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Extremists given a free hand
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Sickster
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Sep 2, 2008, 10:20 PM
 
While I appreciate Cold Warrior locking a serious feedback thread for no apparent reason, I would like to broaden the discussion. Why are right wing extremists given a free hand to abuse others in the PL, while everyone else is banned for responding in kind? This is a serious question - I think it's appropriate to allow discussion.
     
sek929
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Sep 2, 2008, 10:26 PM
 
Political discussions go elsewhere, dumbass.
     
Sickster  (op)
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Sep 2, 2008, 10:46 PM
 
Thanks for the personal attack. This is a serious piece of feedback, not a political discussion.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Sep 2, 2008, 10:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sickster View Post
While I appreciate Cold Warrior locking a serious feedback thread for no apparent reason, I would like to broaden the discussion. Why are right wing extremists given a free hand to abuse others in the PL, while everyone else is banned for responding in kind? This is a serious question - I think it's appropriate to allow discussion.
One word...

vmarks!

He's the sole mod in the PL and he is extreme right wing.

Edit: Sole is that right? Sounds like a fish or a heel.
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 2, 2008, 10:51 PM
 
No personal attacks by any handle, Atomic Rooster. You are the reason your threads get closed, not some grand conspiracy.
     
Sickster  (op)
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Sep 2, 2008, 11:04 PM
 
One more attempt at a serious discussion on this problem - please don't censor serious feedback, however embarrassing you might find it.
     
reader50
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Sep 2, 2008, 11:07 PM
 
A well-known member ran up repeated infraction tempbans, mostly for behavior in the Pol/War Lounge. Much of it was from personal attacks. Going beyond the issues to insult/attack other members.

Alternate handles of this member repeated the performance, though not while the primary handle was tempbanned - we appreciate that. Finally, after warnings, 31 infractions (18 in PL), and 3+ tempbans, the first couple handles were banned from the PL.

Right afterwards, a couple new handles turned up to continue PL activities. They were banned from the PL. We're watching a dozen-odd additional handles to see if they belong to the same individual. Considering that two of the suspected alternates were permabanned in years past, this seems like a very restrained response.

If you wish to regain PL access, ask in a few months. Developing a civil post history in the other forums in the meantime would be a big plus, especially after the 7 Lounge infractions.

No extremist wings were injured while filming this post, on either side.
     
Sickster  (op)
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Sep 2, 2008, 11:16 PM
 
This thread is not about an individual being banned - the issue here is systematic bias in moderation in the PL.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Sep 2, 2008, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
A well-known member ran up repeated infraction tempbans, mostly for behavior in the Pol/War Lounge. Much of it was from personal attacks. Going beyond the issues to insult/attack other members.

Alternate handles of this member repeated the performance, though not while the primary handle was tempbanned - we appreciate that. Finally, after warnings, 31 infractions (18 in PL), and 3+ tempbans, the first couple handles were banned from the PL.

Right afterwards, a couple new handles turned up to continue PL activities. They were banned from the PL. We're watching a dozen-odd additional handles to see if they belong to the same individual. Considering that two of the suspected alternates were permabanned in years past, this seems like a very restrained response.

If you wish to regain PL access, ask in a few months. Developing a civil post history in the other forums in the meantime would be a big plus, especially after the 7 Lounge infractions.

No extremist wings were injured while filming this post, on either side.
Hell I couldn't post anything in the PL without vmarks giving me an infraction.

He knew as I had stated that I was anti-zionist. He hates me and busted my balls for anything. He should not be a biased active participant and the lone mod or a mod at all in PL.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Sep 3, 2008, 12:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
A well-known member ran up repeated infraction tempbans, mostly for behavior in the Pol/War Lounge. Much of it was from personal attacks. Going beyond the issues to insult/attack other members.

Alternate handles of this member repeated the performance, though not while the primary handle was tempbanned - we appreciate that. Finally, after warnings, 31 infractions (18 in PL), and 3+ tempbans, the first couple handles were banned from the PL.

Right afterwards, a couple new handles turned up to continue PL activities. They were banned from the PL. We're watching a dozen-odd additional handles to see if they belong to the same individual. Considering that two of the suspected alternates were permabanned in years past, this seems like a very restrained response.

If you wish to regain PL access, ask in a few months. Developing a civil post history in the other forums in the meantime would be a big plus, especially after the 7 Lounge infractions.

No extremist wings were injured while filming this post, on either side.
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
No personal attacks by any handle, Atomic Rooster. You are the reason your threads get closed, not some grand conspiracy.


