[FTrain]

I don't doub this is a stupid question, but I was just talking with a friend who said that nobody does Web development on Macs; that it's just understood that the only decent Web development software is for Windows. Is that true? Clearly I don't know anything about the field, but I am interested in learning more and wanted to buy a new iMac, but now I feel like I need to wait until I start taking classes and then get a PC. Is he completely off-base? What he says seems impossible to me.

[ringo]

Macs are fine for web development. Did your friend give any reasons why the PC is better for development? I'd be curious to hear what they might be.

Cheers,
Ringo

[CommonSense]

As a former employee of AGENCY.COM in New York, regarded (at least as of a couple of years ago) as one of the top five web development shops in the world, I can tell you authoritatively that your friend is full of crap.

When I worked at AGENCY (yes, the all-caps is obnoxious, but as they hammered into our heads, that's how you type it), we did all our work on Macs. Toward the end of my days there, they did start to phase in PCs, but generally only for non-web development staff, hardcore UNIX/backend developers (remember, this was before OS X), or if an employee specifically asked for one.

Hell, a few years ago, the overwhelming majority of sites on the web were developed on a Mac (according to independent research). I'd venture to guess that a very high percentage still are. OS X can only be helping.

[kido]

i do web development on a mac all the time. in fact, there has never been a better time to do web development than on macosx. check out
http://developer.apple.com/internet/ to see a few reasons. additionally, i have found applescript is incredibly helpful on macosx for producing html. you also have perl, apache, openssl, and php installed out of the box.

it's a great environment and only getting better.

[philzilla]

next time you see your 'friend', give him a slap from all of us. then, inbeween slaps (there's a lot of us here), ask him if he has the most widely used web server app built in to his OS, allowing him to test cgi & mysql/php on his machine, without much effort? installing mysql and php is a matter of clicks, then you're off. web server? click the Web Sharing On button.

i'm betting money that this person hasn't used a mac much lately, if at all.

you're a mac user. think different

[Nonsuch]

I'm betting your friend is a FrontPage user. That second-rate assemblage of crap makes it very easy to build ugly, bandwidth-hogging vanity sites with reams of flashing headlines, mouse trails, bad music, and other affronts to good taste; it's arguably responsible for bringing more ugliness into the world than any other product in modern computing other than Windows itself. It is a credit to all Mac users that a Mac version of FrontPage not only doesn't exist, but that any such version would be met with universal scorn. Might want to ask your friend if he's acquainted with a real HTML editor.

[Subzero Diesel949]

Give your friend a b!tchslap for the rest of us...

All you need is TextEdit, BBEdit, or any other text editor, Photoshop, QuickTime Pro, and some way to upload your files.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by FTrain:
<STRONG>I don't doub this is a stupid question, but I was just talking with a friend who said that nobody does Web development on Macs; that it's just understood that the only decent Web development software is for Windows. Is that true? Clearly I don't know anything about the field, but I am interested in learning more and wanted to buy a new iMac, but now I feel like I need to wait until I start taking classes and then get a PC. Is he completely off-base? What he says seems impossible to me.</STRONG>

With all due respect, not only is your friend utterly off-base, I doubt he even has a concept of what on-base means.

Here are a few links you might want to show your friend:

Apache, the most popular Web server software in the world. And it's shipped with every Mac by default. Note that extensions for using ASP and the FrontPage extensions are also available (and you thought these were just Windows/IIS only... think again!)
WebDAV, the real name for what Microsoft calls "Web folders". Ships with every Mac, and is completely compatible.
Perl, the language often called "the duct tape of the Internet", and PHP, one of the three most popular dynamic-Website languages out there. Both are, once again, shipped with every Mac.
BBEdit, one of the most popular text-based HTML editors in existence. Mac-only.
GoLive, one of the two most popular WYSIWYG editors, out now. The other one, DreamWeaver, is coming. While we're on the subject of Adobe, note Illustrator and Photoshop, the most popular image editors in their respective fields.

While I don't claim to know your friend, I can say with some confidence that in this field, he is utterly clueless.

[wataru]

... so in conclusion, no, you can't do web development with OS X.

[larkost]

Just a couple of points:

Both of the main high-end website-development apps (DreamWeaver and GoLive) are cross-platform (WinXX and MacOS 9). GoLive is also out for MacOS X, and DreamWeaver is on the way. Other tools for Web development such as BBEdit (fills the same role as HomeSite on Windows), Photoshop, Illustrator, Freehand, FireWorks, Director, Flash, and LiveMotion are all on MacOS 9 and either available or coming soon natively to MacOS X.

FrontPage (Microsoft's page builder and proprietary extensions) is only available as a older version (a few years older) on the mac. FrontPage is not in the same league as DW anf GL. There is also the old war-horse of Claris HomePage that is still being maintained for FileMaker Pro, which is comparible to FrontPage in terms of features (but produces better html).

