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So, any concerns right-wingers? (Apparently none at all.) Also, is Japan a jerk? (Page 16)
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subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 09:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Japan and China got into it a century or so ago I thought? I'm sure there was a war on in the first Ip Man movie....
China wasn't the aggressor.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 9, 2017 at 09:23 AM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 9, 2017, 09:19 AM
 
Disregard.
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subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Disregard.
Sorry... should have quoted.
     
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Jun 9, 2017, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
We need to square-up our history books here.

By 1300, all of modern China had been conquered by the Mongols. They were the neighbor-conquering, imperialist bad-asses.

Once the Chinese got their act together, they pushed the Mongols back. The Mongols ran out of steam, and China stopped pushing.
I don't quite get what the Mongols have to do with your original question. Yes, stating with Genghis Khan the Mongols invaded China and were amazed by the thing called cities. The Chinese also got their rear end handed to them in the 19th century by the British and the French in the Opium Wars. (That was a pivotal events also for the Japanese who learnt exactly the right lesson: resisting Western efforts by military might will end badly.) And China was defeated by the Japanese army in places like Manchuria and parts of modern-day Mongolia. But your question was whether China had committed any atrocities over the course of its history, not whether China has been attacked by outside forces.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
With the exception of Xinjiang, modern China is a smaller Yuan dynasty China.
And the British Empire is also smaller than it used to be. That doesn't change the basic fact that China is a hugely multiethnic state, a present-day Roman Empire, and that some peoples who are living in China do not do so by choice.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Don't get me wrong. The Chinese are dicks. The point is they're the kind of dicks who stay inside their borders for seven centuries and counting. Don't **** with them, and they leave you alone.
I'm not sure how this argument ties in with what I said — unless you want to say that China's struggles are not aimed towards its neighbors but internal struggles. Ok, but in this context, that's just semantics.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Which is why Japan making a scene is ridiculous. China's just not that into you.
I don't get what you want to say here.
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subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I'm not sure how this argument ties in with what I said — unless you want to say that China's struggles are not aimed towards its neighbors but internal struggles. Ok, but in this context, that's just semantics.
This is the entire point of the discussion. Japan is China's neighbor. The question being debated is how much does Japan have to fear from its neighbor.

The answer is "not much", unless Japan decides to invade them... again.

The neighbors China took over in the long, long past were all imperialist combat monsters. Not the other way around.
     
subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 08:53 PM
 
Yay, title change!
     
subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 11:35 PM
 
FLASHBACK FRIDAY!

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
FBI refused White House request to knock down recent Trump-Russia stories - CNNPolitics.com

This seems to be a big deal in the media right now but i don't quite get it. Apparently they White House shouldn't be communicating with the FBI?
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I got the following impression, no idea if it's correct.

WH: Please knock down these stories
FBI: Sorry... not allowed to lie.
Bzzzzzzzt!
     
subego
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Jun 11, 2017, 10:16 PM
 
A few more things to ponder about China.

Why does China put up with North Korea?
Why does China put up with Taiwan?
Does building the largest defensive structure known to man betray anything about the Chinese mindset?
     
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Jun 12, 2017, 03:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Why does China put up with North Korea?
North Korea serves as a buffer to the Western alliance, and North Korea helped out Mao and his forces during a crucial time of the revolution.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Why does China put up with Taiwan?
To the Chinese Taiwan is not a sovereign nation but a rogue province. When I was in Japan the first time, friendships broke over this, because among the Chinese-speaking exchange students quite a few came from Taiwan. They discussed this topic once and vowed to never speak off it again.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Does building the largest defensive structure known to man betray anything about the Chinese mindset?
They wanted to keep their multiethnic empire protected from the barbarians on horseback.
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subego
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Jun 12, 2017, 11:09 AM
 
So, two examples of China investing massive resources to maintain a defensive posture, and a rogue province they're so mad about it wrecks friendships but they're too chickenshit to even threaten.

Japan thinks they need to protect themselves from getting nuked by China why again?
     
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Jun 13, 2017, 06:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, two examples of China investing massive resources to maintain a defensive posture, and a rogue province they're so mad about it wrecks friendships but they're too chickenshit to even threaten.
China is so serious about that Taiwan is not officially recognized as a proper state by most other countries in the world.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Japan thinks they need to protect themselves from getting nuked by China why again?
Japan needs nukes for the same (non-)reason that China needs a buffer state.
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subego
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Jun 13, 2017, 08:34 AM
 
A history of being invaded by foreign powers?


