[graphics84]

I've been trying to use it... but I'm just not happy with the screen redraw in photoshop (classic of course)

here's my situation....

running OS 10.1 with PSD 6.01 using a wacom tablet

my machine has 640megs of ram... but the screen redraw still sucks a lot compared to doing the same tasks in 9.2...

And the Wacom drivers have a glitch with the dock (in mouse mode i think)

what are your opinions

[Agent69]

Classic sucks in my opinion. I don't even install it.

Agent69

[EmAn]

I'm pretty happy with 10.1 on my 500MHz iBook. I haven't booted into 9.2.1 since 10.1 came out.

I'm still waiting for some software updates and a memory chip to land on my doorstep before I do "real" work in OSX. However, I've been playing with my new iBook for a week now and I am quite pleased with the speed. Not a barn burner but pleasantly quick.

If you are using Photoshop alot you should probably just boot into OS9. Even many Carbon apps will need a revision or two before they are properly optimized for OSX <cough, Freehand and Painter, cough>. Classic seems to work quite well, all things considered, but it is definitely a transitional work-around rather than a main environment.

Even OSX has plenty of room for further optimizations. It is and always will be a work in progress. A decent optimizing PPC compiler would help too (GCC is lame).

[jokell82]

I've been using 10.1 full time on my iBook ever since I had 5G48 (a few months ago). After getting the 10.1 retail, I formatted and got rid of 9.2. I've been classic free ever since. I have no problems with 10.1 whatsoever.

[graphics84]

Originally posted by jokell82:
<STRONG>I've been using 10.1 full time on my iBook ever since I had 5G48 (a few months ago). After getting the 10.1 retail, I formatted and got rid of 9.2. I've been classic free ever since. I have no problems with 10.1 whatsoever.</STRONG>

yeah, well can you run Photoshop, Illustrator, or Office 2001 without classic?

I need all of those

[awcopus]

No, you can't run those apps without Classic yet, though Illustrator 10 is shipping NOW and Office for X is due out on Nov. 19th (or something).

Within about 6 months, one hopes, we'll have Photoshop for X. In the meantime, you might consider dumping Classic anyway, at least on your iBook. Keep classic on your desktop for Photoshop work and make the iBook a lean, mean, portable MAChine!

[Milo Waye]

Originally posted by jokell82:
<STRONG> After getting the 10.1 retail, I formatted and got rid of 9.2. I've been classic free ever since.</STRONG>

Cool, I didn't know X would operate less
OS 9. Thanks. First thing I'll do when my 600 Combo arrives..
No modem sound still, with 10.1. Other than that, performance w/ 500/640MB is good. The quirks I've seen, notably Mail.app and IE don't Force Quit at times, not the iBook's fault...

[

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Milo Waye ]

[Agent69]

It's working pretty good for me right now. As I type this, I am browsing the web with Mail in the background. iTunes is also in the background, playing MP3 files being shared by my NT machine.

I tthink that if you use classic apps, you might be better off running Mac OS 9, as it is faster and pretty stable.


Agent69

[OreoCookie]

Window redraw is still slow, especially compared to a G4 (Quartz uses AlitVec if a G4 is installed).
Some clicking is still slow, especially in OmniWeb or when the system is 'busy' (encoding songs in iTunes).

It's usable, but don't expect too much. Classic is usable, but if you make a living with it, you should use OS 9 just a little longer.
E. g. GoLive is significantly faster using OS 9 compared to Classic.
If you have a second machine at home, you should give OS X a try anyway, because it is the future of the Mac.

When an office suite and Maple (symbolic math app) is out, I will delete Classic. (I haven't started it in a long time).

After a year or a year and a half, I am gonna buy a (G4) iBook which should eliminate all speed issues.

[SpeedRacer]

You're running Photoshop full-time. You're using a USB tablet on a regular basis. You're using a G3-based iBook. You're looking for maximum performance. You have a choice between Mac OS 10.1 and Mac OS 9.2.

You shouldnot be running 10.1

We're talking about the difference between 10+ years of OS graphic optimization and developer updates versus a non-default install OS pushing the most graphically-demanding UI's on the planet at roughly 1/2 way to it's full release (according the Jobsian clock analogy) attempting to run an application only supported via a backwards-compatiblity environment on an machine with the least powerful graphics and CPU combination in the current Mac lineup.

IOW... try nine.

