[macroy]

Participated in a BMW Club Day down in Spartansburg, SC this past weekend. Thought it was a pretty awsome experience. Got to drive M3/M5/330's around their track and learned some nifty techniques....

This was a one day "abbreviated" version of their M School. It was basically split into two sessions (morning and afternoon). The morning session included 4 rotations:

Skid pad: You basically go around the circular skid pad in a M5 with an instructor. He guides you around the pad and leads you through bringing out the back end (STEP ON IT!!), counter, and correct. Then you get to attempt to try and powerdrift around the skid pad... I was only able to keep it drifting for like maybe a 1/4 of the circle....

Figure 8's: On a smaller skidpad, you go around in a figure 8 with 330's getting a feel of understeer and oversteer... of course, the object is to try and make tight circles without skidding - but it was more fun drifting around the cones.

Cornering: basically take a M3 down a backstretch, do a few slaloms and corner. Learn the mechanics of breaking, cornering, and accleration.

AutoX: The most fun was taking all that you've learned, and then incorporating it into a small autocross track.

The afternoon was the same thing, except you got to "race" your classmates in these exercise (of course, no figure 8's). The skid pad was divided into a dry area and a wet area... with slalom cones on both... two cars would start across the skid pad from each other and the first to finish back to their starting point after 4 laps was the winner....

Overall, I still like the M3 way more than the M5 as its smaller and much more agile and fun. However, its nice to experience how a luxury 4-door sedan can haul ass and still corner and slalom that well. oh - and they are the old M5's not the e90's. Maybe next year...

Add in the great weather down in SC.... it was a great day to drive a few excellent models of cars in a way you could never do on a public road - nor would you do in your own car (I must of bounced of the rev limiter a few dozen times in 2nd gear).

Oh - and the best part of the day - the instructors took each student out and "showed" us how these cars are SUPPOSED to be driven. Amazing what they can do with these cars man....I don't think my instructor had the car pointed straight down the road at all...it was just drift right, drift left... 360.. back into the skid pad..

I think I may hit one of those Skip Barber racing schools now when I can budget for one. Anyone every do a Skip Barber or equivlant school? How was it?

[wdlove]

Sounds like an awesome day and a lot of fun. Volvo had something similar this past May at Foxborough Stadium. MY wife attended. They used the XC 90.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Sounds great man. Take any vid? I'm definitely going to do something like that at some point in my life.

[Troll]

Skid pad? I thought it was a skid pan.

I did the full course a full years back. Great fun ... although I did the Audi one a few weeks later and got bitten by 4 wheel drive.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Bitten or smitten?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

Bitten or smitten?

Got bitten by the 4 wheel drive bug and wound up smitten.

[anim8ing]

Originally Posted by Troll

Got bitten by the 4 wheel drive bug and wound up smitten.

Not Rob though, he hates those things.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by Troll

Got bitten by the 4 wheel drive bug and wound up smitten.

Heh. Werd.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by anim8ing

Not Rob though, he hates those things.

I drive a car with AWD.

[anim8ing]

AWD & 4WD are not the same.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by anim8ing

AWD & 4WD are not the same.

OMG REALLY?!?! Audis cars are AWD, not 4wd.

[anim8ing]

Explain to me how you got on the subject of Audi, when the thread is about BMW school please.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Oh yeah, I forgot, you can't read. See troll's first post. See my response. See his response. See my response. It's on this page a little ways up, hopefully you can find it!

[anim8ing]

ok, so i concede the audi point, but they still aren't 4 wheel drive.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by anim8ing

ok, so i concede the audi point, but they still aren't 4 wheel drive.

OMG No WAY! YOU MEAN YOU REALIZE THERES A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AWD AND 4WD OMG THATS SO RARE YOU MUST KNOW A LOT ABOUT CARS!

[anim8ing]

I know a lot more about making you look like an idiot. Then again, you do most of that yourself.


Is that window fixed yet?

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by anim8ing

I know a lot more about making you look like an idiot. Then again, you do most of that yourself.

Not really. I'm not the one driving a vehicle designed for offroading and justifying it by saying I need to 'carry my bikes'. You're a poser, and you look like an idiot.

Is that window fixed yet?

