[macgyvr64]

I've been doing web stuff for some time now, and I've gone from GoLive 5 to 6 to CS, and CS is the absolute worst thing ever. And I refuse to use Macromedia stuff.

For the time being, I'm just using SubEthaEdit (with a smattering of BBEdit for finding and replacing things) and a few browsers to test with. However, writing HTML is still kind of a pain to write by hand; I know what I want to do but I can't do it fast enough. Will we ever see a GoLive-type Mac OS X native HTML editor? Is there one that I haven't heard about?

[derbs]

Why do you refuse to use macromedia stuff? I use Dreamweaver mx2004, and i couldn't really ask for any more from an html editor.

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face!

[philzilla]

what derbs said. be realistic.

[derbs]

do you use DW phil?

[Millennium]

Why does it matter that it be Cocoa? The APIs used to create an app are ultimately meaningless in the end, so long as the whole thing is done well.

[-Q-]

^
|
|
What he said.

Although I find DW MX04 to be painfully slow. I've stuck with DW MX until they can get that worked out. And I find DW MX to be very useful.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by derbs:
do you use DW phil?

yeah. i've used it since version 1. i was a pc user back then (not through choice, i can assure you), and GoLive (CyberStudio 3, at the time), was Mac-Only. i'd only just gotten into the game, so DW1 & FW1 were plenty for me to get stuck into. a mate kept harping on about me getting a Mac and using CyberStudio, etc. he defected to DW for a year or two, but is back in the GoLive camp now.

i guess it was just what i was used to, from using Dreamweaver for so long. i always checked every now version of GoLive, but always went back to Dreamweaver.

i've got GoLive CS sat on the shelf in front of me (i didn't buy the standalone version, it was part of the Creative Suite). when i have time, i guess i should try and investigate it properly.

"when i have time..."

[derbs]

haha i used to use cyberstudio as well! I'll always remember trying to figure out how to do rollovers. Damn that must have been 1998-99, when i did the first outrage website (www.outrage.co.uk), not my site anymore

I did a flash intro for them as well, i'll see if i can dig it out. You guys would piss yourselves laughing


Those were the days

[Turias]

It's all about BBEdit and emacs.

[derbs]

Originally posted by Turias:
It's all about BBEdit and emacs.

haha. web development for masochists

[edit] although i don't know what i'd do without my bbedit

[philzilla]

Originally posted by Turias:
It's all about BBEdit and emacs.

too true

i was waiting for someone to say something like "all you need is vi!" but i see we got emacs instead

[macgyvr64]

I just like the look and feel (and speed!) of Cocoa apps. They're just...nicer. I think because I've learned on Adobe products, all the Macromedia stuff seems strange.

[Turias]

Originally posted by macgyvr64:
I just like the look and feel (and speed!) of Cocoa apps.

Done right, there should be no noticable different between Cocoa and Carbon apps with respect to look, feel, or speed.

*Cue people who know the incredibly minor, nit-pickey differences (read: bugs) between the two*

[macgyvr64]

It's not so much the carbonizing that bothers me...just the general suckiness of GoLive. I'd like something that doesn't try to do everything for me.

[Chris O'Brien]

Originally posted by Turias:
It's all about BBEdit and emacs.

I've never got used to using WYSIWYG editors (ever since I used FrontPage back in 97/98). Before I got a mac a few years back I only used Notepad. Hardcore

Oh, and go vi! emacs is bloatware!!!!

[Diggory Laycock]

I use SubEthaEdit - it's free and cocoa and has nice Syntax highlighting for HTML / PHP.

Also it can do webkit previews.

You might also consider
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~deutschj/HyperEdit/

[Mooga2]

You might want to give PageSpinner a try - it's a fast editor with live previews. I was disappointed with the speed of Dreamweaver MX and MX2004, especially when working on sites larger than 100 pages.

With PageSpinner, you can even setup PHP on your machine, and have it spit out dynamic previews while you work on your sites.

http://www.optima-system.com/pagespinner/

It's not a WYSIWYG, but it's only as hardcore as you want to make it.