Speed

[SeSawaya]

yah well at least you can run it, I've been try to load 10.1 on my 500 ibook for a couple of weeks with no luck. I install and reboot and the screen turns white and locks up. Love to use it but not happening.

[Dr Evil]

Although no one has mentioned it, the Gimp is a decent alternative to Photoshop, or at least until PS is carbonized. I will say that using fink to install xfree86 and the gimp isnt exactly easy for most Mac users, it was definately not brain surgery. My ibook 300/320mb NEVER sees classic, unless its time for a round of starcraft. I use the gimp for my modest graphic editing needs and I have not been disappointed yet. You photoshop gurus might want to check it out.Fink homepage

[GORDYmac]

10.1 is great on my iBook 500. I even fire up Photoshop occasionally, with no problems.

[livemotion]

only use osx on my ibook 500 to impress my freinds, when i want to get work done i boot back into 9.2

If i had a g4, it would be a completely different story.

[graphics84]

I think this just confirms that I need to buy a Tibook around Macworld SF... another 3 grand I don't have but I'm sure apple will be happy to finance...

so that leads to should I wait...

I could.. till Photoshop is OS X native... then I would have more reasons and maybe I could get more bang for my buck on a future 800mhz tibook.... heh that would be cool but could take a year or two

[livemotion]

If I were you I would wait until the end of January, I'm sure apple will be dropping plenty of bombs, maybe even some new g5s.

[anim8ing]

Heyas, I just got my iBook 500/256/Combo today, and I think it runs great in 10.1 No slowdown at all, DVD playback is great. Overall I'm, very happy with the iBook so far. Even Q3 runs decent..About 10FPS greater in 10 than in 9. Overall, can't complain a bit.

Anim8r

[Retrograde]

Anim8r, that's great to hear, I will be getting my hands on an iBook 500 combo at some point and it is nice to hear that you think X runs well.

Originally posted by graphics84:
<STRONG>

yeah, well can you run Photoshop, Illustrator, or Office 2001 without classic?

I need all of those</STRONG>

Since you're a photoshop user, and using OS X- Look at CorelDRAW suite 10 for OS X... In my experience, it's what photoshop for X should be, only available now.

If you were near NC, I would demo it for you. Call Corel and ask them to send you an NFR copy so you can see if you can recommend it to users that are die-hard photoshop users.

Painter 7 is nice too, and it's out..

[Evangellydonut]

Having seen how X.1 performs on my friend's G4/867, I'm definitely NOT happy with its performance on my iBook 500. Yeah, it's a laptop and much cheaper 'n all, but I hardly consider it "satisfactory." Window resizing still too slow, DVD player performance is similar to my G4/450 on 9.2.1, and Divx decoding is plain BAD. Which is why I'll try to OC this baby to 100Mhz bus and 600Mhz CPU...*sigh* I need A LOT of luck doing it...opened it the other day and realized iBook components were 'bout half the size of the smallest components i've soldered thus-far...

[graphics84]

Originally posted by &lt;vmarks&gt;:
<STRONG>

Since you're a photoshop user, and using OS X- Look at CorelDRAW suite 10 for OS X... In my experience, it's what photoshop for X should be, only available now.

If you were near NC, I would demo it for you. Call Corel and ask them to send you an NFR copy so you can see if you can recommend it to users that are die-hard photoshop users.

Painter 7 is nice too, and it's out..</STRONG>

I'll look into it... but PhotoShop has always been a far better professional tool then Corel Draw... I had a lot of problems dealing with it in the past.... I know that I will be buying Adobe Illustrator 10 for my vector art...

let you know what I think when I get a chance to demo it

Modem sound would be nice... anyone know Apple's plans in that regard?

[Milo Waye]

Modem sound would be nice... anyone know Apple's plans in that regard?

Try using a free app called Classihack. It's floating around the OSX forums...it enables the window buffer in Classic, thus getting rid of the white space which is displayed during redraws. I also hide the dock when using Photoshop, or any other Classic application for that matter.

[x user]

I'm very happy with 10.1 on my 500 CD with 320mb ram. I run Photoshop 3.04 in classic and it's pretty quick. Quicker than PS 6 in 9.2

[phyrephox]

Anyone know if there is a defrag like utility for OS X? I finally switched over from win98 after 10.1 came out and it initially ran fine on my 500/384mb ram, but after a couple months use it seems to have slowed down considerably. If I was in windows I'd simply do a defrag....what do I do in macs?