And once AGAIN you demonstrate your inability to read. I quote myself from the VERY FIRST post in the thread about someone breaking into my wife's car:

"anyway, ran to www.car-parts.com, found a side window for $35 in milwaukee, vacuumed out the car, drove over and bought the window, came back, took apart the door, vacuumed out more glass from inside the door, replaced window, reassembled everything, and sent her to work 2 hours late. Not too shabby. Could have been worse."

So what's the deal? Why do you never read anything? You have made 3 mistakes by not reading things so far:

1. You thought that I meant there were more cars than SUVs on the road. Then I made you go back and reread it, and you realized I said SPORTS CARS, not cars. Then you changed your story to make it seem like you were still right.

2. I mentioned all wheel drive cars in response to someone talking about Audis. You then for some reason thought that I was talking about 4wd vehicles, and attempted to look smart by knowing the difference between the two. I then made you reread the thread and you later realized why I was talking about all wheel drive cars.

3. You asked if the window was fixed yet, and it was CLEARLY stated that I replaced it in under 2 hours in the original thread, first post.

Why can't you read? Are you some kind of idiot? OH WAIT! You're the guy who NEEDS an off road vehicle to tote around a ****ing bicycle! DUH!

[Mrjinglesusa]

People who argue against SUVs in a Mac forum are retarded.

[macroy]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

Sounds great man. Take any vid? I'm definitely going to do something like that at some point in my life.

I personally didn't - but a few of the others did have their video cameras there. If I see any I'll be sure to post it.... especially the "taxi rides on steroids" at the end.

[anim8ing]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

Not really. I'm not the one driving a vehicle designed for offroading and justifying it by saying I need to 'carry my bikes'. You're a poser, and you look like an idiot.



And once AGAIN you demonstrate your inability to read. I quote myself from the VERY FIRST post in the thread about someone breaking into my wife's car:

"anyway, ran to www.car-parts.com, found a side window for $35 in milwaukee, vacuumed out the car, drove over and bought the window, came back, took apart the door, vacuumed out more glass from inside the door, replaced window, reassembled everything, and sent her to work 2 hours late. Not too shabby. Could have been worse."

So what's the deal? Why do you never read anything? You have made 3 mistakes by not reading things so far:

1. You thought that I meant there were more cars than SUVs on the road. Then I made you go back and reread it, and you realized I said SPORTS CARS, not cars. Then you changed your story to make it seem like you were still right.

2. I mentioned all wheel drive cars in response to someone talking about Audis. You then for some reason thought that I was talking about 4wd vehicles, and attempted to look smart by knowing the difference between the two. I then made you reread the thread and you later realized why I was talking about all wheel drive cars.

3. You asked if the window was fixed yet, and it was CLEARLY stated that I replaced it in under 2 hours in the original thread, first post.

Why can't you read? Are you some kind of idiot? OH WAIT! You're the guy who NEEDS an off road vehicle to tote around a ****ing bicycle! DUH!

I think there is some rust on your left fender. Go take care of that. Of course I knew you fixed the window, i just like pissing you off. Now give me back my brick.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by anim8ing

I think there is some rust on your left fender. Go take care of that.

Why? It's a 1980s honda that lives outside, downtown in a fairly big city. Do you think that fixing every scratch and ding would ever end?

[marden]

"Dem boys at BMW…"

In a golf tour in Ireland, Tiger Woods drives his BMW into a petrol station in a remote part of the Irish countryside.
The attendant at the pump greets him in a typical Irish manner completely unaware of who the golfing pro is.
"Good morning' to yerz, sir" says the attendant. Tiger nods a quick "hello" and bends forward to pick up the nozzle. As he does so, two tees fall out of his shirt pocket onto the ground.
"What are dey den, son?" asks the attendant.
"They're called tees" replies Tiger.
"Well, what on de good earth are dey for?" inquires he Irishman.
"They're for resting my balls on when I'm driving", says Tiger.
"Jeez", says the Irishman, "Dem boys at BMW tink of everything!"

