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Does Homophobia Stem From Religion?
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marden
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:02 PM
 
Posted: Tuesday, 13 March 2007 7:15AM

Top General Calls Gay Sex "Immoral"

SAN FRANCISCO (KCBS/AP) -- The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, defended the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy on moral grounds. In a newspaper interview on Monday, Marine Gen. Peter Pace likened homosexuality to adultery and said the military should not condone it by allowing gays to serve openly in the armed forces.

Pace was responding to a question from a Chicago Tribune about the policy that allows gays and lesbians to serve if they keep their sexual orientation private and don't engage in homosexual acts. The 1994 law also prohibits commanders from asking about a person's sexual orientation. Pace said he supports the policy.

``I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts,'' Pace was quoted as saying in the newspaper interview. ``I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way.''

Pace, a native of Brooklyn, N.Y., and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said he based his views on his upbringing.

``As an individual, I would not want (acceptance of gay behavior) to be our policy, just like I would not want it to be our policy that if we were to find out that so-and-so was sleeping with somebody else's wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not. We prosecute that kind of immoral behavior,'' he said.

KCBS’ Holly Quan reports the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a national gay advocacy group, has demanded an apology from the Pentagon.

“He should know better than to insult the service of men and women who are already on the front lines. He should know better than to try and influence public policy because of his own religious or personal beliefs. And he should know better than to vocalize those in a public format. So we're very disappointed,” said Steve Ralls, a spokesman for the group that has represented some of the thousands dismissed from the military for their sexual orientation.

There are an estimated 65,000 gay men and lesbians now currently serving in the military, Ralls said.
http://kcbs.com/pages/299562.php?con...ntentId=371278

Is Gen. Pace's attitude a result of religious belief or upbringing only?

Maybe others more experienced with the subject can enlighten me.
     
centerchannel68
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:08 PM
 
Basically..... Christianity makes people totally irrational and confused about pretty much everything.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:17 PM
 
They should be more worried about the "immoral" divorces that 45% of said Christians have.
     
torsoboy
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:35 PM
 
To most Christians it isn't a matter of being afraid ("Homophobia") of the people that are gay, but it is scary to us that something that God specifically warned everyone about in the Bible is now becoming more mainstream and accepted. To you non-Christians (or those that don't believe in the bible entirely... you know, those who pick and choose what to take from the bible... you know who you are)... it would be like the act of murder was becoming mainstream and that people were now accepting it as okay.

Of course I know that murder is way different in a physical sense, but as a sin that is about the equivalent. The fear is that people are becoming more rebellious to the teachings of God and are claiming that their way is the right way, and that God's way is only a superstition that should be ignored (ala centerchannel68).

So to the political lounge we go!
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:37 PM
 
In this case it's a religious thing. That said the religious part stems from our own desire to arrogantly condemn others to exhault ourselves. Unfortunately right now the Church is very much so wrapped up by people with abusive personalities. Those that most vehemently demand a stay against homosexuality are the most abusive and will attack those who want more moderate views.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:40 PM
 
I'm not sure I understand the point of this post. It's difficult if not possible to deny that this man's religion had an influence here. Is your question on whether all such beliefs stem solely from religion, or if they chiefly come from other sources which religion then serves to reinforce?
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marden  (op)
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium View Post
I'm not sure I understand the point of this post. It's difficult if not possible to deny that this man's religion had an influence here. Is your question on whether all such beliefs stem solely from religion,
This was my original question.

Originally Posted by Millennium View Post
or if they chiefly come from other sources which religion then serves to reinforce?
This may be a more probing question.
     
olePigeon
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by torsoboy View Post
To most Christians it isn't a matter of being afraid ("Homophobia") of the people that are gay, but it is scary to us that something that God specifically warned everyone about in the Bible is now becoming more mainstream and accepted ... it would be like the act of murder was becoming mainstream and that people were now accepting it as okay.
Hence, why religion is the problem. Only irrational people would equate homosexuality to murder.

Here's the part I really hate about the Christian God: He genetically engineers a human being to be gay, just so He can throw them into Hell. What kind of messed crap is that? It's like saying people with only 1 arm can go to heaven, then making 10% of the people have only 1arm.
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:45 PM
 
I should say that most peole who fervently believe in their religion, are often less homophobic. It's largely the marginal ones who just go with what they're told. Most well educated people will argue against the homophobic nature prevelant in in the church.
     
kmkkid
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Here's the part I really hate about the Christian God: He genetically engineers a human being to be gay, just so He can throw them into Hell. What kind of messed crap is that? It's like saying people with only 1 arm can go to heaven, then making 10% of the people have only 1arm.

Because we have the "freedom of choice" to deny our earthly sexual urges.


I agree that no loving God would allow for people to be born gay, whether it be disease or genetics, then force them to not act upon it or face eternal damnation.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Hence, why religion is the problem. Only irrational people would equate homosexuality to murder.