As others have pointed out, MacOS X is a first class web server. Out of the box it has Apache, Perl, PHP, and support for compiled CGI's...this is MacOS X client we are talking about, not MacOS X Server. In addition Jacarta Tomcat installs seamlessly (JSP server for free), as does Cocoon (XSLT), and JBoss (EJB server).

If you shell out for MacOS X Server (costs less than WinXP Professional), you get all this plus a deployment license for WebObjects (an incredible WebApplication environment), and pre-installed MySQL and QuickTime Streaming Servers (both of which are again free for install into client).

What do you not get? IIS and .Net. IIS is Microsoft's web server (and the basis for whatever they call personal web serving), and includes the ASP language. If you are willing to only write in Perl, there is a free Perl based ASP server that you can install, and there is a commercially available Java version (ony can interpret JScript) that might work (never tried it myself). But if you are welded to ASP then you are welded to Microsoft. I myself perfer PHP for that end of development, and WebObjects for the heavy end.

.Net... well I won't get into that. Oh... and ColdFusion is also not avalible. So that means that out of the 6 main WebApplication Development environments (ASP/.Net, PHP, Perl, ColdFusion, compiled CGI, JSP) MacOS X covers four of them, three of those right out of the box (client.. MacOS X Server get all four). WindowsXP does get all six of them, but only one of them out of the box, and you have to move to the more expensive versions of WindowsXP (Server and DataCenter) to get unlimited functionality out of them (no restrictions in MacOS X either version).

So, I would guess your friend is an ASP developer, and thus for him the Macintosh platform is not viable, but for everyone else, yes it is. In fact it is a more compatible (with big iron web servers) environment.

[jguidroz]

Don't forget Webobjects. Once I learn Obj-c good, gonna start on Java so I can do Webobjects too.

[torifile]

Really, as the others have said, your friend is absolutely clueless in this area. Any web developer worth the air he breathes knows that if it can be done on the web, it should be done with the tools that are available for Mac OS X. That is, open source stuff. Not the proprietary crap that MS has like ASP and .Net. He's taken a few classes taught at a community college that uses frontpage 98 and some ASP and he thinks that that's all there is and because they're not available on the Mac that you can't do web dev on it.

I would never, ever dream of attempting web dev on anything other than my trusty iBook. Yes, you heard properly. On my iBook. I've got a complete web server running on my portable powerhouse. PHP, mySQL, perl, java, webobjects (like java, but not really). SSL, mail server. All there. Why would you want to use anything else? Let me just say that I never would have started working on my current projects in grad school (web-based treatments) if not for my first dl'ed copy of DP4 of OS X. Since then it's been getting better. I'm interested in seeing how much of the built in webserver capabilities the latest versions of GL and DW leverage. If they make extensive use of them, they will leave their windows counterparts in the dust. My 4�.

[Xeo]

Thought I'd throw in my personal experiences here. I do all my web work in OS X (Apache, PHP, MySQL). I've never had a problem with it. I like knowing that my entire website, everything about it, could easily transfer to a Linux box or even a Windows box and still work perfectly, all because the most used web development software ships with OS X.

BBEdit is the absolute best editor I've seen and it's Mac only. As for WYSIWYG editors, they exist for those who like that sort of thing.

OS X really is sweet.

[crayz]

Does anyone actually have GoLive6 Final in their hands right now? And Dreamweaver isn't out for OS X at all. I would hardly say OS X is the best web development platform ever.

[juanvaldes]

Originally posted by larkost:
<STRONG>.Net... well I won't get into that. Oh... and ColdFusion is also not avalible. So that means that out of the 6 main WebApplication Development environments (ASP/.Net, PHP, Perl, ColdFusion, compiled CGI, JSP) MacOS X covers four of them, three of those right out of the box (client.. MacOS X Server get all four). WindowsXP does get all six of them, but only one of them out of the box, and you have to move to the more expensive versions of WindowsXP (Server and DataCenter) to get unlimited functionality out of them (no restrictions in MacOS X either version).
</STRONG>

Of those two things that the mac doesn't have. Are they M$ proprietary stuff or has no one ever bothered to bring them to the mac?

[Rainy Day]

Originally posted by larkost:
<STRONG>So, I would guess your friend is an ASP developer, and thus for him the Macintosh platform is not viable, but for everyone else, yes it is. In fact it is a more compatible (with big iron web servers) environment.</STRONG>

Real web developers don't use ASP (and they don't eat quiche either ).

[cwasko]

Originally posted by crayz:
<STRONG>Does anyone actually have GoLive6 Final in their hands right now? And Dreamweaver isn't out for OS X at all. I would hardly say OS X is the best web development platform ever.</STRONG>

Yes, infact I do. It arrived at 8:50 yesterday morning.