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by marden

"Dem boys at BMW…"

In a golf tour in Ireland, Tiger Woods drives his BMW into a petrol station in a remote part of the Irish countryside.
The attendant at the pump greets him in a typical Irish manner completely unaware of who the golfing pro is.
"Good morning' to yerz, sir" says the attendant. Tiger nods a quick "hello" and bends forward to pick up the nozzle. As he does so, two tees fall out of his shirt pocket onto the ground.
"What are dey den, son?" asks the attendant.
"They're called tees" replies Tiger.
"Well, what on de good earth are dey for?" inquires he Irishman.
"They're for resting my balls on when I'm driving", says Tiger.
"Jeez", says the Irishman, "Dem boys at BMW tink of everything!"

I heard that joke years back, only instead of BMW it was caddillac.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by anim8ing

ok, so i concede the audi point, but they still aren't 4 wheel drive.

I must be unaware of the difference between 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive. If a car has 4 wheels and a all 4 are driven, is it not both 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive?

Whatever the case is, if you get a chance to do the Audi course, do that one too. Power sliding a 4 wheel drive through a corner is even more fun than getting the back end out in a Beemer.

By the way, macroy, did they have that exercise where you have to do an emergency double lane change? At the course I did, you'd be driving on the skid pan and suddenly a wall (of water from fountains) would appear in front of you and you'd have to lane change around the car and back again while braking. The first time we did it, everyone went straight through the "wall". Even after a few times of practice, most people were spinning off into the scenery. Really made me realise how ill-equipped we are to handle the cars that we're being given these days.

I've been looking at doing a course at the Nurburgring. They have a 2 week part time course to learn race driving techniques. A friend of mine did it last year after being invited to a celebrity 9 hour endurance race (which he subsequently finished second in). Looks like great fun. I've driven the course in a rented Golf GTi and despite being passed by practically everything on the track, I gave myself some BIG frights.

[jebjeb]

I don't see any technical difference between 4WD and AWD either. Unless of course the vehicle has all wheels drive but has more or less than four wheels (like a Reliant!).

I think the common thought is that "cars" like Audi Quattro's and most Subaru's are AWD where as "trucks" or SUVs are 4WD. No Technical difference. One may argue that a 4WD has a high/low range gearbox but that is no longer true as most SUV's these days are only high range. I generally use this sub-definition but would never pull someone up on using 4WD and AWD interchangeably.

Macroy, The older M5 is still a cracker of a car. I was very close to getting one before I went with my C32. The M Sport course are supposed to be quite good.

I am looking at going on a course a level or so up from that. The course is only offered by two instructors in the UK as it leads to membership in the HPC club. It is a two and a half day course. The first half day is on the road where you are assessed on your competence of completing the course. It is not a case of "you pay your money so you are guaranteed to pass" rather that if the don't think you are ready, they will refund most of your money and prompt you to come back later. If you are deemed good enough to continue, the next day is advanced road driving focussing on awareness, safety and making swift, safe progress on public roads. The second full day is at one of the proving grounds (tracks) where you can get a little wild.

The HPC club is an organisation where every member has passed this course. You can be rest assured that every member is therefore a good, safe driver. They have their own insurance service which not only covers yourself but also any other member is fully covered when driving your vehicle and you theirs. The club runs driving holidays and because of the insurance, everyone can drive each others cars so it gives people a good taste of different machinery.

Problems is the course costs about £900 but I think it will be worth it for the road side of things.

[phantomdragonz]

OK, I was once mistified by what the difference was between 4WD and AWD, and I am pretty sure there was a moment in ca$hs life when he was too, so bugger off and deal with that fact that not everyone knows...


Anyways, the difference is pretty drastic. It all comes down to how the power is split from the front two wheels and the rear two wheels...

In a 4WD truck (not many cars have true 4wd) there is a "transfer case" this basically allows for the 4wd to be turned off, and also put in low usually, but the point is that it's purpose is to split the power 50/50, and only 50/50 from the front and rear wheels

In a AWD vehicle there is no "transfer case" but there is a device that does a similar, but not nearly the same job... it's called a "viscous coupling" or "differential" it is the same sort of device that is in the drive axle of all cars and trucks. it's what allows you to make turns and not have the wheels skreeching because they are fighting eachother (in a turn one wheel travels a shorter distance then the other) so you have a differential that allows this to happen but still power the wheels (there is a great "how things work" webpage that explains this well) BACK to the point, an AWD car has a center differential that splits the power between the front and rear tires because around a corner all 4 wheels never travel the same exact distance...