Taiwan doesn't care about being recognized, they care about the checks clearing on their exported goods.

IOW, they care about what matters.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 14, 2017, 11:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
FLASHBACK FRIDAY!





Bzzzzzzzt!
February, where I didn't know the DOJ is supposed to be a firewall between the Pres and FBI. My head hurts.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 14, 2017, 11:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In other words, I have behaved in such a manner further discussion necessitates an accusation of arguing in bad faith. If this is fair then I shall lie in the bed I have made.

I don't think it's fair and will leave it at that.
Quoting this response because it uncrosses the wires:
"Ok, maybe this is a distinction that I need to make. I don't think all republicans or conservatives are acting in bad faith. I think that a large percentage of those in power are.

i.e., I don't think Wayne LaPierre is concerned about citizen safety as much as gun sales.

I don't think Jim Inhofe believes a snowball means global warming isn't real."

Originally Posted by subego View Post
For instance, directly measuring the number of guns in the country would necessitate a database of gun owners. The utility of guns as a check against the government would be severely threatened by the existence of such a database. Even if that wasn't an issue, how does one justify the expenditure of resources (it would be Census scale) when the number can be extrapolated from data the ATF collects?
We can track software and console sales anonymously. I don't see why we can't do the same for gun sales.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
What I do know of global warming involves behavior on the behalf of Republicans which certainly appears absurd to me. I'm sure a good deal of it is, just like there is with guns, however I trust my instincts at least some of it is more complicated than it appears on the surface. Just like with guns. If there's a specific ban in question, point me towards it and I'll endeavor to provide my best analysis.
The only real complication is trying to strike a balance between money and environment. Unfortunately, the GOP stance on losing out on profit is so dogmatic that effective regulation is repugnant. This is likely fostered by their benefactors mindset that has prioritized short-term profits over long-term profitability, and share-holder value over, well, everything else.
     
subego
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Jun 15, 2017, 05:45 AM
 
This happened like, a month ago, so I was over it, but there isn't a wire to uncross.

You accused me personally of dodging the question, and I took offense because that's bullshit.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 15, 2017, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This happened like, a month ago, so I was over it, but there isn't a wire to uncross.

You accused me personally of dodging the question, and I took offense because that's bullshit.
Well you weren't answering it, you were just giving that you judged their actions as good faith. Had you said, "I don't know" I probably would have at least had something to work with. You outright ignored it in two replies.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 15, 2017, 11:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, you object to the reason given?
Originally Posted by subego View Post
For those playing at home, the experiment calls for comparison of children who requested vouchers and got them, versus children who didn't.

Which is fine up until the second year where the second group of children put their names back into the hat to get vouchers and are refused on the basis of it ****ing up the experiment.

This strikes me as a pretty clear-cut example of questionable experimental ethics.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is a government education subsidy for underprivileged children.

We're talking about disqualifying someone for life because they were randomly chosen as a control.

I know you're not stone cold like this, so where are the wires crossed?
They could just, you know, ban the disqualifying instead. And I'm not a scientist, so I don't know if this works, but they could have twice as many controls to account for loss over the years. I also think they could do something like, subsidize control students after the experiment is over.

I'll give you this, the person who put this ban perhaps used a blunt method to solve the problem because they didn't consult with the people running the experiment or couldn't think of anything better. I'm just too cynical to think this is a 'think of the children!' moment when I know likely millions of dollars to private organizations are on the line.
     
subego
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Jun 16, 2017, 09:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Well you weren't answering it, you were just giving that you judged their actions as good faith. Had you said, "I don't know" I probably would have at least had something to work with. You outright ignored it in two replies.
So far in this thread I've argued.

There's a legit argument for the CDC ban on gun research.
There's a legit argument for the ban on directly counting firearms.
There's a legit argument for the ban on double-blind experiments.

Does this mean Republican gun and education policy is always legit? Absolutely not. It shows these three examples are legit.

My response to the global warming question was to state I'm uninformed, however it is likely we could find similar examples of the above phenomena.

It was not claiming all Republican arguments on global warming are legit, any more than the above argues all Republican gun and education policy is legit.

It was not dodging the question.

Do I think the snowball is bullshit? Yes, but I was being asked something else.


The irony is, I'm good enough at spinning arguments I can almost make the snowball legit, but he was so unapologetically literal about it I'm pinned down.
     
subego
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Jun 16, 2017, 10:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
We can track software and console sales anonymously. I don't see why we can't do the same for gun sales.
We do, and it allows us to make a decent approximation.

