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bobette · Nov 3, 2003, 06:32 PM

PowerBook G5 is 'going to be a while'

November 3 - 17:00 EST__ Dave Russell, director of product marketing for portables and wireless at Apple, recently discussed the possibility of a PowerBook G5 with ComputerWorld: "We certainly want to do that," he said. "But it's going to be a while. We think the G4 has a very long life in the PowerBook." He echoed that the main hurdle in getting a G5 processor into a laptop is the need to keep the processor cool. _

Source:

http://www.macminute.com/2003/11/03/powerbookg5

Ahaaa!! Gnf! Booya!

So will you naivete stricken Dudes out there just let go of the PB G5 at MWSF rumor? Please?

Just buy the Albook, it's an awesome machine.

Cheers!

bkb · Nov 3, 2003, 06:39 PM

He's in marketing, what the hell does he know

Bad news though

bobette · Nov 3, 2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by bkb:
He's in marketing, what the hell does he know

Bad news though

But as I said, they don't want to come out with the next George Foreman genital grill!

Me thinks they want it to rock like the G5 tower.

Patience will be rewarded! In, hmmm... 12 to 18 months?

Meanwhile, there's a bitchin' machine called the Albook!!

Scooterboy · Nov 3, 2003, 07:05 PM

errr,

IBM states that power dissipation for PPC 970 (aka G5) is "19W @ 1.2 GHz". The heat from a G5 at 1.2 GHz would be about the same as a MPC 7455/7445 G4 at 1 GHz. This processor was in the PowerBook G4 with 1 MB level 3 cache and is in the iBook G4 without the level 3 cache.
IBM PPC970 pdf

Mot G4

I fail to see how cooling a processor that is no hotter than a previously used processor would require cooling over and beyond what Apple has already accomplished with the PowerBook G4's.

Scooterboy · Nov 3, 2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by bobette:
PowerBook G5 is 'going to be a while'

Just buy the Albook, it's an awesome machine.

Cheers!

Or just buy an iBook G4. It's an awesome machine at a great price!

bobette · Nov 3, 2003, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Scooterboy:
errr,

IBM states that power dissipation for PPC 970 (aka G5) is "19W @ 1.2 GHz". The heat from a G5 at 1.2 GHz would be about the same as a MPC 7455/7445 G4 at 1 GHz. This processor was in the PowerBook G4 with 1 MB level 3 cache and is in the iBook G4 without the level 3 cache.
IBM PPC970 pdf

Mot G4

I fail to see how cooling a processor that is no hotter than a previously used processor would require cooling over and beyond what Apple has already accomplished with the PowerBook G4's.

IMHO, two reasons:

1) they want to milk profits to the max from the engineering behind the Albook.

2) they don't want to come out with just a 1.2Ghz G5. The MHz myth is still alive and kicking amongst PC users. And thy want to see higher processor speeds not G4, G5 or G69 for that matter.

Anyway, my two canadian cents.

spatterson · Nov 3, 2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Scooterboy:
Or just buy an iBook G4. It's an awesome machine at a great price!

Great price but you will loose performance. The PowerBook has twice as much Level 2 cache, The iBook only goes to 640MB of RAM and the PowerBook goes to 2GB of RAM. There is no DVI on the iBook. The iBook is nice but its lacking some power under the hood.

stevesnj · Nov 3, 2003, 08:57 PM

Even when Apple itself says 'Gonna be a while' some still cant absorb what Apple officially says....I am dissapointed in my fellow Apple users who cannot understand that fact that

"IT"S GONNA BE A WHILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!"

bobette · Nov 3, 2003, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by stevesnj:
Even when Apple itself says 'Gonna be a while' some still cant absorb what Apple officially says....I am dissapointed in my fellow Apple users who cannot understand that fact that

"IT"S GONNA BE A WHILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!"

I share the feeling Bro, hence the thread. Just trying to rub it in their faces a bit, ya know?

Lateralus · Nov 3, 2003, 09:58 PM

Frankly, I wouldn't count on there ever be an Apple notebook based on the G5. Here's why:

The G5 (PowerPC 970), frankly, was never designed with mobile computing in mind. It was designed as a brute-force high-end desktop processor. The amount of money that would need to go into refining the G5 for mobile systems would be more than the processor design is worth.

