[xmishx]

I just picked up an 8500 for $10. No ram, no hard drive. I pulled 48 megs of ram and a 2 gig hard drive out of a 7200 to get it going. I'd like some ideas of what some of you have done with a computer such as this to get the most bang for your buck.

I am an ebayer so I hope to find most of my parts there. If the price is right, I hope to put in at least 256 megs of ram, maybe a 9 gig scsi, faster CD rom, maybe processor accellerator of some sorts. I don't know much about video ram or other upgrades. Ideas? I hope to accomplish this for less than $200. Is that do-able.

X

[bluedog]

What's the processor speed (there were 120s, 180s, 200s) of that model? I have one with a 200mHz and it runs <A HREF="http://"www.yellowdoglinux"" TARGET=_blank>Yellowdoglinux</A> REALLY well. The video isn't that fast, but for a server it is really great. Also, these machines had several optional video-in video-out options. Does it have both in and out with RCA and s-video jacks? If so, adding the vRAM will allow you to plug this into your TV and have a display on your TV. Without the added vRAM you'll only get one or the other (the monitor or the TV).

It actually performs fairly well in other tasks with enough RAM. I tested Mac-on-Linux after the install and it really runs quite well (this is a MacOS running in a console window of Yellowdoglinux). Everything works great, compatiblity in this is great aside from 3rd party hardware.

If you have enough RAM, setting this up as an MP3 jukebox would work pretty well. You can run OS9.1 on it and do quite well. The best upgrade for this is to get a G3 upgrade card in it. I don't really think the G4 cards are worth the price in these models because of their slow buspeeds and video. If you have the s-video out and RCAs too, I'd hook this up as an MP3 jukebox with the video to your TV for AWESOME visuals and sound! Plug the TV in and the stereo into the RCA (or use the audio out headphones jack).

For the price you wanna pay in upgrades, I suggest the drives, RAM and perhaps a videocard (if you want to play games on it the PCI RADEON). Otherwise, nix the videocard and get vRAM and a processor upgrade.

If you're really into putting this machine to the test, it CAN admirably run OSX with enough RAM and a processorcard upgrade. I've done it with a 400mHz upgrade and 320MB RAM. It wasn't too speedy but plenty useable. The trick is to only use the first 8GB of a drive for partitioning in the OSX part. The openfirmware (incomplete in this model) doesn't allow for any larger partition and must be in the first area of the drive). Then use Ryan Rempel's utility on versiontracker to install and run OSX.

Enjoy the machine! BTW, the adding of RAM and vRAM is a pain on this particular model. Try and do it all at once.

[ 04-11-2002: Message edited by: bluedog ]

[Captain Obvious]

Good project......

Forget 604 processor upgrade. Go straight to an older G3 card. With the Sonnet price drop on their current G3 cards you can pick up an older 300MHz G3 for about $70
You could expand the VRAM to 4, but the cost is high for what you get. Instead go for a PC VooDoo 3 card. With a little research you can learn how to flash it with a Mac ROM. Then you get 16 megs of video RAM.
A USB card will run you about $25
And there you go.... the RAM and hard drive are a given so I won't go into that. But for about $150 you have a decent machine that will do almost everything you need to do.

[Captain Obvious]

Watch which CD drive you buy. Even though it may work it may not be bootable from a system CD. Its best you stick with Apple drives if you don't know much about models and brands.

[bluedog]

Very good advice from CaptainObvious. The extra videocard will give you more bang for your buck. And you can 'still' use the built-in video for TV presentations as a second monitor then and not worry about 'sharing' the vRAM for both.

The CD-ROM issue, hit home with me too. I bought a 24x scsi CD drive a long time ago and had been using it with success for installs (and booting macos) but needed the 3rd party CD drivers for mounting non-apple system disks.

It seems the drive would load drivers from the AppleCDs and use them if that's all it had available at the time. BUT, once I tried to get OSX installed on this machine and even with Linux there were problems. It was inexplicable little errors and stalls during the installation. I couldn't figure it out until I switched to an Apple-branded drive and poof all problems went away! I still use the non-apple drive, but know if I need to install I have to swap out the other drive (simple because the IDs and such are all set the same for my systems and CD-ROMs are almost universally set as ID3 anyhow)

Let us know how you fair. The G3 upgrades will give you a great speed boost!