That's not a direct accounting, of either consoles or guns.
     
subego
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Jun 16, 2017, 11:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm just too cynical to think this is a 'think of the children!' moment when I know likely millions of dollars to private organizations are on the line.
This is irrelevant. Unethical experiment is unethical.

While a clever idea, I don't think the D.C. program is large enough to get a bigger control. Taking stats from 2012, because they were the ones I found first, with zero attrition the control would be 206 students.

My experimental design is a little rusty, but even as is, that strikes me as tiny.
     
subego
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Jun 17, 2017, 11:15 PM
 
What does this have to do with Japan?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 23, 2017, 11:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The opposing team acts in better faith than they appear to.

Note this is distinct from being right.
To throw another piece of example against this, see the GOP trashing the CBO on their ACA replacement bills. No, I don't think they're acting in good faith.
     
subego
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Jul 24, 2017, 12:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
To throw another piece of example against this, see the GOP trashing the CBO on their ACA replacement bills. No, I don't think they're acting in good faith.
I can only make a general statement here because I'm too behind the curve to practically dig in to this specific example.

The difference between "better faith than they appear" and "good faith" is more than semantic.


The overarching point I'm trying to make here is humans are notably bad at figuring out why other humans do things, especially when it comes to more baffling behavior.

Here is the usual thought process.

1) Person X engages in behavior Y
2) The only way I would engage in behavior Y is if I was a prick
3) Therefore, person X is a prick

90% of the time this is what people think, and about 90% of that time they're wrong. It's almost always a whole hell of a lot more complicated than that.
     
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Jul 24, 2017, 01:20 AM
 
To be clear, that doesn't mean person X isn't a prick, but if they are, it's probably not for the imagined reasons, and they're potentially a tinier one than they appear as well.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 25, 2017, 09:54 AM
 
So, how do the right wingers feel about Trump trying to get rid of Sessions?
     
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Jul 25, 2017, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So, how do the right wingers feel about Trump trying to get rid of Sessions?
Honestly, I hear more hostility directed at an inactive Congress than at the White House, for anything.

I haven't heard a single soul bring up Sessions, and I've sat in with two lengthy, recent conversations with groups consisting exclusively of conservatives. I think most of the right is still buzzing from winning the election and reveling in CNN burning itself to the ground.
     
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Jul 26, 2017, 12:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Honestly, I hear more hostility directed at an inactive Congress than at the White House, for anything.

I haven't heard a single soul bring up Sessions, and I've sat in with two lengthy, recent conversations with groups consisting exclusively of conservatives. I think most of the right is still buzzing from winning the election and reveling in CNN burning itself to the ground.
Why do you think that is? What is the reason that this doesn't seem to become a big deal? After all, it's Republican against Republican.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Jul 26, 2017 at 08:09 AM. )
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Jul 26, 2017, 05:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Honestly, I hear more hostility directed at an inactive Congress than at the White House, for anything.

I haven't heard a single soul bring up Sessions, and I've sat in with two lengthy, recent conversations with groups consisting exclusively of conservatives. I think most of the right is still buzzing from winning the election and reveling in CNN burning itself to the ground.
This question may seem like a trap, but I swear it's not.

Is anything bad about Trump registering in your conservative circles? Or is he just Jesus the way Obama was to the left?

The thing is, I generally have sympathy with where conservatives come from, so I usually get the defense of him. I even contribute at times.

But then, he does something like that Boy Scout speech, which to me is evidence we're dealing with, like, kind of an awful person. Does this faze anyone?

Does this faze you?

Again, if it doesn't, I just want to know why, and I promise I'll take the answer at face value.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 26, 2017, 10:27 AM
 
The way I read it is the victory is more important than what follows. Makes sense with where we are in politics.

Also CNN burning itself to the ground? How? It had zero credibility long before this election only now it has zero credibility and better ratings.
     
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Jul 26, 2017, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post

Also CNN burning itself to the ground? How? It had zero credibility long before this election only now it has zero credibility and better ratings.
CNN did that when management made the "even if we see evil, we report no evil" deal with Sadahm to keep the Baghdad office.
     
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Jul 26, 2017, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The way I read it is the victory is more important than what follows. Makes sense with where we are in politics.

Also CNN burning itself to the ground? How? It had zero credibility long before this election only now it has zero credibility and better ratings.
What? CNN's ratings are worse than they've ever been.
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Jul 26, 2017, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
What? CNN's ratings are worse than they've ever been.
CNN is getting beat by reruns of Scooby Doo.
     