Now, as many of you know, the G6 (PowerPC 980) is due to hit the Mac market in late 2004 according to IBM's statements and processor roadmaps. As far as I know, the 980 is being designed as a chip that is much more suitable to fill the mobile and desktop markets, much as the G3 was. And if we are to see the same situation with the G6 when it is released as we saw with the G3 when it was released, we should expect Apple to drop PowerBook and Power Mac lines based completely around the G6 within about the same quarter of the year.

I believe we should all expect to see Apple and Motorola squeezing the G4 for all it is worth until the G6 hits and can take over for both the G4 and G5 in both the mobile and desktop market. Much as was the situation with the 603e based PowerBooks, where the processor was pushed faster until the G3 was ready to hit. Because much like the G5, the 604 processor was never a good mobile candidate and never made it into any Apple portables.

But that's just my two cents.

nate_02 · Nov 3, 2003, 10:16 PM

Good news for me because I just bought a 15" Al book. I don't want it to become outdated next week.

I do agree though that a G5 PB would be awesome. Sorry to all those of you waiting.

DVD Plaza · Nov 3, 2003, 10:40 PM

So... what about those dual-G5 PowerBooks

swiz · Nov 3, 2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by DVD Plaza:
So... what about those dual-G5 PowerBooks

oh no you di int!

x user · Nov 3, 2003, 11:21 PM

The power consumption and heat of the processor itself might not be more than a G4, but what of the other components? Backbone will probably produce more heat due to the higher bus and memory clock speeds.

Scooterboy · Nov 4, 2003, 12:41 AM

If P4M notebooks on fast FSB's are out now, then they must have solved their cooling problems.

The G5 (PowerPC 970), frankly, was never designed with mobile computing in mind. It was designed as a brute-force high-end desktop processor. The amount of money that would need to go into refining the G5 for mobile systems would be more than the processor design is worth

IBM already has a low power version of the PPC 970 at 1.2 GHz dissipating 19 Watts. This is expressly designed for mobile computing and embedded solutions.
All these "there will never be a PowerBook G5" statements sound very much like all those Pismo era "there'll never be a PowerBook G4" arguments.
IBM is moving the G5 to a .90 �m process which will be faster and even lower power.

AMD is readying its 64 bit processor which is also intended for both desktop and mobile computers. Apple needs the G5 in the PowerBook or Centrino and AMD PC's will continue to outperform the PowerBook G4 and leave them in dust, unless anyone here believes that Motorla is going to keep the G4 competitive and get it on a decently fast FSB.

eMac G4
iMac G4
iBook G4
PowerBook G4

PowerMac G5

The product matrix is looking a bit skewed, which will be a problem, marketing-wise.

I realize the PowerBooks are using the newer G4 with the larger cache, and have Pro, or PowerMac features (DVI, FW800, Radeon 9600) but they don't come close to PowerMac speed. And for those who don't need DVI or FW800 the iBook G4 is an exceptional value, and the graphic card is a damn good one.

tooki · Nov 4, 2003, 12:50 AM

That sentence sounds eerily identical to the one someone reported soon after the Power Mac G5 came out...

tooki

Scooterboy · Nov 4, 2003, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by bobette:
IMHO, two reasons:

1) they want to milk profits to the max from the engineering behind the Albook.

2) they don't want to come out with just a 1.2Ghz G5. The MHz myth is still alive and kicking amongst PC users. And thy want to see higher processor speeds not G4, G5 or G69 for that matter.

Anyway, my two canadian cents.

This sounds like the most reasonable explanation I've seen so far.
But when will the G5 be at .90�m? That should get it up to 1.8 or more GHz and at a reasonable power dissipation.
Really, even a PowerBook G5 at only 700 Mhz would best a 1.33 GHz PowerBook G4. Why should Apple succomb to the MHz Myth now?

shabbasuraj · Nov 4, 2003, 12:55 AM

ye I agree with the above, I want a 1 GHZ G5ivver in an PB...

make it happen someone...

Daniel Bayer · Nov 4, 2003, 01:02 AM

I will sing the same old song here with a new twist garnered today:

My "Old" Ti-1ghz opened up a 204 mb tiff file in photoshop 7 in 17 seconds.

My new alu book, 17 1.33 with a 7200 rpm drive w/ panther opened up the same file in 6.9 seconds with photoshop 7.

I just installed photoshop CS ( 8.0 ) and it opens the same file in 3.4 seconds!!!

My co-worker's dual 1.25 G4 tower opened it in 4.2.

WTF people??