[xmishx]

Thanks for the great advice. The 8500 I got says it is a 120, but I guess it has the 180 processor card in it. Upgrading to G3 will be on my list as well as the ram and drives. At the moment, it is just being used as a router for my network at home. One computer is upstairs along with a laser printer, laptop and modem here in my office. Turning this thing into a machine powerful enough for routing, scanning, burning CD's and hosting MP3's would really be great.

I have all ready once taken out the mother board. The task looks more painful than it really is. I'll have to do it again soon whenever I pick up more ram for it, which hopefully will be soon. I've got a sled coming in from ebay for another drive, maybe a 9 gig Barracuda. I did have to pull the CD and replace it with the one in the 7200. I think it is only a 6x. It is an Apple 6i made by sony.

I guess the fun will begin whenever I get the ram and the hard drive. The MP3 jukebox idea is really intruiging me. I guess then speaker will have to be in order too...

Thanks again,

X

[himself]

When you look for ram, go to
other world computing, and compare anything else you find with those guys. I got my 128MB ram modules (for an 8500 as well) from there for about 30 bucks apiece (prices may fluctuate, but stay within that area) for a total of 384MB of ram. Just one might be good for you, unless you plan to run X eventually... and like capt. obvious said, a G3 upgrade is the way to go, even if you stick with OS 9.

OK, I just ordered a 50-pin IBM 4.5 GB drive from CompuVest because the 2.1 GB Seagate died in this 8500/150 I inherited.

Call me stupid, but so far I have NOT been able to figure out how disassemble this thing to get at the RAM slots. I'm told I have to remove the CPU and then a centre screw? Is that correct?

I think it's only got 32 MB. I wanted to take out that card (SIMM?) and add 160 MB in DIMMs (128 MB PC133 plus 32 MB PC100) but I was also told they use weird DIMMs: FPM or EDO 5V non-registered non-ECC 168-pin. Is that correct? If so, it looks like I'll have to actually buy some, but it'll expensive.

It was running OS 8.5 fine before the drive died, but I have no idea where the discs are. I think I'll install OS 9.2. I don't plan on getting a G3 upgrade card. An iBook 600 is OS X.1.3 is slow enough. Plus the only thing I'd use it for is a SCSI Kodak digicam (DCS420 I think), which has no OS X TWAIN drivers.

Hmmm.. It seems I must use the weird RAM. Should I get EDO or non-EDO? The former is slightly cheaper at some places.

[xmishx]

Originally posted by &lt;Eug&gt;:
<STRONG>OK, I just ordered a 50-pin IBM 4.5 GB drive from CompuVest because the 2.1 GB Seagate died in this 8500/150 I inherited.

Call me stupid, but so far I have NOT been able to figure out how disassemble this thing to get at the RAM slots. I'm told I have to remove the CPU and then a centre screw? Is that correct?

I think it's only got 32 MB. I wanted to take out that card (SIMM?) and add 160 MB in DIMMs (128 MB PC133 plus 32 MB PC100) but I was also told they use weird DIMMs: FPM or EDO 5V non-registered non-ECC 168-pin. Is that correct? If so, it looks like I'll have to actually buy some, but it'll expensive.

It was running OS 8.5 fine before the drive died, but I have no idea where the discs are. I think I'll install OS 9.2. I don't plan on getting a G3 upgrade card. An iBook 600 is OS X.1.3 is slow enough. Plus the only thing I'd use it for is a SCSI Kodak digicam (DCS420 I think), which has no OS X TWAIN drivers.</STRONG>

Eug,

Unplug all the sockets at the top of the mother board. Move that plastic hinged thing that is holding the processor card, the one with the heat sink on it, and remove it. Unscrew the phillps head screw then slide the mother board to pull it out. Look at the power button also. There is a wire there to the green power light that I had trouble with. I just left it and worked around it.

It really is not as tough as when you first look at what you have to do. Just do it... Installation of the ram was really simple. edo or fpm dimm will work with this machine. As the poster above stated, you can buy 128 megs for about $38 shipped from Other World Computing. I will be buying 2. While your in there, if you have a volt meter, check the status of your internal pram battery. When I opened mine up and checked it, it was dead. If you don't have a volt meter, just replace the battery. it would be a pain in the ass to open the innards up just replace the battery.