SO, if you have ever been in a truck with the 4wd engaged and tried to make a tight u-turn you will see exactly what I am talking about... I am an avid offroader and I know differentials pretty well, if you have any questions let me know...

I hope that helps..

Zach

[jebjeb]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz

OK, I was once mistified by what the difference was between 4WD and AWD, and I am pretty sure there was a moment in ca$hs life when he was too, so bugger off and deal with that fact that not everyone knows...


Anyways, the difference is pretty drastic. It all comes down to how the power is split from the front two wheels and the rear two wheels...

In a 4WD truck (not many cars have true 4wd) there is a "transfer case" this basically allows for the 4wd to be turned off, and also put in low usually, but the point is that it's purpose is to split the power 50/50, and only 50/50 from the front and rear wheels

In a AWD vehicle there is no "transfer case" but there is a device that does a similar, but not nearly the same job... it's called a "viscous coupling" or "differential" it is the same sort of device that is in the drive axle of all cars and trucks. it's what allows you to make turns and not have the wheels skreeching because they are fighting eachother (in a turn one wheel travels a shorter distance then the other) so you have a differential that allows this to happen but still power the wheels (there is a great "how things work" webpage that explains this well) BACK to the point, an AWD car has a center differential that splits the power between the front and rear tires because around a corner all 4 wheels never travel the same exact distance...


SO, if you have ever been in a truck with the 4wd engaged and tried to make a tight u-turn you will see exactly what I am talking about... I am an avid offroader and I know differentials pretty well, if you have any questions let me know...

I hope that helps..

Zach

Good definition for the strictly true 4WD but these days the term has been diluted. Most people would call a Range Rover or a VW Touraug as 4WD. They both have low range boxes ( and I know the VW has a selectable central locking diff) but both send varying amounts of torque to the front and rear wheels, not just 50/50 (unless the central locking diff is engaged). Even if the central locking diff is on, I don’t think they have front and back locking diffs so they are not fully effective.

I could understand how someone may actually call these vehicles AWD as well then.

To add another thing to the mix, many Subaru's have central Locking diffs.

Lets say we are looking at a "true" 4WD, basically as you have described. Not all (in fact most) 4WD's do not have full locking diffs. My experience is with older Toyotas so correct me if I'm wrong. A "standard" 4WD would have front hubs that are able to be engaged or disengaged from the drive train. This can either be done manually (turning a dial on the hub itself) or automatic (Hydraulic I guess). Now the front and the rear axles will be linked. When I say linked, I don’t mean exactly equal. Unless the vehicle has a locking central differential, if an axle has no traction, more power will go to it which is not a good thing. Say the front axle is on a slippery start of a hill but the back wheels are on solid dirt with good grip. 50% of the power (torque I guess but lets not go there) would not necessarily be going to the back wheels with good traction. A lot of it would be going to the front wheels and just making them spin more. If the vehicle had a locking central diff then you would have a 50-50 split and the vehicle could put some decent power down to the rear wheels where the grip is.

To take this to the next level, the most effective 4WD will also have locking front and rear diffs. Without them (just like a normal car), say the left-front wheel was in the air, lots of power would go to that wheel and not to the right-front wheel which has traction. If there was a locking front diff, power would equally go to the wheel that was on the ground as well as the wheel in the air.

Of course there are limited-slip diffs which are part way in the middle.

I guess this means, if I am correct, that there are very few proper 4WD's around these days. I am a bit messed up with my own definitions now. I will still probably relate AWD to cars and 4WD to trucks and better SUV's but when I really think about it, I would revise my proper definition to mean anything without front, centre and rear locking diffs is not a full-on proper 4WD and is therefore AWD.

I guess it is probably easier to think as AWD and 4WD being basically the same and then look for the locking diffs to see if it is the real deal.

I have succeeded in confusing myself. Corrections welcome.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz

In a 4WD truck (not many cars have true 4wd) there is a "transfer case" this basically allows for the 4wd to be turned off, and also put in low usually, but the point is that it's purpose is to split the power 50/50, and only 50/50 from the front and rear wheels

In a AWD vehicle there is no "transfer case" but there is a device that does a similar, but not nearly the same job... it's called a "viscous coupling" or "differential" it is the same sort of device that is in the drive axle of all cars and trucks.