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Jul 26, 2017, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
CNN is getting beat by reruns of Scooby Doo.
and Leave it to Beaver.
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Jul 28, 2017, 07:12 PM
 


Strikes me as unethical, if not illegal, as well as unwise.
     
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Jul 28, 2017, 07:59 PM
 
That's because you're a rational human being. Any trumpers want to defend this baloney?
     
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Jul 29, 2017, 01:22 AM
 
I have a problem with it as a cold, soulless bastard.

If this becomes okay, then Democrats will do it.
     
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Jul 29, 2017, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I have a problem with it as a cold, soulless bastard.

If this becomes okay, then Democrats will do it.
Been done

http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgu_etd/74/
Abstract
In an interview aired over the Public Broadcasting System in 1980 , aircraft manufacturer John K. Northrop made a stunning charge. Referring to the Air Force's 1949 cancellation of his Flying Wing aircraft, Mr. Northrop alleged that the cancellation was not the result of any valid concerns about the aircraft itself, but rather was a retaliation for his refusal to agree to an improper demand by the Air Force . Specifically, Mr. Northrop charged that then-Secretary of the Air Force Stuart Symington ordered him to merge his firm with Consolidated-Vultee Aircraft Corporation, and that when he refused, an 88 million dollar contract for the Flying Wings was cancelled. Mr. Northrop also admitted that in 1949 testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, he had perjured himself by denying that Mr . Symington had ever threatened or retaliated against Northrop Aircraft, Incorporated .
There was also several time the threat to withhold federal highway funds from states that did not pass desired legislation.
     
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Jul 29, 2017, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
That's because you're a rational human being. Any trumpers want to defend this baloney?
What the .... do you think earmarks are all about?
     
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Aug 8, 2017, 11:22 PM
 
North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen... he has been very threatening beyond a normal state. They will be met with fire, fury and frankly power the likes of which this world has never seen before
So, who's down with Trump creating a red line to NK over threats and implying atomic retribution?
     
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Aug 8, 2017, 11:31 PM
 
That could go either way. Need more intel.

Did the generals tell him to do that or was it his own idea?
     
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Aug 8, 2017, 11:35 PM
 
Countdown to WWIII has begun.

It was nice knowing all of you.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 8, 2017, 11:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Did the generals tell him to do that or was it his own idea?
Puh-lease.


Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Countdown to WWIII has begun.

It was nice knowing all of you.
I don't think he'd do it. I actually think there's a case to be made that if he tried to nuke somebody the admin could invoke the 25th.
     
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Aug 9, 2017, 02:11 AM
 
Nukes? No. Massive FAEs (that make MOAB look tiny)? Probably.
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Aug 9, 2017, 04:20 PM
 
So Chongo, BadKosh:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/09/u...T.nav=top-news

Does it concern you that the president might have ad-libbed a threat to a foreign nation as opposed to having prepared a careful and thoughtful statement about something this important and perilous?
     
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Aug 9, 2017, 04:38 PM
 
Unlike the carefully and thoughtfully scripted red line drawn by Obama that was crossed, then crossed again? (Syria)
     
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Aug 9, 2017, 04:51 PM
 
Of course! I should have included a qualifier in my post that said "and please do not bring up Obama or Hillary".

We're talking about Trump. Focus, Chongo. Something can be wrong regardless of something else.
     
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Aug 9, 2017, 04:54 PM
 
Since this is Obama's (and Clinton's and Dubya's) leftover mess, from passing the buck on the PRK for 8 years, he doesn't get away scot-free.
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Aug 9, 2017, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Unlike the carefully and thoughtfully scripted red line drawn by Obama that was crossed, then crossed again? (Syria)
Odd, you didn't answer the question.
     
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Aug 9, 2017, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This question may seem like a trap, but I swear it's not.

Is anything bad about Trump registering in your conservative circles? Or is he just Jesus the way Obama was to the left?
Absolutely!

Check out Ben Shapiro's podcast currently #2 on iTunes, so it is widely adopted by Republicans/conservatives. - I'm definitely a fan and he definitely rips on Trump & Republicans every day, especially around the tweets. He even has a segment called "Good Trump Bad Trump".
     
subego
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Aug 9, 2017, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Absolutely!

Check out Ben Shapiro's podcast currently #2 on iTunes, so it is widely adopted by Republicans/conservatives. - I'm definitely a fan and he definitely rips on Trump & Republicans every day, especially around the tweets. He even has a segment called "Good Trump Bad Trump".
I'm thinking more in terms of "normal people".

Do you know anyone who likes the guy?
     
 
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