWarrior"

Is it a native OS X app?

[pnz999]

Norton System Works, Tech Tools, Drive 10,, Disk Warrior

I heard in order to run any of this diagonitic programs like Disk Warrior, I need to create a boot CD because those diagonistic programs cant run when OS X is running? is this true?

Are there any good native OS X diagonostic program?

[Burn]

Originally posted by LosJackal:
If you want a recommendation, I'd say have an small external firewire hard drive (20 GB or so) ready to go with a Mac OS X system and drive utilities on it. Then in case of trouble, you can boot off it and diagnose and usually repair any problems of your main hard drive since you didn't boot off it.

Yes, can you say - iPod?
Have had that purpose in mind since the first day I bought mine. Works like a charm.

Oh yeah and it still holds, organizes and plays my 8GB+ worth of music too

[rambo47]

Just wait for the 40 GB iPod rumored to be arriving any day now. Think of all the system files you can install on that! You could keep an entire Mac OS X volume on it, plus more music than any two people probably own. Hoo-ah!

[ivi]

For your second question, VPC will run faster on TiBook because of L3 cache.

[Phat Bastard]

To boot of my iPod, I need to do is copy the OS X System, Library and Applications directories, correct? Or can I get away with not copying the Library directory, say?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Burn:
[B]Yes, can you say - iPod?
Have had that purpose in mind since the first day I bought mine. Works like a charm.

[Mac Zealot]

I have both OS 9.2.2 and 10.2.3 on my ipod.

It is an AWESOME thing to have

BUT I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO BOOT OFF IT!

[fat mac moron]

"Furthermore, restarting, even macs, is a lot easier then going through the all the other troubleshooting, and usually more efficient. 90 % of the time, it will fix the problem. Thats why it's one of the first troubleshooting steps we teach our techs."

That statement makes it obvious you work in a mostly Microsoft-based environment

[BkueKanoodle]

Originally posted by fat mac moron:


That statement makes it obvious you work in a mostly Microsoft-based environment

No, memory leaks, run away process's, and misbehaving applications are not exclusive to a microsoft environment.

Sure I would think twice about rebooting a mission critical server, but I'm not going to waste 5-10 minutes, or more, diagnosing, or killing threads on a workstation when a simple reboot would do it, during which I can do ther things. I value my time, as I don't have enough of it in the day, and if I add up 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there, pretty soon, I have a lot of time back. Its called time management. I practice it daily, and I instruct my techs and the students at the College where I teach the same thing.

Furthermore, although I do work with a lot of Microsoft technology, its not the only thing I use. I've been using apples before alot of people knew what a Vic 20 was.

Yes I have my MCSE, MCDBA, MCT, MCSA & MCSD, but I also hold certifications in RHCE, LPI, CCNA, CCDP, CCNP, Solaris, (and soon to be CCIE god willing ) as well as over 15 years professional experience in the IT field. Don't make assumptions about me or where I work.

Originally posted by Ivi
For your second question, VPC will run faster on TiBook because of L3 cache.

I've know the L3 will make it run faster, but are we talking just a bit faster or, "oh my god, L3 where have you been all my life?!" faster?

[fat mac moron]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Yes I have my MCSE, MCDBA, MCT, MCSA & MCSD, but I also hold certifications in RHCE, LPI, CCNA, CCDP, CCNP, Solaris, (and soon to be CCIE god willing ) as well as over 15 years professional experience in the IT field. Don't make assumptions about me or where I work.

Ok, I won't make assumtions. Rebooting is NEVER assumed. Kill -9 HUP that process, but how could it ever be a initial option?

"Thats why it's one of the first troubleshooting steps we teach our techs."

That's the Microsoft way. Doesn't work? Reboot. One reboot can affect thousands of users in MY environment. You should be teaching your techies proper server management, rather than resorting to the "Control - Alt - Delete" mantra.

I have no college degrees, zero certifications, but enough common sense to know that there are other options when it comes to smashing the power switch.

[BkueKanoodle]

Obviously you don't have the common sense to read my post. I specifically said workstations, not mission critical servers.


And in my original post, it was not an runaway process that was causing the problems, but rather an app that quit consistently as soon as it started up. So Kill wouldn't have done any good, because it was dying before I could get to it.

[ivi]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:

I've know the L3 will make it run faster, but are we talking just a bit faster or, "oh my god, L3 where have you been all my life?!" faster?

I don't own 12" and can't compare it to my 1Ghz Ti. Before this computer I used to have a "667 VGA" with osx 10.1 and VPC 5 on it. I mostly used VPC for running linux, but tryed win98 and it was absolutelly unusable.

On this computer I got VPC 6 and win2000, it is way more than I expected.

On the older machine I wasn't comfartable running more than one VPC, independently on OS.

On this computer I can afford running slackware, debian and freebsd without x running on any of them - all at the same time with no problems. Nevertheless, If I reduce cpu perfomance I start lagging really badly.