Here's the part I really hate about the Christian God: He genetically engineers a human being to be gay, just so He can throw them into Hell. What kind of messed crap is that? It's like saying people with only 1 arm can go to heaven, then making 10% of the people have only 1arm.
Ah... but you've missed they greatest bit about Christianity. If something doesn't fit into the Grand Scheme (e.g. homosexuality) it had nothing to do with God... it was Satan's doing (or some other evil). God doesn't create homosexuals. They become that way through some evil force.
     
torsoboy
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Hence, why religion is the problem. Only irrational people would equate homosexuality to murder.
Not as a crime against humanity you dolt, just as saying that they are both sins. Since we are given a list of things to not do (sins) from God, they both are comparable when speaking in generalities.

You know that is what was meant but just feel like being ignorant, so more power too ya! (ignorance is bliss from what I hear)
     
marden  (op)
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Mar 13, 2007, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Hence, why religion is the problem. Only irrational people would equate homosexuality to murder.

Here's the part I really hate about the Christian God: He genetically engineers a human being to be gay, just so He can throw them into Hell. What kind of messed crap is that?
James 2:10-11

10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Basically, keep the whole law. Don't pick and choose.

However, verse 13 says this:

13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
And if there is any doubt about the matter, we have this to settle the matter.

When questioned what the greatest commandment is, Jesus is portrayed by the Gospels of Mark (12:28–34) and of Matthew (22:34-40) as stating that the first two commandments, and the greatest, are:

One should love Yahweh with one's entire heart, soul, mind, and strength

One should love one's neighbour as one would love oneself
So, instead of blaming the Bible or God, direct your anger at MEN.

If we have learned to say we shouldn't indict Islam for the sins of a few of the misguided believers, why can't we also learn to place the onus on individual Christians who misunderstand?
     
marden  (op)
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Ah... but you've missed they greatest bit about Christianity. If something doesn't fit into the Grand Scheme (e.g. homosexuality) it had nothing to do with God... it was Satan's doing (or some other evil). God doesn't create homosexuals. They become that way through some evil force.
Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Wouldn't that include Gays?
     
marden  (op)
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
Because we have the "freedom of choice" to deny our earthly sexual urges.

I agree that no loving God would allow for people to be born gay, whether it be disease or genetics, then force them to not act upon it or face eternal damnation.
Men have chosen to cherry pick the commandments. If they actually followed Jesus' teachings we would love Gays.
     
marden  (op)
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
I should say that most peole who fervently believe in their religion, are often less homophobic. It's largely the marginal ones who just go with what they're told. Most well educated people will argue against the homophobic nature prevelant in in the church.
I agree. It's not that I am all that well educated in the Bible but I can read what Jesus said were the greatest commandments.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by marden View Post
Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Wouldn't that include Gays?
Jesus also says that one should honor the Old Testament to the letter. And we all know what the Old Testament says about adulterers.... that's a whole lot of putting to death if you ask me.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Jesus also says that one should honor the Old Testament to the letter. And we all know what the Old Testament says about adulterers.... that's a whole lot of putting to death if you ask me.
Which is why the laws of the Torah were not meant for the other nations of the earth.

The act of homosexual sex is one of many acts that may, under a Torah theocracy, be punished by the death penalty. Christian theologians choose to highlight that particular prohibition. Yes, Judeo-Christian tradition fosters a negative attitude toward homosexuals, but that perception is embellished in emphatic and often hypocritical terms by Christians.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
torsoboy
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
I should say that most peole who fervently believe in their religion, are often less homophobic. It's largely the marginal ones who just go with what they're told. Most well educated people will argue against the homophobic nature prevelant in in the church.
Yeah, it's only those dang marginal Popes, Prophets, and other church leaders that don't understand the bible or the word of God. If only they were as "educated" as you and the other smart ones.

Anyway... it is the sin that is disliked, not the people. It is the attitude that the sin is now okay because lots of people are now okay with it. Jesus does love Gay people just as much as he love straight people. He doesn't love the sin of lusting after the same sex any more than he loves the sin of lying or stealing from your neighbors.
( Last edited by torsoboy; Mar 13, 2007 at 01:26 PM. )
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:27 PM
 
Nah, homophobia comes from the "yech" response that happens when we encounter different practices that involve deep-seated motivations like sexual practices. That yech response is just rationalized with religion.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:30 PM
 
There are far too many totally hot chicks for a dude to be gay. Hot lesbians I can understand, but not gay dudes. Thank the Maker for hawt chicks.
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:35 PM
 
You constantly emphasizing your straightness makes me suspicious. My guess is you are actually a covert homosexual.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:35 PM
 