Okay, I had a look on the web at this question and it seems to me that ultimately this is just a marketing thing in the US. I've found vehicles with transfer cases referred to as AWD's and vehicles with viscous coupling referred to as 4WD. It looks to me manufacturers use the term "all wheel drive" when they don't want to associate the vehicle with offroading and 4WD when they do. It seems like you can call almost anything all wheel drive. Part time 4 wheel drive, permanent viscous coupling and even vehicles with transfer cases are called all wheel drives. For example, "quattro" refers to systems that, according to your definition, would be 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive. The Audi Q7 for example has a transfer case and the A4 has a viscous coupling and yet both are called quattro all wheel drive system. Complicated!

Outside the US, it seems that the term "all wheel drive" is very rarely used. Mostly, it's used when a vehicle has more than 4 wheels and they are all driven. In Australia, the UK and South Africa, an armoured car with 6 driven wheels is referred to as an all wheel drive vehicle. Cars and offroaders very seldom are called all wheel drives. An Audi Quattro or a Subaru is referred to as a 4 wheel drive "car" in those countries. Offroaders are called 4 by 4's or 4x4's - basically anything with high suspension and clear offroading ability. Even the term 4x2 is exclusively used for offroaders (like the Rav 4 (which is a complete misnomer iro of the 2 wheels drive version)). Then there's 6x6, 8x8 and 6x8 which are pretty obvious. SUV is a term they're only just starting to use but it seems to refer more to recreational vehicles with big wheels and suspension that fall short of real 4x4's. A Cherokee may have a transfer case, but in South Africa, it'd be classed as an SUV not a 4x4. A Land Rover Discovery for example would be called a 4x4. So, also complicated outside the US!!

[jebjeb]

Originally Posted by Troll

Okay, I had a look on the web at this question and it seems to me that ultimately this is just a marketing thing in the US. <snip>

Sounds about right! I guess the thing to do these days is take both terms to mean basically the same thing and then look for additional info if required.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by Troll

By the way, macroy, did they have that exercise where you have to do an emergency double lane change? At the course I did, you'd be driving on the skid pan

PAD. Not pan. That just doesn't make any sense.

[macroy]

Originally Posted by Troll

By the way, macroy, did they have that exercise where you have to do an emergency double lane change? At the course I did, you'd be driving on the skid pan and suddenly a wall (of water from fountains) would appear in front of you and you'd have to lane change around the car and back again while braking. The first time we did it, everyone went straight through the "wall". Even after a few times of practice, most people were spinning off into the scenery. Really made me realise how ill-equipped we are to handle the cars that we're being given these days.

I did this last year as well.. and back then, we did have an exercise similar to that.... but it was done in the dry. You basically went down the straightaway at a set speed, then had to manuver around a box delineated by cones. You basically started out at 35mph, then 45, then 55. Wasn't TOO exciting. But was still neat to see how even a 330 was able to handle that quick "swerve" without losing its grip.

Originally Posted by jebjeb

Macroy, The older M5 is still a cracker of a car. I was very close to getting one before I went with my C32. The M Sport course are supposed to be quite good.

Oh - by no means am I knocking it... it was a beast. I was just hoping to get into the new 7spd SMG and hear that sucker scream

But the smaller 3 is definitely more fun.

[phantomdragonz]

Originally Posted by jebjeb

To take this to the next level, the most effective 4WD will also have locking front and rear diffs. Without them (just like a normal car), say the left-front wheel was in the air, lots of power would go to that wheel and not to the right-front wheel which has traction. If there was a locking front diff, power would equally go to the wheel that was on the ground as well as the wheel in the air.

true 4wd is simply haveing a locked center diff, or a transfercase that splits the power evenly from the front axle and the rear.

When you get into diff lockers you are in a whole new ballgame, and thats generally not in many production vehicles, toyota has a great rear push button actuvated rear locker... but there are MANY aftermarket solutions... I have a "detroit" full case locker in the rear of my jeep and I love it, helps a TON when rockcrawling, if I had a front locker I would be damn near unstoppable (unless I ran into some big rocks, then it becomes a tire size war) the problem with front lockers is that if they are engaged they make hard surface turning a real PITA...