- Moo!

[Synotic]

Originally posted by Turias:
Done right, there should be no noticable different between Cocoa and Carbon apps with respect to look, feel, or speed.

*Cue people who know the incredibly minor, nit-pickey differences (read: bugs) between the two*

But generally it isn't done right. Carbonized programs like GoLive and Dreamweaver certainly aren't "done right". Cocoa applications are generally seen better simply because it gives all its apps freebies such as a consistent interface, spell checking etc... I agree that Carbon apps can be as good as Cocoa apps, most of the time they aren't.

[macgyvr64]

Originally posted by Synotic:
But generally it isn't done right. Carbonized programs like GoLive and Dreamweaver certainly aren't "done right". Cocoa applications are generally seen better simply because it gives all its apps freebies such as a consistent interface, spell checking etc... I agree that Carbon apps can be as good as Cocoa apps, most of the time they aren't.

Exactly what I was going to say :-P

I like HyperEdit a lot! It's built with Cocoa (*grins*), has live previews, is made for HTML and PHP, hot-key templates, and it can execute PHP. I think I'll stick with it as long as I can get it to NOT execute my php all the time. Is there a way to do that?

[Diggory Laycock]

Originally posted by macgyvr64:
Exactly what I was going to say :-P

I like HyperEdit a lot! It's built with Cocoa (*grins*), has live previews, is made for HTML and PHP, hot-key templates, and it can execute PHP. I think I'll stick with it as long as I can get it to NOT execute my php all the time. Is there a way to do that?

"tools menu -> show options pallette"

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Synotic:
But generally it isn't done right. Carbonized programs like GoLive and Dreamweaver certainly aren't "done right". Cocoa applications are generally seen better simply because it gives all its apps freebies such as a consistent interface, spell checking etc... I agree that Carbon apps can be as good as Cocoa apps, most of the time they aren't.

True. Though it should be noted that Cocoa does not give a "consistent interface" for free; that still takes work.

I agree that Carbon has not done enough to offer Cocoa's system-integration features in an easy-to-program manner; auto-spellcheck is just one example of that. However, this does not, in and of itself, make it any worse.

This will all change, anyway. The work of reimplementing Carbon has been continuing in 10.3, and as more of Carbon is reimplemented to match Cocoa's feature set, more of Cocoa is rewritten as layers on top of Carbon. The day will come -probably not for at least two major releases yet, but it will come- when Cocoa is little more than a shell on top of Carbon, and the best part is no one will notice, because both APIs will have achieved real feature-parity. Hopefully by that time, Carbon will have more of Cocoa's features in a more reasonable manner.

[velodev]

Do a search for skEdit.

I used to BBedit all the time, however skEdit was a nice breath of fresh air. Too much going on in BBedit these days for a simple "do it by hand" developer.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by velodev:
Do a search for skEdit.

worth noting, thanks. syntax colouring leaves a bit to be desired though.

[Sharky K.]

just build your pages with CSS ( CSSEdit )... beter than WYSIWYG

[philzilla]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
just build your pages with CSS ( CSSEdit )... beter than WYSIWYG

thread title: Will we ever see a Cocoa HTML editor?

[Jan Van Boghout]

Originally posted by philzilla:
thread title: Will we ever see a Cocoa HTML editor?

Writing a wysiwyg HTML editor is a pain. Trust me, I know It's certainly doable, but linking the HTML with visual elements properly is pretty damn hard. And even if you take another approach, it stays a big task

[philzilla]

i see you've stopped playing that game in the Lounge then? good, good.

bug me in a few days, when i should have something to show you

[Jan Van Boghout]

Originally posted by philzilla:
i see you've stopped playing that game in the Lounge then? good, good.

bug me in a few days, when i should have something to show you

It took me a while to get that damn screw driver, but I got out Something to show? Sounds interesting, can I know now?

