[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Yes, but at least there's a way to turn that OFF in OS9. I challenge any of you high and mighty OS10.4 users to tell me how that is done with the shutoff/restart warning. Bet you can't.

Bet you can't tell me how to turn off the "This document has unsaved changes" dialog in OS 9. Same deal, particularly now that Shut Down has a key command.

[tinkered]

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Here's a way for you to truely get me back... Now, this isn't a tirck question... I really want to know. Booted from a Norton Utilities 7 disk would I screw up something if I ran disk doctor on my drive which has OS10.3?
Thanks

Yes. Norton is also a relic of 10.2 and earlier. It is not designed to handle 10.3, it could to some real damage. Why would you like to use it? Could you explain your issue?

[imacfly]

Originally Posted by tinkered 

Yes. Norton is also a relic of 10.2 and earlier. It is not designed to handle 10.3, it could to some real damage. Why would you like to use it? Could you explain your issue?

Yes, thank you. I ran it to optimize my OS9 drive and while in the speed disk window it stated my OS10 drive was severely fragmented. So, I went to optimize it (even had it worked ... optimization wouldn't have messed anything up would it? I figured they are both HFS+ formatted) Anyway, I got a message that some 'blah, blah, blah' was messed up so I'd have to run Disk Doctor. I figured I'd better ask before trying that.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by tinkered 

Yes. Norton is also a relic of 10.2 and earlier. It is not designed to handle 10.3, it could to some real damage. Why would you like to use it? Could you explain your issue?

I don't think the filesystem changed in 10.3, did it? (Admittedly I haven't used Norton in a long time, but I'm a bit surprised that it would somehow corrupt your OS data or something.)

[chris v]

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Yes, thank you. I ran it to optimize my OS9 drive and while in the speed disk window it stated my OS10 drive was severely fragmented. So, I went to optimize it (even had it worked ... optimization wouldn't have messed anything up would it? I figured they are both HFS+ formatted) Anyway, I got a message that some 'blah, blah, blah' was messed up so I'd have to run Disk Doctor. I figured I'd better ask before trying that.

'Some blah blah blah' was most likely messed up by trying to optimize it with Norton. I don't speak from experience because I've never run any Norton tools on an OS X partition, but I do know from ample anecdotal evidence in these forums that to do so is a bad idea. Norton seems to almost universally screw up OS X system installs. Avoid it like the plague.

[imacfly]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Bet you can't tell me how to turn off the "This document has unsaved changes" dialog in OS 9. Same deal, particularly now that Shut Down has a key command.

Yes, I can tell you how to turn that off... chose "Save" before quitting the app.

It's not, at all, the same deal. Why would someone not want that to pop up if something wasn't already saved before quitting?
The only way it would be the 'same deal' is if I first chose Save or typed 'appleS', immediately went to quit the app and THEN got the dialog because I just chose SAVE before quitting. That would be dumb. Just like asking me if I want to shut down is dumb JUST AFTER I'VE CHOSEN SHUT DOWN!

[imacfly]

Originally Posted by chris v 

'Some blah blah blah' was most likely messed up by trying to optimize it with Norton. Norton seems to almost universally screw up OS X system installs. Avoid it like the plague.

Thanks for the tip. Fortunately, I hadn't yet optimized. It was running through that 'checking disk' phase when the "run Nortion Disk Doctor" dialog came up. I think maybe it doesn't recognize the file structure so it thinks it's screwed up, maybe? Now that I think of it OSX is now HFS+journaled or some such, right?

[Brass]

Norton is likely to say a Mac OS X volume has problems simply because it doesn't understand the low level stuff that OS X is doing on a volume. If it says it can fix it, and you let it try, it WILL destroy data. I've seen it happen when a client asked me to fix his computer after he'd done exactly that. It was royally screwed.

I 'fixed' it by erasing the volume and re-installing the OS (WITHOUT Norton). There was no other option.

(I did try some basic deleted-file-recovery first, but nothing useful could be recovered).

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Yes, I can tell you how to turn that off... chose "Save" before quitting the app.

Fine, hit return after choosing Shut Down to turn it off. It's just as many keystrokes!

[rtbarry]

troll is starving.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I don't think the filesystem changed in 10.3, did it? (Admittedly I haven't used Norton in a long time, but I'm a bit surprised that it would somehow corrupt your OS data or something.)

Disk Doctor/NUM was basically "okay" up-to-and-including Panther 10.3.8.

When Tiger came out (with Spotlight's metadata), even Apple had to update its own
Disk Utility in 10.3.9 so as to be able to allow a Panther (10.3.9) boot disk to safely
repair a Tiger (Spotlight indexed) mounted volume.

