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Israel/Palestine - I'm missing something. (Page 2)
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Big Mac
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Jul 20, 2005, 08:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
I have a degree in international law, so I don't think my grasp of the law is tenuous.
Color me decidedly unimpressed.
You spoke previously of Israel giving away land that it had "legitimately conquered". That is utter rubbish because it is not possible to legitimately acquire land through conquest. This is not a case of Israel doing more than it is obliged to; it's quite the reverse.
Experts on international law with credentials far more impressive than those of some anonymous troll (hey you picked the name, not I) recognize the right of sovereign nations to have sufficient territory to guarantee secure borders, as well as the purview to absorb land captured in defensive wars. In addition, you claimed that Jordan did not possess ownership over the territories, which is true - Trans-Jordan violated the terms of the 1923 British partition by crossing over the Jordan river and taking East Jerusalem and Judea-Samaria. Thus, Trans-Jordan, which had been established as the Arab portion of the Palestine mandate and was granted 75% of the mandate by the British, ended up grabbing an addition 10% until June 1967. But you don't have a problem with that illegal land-grab, do you? Moreover, Article 24 of the original PLO Charter specifically disclaimed any right to the "West Bank" or the Gaza Strip. The Jordanians held on to it without being granted international title, and Arafat disavowed the claim to ownership that you seem to believe the Arabs have. It was rightfully to be Israeli territory, so the disputed Israeli territories were illegitimately handed over to the PLO in the 1990s. And for that generosity the Jews got more stone throwing, more shooting, more explosives and suicide terrorism.

I don't think anyone out there expects the Palestinians, with the resources they have and without a state, to be able to keep people from waging an armed struggle against Israel.
Do you know how much money the international community (including regular aid from Israel) has donated to PA? Try around $5.5 Billion since the Oslo Accords. Ethopia receives a similar amount of international aid with 20 times the number of people. Do you know how many hundreds of millions Arafat stole from those donations, his “own people’s” tax money and other illict dealings? How do billions, perhaps as high as $10 billion, sound to you? Do you know the ratio of PA “police” to civilians? Try 16 to 1. Furthermore, were you aware of the fact that Israeli made firearms were granted to the P.A. “police,” and soon enough those Israeli weapons were being used by the “police” against Israeli soldiers? And besides, don’t you care that under the Oslo and subsequent accords the PA pledged to enforce anti-terrorism mandates? Meanwhile, it funded not only Hamas but directly coordinated many of the suicide bombings and sent its own Fatah and Alqsa Martyrs Brigade murderers out to commit them. I thought you were a fan of the rule of international law?
What do you expect the reaction of the populace to be when you kill them and destroy their homes, destroy their economy, prevent them from working, brutalise and torture them, deny them basic human rights. It's patently obvious to everyone that when you treat people the way Israel has treated the Palestinians for 50 years, you create a group of people who see violence as the only solution. We've seen this in every country from France to Spain to South Africa.
Let me pose to you a simple question, Troll: Have you ever been to Israel to see the conditions first hand? Or do you just believe the media and the propaganda? The Arabs dwelling on disputed Israeli territory aren’t suffering in the manner they lead you to believe. When they don’t send rockets and suicide bombers most of them live just fine and go to jobs in Israel. But, when they send out rockets and suicide bombers, and they use homes for sniping and grenade attacks, there are to be deadly serious consequences. And btw, I suppose you agree with OBL that it was necessary to wage armed struggle that sunk the cole, bombed embassies and killed 2,800 Americans on one day. Simply because a terrorist group decides it will embark on a campaign of murder does not make their cause legitimate.
If it is really NECESSARY to kill 700 people including 150 children every year in order to "police" the Palestinians, then there's a serious problem. In no other society that I am aware of is the government required to behave the way that Israel is apparently required to behave in the Occupied Territories. Perhaps it's time Israel started realising that brutality is not going to solve the problem. And if it really is necessary to kill this many people every year in order to protect Israel, then I think the rest of us need to have a little think about putting the Jewish state somewhere else. Because I don't think the idea we had in creating a Jewish state was to sponsor another genocide. The whole idea was to avoid genocide. We can put the Jewish state somewhere else where it will create less tension and require less killing to sustain it.
For several reasons, you’re being willfully deceptive when you claim x amount are killed per year. First of all, I cannot find any reference to your figure for the year 2004; all I could find is that 3000:1000 ratio from 2000-2005. There were a great number of fatalities in 2000-2001 at the outbreak of this second uprising, when, ironically, the dovish labor government under Ehud Barak was in power.