Just get a fast alu book, put the faster drive in it (Keep your stock one for "Warranty" and backup reasons ) and pipe down until they figure the G5 out.

For Pete's sake, they need to get it worked out!!

My next PB will be a rev b G5.

E N D O F S T O R Y ! ! !

forcelite · Nov 4, 2003, 02:41 AM

I think the G4 will prolly get one more speed bump, in the middle to late next year.

I still believe that the G5 will be in a PB by late 04, early 05.

IBM has had a mobile version of the G5 in the works for awhile now.

Remember that Apple loves surprises and their brand new line of PB's just came out, so the above statement seems to go great from a marketing standpoint.

bobette · Nov 4, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Daniel Bayer:

My next PB will be a rev b G5.

Best choice in my mind too.

Eug · Nov 4, 2003, 01:35 PM

Frankly, I wouldn't count on there ever be an Apple notebook based on the G5. Here's why:

The G5 (PowerPC 970), frankly, was never designed with mobile computing in mind. It was designed as a brute-force high-end desktop processor. The amount of money that would need to go into refining the G5 for mobile systems would be more than the processor design is worth.

I guess The Steve was lying then.

(He has already stated that there will be a G5 PowerBook.)

By the way, the chip people usually talk about coming out in 2004 is not the G6. It will be a die-shrunk G5, and indeed, this may very well be the chip in the new PowerBooks.

SEkker · Nov 4, 2003, 02:55 PM

Doesn't matter if IBM could make 2 GHz G5s available today. Apple cannot afford to make all of the hardware announced in the 'year of the powerbook' immediately obsolete. This would be a marketing nightmare, even for the master marketer Steve Jobs.

And Apple cannot immediately sever its ties with moto.

So the G4s stay -- did you notice we have 2 different G4 chips now, a power user chip with larger on chip cache, and a cheaper chip for the consumer line iBooks? We'll be here awhile, especially for the iBooks. Maybe even dual CPU machines just to clear the moto inventory and Apple obligation.

If you need more speed, put a 7200 rpm drive in your machine as previously posted, or use a fast FW800 external drive (with the new firmware for panther!) to boot up for your A/V work. Or buy a G5 tower.

Until then, I'm going to enjoy the new software we're going to see now that Apple's business is stable, the mac market share is rising, and the Apple Alu PBs (and the latest iBooks) really put the competition to shame -- all with a G4 chip.

I, too, would love a G5 PB -- I'd also love a decent PDA/cell phone/iPod/camera, but that, too, is merely a machine of the future.

Scooterboy · Nov 4, 2003, 04:27 PM

And Apple cannot immediately sever its ties with moto.

So the G4s stay -- did you notice we have 2 different G4 chips now, a power user chip with larger on chip cache, and a cheaper chip for the consumer line iBooks? We'll be here awhile, especially for the iBooks. Maybe even dual CPU machines just to clear the moto inventory and Apple obligation.

And that's exactly why I'm buying a new iBook G4 and not the PowerBook G4. The PowerBooks are beautiful and have pro features but I simply can't justify the price jump. I highly doubt we'll see dual CPU laptops anytime soon as 2 processors will double the CPU heat output and double Apple's CPU cost per machine.

Some have suggested that the reason Apple chose the G4 over the 750GX G3 for the iBook was because they're obligated to Motorola to keep buying G4 chips, and this will allow Apple to move the PowerBooks to G5. Whatever. The evidence I see points to a PowerBook G5 before the end of next year. Well, it's nearly next year now.
I don't want to buy a PowerBook G4 now only to see it drastically lose value when PowerBook G5's arrive. I'll spend less on an iBook G4 and I'll get a higher percentage of my money back when I sell as the iBooks will still be G4. Apple still gets my money.

How many others are waiting for a PowerBook G5 before they upgrade from an iBook (or PC) to a PowerBook? If I spend that kind of cash on a notebook, I don't want want one with yesterday's CPU, no offence to all'ya'll PBG4 owners.

bobette · Nov 4, 2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Scooterboy:
The PowerBooks are beautiful and have pro features but I simply can't justify the price jump.

Well, (and I don't want to be provocative here, just speculating) you don't SEE the justification because you don't NEED the justification. No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about.

ibook:

no superdrive,
graphics card inferior,
no FW 800 (huge difference when talking pro DVD authoring here),
no gigabit ethernet,
inferior level 2 cache,
lower ram expansion possibility,
video mirroring only (pro photo-video-web whatever work requires external monitor as expanded desktop and calibrated visual reference)
No audio in,
No PC card slot.... etc, etc, etc...