Symantec saw the writing on the wall, and dropped out of the (Mac) 'disk utility' game.
So... the last version of NUM (8.0.3?) is "okay" with Panther (and less) volumes which
haven't been Spotlight indexed. Not 100% sure, but I might not even trust it with a
volume that an OSX 10.3.9 Disk Utility (v10.4.4) had initialized.

What with DiskWarrior and TechTool on the block, it's simply easiest and best to
forget about NUM entirely at this point (instead of trying to remember all those
conditionals stated above). About the only thing I really missed about NUM was
Speed Disk... but I'm a recent iDefrag convert, and it really rocks for those (not
so frequent) times I need it.

[We can bicker over fragmentation in another thread someday. ]

[tinkered]

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Yes, I can tell you how to turn that off... chose "Save" before quitting the app.

It's not, at all, the same deal. Why would someone not want that to pop up if something wasn't already saved before quitting?
The only way it would be the 'same deal' is if I first chose Save or typed 'appleS', immediately went to quit the app and THEN got the dialog because I just chose SAVE before quitting. That would be dumb. Just like asking me if I want to shut down is dumb JUST AFTER I'VE CHOSEN SHUT DOWN!

I disagree. When I quite an app, or simply close a window, I mean to do exactly that, if I wanted it saved I would have hit save. All the time I open Word to quickly draft a thought or make some notes. I then copy and paste what I wrote to the app I am working in, or transcribe the notes to a more meaning full record, or hand write it if it is something that would look inappropriate printed, like a card or overly written post-it (my personal favorite). When I quite, I want my scratch pad gone, no questions.

[tinkered]

Oh, and when it comes to disk tools for OSX, I stick by disk warrior or nothing. OS9 needed a lot of help from third party tools. OSX only really needs help when the fundamentals of the drive architecture is damaged, and half the time these issues cannot be fixed, only delayed, since the drive is dyeing.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Disk Doctor/NUM was basically "okay" up-to-and-including Panther 10.3.8.

Um... no, it really wasn't.

I say this as someone who had a partition that was working completely fine (and checked out OK in other disk utilities as well) get completely hosed by Norton. DiskWarrior was able to recover the files, but apparently Norton had trashed all the info about what parent folders they should have had, because I had a nice 5-digit number of .DS_Stores and Info.plists and Pkginfos and whatnot sitting in the Recovered Items folder. Needless to say, that OS X installation needed to be installed. Just out of curiosity, I tried running it on my other partitions but not letting it fix anything. It found the same repeating "errors" on all my other partitions that it had found on the first one. Needless to say, I never ran Norton on any of my drives again.

What version of OS X did all this happen on? 10.1.

Sure, 10.4 made the situation even worse, but NDD has been quite proficient at turning disk catalogs into spaghetti since the day OS X came out.

[rubaiyat]

Norton's was a disaster going way back to OS 8.

I prepared a Jazz drive with all my Portfolio ready to burn a CD from it.

I then made a huge mistake when I ran NDD over it. It "found" a few errors, then some more and then even more. By the time I realised it was screwing my files it had trashed all but 3 files on the whole drive. When I contacted Symantec, they said "Yeah, it was a known issue".

I couldn't get them to acknowledge that they should have warned their users, particularly as in the same period I was being flooded with emails from them trying to sell me the software!

I never touched their products again. Norton's Anti Virus later had simiar problems, guess they were in the market to ruin their customer's Macs.

btw Make sure you are using the latest Disk Warrior and Tech Tools Pro if you are working with Tiger.

[CharlesS]

Yeah... Norton pretty much ceased to be a good product at about the time that HFS+ came out.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Yeah... Norton pretty much ceased to be a good product at about the time that HFS+ came out.

Yeah, they hit a rough spot when System 8.1 introduced "Sequoia" (HFS+),
but after they got caught-up (NUM v5?) it was no problem... never for me
anyway. I used Disk Doctor/Speed Disk from System 7.5 (or whenever it was
that MacTools Pro got swallowed by Symantec)... up to Panther 10.3.8 and
never got "bit" once. One trick was to definitely KILL Norton FileSaver. If it
was allowed to load into the OS, it would create weird situations... which I
totally avoided by pulling it out directly after installation. As stand-alone
apps, the rest of the NUM suite never bothered me.

From hanging around MacFixIt as long as I have, I've seen my share of "Tech
Tool / DiskWarrior ate my HD" threads as well... so, stuff happens.