[philzilla]

Originally posted by Jan Van Boghout:
Something to show? Sounds interesting, can I know now?

nah. it will be better to see the final version, which i should be getting back any day.

[redJag]

Anyone know of a text editor with syntax highlighting and tabs for each open document? Or just one with tabs.

[derbs]

Originally posted by philzilla:
nah. it will be better to see the final version, which i should be getting back any day.

What are you guys talking about...?

[quietjim]

I have the whole Macromedia MX 2004 suite but I use a Pismo and Dreamweaver was sooooo slow. I ended up doing a lot in the code editor which would promptly crash every once in a while anyway.

Then I discovered CSSEdit and skEdit . Like falling in love: that same oh this is so damn easy feel to it.

Skedit does code completion etc etc and has a fast preview. CSSEdit got me through that awkward "there are so many possibilities" phase of learning CSS and makes it like a good game to play with stylesheets.

I think they're each abou $20 (and yes, I own registered copies of both!). I have no connection with the authors at all, just like to praise great software. At this point, I still use fireworks for some of the graphics and occasionally flash but I haven't even had Dreamweaver open in a month.

[Nebagakid]

SubEthaEdit all the way baby!

[Sharky K.]

Originally posted by philzilla:
thread title: Will we ever see a Cocoa HTML editor?

if you know CSS you won't need any HTML WYSIWYG editor...

[philzilla]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
if you know CSS you won't need any HTML WYSIWYG editor...

tsk tsk, we don't roll our eyes in this forum, sonny.

[hotani]

My problem with DW is that it is not the same app as on PC - most of the stuff is there - but what I really want is the 'developer view' option, where the open windows are tabbed like cold fusion studio or homesite.

Hell just give me homesite with built-in ftp and I'm happy.

(oh BTW... all you need is vi! )

[ameat]

this suggestion probably won't fly given the crying for cocoa over carbon, yet may i suggest a java app? i do development both at work on a pc and at home on osx using jedit. it doesn't have any live preview features but has a very similar interface to homesite, complete with tabbed windows, excellence search and replace, file browser (w/ftp), and a load of other useful plugins.

give it a shot if you can get over the interface. admittedly, i use subethaedit most of the time...

[insha]

I use DW for most of my development; but I have to admit it is slow (I doubt I will upgrade to MX 2004 anytime soon -- didn't really like the trial). The only thing that I like is the code editor and the layout views. The WYSIWYG view is horrible, fortunately I have no use for it.

I also use BBedit and CSSEdit (Kick Ass apps, both of them).

As for Cocoa vs. Carbon -- I was under the impression that Carbon was only made available so that the the developers of the OS 9 or prior OS could port their apps easily and quickly to work under OS X. As Apple is pushing Cocoa development more so than Carbon. Now that OS 9 is dead (for the most part) and most of the developers have Carbonized their application; so now they should be able to move them to Cocoa somewhat easily.

But I love developing in Cocoa; it's clean and efficient; so I might be biased.

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by macgyvr64:
I've been doing web stuff for some time now, and I've gone from GoLive 5 to 6 to CS, and CS is the absolute worst thing ever. And I refuse to use Macromedia stuff.

For the time being, I'm just using SubEthaEdit (with a smattering of BBEdit for finding and replacing things) and a few browsers to test with. However, writing HTML is still kind of a pain to write by hand; I know what I want to do but I can't do it fast enough. Will we ever see a GoLive-type Mac OS X native HTML editor? Is there one that I haven't heard about?

I'm still finding it hard to work out why Golive CS is the worst thing ever. It feels a bit faster than GL6 and a lot of the tools have been given some polish. In fact for some tasks it's a hell of a lot easier to use CS than BBEdit (which I use for coding with).

Any thoughts from anyone else?

[macgyvr64]

They added some CSS nicities, but quite often, the Layout mode forgets to update, making me go tweak somethding else, only to have both changes take effect, then I have to undo one.. etc etc

For starters.