Good luck,

X

[himself]

Originally posted by xmishx:
<STRONG>
Eug,

Unplug all the sockets at the top of the mother board. Move that plastic hinged thing that is holding the processor card, the one with the heat sink on it, and remove it. Unscrew the phillps head screw then slide the mother board to pull it out. Look at the power button also...</STRONG>

You'll need to remove the power button assembly at the front before you can take out the mother board... you just need to push in those two little tabs that hold in place. Do that, plus everything xmishx said, and you can slide that motherboard out... oh, and don't forget to unplug the socket *inside* the case that connects th mobo to the AV inputs/outputs on back...

When you reassemble the machine, make sure the processor card is fully seated, or the machine won't boot. You could also risk frying your processor.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by &lt;Eug&gt;:
<STRONG>Hmmm.. It seems I must use the weird RAM. Should I get EDO or non-EDO? The former is slightly cheaper at some places.</STRONG>

Hold off on buying more RAM. Go take the one you have tested and find out what it is. You shouldnt mix FPM and EDO RAM.The RAM you WILL buy depends on you keeping the PowerPC chip or getting a G3 upgrade. So you may end up scrapping that current RAM in the end anyway. One RAM type will work better if you have the processor upgrade. Don't get your RAM from eBay.

[DrBoar]

If you go for a G3 do get a graphic card!
Upgrading my 7500 from 601/100 to 604E/200 increased the graphics speed a lot. But adding a G3 will not make it much faster in this regard, in fact a 7500/200 with a Voodoo 3 2000 card is faster in 2D than a 7300/400.
(http://xlr8.com/cgi-bin/cart-cc/cart.pl?db=stuff.dat&category=Hot+Deals) Here thay have a fast 2D card for 30 dollar. If you plan on doing 3D games the ATI 7000 is a good deal.

But be avare of the danger of adding to much in small steps!
Starting with the G3 upgrade 140 dollar
Then the graphical card 35-120 dollar
Some RAM 50 dollar
A USB mouse and USB card 50 dollar

[xmishx]

OK, I'll be getting at least 256 megs of ram -$60 another 2 gig hard drive - $20 for a total of 4 gig. I was thinking of getting a 9 gig Scsi, but that looks to be about $75 and it is stuck in the machine. If I get a firewire pci card and a 20 gig firewire external, would it work with my present 180 MHz processor? - $180. I could have the 20 gig for both my 8500 and my Lombard. Seems to be a better choice. What do you think?

Thanks for all the great advice.

X

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: xmishx ]

[DaedalusDX]

You should also not forget about a video card for this machine.

If you're going up to a G3 and plan on installing Mac OS X, definitely consider getting at least an older ATI Rage 128 based video card so you get full support from OS X....

Or you can go all out and get yourself the PCI based Radeon card, but that is probably excessive for what you want to spend.

[zac4mac]

I have a cyborg'd 8500 that I replaced at home with a G4. I took it to work so I don't have to use a PC.
Very modified over the 5 years I've had it.

G3-400 OC'd to 454MHz, system bus at 56.8 MHz - Apple guarantees up to 50 MHz
704 MB interleaved EDO 60ns RAM - EDO is faster than FPM, interleaving gives a small boost also
4MB VRAM to a 15" VGA, 8MB iXMicro Ult Rez 3D(OS9 only) to a 17"VGA - it had an ATi Orion(much better card), but that's in my duallie now with a Radeon.
Plextor 12/20 variable CDROM
floppy replaced with SCSI internal Zip100
2GB Quantum HD, 9GB IBM UltraStar, both SCSI internal
USB card(PCI) - for digital camera and 3-button Kensington optical mouse
FireWire card(PCI) - external HD's(cheaper and easier than SCSI external) and iPod
several added fans and cooling holes in case

Still a very capable machine

[Eug]

OK the 4.5 GB drive has arrived. I haven't attempted installing it yet. I figure OS 9.0 would be a good OS for it.

I think there is only 32 MB. Will OS 9 even boot with that? If so and it works, I'll buy 256 MB and scrap the 32 MB.

It should be OK to run a SCSI digicam linked to Photoshop 5. There isn't gonna be anything else running on it, except IE and stuff. (I've got an iBook and a P4 for my main stuff.)