To answer the OP's question; we can't know for certain what the bases for his beliefs are, but he claims it was the result of his upbringing, whatever that means to him. If we take that as what most of us would conclude, that would include religious instruction, as religion is one of the most commonly used instruments in the raising and nurturing of our children (or at least it was more likely when he and I were young children, but that's also debatable, and another show). I saw a blurb on this last night on http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/03/031207pace.htm and, at first, I was a little concerned. After thinking about it, however, one has to remember that he's from a different generation, and his beliefs are predicated on different values, which he has chosen not to change over time. He makes some concession, supporting the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, but, it seems clear to me that, were it his choice, he would exclude gays entirely from the military. Fortunately, his views are passing into the sunset, as many polls of younger people show, correctly IMO, that homosexuality is basically a non-issue, as they don't feel threatened by having gays around them.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Jesus also says that one should honor the Old Testament to the letter. And we all know what the Old Testament says about adulterers.... that's a whole lot of putting to death if you ask me.
Is that what he was doing when he was working on the Sabbath? I though we were under grace now, so our salvation is not because of good works Ephesians 2:8-9; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

If following the law to the letter is what saves us, then we're being saved by works.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:36 PM
 
Me? When do I ever emphasize my straightness? Because I help post pics of hawt chicks when needed?
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Mar 13, 2007, 01:58 PM
 
No, homophobia does not stem from religion. I know of no religious person who is afraid of homosexuals. "Homophobia" stems from the attempt to make such people (and anyone else who isn't "pro-gay") appear to be mentally deficient in some way by implying that it is some sort of mental illness.
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Mar 13, 2007, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
You constantly emphasizing your straightness makes me suspicious. My guess is you are actually a covert homosexual.
Oh yeah. Everyone knows that railhead is gayer than Salty. My gaydar goes straight to pink whenever I read one of his posts.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post
If following the law to the letter is what saves us, then we're being saved by works.
Are you saying Christians are taught to rely only on faith? If so, then why would James 2:26 say, "Faith without works is dead."?

Christian doctrine in that regard is very much confused. But that's a topic for a different thread.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
No, homophobia does not stem from religion. I know of no religious person who is afraid of homosexuals. "Homophobia" stems from the attempt to make such people (and anyone else who isn't "pro-gay") appear to be mentally deficient in some way by implying that it is some sort of mental illness.
Bingo.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Are you saying Christians are taught to rely only on faith? If so, then why would James 2:26 say, "Faith without works is dead."?

Christian doctrine in that regard is very much confused. But that's a topic for a different thread.
In its simplest form, Faith = Salvation + Works

Good works are the outward expression of an inward change. In that same passage, James 2:14 says "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?" If someone is truly saved, that salvation will be evident through how they live, so faith without works is not faith at all.
( Last edited by Gossamer; Mar 13, 2007 at 03:17 PM. )
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
Nah, homophobia comes from the "yech" response that happens when we encounter different practices that involve deep-seated motivations like sexual practices. That yech response is just rationalized with religion.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by centerchannel68 View Post
Basically..... Christianity makes people totally irrational and confused about pretty much everything.
That is pretty much true, but also being hit on constantly by gay people when you're not gay will do it too.
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Mar 13, 2007, 02:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
That is pretty much true, but also being hit on constantly by gay people when you're not gay will do it too.
Clarify, please. Are you saying you personally are constantly being hit on by gay people?
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by KarlG View Post
Clarify, please. Are you saying you personally are constantly being hit on by gay people?
Yes. If women behaved the same way, I'd be Hugh Hefner.
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:20 PM
 
I don't think the underlying motivation is religion. It's a lot more visceral than that. Like it or not, right or wrong ... disapproval of homosexuality is the norm. Worldwide. Throughout the history of humanity. Whether that disapproval is expressed as the relatively tolerant "Live and let live ... just keep it out of my face" attitude, as downright revulsion at the mere thought of it, or as anywhere in between ... regardless, the vast majority of people view homosexuality as unnatural and abnormal. Most religions (not just Christianity) have adopted the same view and have prohibitions against it. Religion speaks against it in terms of morality because that is the language that it uses. But at the same time, most non-religious people feel the same way even though their disapproval is not rooted in religious morality.

I think because religious conservatives are the main ones getting their panties all in a bunch over homosexuality, some people erroneously come to the conclusion that it's a religious thing. But again, it's way deeper than that IMO.

OAW
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:30 PM
 
It also depends on where you went to school. I went to a strict Catholic school where anyone not Catholic was frowned upon (at the very least) Homosexuality was akin to murder.

This kind of brain washing can distort one's thinking. And in my case - being hit on by every Tom, Dick and Harry *literally* - made me at one point quite homophobic. It's a defense mechanism that I'm still learning to overcome.
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
Yes. If women behaved the same way, I'd be Hugh Hefner.

If you hang around with mostly gay people, and if they have any reason to believe you might have gay inclinations, then it's possible that they may be hitting on you. If none of those stipulations are true, then you have a vivid imagination.