[wackymacs]

I use golive CS and its excellent! i also use Dreamweaver MX(6.0, not 2004) and its good enough, i also have BBEdit but it doesn't do much for me, and SubEthaEdit is nice to play around with...

My first HTML app was pagemill which was adobe's web app before golive, Golive 6 and before is very like pagemill, its kinda lame and has a bad UI but CS is a HUGE jump and its much better than dreamweaver!

[selowitch]

I agree that DW is an awfully bloated, slow beast, but I still use it on occasion for when I'm doing work with tables or when I really need to see what's happening as I work. Of course, its WYSIWYG engine doesn't reflect CSS, which is a drag.

For the majority of my work, I simply edit my files inside Transmit, which also features an excellent FTP system. That way I don't have to switch apps. The new version lets me use PageSpinner as an external editor, so if I feel like seeing my code colored for syntax, I can do that. It's handy when things get a little more complex.

One feature of PS I'd like to try is creating custom tags (e.g., for my work in Lasso/LDML) so that PS can recognize them.

[nickday]

Just a quick note, the performance of Dreamweaver is much improved if you install the 7.0.1 patch from the Macromedia site.

Nick

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Turias:
It's all about BBEdit and emacs.

Nope.
Don't forget vim

I did my website 100 % on vim. I don't like emacs

[crystalthunder]

Goto the Software Forum and check out this new Cocoa HTML editing App called Tag. It's pretty sexy

[wataru]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
if you know CSS you won't need any HTML WYSIWYG editor...

This is the correct answer

[selowitch]

Originally posted by wataru:
This is the correct answer

Right. He'll need a WYSIWYG CSS editor instead! :-)

All kidding aside, I still use a WYSIWYG HTML editor (Dreamweaver) in certain situations, like a complex series of nested tables. It's just easier in certain situations to see a live preview of how things will look in the browser.

Mostly, however, I handcode in a nice text editor/FTP app like Transmit. It's much faster for everyday web work.

[genevish]

Originally posted by redJag:
Anyone know of a text editor with syntax highlighting and tabs for each open document? Or just one with tabs.

As someone already mentioned, jEdit has these features. It's fairly fast for a java app, and has a range of nice plugins you can add on.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Millennium:
True. Though it should be noted that Cocoa does not give a "consistent interface" for free; that still takes work.

I agree that Carbon has not done enough to offer Cocoa's system-integration features in an easy-to-program manner; auto-spellcheck is just one example of that. However, this does not, in and of itself, make it any worse.

This will all change, anyway. The work of reimplementing Carbon has been continuing in 10.3, and as more of Carbon is reimplemented to match Cocoa's feature set, more of Cocoa is rewritten as layers on top of Carbon. The day will come -probably not for at least two major releases yet, but it will come- when Cocoa is little more than a shell on top of Carbon, and the best part is no one will notice, because both APIs will have achieved real feature-parity. Hopefully by that time, Carbon will have more of Cocoa's features in a more reasonable manner.

What if I offered you guys something written in Java Swing? Would you run a mile?

Java Swing can take advantage of things like the MacOS systemwide spellchecking. (That's Java Swing, not Java Cocoa!) But it's incredibly hard and, if anyone thinks it's worthwhile putting that much effort in, they usually go cocoa.

I think it's similar with carbon/cocoa. People tend to use carbon if they have a reason... if no reason either way then they learn cocoa. And people who've started from scratch like that tend to be more open to adding the systemwide 'nicities'... and the fact that they learn cocoa means that can be done easily.


Amorya

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by Mooga2:
You might want to give PageSpinner a try - it's a fast editor with live previews. I was disappointed with the speed of Dreamweaver MX and MX2004, especially when working on sites larger than 100 pages.

With PageSpinner, you can even setup PHP on your machine, and have it spit out dynamic previews while you work on your sites.

http://www.optima-system.com/pagespinner/

It's not a WYSIWYG, but it's only as hardcore as you want to make it.

- Moo!

funny I never got the live PHP previews to actually work.