[anim8ing]

As far as built-in, or shareware apps there aren't any available that I know of for X. However, you can try the Disk Utility on the OS X cd. What you need to do is put boot to the CD, and on the menubar at the top you can click on (either finder, or installer i can't remember). Under there there is services, and a drive utility, it's pretty straight forward. Also there is another solution that I know of and that is Drive 10. It's a bootable cd, and it has tons of utils for X. It's also native for X so you don't have to worry about it messing up your drive at all. It's a great tool to have. Check versiontracker and do a search. That will help you the most.


Anim8r

[nigeljedi]

I'm happy with everything except that the finder doesn't seem to want to remember the proper date and time on occasion.

[graphics84]

Originally posted by &lt;seaside&gt;:
<STRONG>Try using a free app called Classihack. It's floating around the OSX forums...it enables the window buffer in Classic, thus getting rid of the white space which is displayed during redraws. I also hide the dock when using Photoshop, or any other Classic application for that matter.</STRONG>

what's the nature of this program/ hack... I don't want screw up my system... It takes it forever to get it back up after a wipe and re-install

and I want to know how that will speed up my redraw problem...

[typoon]

Originally posted by anim8ing:
<STRONG>As far as built-in, or shareware apps there aren't any available that I know of for X. However, you can try the Disk Utility on the OS X cd. What you need to do is put boot to the CD, and on the menubar at the top you can click on (either finder, or installer i can't remember). Under there there is services, and a drive utility, it's pretty straight forward. Also there is another solution that I know of and that is Drive 10. It's a bootable cd, and it has tons of utils for X. It's also native for X so you don't have to worry about it messing up your drive at all. It's a great tool to have. Check versiontracker and do a search. That will help you the most.


Anim8r</STRONG>

Actually you are wrong there is an app that will defrag/optimize OS X 10.1 it is called OptimizeX it can be found at versiontracker

[Milo Waye]

Originally posted by typoon:
<STRONG>Actually you are wrong there is an app that will defrag/optimize OS X 10.1 it is called OptimizeX it can be found at versiontracker</STRONG>

Just searched versiontracker 's OS X section for it and went away SOL; ditto MacDownload. Any other site you can think of ?
Thanks--

[hotani]

Once 10.1 was installed, I started using X full time and have been pleased for the most part. It is slow at times, a little unresponsive sometimes, but workable.

I use PhotoLine for my graphic editing needs, and it is in no way a photoshop replacement, but it gets the job done for most of what I need to do.

Sometimes I boot into 9 just to remember what it is like to work in a really fast environment! It really smokes OS X in speed.

[cc_foo]

I've tried twice to use OSX 10.1.1 on the iBook but have come back to OS 9.2. That is to say I'm not happy with it.

The lack of performance is a major reason. The interface is so sluggish when trying to resize windows. Even with simple things like closing windows, or moving windows around there's a slight delay before things happen. I use Keyboard Maestro (the Program Switcher substitute), and that is so slow. Moving an application from one location to another under OS 9 is instantaneous. Under OSX, there's a short pause and a quick dialog box showing all the little files that are being moved over. It makes all the difference.

One function of OS X that I appreciate is that Apps usually don't make the OS unstable. But I don't think I've been able to fully appreciate the other benefits of OS X. Take multitasking for e.g: When an intensive event such as when Explorer is rendering a page, I can switch to Eudora (etc) to do other things, but I can't switch to another Explorer window to browse another page. It doesn't help that Explorer doesn't seem to be fully optimised for speed either. Surfing is so slow.

I use the window compression technique, and tinkertool to remove the font aliasing functions. Shadowkiller also made things faster but uglier. That said, one major reason I'm not using OS X is that I just do not like the interface, even with X-Assist and DragThing installed. File management is more confusing -- with those Library/Applications/documents folders being repeated in the Users folders. It just feels like I'm fighting against the OS sometimes, to get things done.

All things remaining equal though, if the iBook performance was much much faster, I could live in OS X full time despite it's interface flaws. It sort of feels like using Windows 3.0 for the first time after using DOS + Norton Commander. Sure Windows looked great, had more advanced memory allocation and so on, but the hardware just needed to catch up with the software for people to tolerate the software.