What does the PRAM battery do anyway and is it necessary.

[Dennis Travis]

I also just bought a 8500/120 on Ebay. It works great and am in the process of upgrading it. All I have read here will help a lot! Thanks for the link to Other World Computing. Their RAM prices are great. Right now the 8500 has 48 Megs RAM and a 2 GB HDD and 2 Megs Vram.

[xmishx]

Just to keep you updated on my 8500, I ended up having to put way too much into my car the past 3 weeks. I did manage to get a 200MHz 604e processor card for nothing. 256 megs of ram is on it's way with shipping for $48. I have 2 2gig drives in the machine. If I get lucky, maybe I can find a bigger scsi drive to replace one of the 2 gig. I also have to pull a floppy from another computer to replace the broken one in the 8500. Once the ram gets here, I'll be cooking with Gas! Oh yeah, found a 15 inch multisync for $10. The same place I found the 8500. Yeah BABY!

X

My drive is the 4.5 GB IBM Ultrastar 2XP with 50-pin single ended SCSI interface.

When I try to initialize it with the OS 9 install CD using the drive utilities it says it "Cannot initialize a disk with non 512-byte sectors".

What the hell does that mean? How do I format the thing? I note that the specs state a 512-740 byte sector size.

[Eug]

Ironically, the Apple 8500 is specifically listed as compatible with that drive, here. Maybe I just need a third party initialization program.

[xmishx]

Sheesh, my ram still has not come... I did go to the local Fry's and got a dual usb pci adapter for nothing! $15 rebate, $15 for the card. Niesh! Found 2 vram chips also. Slowly but shirley.

X

I came into possession of an Ebay'ed 8500/150 recently to. It wasn't as stripped as yours, it was complete in fact. I bought it for something to play with, and now I find myself using it for email, small web browsing, etc...my WinXP box sits there a bit more each day un-used

I've so fat gotten an Sonnet ATA/100 PCI card, 384meg RAM (OWC 128meg EDO's), and I have an ATi Xclaim 3D Pro (8 meg VRAM) on the way. With this, it runs 9.1 on a 20gig, and OS X on an 8gig. X is a bit slow on 150Mhz, but actually useable (in a p100 sort of way). I'm looking into a G4/450 upgrade from xlr8.

Just thought I'd let you know you aren't the only one out there resurrecting an old boxen. I like mine

[xmishx]

MoonScryer1,

Sounds great. Whenever I get some work in here and have a little spare cash, I'd like to get a G3 card also. However, with what I have planned for the machine, I don't think I'll need it. It is working just as well as my Lombard burning from CD to CD. For that, I am happy. I will install scanner drivers whenever my ram gets here ( I did get an email from the vendor stating that it is on the way...), and then install OS9.1 with itunes. I'd like to maybe get a 9 gig scsi drive to hold the music. If I decide to get fancy, fire wire card with a external 20 -40 gig drive. Yeah BABY!

X

[xmishx]

It is getting to the point where all I really need to get is a G3 card. My ram finally showed up and I just bought a 9.1 gig scsi full height monster (see BIG Mamajama). There is a small chance I will pick up a 9600 for a very nice trade of the 8500, but if it falls through, I have an external box for the 9.1 gig. I'm waiting to hear about the 9600 Saturday morning. Either way, if I get the 9600 or keep the 8500, I'm feeling really good about this system. It will have 256 megs of ram, 11 gigs of space, at least a 200 MHz 604e processor and dual usb card for $95!

X

[xmishx]

It is getting to the point where all I really need to get is a G3 card. My ram finally showed up and I just bought a 9.1 gig scsi full height monster (see BIG Mamajama). There is a small chance I will pick up a 9600 for a very nice trade of the 8500, but if it falls through, I have an external box for the 9.1 gig. I'm waiting to hear about the 9600 Saturday morning. Either way, if I get the 9600 or keep the 8500, I'm feeling really good about this system. It will have 256 megs of ram, 11 gigs of space, at least a 200 MHz 604e processor and dual usb card for $95!