Israel is attempting a controversial withdrawal in order to reduce the tension, which will require the uprooting of whole communities (such as Gush Katif, which is quite beautiful, btw) and the transportation of Jewish cemeteries. I’ll also say that you’re misusing and cheapening the term genocide, the willful annihilation of an entire group of people, by applying it to the Palestinians. Finally, you acknowledge the seeming intractability of this conflict, yet why do you automatically call for the Jewish people to abandon their biblical homeland? Why do you support the destruction of the state of Israel, which is the fulfillment of a divine promise, of history, morality and the daily prayers of Jewry for two millennia? Have you considered any of that at all? Why is the Jew expected to pack up and leave? I have to hope your pompous dismissal is bred of ignorance rather than malevolence toward my people.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Tell me about the dhimmi status in Palestine before the creation of Israel.
For now, I’m only going to refer to events in the 20th Century prior to 1948, because it would take too long to recount everything else. Take a look at this 19th Century report:
Inside the towns, Jews and other dhimmis were frequently attacked, wounded, and even killed by local Muslims and Turkish soldiers. Such attacks were frequently for trivial reasons: Wilson [in British Foreign Office correspondence] recalled having met a Jew who had been badly wounded by a Turkish soldier for not having instantly dismounted when ordered to give up his donkey to a soldier of the Sultan. Many Jews were killed for less. On occasion the authorities attempted to get some form of redress but this was by no means always the case: the Turkish authorities themselves were sometimes responsible for beating Jews to death for some unproven charge. After one such occasion [British Consul] Young remarked: ‘I must say I am sorry and surprised that the Governor could have acted so savage a part- for certainly what I have seen of him I should have thought him superior to such wanton inhumanity- but it was a Jew- without friends or protection- it serves to show well that it is not without reason that the poor Jew, even in the nineteenth century, lives from day to day in terror of his life. . . .

The fact that Jews were represented on the meclis [provincial legal council] did not contribute a great deal to the amelioration of the legal position of the Jews: the Jewish representatives were tolerated grudgingly and were humiliated and intimidated to the point that they were afraid to offer any opposition to the Muslim representatives.
-Professor Tudor Parfitt, “The Jews of Palestine, 1800-1882,” quoted from the ISIS “Turkish Tolerance of Jews”
Beyond that, what about the deportation of Tel Aviv Jews by the Young Turks 1917, which had striking parallels to the Armenian Genocide (that was also a product of dhimmi status)? How about the Arab riots of 1920-1921 that were promoted not only by local Arab leaders but also British officers? And what about Hebron 1929 (see next section)?
Why do you ignore the massacre of Palestinians in Hebron? Aren't the Palestinians as worthy of life as Jews in your opinion?
The only “Hebron Massacre” I’m aware of took place in 1929, which began with a large assault on Jews praying at the Kotel (Wailing Wall). During this incident the British refused to intervene; the Arabs took that as approbation of further violence. After six days of violence that spread from Jerusalem to Hebron and other areas, the British finally interceded. In Hebron 133 Jews were killed, 399 wounded, and the rest had fled the city.

And do you have any links for the other claims? I've read comments about that but I'd like to see some sources so I can investigate it a bit better.
In response to that question to vmarks, open-minded people may find this page, and this page and this page informative, but since they come from Jewish sources you likely will not.

1. How do you know that the Caananites aren't the Palestinians of today?
Ah, that’s a good one. Thank you so much, von Wrangel. I know this is a common argument among Arabists, which to me really displays the paucity of their case. Let us discuss the Canaanites, shall we?[/quote]

1. You’re an Arab, are you not? If you’re an Arab, according to both of our traditions you come from Ishmael, do you not? The Canaanites did not come from Ishmael, nor did Ishmael come from the Canaanites. They were separate groups of people. Now does anything in your tradition indicate that Ishmael or his sons intermarried with Canaanites? While I have heard Muslims make the claim that Palestinian are Canaanites, I have never heard of them making it in a religious context - only during debates on the legitimacy of the Arab claim to Israel.
Was it because the Jews slaughtered them all when they conquered their land?
2. Well, in that regard, you either believe the Hebrew Scriptures or you believe we forged it. If you wish to refer to it as truth, then you have to take the whole truth. Do you believe the Almighty L-rd wrote this of the nations dwelling on the land Caanan:
When you have come to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, you shall not learn to do like the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who passes his son or daughter through fire, a soothsayer, a diviner of [auspicious] times, one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, -Deut. 18:9-10
When the Lord, your God, cuts off the nations, whose land the Lord, your God, is giving you, and you inherit them, and dwell in their cities and in their houses, you shall separate three cities for yourself in the midst of your land, which the Lord, your God, is giving you to possess -Deut. 19:1-2