If later versions of OS X will run faster on the iBook 500, then so be it. I'm a pessimist, and think that there won't be much of a speed increment until I get a G4/G5 machine.

iBook500/10G/350+RAM.

[graphics84]

well that last post kinda summed a lot of things up...

I bought my ibook because I thought I would be prepared for the future of the Mac OS (or at least 6 months to a year anyway)...

and low and behold here I am 5 months after the purchase running OS 9... I don't think OS 10 will ever run well on my ibook 500 and to tell you the truth I'm kind of ok with that... after all the operating system that came loaded on my machine was 9 not 10 and if I truly wanted to make sure I had what I needed to do the job I guess I should have waited...

I have to make that stand because I hate those people that where pissed off back in the day when OS 7.6 wouldn't run on there LC 2 anymore...

apple draw the line... do it... but tell us where it's at don't toy with us like a dead mouse...

Fin.

[capuchin]

It's really just a question of whether you're prepared to make the trade off. On one hand, OS 9 is so much faster in so many ways that the initial temptation is to conclude that it's a better OS. On the other hand, the suite of tools built into X is far superior than anything 9 has to offer for what I use it for (network admin).

It's slow as molasses/But it never crashes. Poetry!

c.

PS: Starcraft seems much faster on X. Finally, the killer app we've all been waiting for...

[Chimpmaster]

Im running osx 10.1 on an indigo ibook.

Photoshop is substantially slower in classic than it is os 9.x

I usually reboot into 9.2 if i am going to do more than 1 thing in photshop = ESPECIALLY if this involves cutting and pasting from photoshop to word or dreamweaver, which is hopelessly painful in classic unless you have a g4.

Dont worry, photoshop for x isnt far away.

Office 2001 in classic is also painful, but the new version for x rocks. One tip is if you are onyl doing minor resizing and touching uip of images, try using illustrator for x, which has many of the functions of photoshop. Thats what i do anyway if i am running x and in a rush.

[MacBook]

I have a "late 2001" dual USB iBook, 500MHz with 320MB RAM, and for most things OS 10.1 works pretty well, if a bit slow. But the internet browsers are all like molasses. I'm using Mozilla right now and it seems better, but still slow compared to being in 9.2. I wish that Apple would put a bit more emphasis on speed, since it does relate to productivity and to use. The iBook came with OS 10.1, so I think it should run quicker; it's not a matter of trying to upgrade and expecting great performance. I hope that later editions of OS 10 run faster on my iBook.

[Matsu]

I think, for a laptop, the iBook is a nice little machine, but it isn't neccesarily a nice OSX machine. From what I've read, Apple only sells one legitimate OSX machine: the PowerMac. Anyone else hoping to buy now to use (OSX + major apps) later, won't be happy. It's always bad practice to buy a current machine in hopes of running future software. I would not buy any mac (or PC) untill I've tested it with the apps I intend to use, if those apps aren't even available yet, that should tell you something -- hold off. Computers are always depreciating, thus 'buy now, use later' makes absolutely no sense. Even if it works fine, by the time 'later' rolls around you'd have probably been able to get more for your money.

When you think about it, it's pretty amazing that the old consumer machines made such competent OS9.x units. You could buy an iBook and have very nice performance for even some demanding apps -- photoshop, freehand, etc... This all changes with OSX. At the very least you should wait untill OSX ships as the default. By that time you may even get an 800Mhz G3 (sahara) iBook.

[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: Matsu ]

[MsYvonne]

I have a 500 mhz dual ibook and I think OS X runs great on it. Only thing I can fault it on is the battery usage. But then again I am a fan of OS X. I have it running on my ibook and my 400 mhz imac dv se. Both machines run rock solid other then the occasional problem. I am very happy with both machines and OS X.
Yvonne

[Kestral]

Originally posted by MacBook:
<STRONG>I have a "late 2001" dual USB iBook, 500MHz with 320MB RAM, and for most things OS 10.1 works pretty well, if a bit slow. But the internet browsers are all like molasses. I'm using Mozilla right now and it seems better, but still slow compared to being in 9.2. I wish that Apple would put a bit more emphasis on speed, since it does relate to productivity and to use. The iBook came with OS 10.1, so I think it should run quicker; it's not a matter of trying to upgrade and expecting great performance. I hope that later editions of OS 10 run faster on my iBook.</STRONG>