[olePigeon]

In related news, Dvorak thinks Apple should can the iPhone because it's going to be a complete failure... just like the Mouse, GUI, Objective-C, iMac, and iPod.

[Simon]

Yeah Dvorak is a smart bastard and knows that he just has to put out some irrational anti-Apple blurb and that will get a million Mac lovers to go to his sight and crank up his ad revenue.

[imacfly]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

What version of OS X did all this happen on?

10.3.9

Thanks for your input

[imacfly]

Originally Posted by imacfly View Post
Yes, I can tell you how to turn that off... chose "Save" before quitting the app.

It's not, at all, the same deal. Why would someone not want that to pop up if something wasn't already saved before quitting?
The only way it would be the 'same deal' is if I first chose Save or typed 'appleS', immediately went to quit the app and THEN got the dialog because I just chose SAVE before quitting. That would be dumb. Just like asking me if I want to shut down is dumb JUST AFTER I'VE CHOSEN SHUT DOWN!

Originally Posted by tinkered 

I disagree. When I quite an app, or simply close a window, I mean to do exactly that, if I wanted it saved I would have hit save. All the time I open Word to quickly draft a thought or make some notes. I then copy and paste what I wrote to the app I am working in, or transcribe the notes to a more meaning full record, or hand write it if it is something that would look inappropriate printed, like a card or overly written post-it (my personal favorite). When I quite, I want my scratch pad gone, no questions.

Why would you want to 'quite' the app in the first place? I'd think you'd want to quiet the app first before you quit it. (sorry, I couldn't resist... had you only mistyped once I would have left it alone)

Anyway, I think the argument of the dialog coming up asking if you'd like to SAVE a document is a thin one. There is not comparing that to the operating system asking you if you're sure you want to Shut Down just after you've selected that from the menu. In order for the two to compare you'd have to choose Save and have the app ask "Are you sure you want to save?"

[sdilley14]

This is such trivial crap. I'm really impressed at all the responses its getting though. Granted I'm contributing to the disaster by commenting as well...but I gotta say, this might be one of the dumbest threads I've ever seen.

[chris v]

Let me posit this: you have now spent thirty times as much of your precious time complaining about this extra step than you would have spent in a lifetime of hitting the return key after choosing "shut down..." from the menu.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by chris v 

Let me posit this: you have now spent thirty times as much of your precious time complaining about this extra step than you would have spent in a lifetime of hitting the return key after choosing "shut down..." from the menu.

The thing is... you don't even need to hit return. Just walk away from the computer. It will shut down 2 minutes later!

[imacfly]

Originally Posted by chris v 

Let me posit this: you have now spent thirty times as much of your precious time complaining about this extra step than you would have spent in a lifetime of hitting the return key after choosing "shut down..." from the menu.

No, no... 30 times... no, wait 50 times as much precious time straightening half you guys out about what I originally said.
some of you are so uptight about your pweshus operwating sysem and those of you who are have never even come near an original 128k Macintosh.

[imacfly]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

The thing is... you don't even need to hit return. Just walk away from the computer. It will shut down 2 minutes later!

Not in 10.2... but I know... I KNOW... "Upgrade to 10.4 you lowly 10.2 peon! Then and only THEN will you be worthy to speak your mind here!"


However... the point is still missed in all of this. What's the point, you ask? HOW DO YOU SHUT OFF THAT DIALOGUE?!

Many of you are sitll being to reactionary to this thread. Either you're looking at the title and coming in with your OS 10 testosterone flaring or you notice the title and see all the reaction then come in yelling WHY ARE YOU GIVING THIS NEANDERTHAL SO MUCH ATTENTION!!! (without giving any thought, let alone READING, the thread)

[monkeybrain]

Butler (Many Tricks � Butler) will let you create a command to shut down instantly, with no dialogue. It's free too. There are probably other programs too, I guess Fruitmenu would do it and then you could also have an OS 9 style Apple menu.

[Kevin Dunahee]

*sigh*

Alright, not trying to be mean here, but seriously, those are your reasons for hating OSX? That's like saying you your life because you have to brush your teeth. Those are such miniscule reasons to hate an operating system. I wish you could hear your reasoning from our perspective.

iPhoto and ImageCapture are far superior apps compared to EasyShare. Most people will testify that EasyShare is horrendous. Every Mac user that I have talked to thinks ImageCapture is extremely convenient. I am not going to argue with you on this however, I can see how this is a preference matter.

For some of these, for instance the power scenario, there are workarounds (the option key). I can understand not knowing about these work arounds, but to me, it would seem more rationale to explore your options and ask somewhere (perhaps this very message board) for an alternative. At least before I would run screaming OMG I HaTe MaC OsX!!!!!!!!!! I R TeH 1337ness. w00t w00t!