However, of these peoples' cities, which the Lord, your God, gives you as an inheritance, you shall not allow any soul to live. Rather, you shall utterly destroy them: The Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, as the Lord, your God, has commanded you. So that they should not teach you to act according to all their abominations that they have done for their gods, whereby you would sin against the Lord, your God. -Deut 20:16-18
The question is, if you believe the Jewish people were commanded to kill those indigenous people by G-d, then you’ve drawn yourself into a corner. For indeed, if you believe in the biblical account, the Canaanites were so absolutely detestable that the L-rd commanded Israel to wage unrelenting war on them. Do you then truly want to say the “Palestinians” are Canaanites? If you still wish to make that claim, I’ll grant you that the evil manifested by them does make your theory plausible. Of course, as one learns, Israel strayed from the commandment and allowed the natives to live amongst them. But in respect to Arab/Muslim pride, I was shocked the first time I heard Arabs arguing a putative right to the land because “Palestinians” were descendants of Canaanites. If that’s the way you wish to argue it, I’ll just sit back and smile. Although I have very strong reason to doubt it, if indeed there is any truth to that claim, it is more than consistent with the biblical view that we are to be punished for not settling the land. (If there is any common lineage between the Arabs that constitute the “Palestinians” and the Canaanites, then G-d punishes us now for the same transgression we were punished for in biblical times.)
And if the Palestinians aren't from Palestine then from where are they? And when did they come to Palestine?
Since I’m running late now, I can’t provide a full response. First of all, if you’re interested in the facts of Arab migration/immigration, take a look at the British reports on the region and get a copy of Joan Peter’s From Time Immemorial. Prior to writing her book, Peters was staunchly pro-Arab, until she went back to the records from the relevant periods and saw the truth for herself. Secondly, your own leaders declared the “Palestinians” are not a distinct people. They are indeed a conglomeration of various Arab nationalities. A great portion of them immigrated in the 19th and 20th centuries, partially for economic benefit being produced by the Jewish immigrants. According to a travel guide published in 1913, there were an estimated 60,000 residents of Jerusalem, of which 7,000 were Christians, 13,000 were Muslims and 40,000 were Jews. In the 19th century the land was quite sparsely populated. And now, I’ll leave you with the following quotations:
"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it." — Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937
"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not" — Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946
"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." — Ahmed Shukairy, United Nations Security Council, 1956
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
-Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, Dutch newspaper Trouw March 31, 1977
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Well, as the page explains, commandments pertaining to institutions that don't exist today (like the Temple or the kingdom of Israel as it existed at that time) aren't really possible to follow nowadays.
Fine job explaining the issue, Chuckit. Without the Holy Temple a great many commandments are still incumbent upon the Jewish people. With the Holy Temple (may it be speedily rebuilt) there still are not 613 commandments for any Jew. To boil it down, a large set apply to Temple worship, a subset apply only to men, another subset only to women, other subsets that apply to the priestly tribe, and so on and so forth.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jul 21, 2005 at 04:07 AM. Reason: cleaning up typos)

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Troll
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Jul 21, 2005, 03:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Experts on international law with credentials far more impressive than those of some anonymous troll (hey you picked the name, not I) recognize ... the purview to absorb land captured in defensive war.
Yeah, it's hard to impress someone that has no idea what they're talking about. I'm confused about the "fundamentals of international law". Yeah right. I wasn't trying to impress you though, I was simply stating the law.