Far from being even near of the Albook. G4 chip alone just doesn't cut it.

I don't say the ibook is not worth it, it's just not a professional machine.

Originally posted by Scooterboy:

I don't want to buy a PowerBook G4 now only to see it drastically lose value when PowerBook G5's arrive.

Everything looses value at the same time and in the same proportion! You know how much a Quadra 840 AV was worth then? Then a top notch machinery, man. Today: Zilch. Not more or less as its consumer counterpart.

Originally posted by Scooterboy:

How many others are waiting for a PowerBook G5 before they upgrade from an iBook (or PC) to a PowerBook? If I spend that kind of cash on a notebook, I don't want want one with yesterday's CPU, no offence to all'ya'll PBG4 owners.

Yeah but it's today's pro work we're doing on it, not tomorrow's hypothetical one you see? Call that return on investment. I'm already noticing a 30% increase in workspeed than with my Tibook. And if all's well, I'll buy a G5 when they come out (rev b, that's for sure).

petehammer · Nov 4, 2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by bobette:
Well, (and I don't want to be provocative here, just speculating) you don't SEE the justification because you don't NEED the justification. No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about.

ibook:

no superdrive,
graphics card inferior,
no FW 800 (huge difference when talking pro DVD authoring here),
no gigabit ethernet,
inferior level 2 cache,
lower ram expansion possibility,
video mirroring only (pro photo-video-web whatever work requires external monitor as expanded desktop and calibrated visual reference)
No audio in,
No PC card slot.... etc, etc, etc...

Far from being even near of the Albook. G4 chip alone just doesn't cut it.

Actually, he knows exactly what he's talking about. If you find benefit from these things, you'll pay more. If you don't, you'll save money and get an iBook (and a lot of money at that).

Your specific points: The FW 800 I don't buy, as I'm not sure the theoretical speeds on FW 400 have even been met. Show me a place with gigabit ethernet and I'll buy a PB and not an iBook. You are right on cache and ram. I'm pretty sure you can do the "spanning" hack on the iBook, so no, not video mirroring only. Who uses the PC card slot?

You sound like you wished you had waited and bought an iBook for much cheaper and are now justifying your PB purchase. Just be happy with it, no "it's bigger, faster, etc" argument is necessary.

bobette · Nov 4, 2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by petehammer:

Your specific points: The FW 800 I don't buy, as I'm not sure the theoretical speeds on FW 400 have even been met. Show me a place with gigabit ethernet and I'll buy a PB and not an iBook. You are right on cache and ram. I'm pretty sure you can do the "spanning" hack on the iBook, so no, not video mirroring only. Who uses the PC card slot?

FW 800: tried it? One hell of a difference.
Gigabit ethernet? my computer lab.
Spanning hack? We don't want to f*ck around with a hack, we want plug and play
PC card slot? Audio pros, photo pros, video pros. I do, that's for sure.

Don't worry, I don't regret one bit. I wouldn't even imagine myself doing on an iBook 1/10 of what I do on my Albook.

petehammer · Nov 4, 2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by bobette:
PC card slot? Audio pros, photo pros, video pros. I do, that's for sure.

For what? What that you can't do with firewire or usb (1 or 2)?

I'm truly curious. I have a PB 5300 and use the PC Card slot only because there is no USB or Firewire.

bobette · Nov 4, 2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by petehammer:
For what? What that you can't do with firewire or usb (1 or 2)?

I'm truly curious. I have a PB 5300 and use the PC Card slot only because there is no USB or Firewire.

Examples: photo transfer rates from a CF card to the mac is A LOT faster through the PC card (than, let's say a SanDisk FW 400 card reader). For me, FW is a second choice, when I forget the CF/PC card reader!

Audio and video units such as mixing boards, converters, I/O units etc ... Cuz you only have 1-2 USB ports anyway, with a midi interface in one, a mouse in the other, the PC card slot gets quite handy.

Eug · Nov 4, 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by bobette:
Examples: photo transfer rates from a CF card to the mac is A LOT faster through the PC card (than, let's say a SanDisk FW 400 card reader). For me, FW is a second choice, when I forget the CF/PC card reader!

FW (Lexar reader) is faster than PCMCIA for CF card data transfers. I've benched them.

I like PCMCIA for the convenience though.

bobette · Nov 4, 2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Eug:
FW (Lexar reader) is faster than PCMCIA for CF card data transfers. I've benched them.