Honestly, your reasoning sounds like you are just trying to summon a few laughs from the community as a light joke. I don't mean that as an insult either, it just plain sounds humorous. Even if you just can't live with having to sacrifice half a second of your time to confirm shutdown, try the alternatives that others are pointed out in this thread.

What did you really want by posting this anyway? People to support your protest? Do you really want Apple to smack themselves in the head for adding the shut down window?The majority of users like having the confirmation window appear, they have to satisfy the majority, not the single guy that is too perfect to never do anything unintended.

Of course you are welcome to keep using OS9 if that makes you happy.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Yeah, they hit a rough spot when System 8.1 introduced "Sequoia" (HFS+),
but after they got caught-up (NUM v5?) it was no problem... never for me
anyway. I used Disk Doctor/Speed Disk from System 7.5 (or whenever it was
that MacTools Pro got swallowed by Symantec)... up to Panther 10.3.8 and
never got "bit" once. One trick was to definitely KILL Norton FileSaver. If it
was allowed to load into the OS, it would create weird situations... which I
totally avoided by pulling it out directly after installation. As stand-alone
apps, the rest of the NUM suite never bothered me.

You were lucky. NUM (including version 5 and up) were well-known for trashing hard drives since the early days of OS X. I remember my experience well - I was still attached to defragging the hard disk back then, and wanted to run Speed Disk, since it was the only real disk optimizer available at the time, but it wouldn't let me optimize the disk because it was detecting disk "errors", even though the drive checked out fine in DiskWarrior, Disk Utility, and TechTool Pro, and required me to run NDD first. I was wary of doing so, because of all the reports I'd read on the Internet about damage caused by NDD, but I thought, oh well, what harm could it do to let it run just once? Well, I found out. Fortunately, I had decided to use a rescue partition as a guinea pig, so my main partition was safe. But that rescue partition got completely hosed. And of course NDD then discovered the same cascading "errors" on my other partitions. No way in hell did I let it "fix" those. Later on I ran it on some other drives out of curiosity, to see if the cascading "errors" would show up. They did.

From hanging around MacFixIt as long as I have, I've seen my share of "Tech
Tool / DiskWarrior ate my HD" threads as well... so, stuff happens.

I've never heard reports of DiskWarrior causing damage in anywhere near the proportion that NDD did. TechTool is not the greatest tool around for fixing directory damage either (although it is, at least, safer than NDD ever was), so I don't really care about reports regarding it. NDD was a more dangerous tool from day one, because of the approach it used. DiskWarrior (and, I think, TTP also) analyzes the entire disk before it changes anything, and keeps track of all the changes it's going to make before it does anything. And, of course, it analyzes and lets you preview the new catalog before you replace anything. NDD would just cruise along, find something it thought was an error, and ask you to patch it right then and there before it would continue scanning. Then, it would find the same "error" again, ask you to patch that, then again and again and again with the same error until either you realized something was wrong or Norton would choke with an "An unexpected error occurred" and leave the drive in a royally screwed-up state.

I had a few isolated problems with NDD on OS 9, but mostly it was OK there, although much more dangerous than DiskWarrior due to the basic way it worked. On OS X, it became more a question of when, rather than if, it was going to trash your drive. And since the problems were always repeating, cascading error messages (indicating that it thought something normal that the OS was doing was an error, and finding that "error" for every file on the disk), I really think their algorithm for detecting errors was getting confused by some new feature of the HFS+ file system that OS X used that OS 9 didn't (and there were a few - for example, long file names). I did not know a single expert at the time who did not tell me never to run Norton on an OS X disk - it was common knowledge, even back then. Fact remains, though, that even if you plugged in an algorithm as buggy as NDD's into DiskWarrior, DW would have crapped out before it wrote anything to the disk. Or, at the very least, you would be able to preview the directory and notice your files weren't on it. NDD just sucked, plain and simple, and was well-deserving of its nickname "Norton Disk Doctor Kevorkian".

This is all, of course, terribly off-topic, although I don't particularly mind since the actual topic is so insipid.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by chris v 

'Some blah blah blah' was most likely messed up by trying to optimize it with Norton. I don't speak from experience because I've never run any Norton tools on an OS X partition, but I do know from ample anecdotal evidence in these forums that to do so is a bad idea. Norton seems to almost universally screw up OS X system installs. Avoid it like the plague.

I've personally had Norton completely **** up one external disk - back on 10.1 or 10.2. I tried everything.