Let us have some references from your "experts on international law". Even the layman would have noticed that when the United States invaded Iraq, it became an "occupying power" in Iraq - holding it on trust until it could be returned to the Iraqi people. You might also want to check whether Israel has signed the Geneva Conventions But I wait patiently for your references.
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Do you know how much money the international community (including regular aid from Israel) has donated to PA? Try around $5.5 Billion since the Oslo Accords.
How much of the infrastructure that we (as taxpayers) paid for did Israel destroy in Ethiopia?
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Let me pose to you a simple question, Troll: Have you ever been to Israel to see the conditions first hand?
Yes I have, and I have a bunch of friends that still live there. One of my ex girlfriends was until recently a settler.
Originally Posted by Big Mac
The Arabs dwelling on disputed Israeli territory aren’t suffering in the manner they lead you to believe.
I've heard this argument before. Blacks in South Africa aren't suffering as much as the anti-apartheid movement is saying they are! I think that if most people looked at literacy rates, life expectancy, infant mortality, water consumption etc. of Palestinians, they might disagree as to whether they're suffering. Especially when compared with Israeli rates. Frankly though, I don't care if they aren't suffering economically or otherwise. They have been denied basic human rights for 50 years. You know those things America is supposedly spreading in the Middle East? Well Palestinians have about as many of them as Iraqis had under Saddam. Time is up for Israel. Finished all the excuses. It has had 50 years to sort the problem out and if it hasn't managed to at least give Palestinians some kind of future, some economic viability, to stop brutalising, torturing and killing them, then it's time for us to put pressure on Israel.
Originally Posted by Big Mac
And btw, I suppose you agree with OBL that it was necessary to wage armed struggle that sunk the cole, bombed embassies and killed 2,800 Americans on one day. Simply because a terrorist group decides it will embark on a campaign of murder does not make their cause legitimate.
I agree with you there and I don't agree with Bin Laden's cause. I do agree with the Palestinian cause to gain their own real state and so do 90% of the countries on the planet. Even big bad George Bush agrees with the Palestinian cause. Since we all agree on what needs to happen to the Palestinians and we know that it hasn't happened in 50 years and we know who is blocking their progress, I personally am prepared to turn a blind eye to an armed struggle against Israel. I don't agree with civilian deaths mind you. And having been the target of an armed struggle that affected civilians, I know what it is like for Israelis living with this. But that's all the more reason to realise what the stakes are and for Israelis to get off their bums and start using their democratic rights to change things.
Originally Posted by Big Mac
For several reasons, you’re being willfully deceptive when you claim x amount are killed per year. First of all, I cannot find any reference to your figure for the year 2004; all I could find is that 3000:1000 ratio from 2000-2005. There were a great number of fatalities in 2000-2001 at the outbreak of this second uprising, when, ironically, the dovish labor government under Ehud Barak was in power.
I told you where I got those figures from. The least you could have done, before you started calling me a liar, was to check their website. http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/isr-summary-eng

I'm not interested in ancient history and religious jargon from either side. I don't care what your religious claims are to any territory and neither did the international community when it created Israel. Israel exists because of what the international community did in 1948; not because of the bible or because of who occupied the land in the 1st century. The religious rubbish is the root of this whole problem. It needs to be removed from the debate.
( Last edited by Troll; Jul 21, 2005 at 04:11 AM. )
     
vmarks
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Jul 21, 2005, 08:30 AM
 
For 50 years the Palestinians have prevented themselves from moving forward toward statehood.

They consistently have chosen to reject agreements or violate terms they agree to and make war instead.

Even George Bush who you point out agrees with the "Palestinian Cause" has made conditions on ending Palestinian attacks as a part of his vision to get to the establishment of a Palestinian state.

The Palestinians don't grasp that this is a requirement. Ahmed Qureia realized that 2005 was nearing and that the roadmap set forth that a Palestinian state by 2005 was possible, so he asked Bush to go ahead and establish the state, nevermind that Israel made the first steps on the roadmap, agreeing to not expand some settlements, and the Palestinians failed to reciprocate by dismantling Hamas, Hizballah, PFLP, Islamic Jihad and others. But nevermind that, Qureia wanted the state anyway.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...-mideast_x.htm

"The peace plan initially envisioned the establishment of a Palestinian state by 2005, but President Bush said he'd be pushing for Palestinian statehood in the next four years.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia has urged the United States to stick to the original timetable. This demand was raised in Monday's meeting."
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von Wrangell
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Jul 21, 2005, 09:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
nevermind that Israel made the first steps on the roadmap, agreeing to not expand some settlements, and the Palestinians failed to reciprocate by dismantling Hamas, Hizballah, PFLP, Islamic Jihad and others. But nevermind that, Qureia wanted the state anyway.
Thanks for providing this excellent example of how "fair" the offers Israel put on the table.

oh, and could you answer the question I asked you about the commandments and the Canaanites?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 21, 2005, 02:36 PM
 
just bumping the thread incase vmarks forgot my question.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
vmarks
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Jul 21, 2005, 02:52 PM
 
Heaven forfend I do things during the day besides answer your questions. I know you seek enlightenment, but I have other occupations as well.