Why not call a spade a spade. Which would of course would be more bullship.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Sep 3, 2008, 02:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sickster View Post
While I appreciate Cold Warrior locking a serious feedback thread for no apparent reason, I would like to broaden the discussion. Why are right wing extremists given a free hand to abuse others in the PL, while everyone else is banned for responding in kind? This is a serious question - I think it's appropriate to allow discussion.
Thanx Sickster,

They think I'm you or you are me or something. They aren't 100% sure but they busted my balls for your posts. Which are perfectly true by the way. I've been told to **** off and other gross personal attacks and I'm the one who gets busted by vmarks for responding in kind for my defense. Total bullcrappy.

Just stay outta there. You'll feel much better and I'll get less crap piled on me as the fall guy.

I don't go in there and I still get the shaft for what goes on in there. Go figure.
     
Laminar
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Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Sep 3, 2008, 11:33 AM
 
You poor, poor victim. :'(
     
zombie punk
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Sep 3, 2008, 02:39 PM
 
There is a very serious problem with moderation in the PL. Anyone who cares to look can see it. There is massive systematic bias against users with some political opinions and huge latitude given to those with others. It needs to be fixed unless the PL is supposed to be an exclusive club for people who agree with each other.

As an aside, it seems that I have been blocked from the PL, without any apparent reason, or even notification. I can only assume it is for disagreeing with VMarks.
     
Big Mac
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Sep 3, 2008, 03:29 PM
 
I don't envy the administrative task of having to control some of the childish personalities who find their way to the forums.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
subego
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Sep 3, 2008, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
As an aside, it seems that I have been blocked from the PL, without any apparent reason

None whatsoever?

Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
I can't help you with your goldfish brain.
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Are you smoking crack?
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Then WTF are you talking about - please try to post an intelligible summary.
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
You think that responding with insults covers up the fact that you are utterly clueless?
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
It's code for 'idiotic troll'.
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
You've also been wrong on every single thread you've posted on that I've read.
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
if you find educating yourself about an issue boring, that explains your posts.
     
subego
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Sep 3, 2008, 03:36 PM
 
Oh, and cue the "they started it so I deserve immunity" defense.
     
Andhee
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:04 PM
 
I don't know what this fuss is about people thinking the mods are being too strict, theyre fine.
Macbook mid 2007: 2Gb Ram, Intel core 2 duo, 2.16GHz, 500Gb HDD, Snow Leopard 10.6.6
HTC HD7 (Windows Phone 7!)
iPod 5G 80GB
iPod Mini 4GB (Blue)
     
sek929
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:20 PM
 
I received a warning for my comment in this thread, and it was totally warranted.

Before people cry "Just a warning? I get banned for stuff like that!" you might want to ask yourself just how many waves you've been creating to deserve such a ban.

In my 8+ years as a member here this is my second warning, I don't even have a single infraction.

How can this be?

A: I'm not a self-righteous personality and I know when to take a step back.

Take it from sek, a member since 99, if you are getting banned for your actions in the PL I'd wager dollars to donuts it's not because of a Jewish Mod.
     
subego
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andhee View Post
I don't know what this fuss is about people thinking the mods are being too strict, theyre fine.

The only thing that's stopping me from giving the current crop of mods (and their very light moderation style) 5 stars is that the things people are complaining about (infractions) are private, so there's really no way for me to judge.

That being said, as far as what I can see, 5 stars.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:31 PM
 
Yes, the problem with the 'I don't have a problem with the mods' argument, is that the complaint here is about a double standard. The rules are selectively enforced, depending on the degree of ideological agreement with Vmarks. Of course subego doesn't see this as a problem, he largely agrees with VMarks.
     
brassplayersrock²
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:33 PM
 
Will ya'll just stop whining please. It's disturbing my happy time.
     
sek929
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:34 PM
 
Oh please, I can name a dozen members absolutely opposed to Vmarks' ideals that express them in the PL regularly that haven't been banned.

Maybe some people don't know how to form arguments without acting like complete idiots.
     
subego
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
The rules are selectively enforced, depending on the degree of ideological agreement with Vmarks. Of course subego doesn't see this as a problem, he largely agrees with VMarks.

You caught me.

When it comes to politeness, vmarks and myself are in complete ideological agreement.
     
turtle777
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:47 PM
 
I can't speak about what happened in the PL, I don't visit that often.

However, I always felt it was a conflict of interest if people who actively participate with their personal opinion are moderators of that forum at the same time.

I would prefer mods moderating the PWL that don't really care about politics and religion, or are very laid back and don't take other opinions personal in any way.