TRUE 4wd is when the power is split 50/50 to the front and rear axles, if you throw a limited slip center diff or something other then a 50/50 split you get AWD, they are different and act very different in bad weather.


and just a note, I highly suggest you go to howstuffworks.com and find their differential page, I was mistified by them for quite some time and that page helped, but i never really got it until I was looking directly at one and played with it, they are cool. one thing that will explain a lot is to put both tires in the air and then spin one tire, the other tire will spin the opposite direction, also if you hold one tire still and spin the driveshaft the one free tire will spin twice as fast as if both tires were free. if you dont trust me do it yourself, it's pretty cool...

Zach

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz

true 4wd is simply haveing a locked center diff, or a transfercase that splits the power evenly from the front axle and the rear.

When you get into diff lockers you are in a whole new ballgame, and thats generally not in many production vehicles, toyota has a great rear push button actuvated rear locker... but there are MANY aftermarket solutions... I have a "detroit" full case locker in the rear of my jeep and I love it, helps a TON when rockcrawling, if I had a front locker I would be damn near unstoppable (unless I ran into some big rocks, then it becomes a tire size war) the problem with front lockers is that if they are engaged they make hard surface turning a real PITA...


TRUE 4wd is when the power is split 50/50 to the front and rear axles, if you throw a limited slip center diff or something other then a 50/50 split you get AWD, they are different and act very different in bad weather.


and just a note, I highly suggest you go to howstuffworks.com and find their differential page, I was mistified by them for quite some time and that page helped, but i never really got it until I was looking directly at one and played with it, they are cool. one thing that will explain a lot is to put both tires in the air and then spin one tire, the other tire will spin the opposite direction, also if you hold one tire still and spin the driveshaft the one free tire will spin twice as fast as if both tires were free. if you dont trust me do it yourself, it's pretty cool...

Zach

All manual transmissions that subaru uses (excluding the STi) have a 50/50 powersplit, but they're advertised as AWD not 4wd.

[Cadaver]

Damn that looks like a lot of fun!

How much did the course cost, if I may ask?

[macroy]

Originally Posted by Cadaver

Damn that looks like a lot of fun!

How much did the course cost, if I may ask?

This was a "special" arrangement with the National Capital chapter of the CCA... so it was $500 for the day. Which I would say is probably worth it to do once. But being that this was my 2nd time.. I think it lost some of its novelty.

The actual M school is WAY more.. I think in the few thousands - but its a two or three day thing. Google for the BMW Performance School in SC.. and you should be able to find some info on it. I'm just too lazy right now .

[SuvsareRetarded]

Sheesh. For $500 you could have just bought a helmet and driven your own M3 at some autocross event for a lot less.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Sheesh. For $500 you could have just bought a helmet and driven your own M3 at some autocross event for a lot less.

[phantomdragonz]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

All manual transmissions that subaru uses (excluding the STi) have a 50/50 powersplit, but they're advertised as AWD not 4wd.

I was under the impression that only the STi had the center locking diff... otherwise they are not true 4wd (the STi ain't either, but it's close)

the bottom line is they still have some play in how the power is split front and rear... true 4wd does not have ANY included play/slop in the drive train other then the slop in the gear/chain mesh in the t-case & u-joints.

HERE is that how stuff works article, it's a good read!
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/four-wheel-drive.htm


ok here is a good example just to drive my point home for most everyone (I hope)

if you were to put an odometer on each of the 4 wheels of a car and went around in a circle not one of them would read the same distance, they would be off, some more then others, but they would not read the same... now in a real 4wd situation if you added the font odometers and the rear ones both sums would be equal because the transfer case would ensure they travel the same distance, if you did the same in an AWD car they would not be equal...


here is a webpage that might explain it better for you all...
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/awd.html

wow, I just spent 10 minutes trying to find more info about this, but no one could clearly say what I am saying here... that AWD systems have built in slop in the way they give power to the front and rear axles to account for the different distances all 4 tires travel in a turn and that true 4wd systems dont have that slop, and the power is always without a doubt evenly split from the front and rear axles...