Back later.
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von Wrangell
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Jul 21, 2005, 03:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
Heaven forfend I do things during the day besides answer your questions. I know you seek enlightenment, but I have other occupations as well.

Back later.
No need to be irritated. Was just wondering if you had forgotten about my questions as you have posted in this and other threads since I posed the question.

Now I know you saw the question. Thanks

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
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Jul 21, 2005, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
People? You mean Israeli settlors.
Of course, you view any Jew living in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem as a settler. By defining any Jew living in Israel as a settler, you open them up as legit targets for terrorism. Bravo!

The Israeli Army is doing anything but keep Palestinians alive. It's keeping settlers alive by killing Palestinians and facilitating the theft of their land and the destruction of their industries and livelihood.
I would be mad and furious if this had any grasp on reality. Since it does not then I will pass it off like the rubbish it is.

If Israel has given so much, how is it that Israel has more land today than it did at its formation? If Israel has given so much, how is it that Palestinians still so few rights?
The USA gives billions and billions of dollars to struggling nations every year. Perhaps trillions have been given away thus far. Yet the USA has historically grown in size in number of states and lands. Despite what has been given there are still dozens of countries which do not have even the most basics for their countries. Somehow your correlation between giving and rights holds little water and makes even less sense.
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Jul 21, 2005, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
You forgot to mention a few areas that are affected by the developments in Palestine. Such areas as Madrid, London, NY & Washington, Bali and the list goes on.
That is really far fetched. And it is not our business.

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Weyland-Yutani
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Jul 21, 2005, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by AKcrab
Is this a message to our government? Cause until they stop caring, I'm pretty much forced to care.
I should hope it is the message to all governments. The imbalance that is created with the interest of the West in that area is what has made the conflict in Israel possible for all these years.

When the resources dry out, people have to negociate and make the best of things.

cheers

W-Y

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von Wrangell
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Jul 21, 2005, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
That is really far fetched. And it is not our business.

cheers

W-Y
What's so far fetched about it? What is causing the most frustration and unrest among Muslims/Arabs at the moment?

Do you really think that has nothing to do with it?

But if you mean that it is none of your business in the way that you think the last two wars were wrong, that we should support the dictatorships we support at the moment and so on your point is a bit more logical.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Weyland-Yutani
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Jul 21, 2005, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
What's so far fetched about it? What is causing the most frustration and unrest among Muslims/Arabs at the moment?

Do you really think that has nothing to do with it?

But if you mean that it is none of your business in the way that you think the last two wars were wrong, that we should support the dictatorships we support at the moment and so on your point is a bit more logical.
I'm saying it is far fetched because I have read about the history and creation of what is now called AQ. It has nothing to do with I/P, but ideologies. They scorn the corruption of the West and the effect it is having on Islam. They want pure Islam (or what they consider pure Islam).

What last two wars are you talking about? There are many wars waged in the world.

cheers

W-Y

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von Wrangell
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Jul 21, 2005, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
I'm saying it is far fetched because I have read about the history and creation of what is now called AQ. It has nothing to do with I/P, but ideologies. They scorn the corruption of the West and the effect it is having on Islam. They want pure Islam (or what they consider pure Islam).

What last two wars are you talking about? There are many wars waged in the world.

cheers

W-Y
AQ needs recruits. The recruits aren't doing this mostly for AQ's ideology but largely because of the mess that is called the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If that would be solved a large part of the recruits would go back home.

I'm talking about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
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Jul 21, 2005, 06:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by BRussell
Finally, a fair fight!
Pfft, with my hands behind my back.
     
Weyland-Yutani
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Jul 21, 2005, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
AQ needs recruits. The recruits aren't doing this mostly for AQ's ideology but largely because of the mess that is called the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If that would be solved a large part of the recruits would go back home.

I'm talking about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The recruits aren't coming along because of the I/P conflict. Not even Palestinians are rushing in the orders of AQ.

The terrorists are picking up recruits by brainwashing young muslim people on that the West is corrupting "pure Islam". That the West is undermining the message of the Prophet. Israel/Palestine doesn't really enter into it. I'm sorry, but you are way off if you think that the I/P conflict is breeding terrorists against the West. They have their hands full with the actual CONFLICT going on in Israel.