DiskWarrior took under five minutes to recover the disk, and the drive has not had a single issue in the five or so years since. I did lose some data back then, though.

STAY AWAY FROM NORTON. They took their product OFF THE MARKET for good reason.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Not in 10.2... but I know... I KNOW... "Upgrade to 10.4 you lowly 10.2 peon! Then and only THEN will you be worthy to speak your mind here!"

You are complaining about something that was corrected 3.5 years ago.

If you are going to complain about features that have been added to the OS years ago, you should be prepared to be flamed.

Originally Posted by imacfly 

However... the point is still missed in all of this. What's the point, you ask? HOW DO YOU SHUT OFF THAT DIALOGUE?!

You don't. It's not possible with 10.4... but you are again making mountains out of molehills.

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Many of you are sitll being to reactionary to this thread. Either you're looking at the title and coming in with your OS 10 testosterone flaring or you notice the title and see all the reaction then come in yelling WHY ARE YOU GIVING THIS NEANDERTHAL SO MUCH ATTENTION!!! (without giving any thought, let alone READING, the thread)

Hello pot... have you seen kettle by chance?

[imacfly]

Originally Posted by Kevin Dunahee 

*sigh*

Alright, not trying to be mean here, but seriously, those are your reasons for hating OSX? That's like saying you your life because you have to brush your teeth.

That is precisely why I hate my life and yes, I do think you are trying to be mean.

iPhoto and ImageCapture are far superior apps compared to EasyShare.

It's about my third post in this thread where I finally woke from my trance and remembered the app... AtEase.

For some of these, for instance the power scenario, there are workarounds (the option key).

I'm looking for a way to shut the nonsense off.. not just a way to avoid it. After all, if I'm going to hold down the option key I might as well just reach for the return/enter key.

it would seem more rationale to explore your options and ask somewhere (perhaps this very message board) for an alternative.

Oh, I'm sorry. That's a good idear... no, wait... isn't that what I AM doing?

At least before I would run screaming I HaTe MaC OsX!!!!!!!!!! I R TeH 1337ness. w00t w00t!

I never say w00t.

Honestly, your reasoning sounds like you are just trying to summon a few laughs from the community as a light joke. I don't mean that as an insult either, it just plain sounds humorous.

Wait! What's that I hear? A glimmer of hope? Could this mean that somebody's... finally.... GETTING IT? (queue: angel chorus) (queue: sunbeams)

Even if you just can't live with having to sacrifice half a second of your time to confirm shutdown, try the alternatives that others are pointed out in this thread.

That is EXACTLY how I'm spending my other half second.

What did you really want by posting this anyway? People to support your protest? Do you really want Apple to smack themselves in the head for adding the shut down window?

Yes.

The majority of users like having the confirmation window appear

That's because the majority might be PC converts (which really brings a tear to my eye) who've already been asked the brain-dead Shut Down question for years.

Of course you are welcome to keep using OS9 if that makes you happy.

Do I really have your permission? Could I get a signature on that.

[Rodster]

While I personally like OSX and have been using it for the past 5 years I would like to see a UI update. OSX is long over due for a new face lift including the Dock and Finder. As others have said it's just there in the background.

I remember when switching from OS9 to OSX and all I could say was WOW. I plan on getting 10.5 with my next purcahse but it basically looks like the same OS i've been using the last 5 years.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Wait! What's that I hear? A glimmer of hope? Could this mean that somebody's... finally.... GETTING IT? (queue: angel chorus) (queue: sunbeams)

Protip: Jokes should be funny.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by imacfly 

Yes.
That's because the majority might be PC converts (which really brings a tear to my eye) who've already been asked the brain-dead Shut Down question for years.

Don't be such a retard. I am glad the dialog is there. Sometimes I accidentally hit shut down or restart (yeah believe it or not I might actually select something that I don't want to). It would be a pain in the butt to wait through a restart to do what I want. And I bet you hate the login window.

[TETENAL]

Sleep uses practically the same power as standby. Use that instead of shutdown. I suggested that on page 1 or so of this thread, but I guess the OP is not interested in solutions.

[OreoCookie]

Since the OP has had two specific questions (which have been answered in the meantime) and not discuss downsides of OS X in general, I close this thread. Otherwise it'll escalate even further into a flamefest. If the OP wants to have a thread on downsides of OS X (except for the two discussed ad nauseum here), then he may create a new thread.

I think there are more serious problems with OS X than the shut down window (which has been present in all reincarnations of MacOS I've used to date, starting from 8.0 to 10.4.9).

If you want to discuss things that should be fixed in 10.5, you may also use the `Official 10.5 Wishlist' sticky thread.