X

[v8q]

I have an 8500 with:
Sonnet G4/400
256 meg ram
USB/Firewire combo card
Sonnet IDE card
Sun fixed frequency 21 inch monitor ($100)


It runs OSX, OS9 and yellowdog linux just fine.
I would not mess with a G3 if you want OSX - the G4 is pretty cheap and my 8500 is easily the equal of my i-mac DV/400. In fact it runs OSX better, and the video in/out hardware is pretty nice - but useless past OS9.

[Eric E.]

It's not an 8500, but my Power Computing Power Center Pro has a lot of similarities to your unit.

Original Spec: 210 MHZ 604e processor, 2 Gig SCSI HD, 32 Megs of RAM, 4 Meg Video Memory, 16x CD Drive.

Right Now: 500 MHZ G3 Processor (from Newer Tech - now gone), two 80 Gig ATA HD connected to an ATA PCI card, a 4.5 Gig HD SCSI HD connected to the mother board, 512 Megs of RAM (FPM type, not EDE), ATI Radeon Video Card, Yamaha 16x10x40 CD-RW Drive, Panasonic DVD-RAM Drive, Orange Micro USB/ Firewire PCI card.

My computer is 5 years old, and still has a lot of life to it. Your $10 8500 has a lot of potential.

Eric

[xmishx]

Eric,

Funny you mention Power Computing! My 256 megs of ram came in from Velocity, finally! I tried installing, but the 2) 128 meg chips would not work in the 8500. A friend also found something up with the video, which was not good. I managed to trade the 8500 along with a few little other odds and ends to get a Power Computing Power Center 240. I put in my 2) 128's, 2) 2 gigs and it is working like a charm. Because it has a 60MHz bus, I think I have to get a G3 or G4 card for it! The 9600 that was a possibility also fell thru, but in the end, I think it all worked out nice!

X

[Eric E.]

X,

That 9600 would have been sweet simply because of the 6 PCI slots.

I'm on the verge of quitting on using SCSI hard drives. Them suckers are just a tad too expensive for casual use. This is the reason why I ditched the stock Adaptec SCSI card and replaced it with an Acard ATA card. With 2 Maxtor 80 gig ATA hard drives hooked up to it, the performance seems a little faster. I now have no free PCI slots - the other two occupied by a Firewire/USB card and an ATI Radeon, which probably means that my Power Center Pro will not be seeing too much upgrades in the near future.

Eric

[xmishx]

I am having huge scsi problems. I have a 9 gig Seagate that everytime I initialize it, the drive disappears upon re-start. I didn't know about internal scsi termination, so I thought maybe that was the problem when I figured that out. However, it still doesn't work correctly.

My budget is limited, but getting that thing going would really be nice. I want to transfer files from my laptop to it so I can upgrade to OSX (the laptop). Then after that, mp3 files will go on the 9 gig for a great music box.

ATA card sound really good to me at this point. More initial money, but huge returns.

Thanks for the info.

X

I had an 8500 a while ago and I decided I wanted another one and it would be cheaper than a new system, so I went on eBay.. I now have an 8500/150, two 128mb DIMMs, 200mhz 604e and dual-200mhz 604e processor cards, a 512k cache card, four 1mb VRAM SIMMs, a Voodoo3 card, three 4gb SCSI drives.. I also got an SE/30 and some memory, a drive, and a network card for it. Once you add shipping costs in this stuff ran a little more than I wanted to spend but it's cool to mess around with old hardware.

-Jason

[Eug]

Does any one know the solution to my drive problem?

See my post above. It complains about my sector size during initialization.

[BillyB]

Originally posted by Eug:
<STRONG>Does any one know the solution to my drive problem?

See my post above. It complains about my sector size during initialization.</STRONG>

What seems strange to me is that the pdf file that you provided above lists the Mac on page 1 but, on page 2, there is no mention of it being compatible with any MacOS system software. Hmmm...