I was against the war in Iraq, but not the one in Afghanistan. That one the Talibans had coming. How it was executed and the aftermath handled is another matter.

cheers

W-Y

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von Wrangell
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Jul 21, 2005, 06:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
The recruits aren't coming along because of the I/P conflict. Not even Palestinians are rushing in the orders of AQ.
The Palestinians have enough to do just defending the rest of their land. Muslims around the world on the other hand do not face the same problem and are at the same time fed up with the hypocrisy of the West when it comes to that.
The terrorists are picking up recruits by brainwashing young muslim people on that the West is corrupting "pure Islam". That the West is undermining the message of the Prophet. Israel/Palestine doesn't really enter into it. I'm sorry, but you are way off if you think that the I/P conflict is breeding terrorists against the West. They have their hands full with the actual CONFLICT going on in Israel.
You are partly correct here. They do it by brainwashing young Muslims, may God have mercy on them. But the I/P conflict is one of the best recruiting tools there is at the moment for AQ&associates. They use it every time they go public. If you don't understand that you have little knowledge of how deep that conflict cuts into the Muslim consciousness.
I was against the war in Iraq, but not the one in Afghanistan. That one the Talibans had coming. How it was executed and the aftermath handled is another matter.

cheers

W-Y
Agreed for the most part.

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Jul 21, 2005, 06:52 PM
 
If the I/P conflict is recruiting terrorists that strike against the West then its very existance is a direct threat to the West. I think we would have realized this already, were it the case. It is not however. There is a feeling of solidarity towards this group of people but that's about it. The arab nations around Palestine haven't been falling over each other in offering the Palestinians a new home in their countries should they want to.

It is wishful thinking on your part that the I/P conflict plays a major role in inspiring young muslims to blow themselves up in crowded places. It simply doesn't enter into it.

There is no "Western hypocracy" when it comes to Israel. The USA supports the state of Israel, no hypocracy there. You can agree with it or no, but that is another thing entirely. Generally the Western countries support the state of Israel.

There is no hypocracy. Disagreement, but bo hypocracy. Not from the West. This conflict has been going on for half a century and at all times has the West tried to encourage peace there. No Western country has been advocating continued unrest in that area. From Soviet Russia to the USA.

I think your POV is rather naive.

cheers

W-Y

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von Wrangell
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Reply With Quote
Jul 21, 2005, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
If the I/P conflict is recruiting terrorists that strike against the West then its very existance is a direct threat to the West. I think we would have realized this already, were it the case. It is not however. There is a feeling of solidarity towards this group of people but that's about it. The arab nations around Palestine haven't been falling over each other in offering the Palestinians a new home in their countries should they want to.
They haven't because that would be wrong. You don't deport millions of people because some other people want to live in the area. There is an easy solution for the problem but the extremists on both sides are in control. Israel needs to expand and Palestine needs to get all their land back in the eyes of the extremists. And because of the situation there people on both sides become extremists.
It is wishful thinking on your part that the I/P conflict plays a major role in inspiring young muslims to blow themselves up in crowded places. It simply doesn't enter into it.
It's not wishful thinking. It's the truth. You are seriously misguided if you believe otherwise. Do you really believe that people just decide to blow themselves up just because they've been brainwashed? No. They need a reason that "allows" them to be brainwashed. At the moment that is the I/P conflict.
There is no "Western hypocracy" when it comes to Israel. The USA supports the state of Israel, no hypocracy there. You can agree with it or no, but that is another thing entirely. Generally the Western countries support the state of Israel.

There is no hypocracy. Disagreement, but bo hypocracy. Not from the West. This conflict has been going on for half a century and at all times has the West tried to encourage peace there. No Western country has been advocating continued unrest in that area. From Soviet Russia to the USA.
It's hypocrisy to claim to fight for freedom and democracy while at the same time support a nation that denies the same to a couple of million. It's hypocrisy to claim to be for peace while sending arms to a country occupying the land of three nations. It's hypocrisy.

The West has been trying to encourage peace in a way that will benefit one nation while hurting three other. The West is supporting a nation which has a man in charge that has been found guilty of mass-murder(conveniently he was "indirectly responsible). The West supports a nation that has a man in charge that his own nation doesn't trust him for the role of the control of the military(so instead he became prime-minister). That's hypocrisy on a high level.
I think your POV is rather naive.

cheers

W-Y
I don't care what you think You seem to think that suicide bombers just pop out of nothing. That a completely normal person becomes brainwashed out of nothing.

It's not my POV who is naive.

Cheers

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
 
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