I have re-built transfer-cases in jeeps and played with AWD systems in cars, and I can tell you that they are not the same beast, they do similar jobs, but they act totally differently from another...

if you have any questions I will be happy to answer them, I am kinda frustrated that I cant find an easy to understand explanation of the differences...

just PM me.

Zach

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz

I was under the impression that only the STi had the center locking diff... otherwise they are not true 4wd (the STi ain't either, but it's close)

Dunno. The new Sti has a driver controlled center diff and you can vary the split from 10/90 (90%) to 50/50. On regular 5spd WRXs and foresters, I'm almost positive it's split 50/50 all the time. On an automatic subaru transmission (4heat), it's 90/10 most of the time (90% fwd) and up to 50/50 on heavy acceleration.

I might be a bit off on some of the numbers but that's the basics.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by phantomdragonz

if you were to put an odometer on each of the 4 wheels of a car and went around in a circle not one of them would read the same distance, they would be off, some more then others, but they would not read the same... now in a real 4wd situation if you added the font odometers and the rear ones both sums would be equal because the transfer case would ensure they travel the same distance, if you did the same in an AWD car they would not be equal...

Also, that would only be true if the front and rear diffs were also locked. If the front or rear diff was open, the inner wheel would turn less than the outer one.

[phantomdragonz]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

Also, that would only be true if the front and rear diffs were also locked. If the front or rear diff was open, the inner wheel would turn less than the outer one.

If you did not account for wheel hop, when taking a decent turn in a 4wd (engaged) vehicle, the tires will skip/hop/screech when you take a turn, this is what I was talking about the front and rear axles (the sum of the distance each tire traveled) traveling the same distance, it would not want to, but it wold be forced to.

but if you are talking about the totally open diff example I gave about going around in a circle I am correct, none of the wheels will travel the exact same distance, all of the radii are different once the car has completed the full circle.

I see what you are saying and I think you aren't accounting for wheel hop/scrub whatever you want to call it... bascically driveline bind unloading making the tires screech.


Zach

[macroy]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

Sheesh. For $500 you could have just bought a helmet and driven your own M3 at some autocross event for a lot less.

True - but no M5, no skidpad, instructors etc... And I wouldn't drive my M3 the way I drove these cars... not yet at least. I think the autocross' will be on my list in a year or two...

[jebjeb]

Originally Posted by macroy

True - but no M5, no skidpad, instructors etc... And I wouldn't drive my M3 the way I drove these cars... not yet at least. I think the autocross' will be on my list in a year or two...

Dead right there. As fun as it is to do track days yourself, it is certainly not the same as having instruction as well. Very valid point about driving differently if you were in your own car as well.

There are quite alot of expenses involved with tracking your own car like tyres, brake pads (and eventually discs), insurance (a big one here in the UK) and the general wear-and-tear on your own vehicle. This is not a problem but it does need to be considered when one decides to start tracking their own car (particularly if it is your daily driver).

[Troll]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

PAD. Not pan. That just doesn't make any sense.

Okay, I checked out the etymology. In America, it's referred to as a "skid pad" and less often as a "skid pan". That seems to have resulted (like so many other Americanisms) from a sustained misuse of the original "skid pan".

In the rest of the world, it's called a "skid pan". A Pan is a "a natural basin or depression in land or a similar artificial basin" (from Merriam Webster) so it makes perfect sense to call it a skid pan.

[SuvsareRetarded]

K, well just check any magazine or automotive source. I can't find any that say skid pan.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

K, well just check any magazine or automotive source. I can't find any that say skid pan.

If you look outside the USA, they all talk about skid pans. What's happened is that it's been incorrectly used in the US and the word has stuck so all of the magazines there refer to a skid pad and all the magazines everywhere else refer to a skid pan. This has happened with lots of words actually, although I can't for the life of me think of any right now. Anyway, evidence that skid pan is what the rest of us say:

South African Car Magazine.
Company Car Magazine
Southrun Magazine UK
Track Days in the UK
Practical Motor Home Magazine
American Snowmobiler Magazine
Car Guide Magazine Canada
Advanced Drivers Domain UK
Eastern Creek Raceway Australia
Skid Pan Days Australia