-t
     
subego
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Oh please, I can name a dozen members absolutely opposed to Vmarks' ideals that express them in the PL regularly that haven't been banned.

My observation is that if you have a genuine hardcore ideological difference with him, he's more likely to keep out of it.

The level of Palestinian vs. Israeli flamebaitery around here used to be out of control, and that was when vmarks was pretty much the only person running the show.

Just as an aside, the only mod who has ever edited one of my posts is vmarks.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² View Post
Will ya'll just stop whining please. It's disturbing my happy time.
Yeah, just stop giving feedback about the problems, and put up with the fact that the PL is a forum for people who agree with VMarks? Great idea.

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Oh please, I can name a dozen members absolutely opposed to Vmarks' ideals that express them in the PL regularly that haven't been banned.
Can you really? Because I can't. Certainly not 12 who regularly disagree with VMarks and his buddies.
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Maybe some people don't know how to form arguments without acting like complete idiots.
Indeed - the problem is that they are allowed to run riot and abuse others because they are ideologically pure.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
i would prefer mods moderating the pwl that don't really care about politics and religion, or are very laid back and don't take other opinions personal in any way.
qft.
     
seanc
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I would prefer mods moderating the PWL that don't really care about politics and religion, or are very laid back and don't take other opinions personal in any way.

-t
I hate the PWL & don't care about politics.

Should I moderate it?

No. Why?

a) If I didn't care it'd be difficult to give an opinion on whether a problem was actually a problem.

b) I never visit it because I don't read stuff I don't care about.
     
subego
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Sep 3, 2008, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
However, I always felt it was a conflict of interest if people who actively participate with their personal opinion are moderators of that forum at the same time.

This is an obvious concern.

I remember asking about this a long time ago. vmarks response was along the lines of "if I'm participating in the conversation, I generally call in another mod".

Note that this was previous to the infraction system, so user-mod interaction WRT problems was a bit more personal back then.

That being said, I had not seen at the time I asked, nor have I seen since, any visible issues with the way things are (were) set up.
     
subego
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Sep 3, 2008, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Yes, the problem with the 'I don't have a problem with the mods' argument, is that the complaint here is about a double standard.

You know, if you weren't so hot under the collar, you would have realized I wasn't arguing anything. I was praising the moderators for what little visible moderation I see them engaging in. Not everything is about you.

The part where I give the caveat that I don't have access to most of the moderation around here, thus giving you an enormous benefit of the doubt, that's the part that was about you.


You're welcome.
     
turtle777
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Sep 3, 2008, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by seanc View Post
I hate the PWL & don't care about politics.

Should I moderate it?

No. Why?

a) If I didn't care it'd be difficult to give an opinion on whether a problem was actually a problem.
No, the mod should NOT give an opinion, he should only watch over the rules being followed. The rules are pretty straight forward, and can be enforced w/o engaging in the content of the discussions.

And most of the time, the mod should only become active if there are user complaints (reported posts). I don't see the point of a mod digging out things that nobody thought was that bad after all.

-t
     
seanc
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Sep 3, 2008, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
No, the mod should NOT give an opinion, he should only watch over the rules being followed. The rules are pretty straight forward, and can be enforced w/o engaging in the content of the discussions.

And most of the time, the mod should only become active if there are user complaints (reported posts). I don't see the point of a mod digging out things that nobody thought was that bad after all.

-t
I should not give opinions on what?

We do become active when we receive reports, but there's nothing wrong with being proactive is there?
     
Railroader
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Sep 3, 2008, 06:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I received a warning for my comment in this thread, and it was totally warranted.

Before people cry "Just a warning? I get banned for stuff like that!" you might want to ask yourself just how many waves you've been creating to deserve such a ban.

In my 8+ years as a member here this is my second warning, I don't even have a single infraction.

How can this be?

A: I'm not a self-righteous personality and I know when to take a step back.

Take it from sek, a member since 99, if you are getting banned for your actions in the PL I'd wager dollars to donuts it's not because of a Jewish Mod.
Your self-restraint has impressed me many times.
     
Railroader
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Sep 3, 2008, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Yes, the problem with the 'I don't have a problem with the mods' argument, is that the complaint here is about a double standard. The rules are selectively enforced, depending on the degree of ideological agreement with Vmarks. Of course subego doesn't see this as a problem, he largely agrees with VMarks.
Actually, I think he lets those he disagrees with get away with the most. In that way he is not fair, but I do respect him for it.
     