GoLive, combined with all the open source stuff (MySQL, PHP, etc), BBEdit.. WTF else do you need??? I'm with one of the above readers... I have all this running on my iBook, and now with GoLive for OSX... this thing is unstoppable. Basically, on this Oct 2001 iBook I can perform every aspect of the web development workflow. Graphic design, develop, integrate, database, and serve. How is this not the ultimate web developing machine?

Heck, if ur real savy you can set up a DNS on the OSX box and serve all your pages as if they were on a production sever.. only you don't even need a connection.

So: $1299 ibook, $399 GoLive, $120 BBedit (or whatever the price is now), all the free server software, and you have yourself the most flexible web development platform available. Sure, it doesn't do ASP and .Net... but who really wants to?

[Sharky K.]

he said mac in general not macos x...

He doesn't know ****.

btw, Golive was for a long time MacOS only

[pumpkinapo]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
<STRONG>he said mac in general not macos x...

He doesn't know ****.

btw, Golive was for a long time MacOS only </STRONG>

That's right. Versions 1, 2 and 3 were Mac only. I still have copies of them all, somewhere .

[FTrain]

Thanks everybody. I appreciate the feedback. I thought he was totally off when he said that but he's a die-hard Windows nut (no, I don't understand how you can be one of those, either) and I didn't want to argue with him.

I've asked many questions about present-day Macs and the Mac OS, and I still can't find any reason not to buy a Mac. Again, I appreciate all the feedback.

Now, one last question about this that I'm going to post over in the iMac room because it's more appropriate over there. Please follow me over there.

[sambeau]

HOORAY!

Something I REALLY know about.

OSX is without a doubt the *best* place to do web development, with the following caveats:

1) None of the Macromedia tools work with it. Even in Classic they are mostly unusable.

2) You need to check every page you make on a PC. A PC emulator will probably do (though I just use an old PC).

3) Browser side Java and the Mac don't get on.

4) There just isn't a really good telnet client out there yet. Transit is Buggy and the rest are either over featured or underdone.

The advantages are huge. Mostly due to the fact that you can run a Webserver on the same machine that you are building your pages/cgi's on. No telnet needed. C, Perl, PHP all come ready to go, MySQl installs in minutes.

I work for a medium sized internet design/development company. All our designers use macs (running OS9), our Developers use a Mix of PC's and Macs. I and another of the Programmers use a Mac with OSX. One of the Developers uses OSX. I run an OSX server. All are Servers are Sun or Linux.

However, I have noted that a lot of our staff have stated that they would prefer a Mac as their next machine.

As soon as we have full set of Design tools for OSX, the Designers are moving up.

You can't beat a Mac with Unix underneath. The internet was built by Macs for Unix. Period.

[EddieDesignsDotCom]

just check out http://www.blueskyheart.com , http://www.pixeljerk.com , http://www.k10k.net and http://www.eddiedesigns.com to name but a few...

ALL 100% MADE ON MACS.

I Love This Thread! I Love My Mac! I Love OS X! And I Love You Guys for being on the same superior level as myself ;p
(oh those ignorant, narrow minded, gullible microsuckers! )

[EddieDesignsDotCom]

sambeau,


1. Dreamweaver works fine in Classic, but GoLive, Page Spinner, BBEdit all work natively in OS X. [what ever happened to Apple's WYSIWYG Editor from Public Beta?]

2. True (well for IE anyways, Netscape is more consistent across the board)

3. Install the latest jave 2 (1.3.1?) update out this week.

4. Open up Terminal, type: telnet

simple.

[jwblase]

However, as much as all these tools are good for:

Is there a decent, low-end WYSIWYG HTML tool out there that's OS X native other than mozilla?

Don't spout about the "BBEdit is the only tool you *really* need" crap. Some of us (particularly my students in clas) need a low-end visual builder.

Anyone that built one for OS X would make a lot of shareware fees.

JB

[anarkisst]

My Mac Users Group just moved their web site to an OS X Server. He could be of help if you need it. It sure runs faster now. He uses most of the tools and apps mentioned above.
http://www.macbus.org

[mefogus]

&gt;3) Browser side Java and the Mac don't get on.

This seems like a huge problem to me.

-m

[JLL]

Originally posted by pumpkinapo:
<STRONG>

That's right. Versions 1, 2 and 3 were Mac only. I still have copies of them all, somewhere .</STRONG>

And the version before those. When CyberStudio Pro was released they started over with the versioning (I don't remember how far CyberStudio got before the name change).

[Angus_D]

Freeway is pretty good, Mac-only and should be OS X native REALLY soon.

[hyperizer]

I actually bought OS X just to do JSP development. Between Jakarta Tomcat and Apache, you can set up a development environment similar to the Unix boxes most companies use as servers. Plus you can install MySQL, etc. I do all my development with BBEdit. To be honest, I only boot into OS X when I have dynamix Web pages to write--it strikes me as too clunky for day-to-day use and graphics work. But that's another thread...