I like PCMCIA for the convenience though.

Lexar hey? Cuz the Sandisk is crap... Thanks for the cue, I'll check it out.

forcelite · Nov 4, 2003, 06:27 PM

No one really knows when the PB G5 will come out.

We can speculate all we want, but you could be waiting a very long time, or you could be waiting a short time.

For those who need the ram and power now, the PB is a good choice.

For those who dont, an ibook is good.

It really is a user to user thing, not a generic rule.

We all love the same thing here, just remember that

ae86_16v · Nov 4, 2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by bkb:
He's in marketing, what the hell does he know

Bad news though

Actually Marketing goes hand in hand with Product Development.

Link · Nov 4, 2003, 07:42 PM

Product marketing also = milking what you have as much as you can before releasing the next big thing.
In one year the powermacs jumped by nearly 800mhz (1.42 over 1.25 and 2ghz over 1.42)

Not bad. The powerbooks on the other hand have jumped a lame 333mhz.

Methinks these threads are posted by jealous ti/albook owners who can't even forsee a simple speedbump. Remember how zealoty the tibook owners got before the albook came out? same dealie.

jasong · Nov 5, 2003, 12:01 AM

I have a prototype G5 PlatinumBook (PlaBook). It screams and has 12 hours of battery life.

-- Jason

NYCFarmboy · Nov 5, 2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by jasong:
I have a prototype G5 PlatinumBook (PlaBook). It screams and has 12 hours of battery life.

-- Jason

LOL

seriously I think the G5 Powerbook is going to be a huge surprise...sort of out of the blue like the G4 ibooks.

I think the G4 ibook signaled a G5 powerbook soon.

Of course they are going to keep expectations down... They have lots of G4 powerbooks to sell first.

I'm still expecting the G5 sometime in early '04.

forcelite · Nov 5, 2003, 12:22 AM

they can still squeze (SP?) the g4 for another 150mhz, to around 1.43, maybe 1.5

i think they will do that first, JMO

Eug · Nov 5, 2003, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by bobette:
Lexar hey? Cuz the Sandisk is crap... Thanks for the cue, I'll check it out.

Why? You said you already have PCMCIA. It's fast enough, as long as it's not USB 1.1 or something.

Loopydude · Nov 5, 2003, 01:23 AM

Booo

Though I didn't expect a different time-frame.

I hope the 750VX/Mojave makes it to the iBook or PB all the same, before too long. I think it's supposed to have a 200MHz FSB, 1MB on-die L2 cache, and to leave the gate at 1.6 MHz.

I don't need 64-bit right now. I need cheap speed on a mobile Mac. Insane, I know, but a guy can dream, I guess.

Pierre B. · Nov 5, 2003, 04:42 AM

It looks like AMD has already the edge on 64-bit mobile computing.

Lateralus · Nov 5, 2003, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Pierre B.:
It looks like AMD has already the edge on 64-bit mobile computing.

Not really.

That is a desktop Athlon 64 with a slight alteration. It still consumes 85w.

Apple could have popped a desktop G5 in a PowerBook if they wanted to. But they are taking their time to make a proper next generation PowerBook...

...you know. The kind of proper where the keyboard gets brighter as the lights in the room grow dimmer. Not the kind where the lights in the room grow dimmer because of the massive amount of power needed by the PowerBook.

Pierre B. · Nov 5, 2003, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
Not really.

That is a desktop Athlon 64 with a slight alteration. It still consumes 85w.

You are right, but still, they call this thing a notebook!

Love Calm Quiet · Nov 5, 2003, 12:03 PM

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
then it's from marketing dept.

This Apple dude HAS to say "G4 has a lot of life in it." They've got great G4 PBs for sale - and don't want us dreaming over G5 PBs.

Apple's going to quash any rumors of G5 PBs for as long as they can - PBs are their HOT sales items this year.

Just enjoy the surprise when it gets here!

bobette · Nov 5, 2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
The kind of proper where the keyboard gets brighter as the lights in the room grow dimmer. Not the kind where the lights in the room grow dimmer because of the massive amount of power needed by the PowerBook.

dreilly1 · Nov 5, 2003, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Scooterboy:
IBM is moving the G5 to a .90 �m process which will be faster and even lower power.

Sorry to be so pedantic, but do you really mean a 90nm process?

.90 �m = 900 nm = pretty darn big, given current fab technology.