As a side note, the general has now wished he'd kept his personal feelings to himself, as he's caused quite a stir.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w.../military-gays
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I don't think the underlying motivation is religion. It's a lot more visceral than that. Like it or not, right or wrong ... disapproval of homosexuality is the norm. Worldwide. Throughout the history of humanity. Whether that disapproval is expressed as the relatively tolerant "Live and let live ... just keep it out of my face" attitude, as downright revulsion at the mere thought of it, or as anywhere in between ... regardless, the vast majority of people view homosexuality as unnatural and abnormal. Most religions (not just Christianity) have adopted the same view and have prohibitions against it. Religion speaks against it in terms of morality because that is the language that it uses. But at the same time, most non-religious people feel the same way even though their disapproval is not rooted in religious morality.

I think because religious conservatives are the main ones getting their panties all in a bunch over homosexuality, some people erroneously come to the conclusion that it's a religious thing. But again, it's way deeper than that IMO.

OAW
I've often thought about social mores and biblical prohibitions. Historical and religious perspective get blurred over tens of thousands of years. Primitive fertility rights, disease transmission, some deep seated genetic transference related to survival of the species all probably play a role.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by KarlG View Post
If you hang around with mostly gay people, and if they have any reason to believe you might have gay inclinations, then it's possible that they may be hitting on you. If none of those stipulations are true, then you have a vivid imagination.

As a side note, the general has now wished he'd kept his personal feelings to himself, as he's caused quite a stir.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w.../military-gays
I am surrounded by gay people where I live, work with many gay people, and have family members that are gay. It's hardly imagination when another man asks you out for dinner, or to pose nude for $$.
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
I agree that no loving God would allow for people to be born gay, whether it be disease or genetics, then force them to not act upon it or face eternal damnation.
Not how it works.

But you've been told that. So that is telling me you just want to continue to make false statements.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Jesus also says that one should honor the Old Testament to the letter.
Really? Scripture?
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
You constantly emphasizing your straightness makes me suspicious. My guess is you are actually a covert homosexual.
Ah the old "You better not belittle or joke about homosexuality or we'll call you one!!"

How futile is that really?
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
No, homophobia does not stem from religion. I know of no religious person who is afraid of homosexuals. "Homophobia" stems from the attempt to make such people (and anyone else who isn't "pro-gay") appear to be mentally deficient in some way by implying that it is some sort of mental illness.
BING! Making those that do such a thing, the very man they hate.

Yet they don't see the irony.
     
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
Yes. If women behaved the same way, I'd be Doofy.
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:58 PM
 
Oh, and on topic: I know plenty of atheies who don't approve of the bum fun. So I'm not so sure it's anything to do with religion at all.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
osiris
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Fixinated.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
subego
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Mar 13, 2007, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I don't think the underlying motivation is religion. It's a lot more visceral than that.

Yes. I would say it is too prevalent to be pinned on religion. I think this is a chicken and egg situation. Distaste for the opposite sexual orientation came first, religion just followed that mold.

I think there is some evidence for this being a biological phenomena. The key is that most males are disgusted by thoughts of oppositely oriented sex. The opposite is the important part. Almost every gay male I know is pretty disgusted at the idea of het sex. Who's going to claim that's because of religion.

It makes more sense to me that when male patterns for sexual orientation get locked in (likely during infancy, as a combo factor of genetics and environment) one of the side effects is an aversion to differently oriented sex. If you think about it, unless some aversion to the other orientation was programmed in, we wouldn't have orientations.

There's nowhere nearly as much biological impact to being a lesbian, which I think accounts for the fact that women move more freely between the orientations, and tend not to have quite the same issues with homosexuality that males do. They don't need as much code to set up an orientation, because, let's face it, from a biological perspective women have very little choice in whom they are inseminated by.

P.S. Welcome back marden!!!
( Last edited by subego; Mar 13, 2007 at 04:18 PM. )
     
OldManMac
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Mar 13, 2007, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
I am surrounded by gay people where I live, work with many gay people, and have family members that are gay. It's hardly imagination when another man asks you out for dinner, or to pose nude for $$.
That's why I asked the question. Your experiences are definitely in the minority.
     
ink
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Mar 13, 2007, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
They should be more worried about the "immoral" divorces that 45% of said Christians have.
Heeey, serial monogamy is MUCH better than gay sex.

Marden: The answer to your question is YES.

[Joker]This religion needs an enema![/Joker]
     
subego
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Mar 13, 2007, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
I am surrounded by gay people where I live, work with many gay people, and have family members that are gay. It's hardly imagination when another man asks you out for dinner, or to pose nude for $$.

Now you know why women hate men.
     
osiris
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Mar 13, 2007, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Now you know why women hate men.
Yet another reason ... good thing we rule the world.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
 
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