Railroader
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Sep 3, 2008, 06:06 PM
 
Having a mod in the POL lounge who would only be a lurker is a very bad idea. It is not like any other forum on here.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Sep 3, 2008, 06:41 PM
 
I am not Calverson either!!111!1

Before reader50 or Coldwarrior accuse me of being him/her too.
     
Doofy
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Sep 3, 2008, 08:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sickster View Post
Why are right wing extremists given a free hand to abuse others in the PL
There are no right-wing extremists on MacNN. Period.

If you think that there are, your judgement may be a tad off. Which, of course, may be affecting your view of proceedings in the Pol Lounge.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Simon
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Sep 3, 2008, 08:29 PM
 
IMHO it should be shut down. Like then entire lounge. Keep it technical and it stays mainly civil. Let it get political or social and the place goes to hell.

That said, if you think vmarks is biased, then that's even more a reason to stay out of there altogether. If he has nobody to impose his views on, what's he gonna do? If you're certain somebody's an idiot, why try to convince him of anything?
( Last edited by Simon; Sep 3, 2008 at 10:09 PM. Reason: typo)
     
zombie punk
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Sep 3, 2008, 08:57 PM
 
Well Simon, your advice that the only way to deal with this problem is to not use the PL is what will happen in the end, certainly if the aim is to drive away everyone who doesn't agree with VMarks then the forum is doing well, but it seems odd that a public forum with no explicit right wing bias should be run that way. To be clear, I don't think VMarks is an idiot, I think his moderation is very biased. That's a shame, because MacNN is, in most other ways, an excellent resource, and deserves better than this.
     
ghporter
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Sep 3, 2008, 09:35 PM
 
The "problem" with the Political Lounge, as I see it, is that many people seem to think it's a pit for endlessly arguing, using questionable logic, twisting and selectively quoting others' words, and generally behaving childishly. These forums, all of them, are for discussion. I sometimes wonder if I should post the definition of that word now and then, and set things up so that every user must read that definition before even being able to see what's been posted. Sadly, I venture into the PL rarely, mostly because this twisting and misinterpretation often happens to my posts. If I'm not being attacked for being thorough and detailed in my description of the facts, that is.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
zombie punk
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Sep 3, 2008, 09:54 PM
 
Well your impression of the PL is not wrong, but you are not experiencing the situation the way others are. You are not on the wrong end of the systematic discrimination that takes place there.
     
effgee
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Sep 3, 2008, 09:59 PM
 
Imagine turning on the TV to watch a football/soccer/whatever game between "Team A" and "Team B". Then, after a few minutes you notice that every so often the referee pulls a "Team A" flag out of his back pocket, waving it furiously while at the same time explaining to the crowd that there's no need to worry - he'll make sure that all the rules are being followed.

Now there's something you don't see every day.




(N.B.: And I'd still pay cash to see the PL moved up one level in the forum hierarchy so I don't have to see the 'latest post' topic every time I drop by the lounge. Or a 'hide this forum' button. Anything to not have to witness the clusterfsck that's going on in there. Or better yet - delete it. For good.)
     
turtle777
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Sep 3, 2008, 10:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by effgee View Post
Imagine turning on the TV to watch a football/soccer/whatever game between "Team A" and "Team B". Then, after a few minutes you notice that every so often the referee pulls a "Team A" flag out of his back pocket, waving it furiously while at the same time explaining to the crowd that there's no need to worry - he'll make sure that all the rules are being followed.
VERY good analogy

Mods in the PWL should not participate in the discussions.

-t
     
Laminar
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Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Sep 3, 2008, 11:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I received a warning for my comment in this thread, and it was totally warranted.
And totally worth it.

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
I am not Calverson either!!111!1
We know. Unlike you, Calverson was actually fun to have around (until he quit cigarettes and caffeine at the same time...).
     
sek929
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Sep 3, 2008, 11:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
And totally worth it.
That's why I haven't edited it.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 3, 2008, 11:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
That's why I haven't edited it.
I love that you are reveling in breaking the rules of the forum.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Sep 4, 2008, 12:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
We know. Unlike you, Calverson was actually fun to have around (until he quit cigarettes and caffeine at the same time...).

God bless you.

Ahh, who are you?
     
zombie punk
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Sep 4, 2008, 12:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
God bless you.

Ahh, who are you?
Abuse is pretty much par for the course. Luckily, he's of the right wing persuasion, so there are no consequences.
     
Railroader
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Sep 4, 2008, 12:57 AM
 
I wanted to post so I could insult you, but it clearly is not needed.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
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Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
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Sep 4, 2008, 05:21 AM
 
Reported.
     
 
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