[BillyB]

Originally posted by Eug:
<STRONG>Ironically, the Apple 8500 is specifically listed as compatible with that drive, here. Maybe I just need a third party initialization program.</STRONG>

I don't know if FWB HardDisk ToolKit could even help you out with this one. According to their list of supported devices from June of 2000, it lists these IBM models, but none of which shows your model#:

IBM: 0662S12, 0662SW1, 0663H12, 0664M1H (1920MB), 0664N1H, DALS-3540, DCAS-32160, DCAS-32160W, DCAS-34330, DCAS-34330W, DCHS04U, DCHS04Y, DCHS09U, DCMS09Y, DCRS04U, DCHS09F, DDRS-39130W, DDRS-34560, DDRS-34560D, DDRS-34560W, DDRS-39130D, FHSS1F, DFHSS1W, DFHSS2F, DFHSS2W, DFHSS4F, DFHSS4W, DFMSS2F, DFMSS5F, DFRSS2F (2GB), DFRSS4F (4GB), DGHS18U, DGVS-09U, DGVS09Y, DHAS-2540, DMVS09V, DMVS36V, DNES-309170, DNES-309170W, DNES-318350W, DORS-31080, DORS-32160, DORS-32160W, DPES-30540, DPES-30810, DPES-31080, DPRS-20810, DRHS-36D, DRHS36V, DRVS-09V, DRVS-18V, DSAS-3270, DSAS-3360, DSAS-3720, DSAS-3540, DVAS-2810, H2172-S2C, H2344-S4C, H3171-S2, IBM DPRS-21215, IBMRAID DFHSS4F9337, KZ-P (80 MB), KZ-C (160 MB), L12 (900MB), WDS-L160, WDS-L80 (80 MB), WDS2120 (120 MB 2.5"), WDS280 (80 MB 2.5")

(Unless they have a more recent database of supported devices. I'm using version 4 P.E. Personal Edition)

[Eug]

Bump for any new ideas?

I still have this IBM Ultrastar 2XP sitting here, homeless, and an unusable 8500.

If I can get this damn drive to work, I'll consider getting a 128 MB DIMM for the computer.

[HJS]

Originally posted by Eug:
Bump for any new ideas?

I still have this IBM Ultrastar 2XP sitting here, homeless, and an unusable 8500.

If I can get this damn drive to work, I'll consider getting a 128 MB DIMM for the computer.

Hi, I got some drives (from a server) formatted in 520byte blocks, and re-formatted them (low-level) with a modified version of Apple's HD SC setup 7.3.5, to standard 512 and then I was able to re-initialize them with Drive Setup (use at least 1.7.3)-more compatible with newer systems. Also found I could reformat them with FWB 3.02 (probably earlier and later versions as well) but usually prefer to use Apple's drivers if I can.
Email me if you want a copy of the HD SC modified file-this will lowlevel format almost anything ;-) I use it permanently on some of my backup drives that I have to switch between Pluses,Classics, etc and various PCI macs, G3's etc.

[Eug]

Originally posted by HJS:


Hi, I got some drives (from a server) formatted in 520byte blocks, and re-formatted them (low-level) with a modified version of Apple's HD SC setup 7.3.5, to standard 512 and then I was able to re-initialize them with Drive Setup (use at least 1.7.3)-more compatible with newer systems. Also found I could reformat them with FWB 3.02 (probably earlier and later versions as well) but usually prefer to use Apple's drivers if I can.
Email me if you want a copy of the HD SC modified file-this will lowlevel format almost anything ;-) I use it permanently on some of my backup drives that I have to switch between Pluses,Classics, etc and various PCI macs, G3's etc.

I just noticed your message now. Sorry for the (month-long) lag.

I am very interested in this if I can install that IBM drive, since both the computer and the drive are sitting idle at the moment. Your email is inactive though.

[jasonyates]

http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/

This guy seems to have too much time on his hands. Tons of info about formatting SCSI drives as well as several different utilities (including the patched Drive Setup). Enjoy.

-Jason

[Eug]

Originally posted by jasonyates:
http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/

This guy seems to have too much time on his hands. Tons of info about formatting SCSI drives as well as several different utilities (including the patched Drive Setup). Enjoy.

-Jason

Thanks. Sounds promising but it doesn't have the actual files needed, and the links to them are dead.

With the info from your post and HJS's post I now know why that drive won't work. Drive setup doesn't support it without a hack. Bummer.

[jasonyates]

Originally posted by Eug:

Thanks. Sounds promising but it doesn't have the actual files needed, and the links to them are dead.

With the info from your post and HJS's post I now know why that drive won't work. Drive setup doesn't support it without a hack. Bummer.

Oh woops, I didn't look at the links that closely. Only other thing I can recommend is getting something like FWB or I personally use something called Hard Disk Speed Tools.. It seems to recognize most drives.