I have the same iBook config and I agree. It runs OK in OS X, but to know that OS 9 that's also sitting on the hard drive and runs so much faster is a but troubling. The only machine I've seen run OS X amazingly well so far is the dual 800 G4 Tower. I've seen it run adequately on G4 500 mhz single-processor desktop but I agree with you. It's like the 68K to PPC switch all over again. I bought a 6100/60 at the time with promises that when the software becomes native, that this machine would fly. The machine never did sprout wings as promised. Best thing to do at this point is to just hold still with whatever machine you have at the moment if you can, and wait wait wait, until OS X is the default installed OS and it runs well on machines. I was at a computer store yesterday and saw your average POS Compaq Celeron 800 machine running WindowsXP and I couldn't believe how responsive the OS was on such a low powered machine, imo it was more responsive than the dual 800 G4 tower running OS X in the same store. Scary. Hoping that there's a lot more optimizations that can be done on OS X.

[MacBook]

Yes, our other computer is a recently purchased refurbished HP Brio with a Celeron 800MHz to which I added Windows XP a couple of weeks ago. It flies. The web browsing on it is instantaneous, and the system upgrade left the system running perhaps a little faster than before. It also has a lot of nice conveniences, even if it is Windows.

Mac OS 9.x is slower than that, but at least its in the same orbit. OS 10.1 is not. When I want to do something quickly, I resort to Netscape 4.77 in Classic, so all is not lost.

The fact is that I just bought the iBook, in its latest release ("late 2001" they call it), and yet it can't run the current system (at least for network work) in a decent fashion with the current (new) system. That's disappointing, whether it should be or shouldn't be.

[Stan Jobson]

I have to say that 10.1 runs...okay on my iBook 500 w/384mb. I was using 10.1 only since it came out and it was nice...pretty fast and very stable...has just about all my apps...but, after going back to 9 and seeing how fast it is...10.1 isn't as fast as 9...but, it is more stable than 9. I'm not completely happy with 10.1 with it's speed...but, I know most likely in 10.2, it will be able to run very fast on my iBook...now, I just have to wait six-eight months for it to come out.

[Jan Van Boghout]

Me ! iBook + 10.1 =
Mac OS 9 is grey and boring .

[Kestral]

Originally posted by Jan Van Boghout:
<STRONG>Me ! iBook + 10.1 =
Mac OS 9 is grey and boring .</STRONG>

Grey, boring and fast, like a greyhound.

OS X is like the ocean, big, blue and slow.

[Stan Jobson]

Kestral,

Exactly!

Originally posted by Agent69:
<STRONG>Classic sucks in my opinion. I don't even install it.

Agent69 </STRONG>

Hmm, 10.1 on a 500Mhz ibook -&gt; Runs fine for all the things I use X for anyway (internet, music, basic officey stuff).

Not nearly enough SW available to do without 9 yet. I still find myself booting into 9 when I have serious work to do.

[Kestral]

Originally posted by &lt;Just Me&gt;:
<STRONG>Not nearly enough SW available to do without 9 yet. I still find myself booting into 9 when I have serious work to do.</STRONG>

You too the words right out of my mouth! I've been firmly grounded in OS X for the past 2-3 weeks with the very rare booting to OS 9, but today, I had a TON of work I had to catch up on and for some reason, I got frustrated and decided to boot up to OS 9. I hate to admit it, but as much as I love the true multitasking and protected memory of OS X, I find that I am much more productive with OS 9.

System responsiveness makes a huge difference in my workflow, and with OS 9 being *much* more responsive, I find that I can do things faster. Plus, the smaller non-aliased text I find reads easier and therefore I read faster on OS X. And all the little interface quirks that still need to be sorted out in OS X (but are properly implemented in OS 9) added up end up being a huge difference. In any case I spent the early part of the day in OS X and got next to nothing done, but as soon as I booted into OS 9, got a ton of stuff done. I still prefer OS X over OS 9 because of its advantages and for programming, I wouldn't even think of being in OS 9, but I have to say, the system responsiveness needs a *lot* of improvement before I'd consider using it in a real world productive environment.

By the way, I don't do Photoshop or any graphics things, just email/word processing/spreadsheets. I have Office X, but I just find it runs much slower than Office 2001 in OS 9 and it really impacts significantly on my productivity. Also, as someone here mentioned, OS X is application-centric whereas OS 9 is document-centric - I find the document-centric model much more condusive *for me* in a work envirnoment.