Any one that jumps on every new update is an idiot and will not last long in the real world,
Who gets fired for screwing up a companies computers , not Apple

Auto Update is advertised prominently as a FEATURE of MacOS 9 on Apple's web site:
<http://www.apple.com/macos/feature5.html>

The page starts off with: "Keep your Mac on the cutting edge -- automatically", and ends with "You can even set Mac OS 9 to check Apple's server periodically and automatically download and install updated software for you."

Apple has been promoting this feature as a reason for upgrading to OS9 -- people can hardly be blamed for using it!

I have been running my Rev. A iMac with 9.0.4 fc for about a month now without any problems at all. I installed 9.0.4 release today and my computer has been running smoothly (and I overuse it =). The OS 9 is perfectlt fine, its a minor update and has no bugs at least from this side.

[madgreek]

Bill Gates is laughing his billionaire *ss off right now at....

[wlonh]

oh dear, i am oh so terribly flawed in my reasoning oh dear what SHALL i do

ha!

A DIRECT QUOTE from slboett: "how in the world can anyone discuss products that don't exist yet?...I strongly suggest waiting until they are released and THEN SEE WHAT THE REVIEWS SAY. They are both totally new to the Mac so I would guess THERE WILL BE GROWING PAINS. That's my suggestion." (EMPHASIS in capitals ADDED)
http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Forum2/HTML/000260.html

ANOTHER DIRECT QUOTE from slboett which lays blame for troubles squarely at the feet of the user: "...but my experiences show that 90+% of the time, IT"S THE USER (don't be upset weeder2000, it's just the way it is)"
(EMPHASIS in capitals ADDED)
http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Foru.../001645-2.html

apparently talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time! convenient! until someone notices... jeez... his vendetta against me has obviously clouded his thought processes.

[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 03-26-2000).]

I too installed the 9.0.4 Beta running on a Revision B G4 (350 MHz, DVD, AGP).

The system runs solid, except the DVD player crashes when I press play on ANY DVD. I did try reinstalling the player, but it did no good.

However, after reading this, I was smart enough to back up my System folder before updating.

As an experiment, I kept all 9.0.4 components, but replaced the DVD extension with the 9.0 version. The player works fine (although the audio sync is STILL a problem).

I was hoping for an actual update to the DVD Player app with this update... *sigh*

------------------

I'm not sure who make a mistake here.

Apple didn't OFFICIALLY release the update, they never mentioned it on the web site, and never told anyone about it, only the Mac news sites and rumors sites.

Nobody know why Apple put it over their software update, but it never on the site. Also not sure there's any warnings and do and don't reminders through read me files.

We know that the new PowerBook G3 has 9.0.2, and PwerMac G4 has 9.0.3, right? That might mean 9.0.4 is not for every Mac or some configurations are not recommended or need the update!

And who knows Apple might not upload the complete version because they NEVER announce the update and never encourage you to do any updates to your system.

So just be careful. Especially something no being announced officially.

My take of the official release is not through the software update panel (if it's official, they have announced it officially through their site, and now we all are able to obtain one, not just one or few people).

[slboett]

That was a great comback.

Scott


[This message has been edited by slboett (edited 03-25-2000).]

[Gregory]

Reminds me of classes in logic, philosophy and reasoning. With different cultures.

If this scenerio was being played out with Windows98 Service Pack we'd be having a big laugh.

Frank: what if the coffee pot calls the kettle black? or dials up the grocery store and reorders - only it's a pallet instead of a pound... or someone hacks the coffee maker's IP Address... tells YOU that "you're making more than six cups, Dave, shouldn't you be cutting back? Your heart Dave. Dave?

Software vendors want to remotely disable software if you violate license or abuse (??? whose definition?) software. Behind your back. Via the "Update control panel."

Apple sees you have an illegal beta of their software and... zaps your firware!

I have every update on zip, three backups, and my first priority is IE 5 on Monday. I have a feeling they kicked the tires thoroughly. Apple, if your update leads to screw-ups, even more bugs and discussions, and then turn and delete postings on your support boards... admit your errors and get out of d'nile and go do your 12 steps.

Free software (ie, MSIE) is "allowed" to have bugs. Like Mac OS 6.0.0, 6.0.1. 6.0.2, .3, and .4 - finally corrected in 6.05. May be the last (only???) solid OS I remember using. then they tried to improve and add new features we "wanted" and "needed." Like support for 128MB, partitions > 2GB, HFS+ and none of those was "right" first time out! None.

Think I'll go unplug the coffee - find out who the fridge has been emailing, see if the TV downloaded any movies, see if the solar panels have sold any electricity back to the grid... then get off the grid and retire in a log cabin w/o net access!!

Originally posted by elpibe:
I just wanted to let Gregory and KidF know that I agree with their post.

A second note, why are people calling fellow mac users stupid. First, be a little mature, there are a lot of new users/non-techies that use macs. And, you can fault them for using the OS9 as intended by Apple. Second, if you feel like venting at people by calling them stupid, look for a Wintel/PC forum and lash at them.

Right on man. This fourum is here sothat you can help eachother out. I don't care if Apple is dumb, if the users are dumb or if the OS is dumb. People got burned by this and they came here for help. Instead they got lashed et. Grow up people.

[This message has been edited by Noah Desch (edited 03-25-2000).]

[adept1]

Get real guys! Most of us are here because we are "Mac Geeks" - defintely not typical computer users. I would classify most of us as enthusiasts. We know about waiting for updates, having backups, etc.

But when someone like my Mom opens her OFFICIAL APPLE S/W update control panel after logging onto AOL and sees there's an update, who is she to question it? Apple computers are allegedly FRIENDLY AND EASY TO USE. It shouldn't be the users' responsibity to go on various Mac rumor sites everytime there's an update. Apple ****ed up. Accept it. If the software wasn't final, they should no have released it - and if it's in the S/W Update control panel, that's a release as far as I'm concerned.

[This message has been edited by adept1 (edited 03-25-2000).]

The DiskWarrior extension seems to no longer work after the 9.0.4 update. Just a warning to anyone interested.

Apple obviously has run into problems since the beginning of last fall with the original release of the G4's, and they continue to go downhill. It's one bad PR after another with them. I have had more hardware problems with my G4 than I've had in eight years of using Macs. Pretty much the entire machine has been replaced a piece at a time since Apple wouldn't simply send out a new one. This will definitley be my last Mac. I thought I would never say that since I've always loved Macs and always supported them, but there's other options available. True, some options are even worse. But Apple's public/customer relations is unacceptable. If AppleWorks 6 is to be any indication of what's to come, then Apple is in serious trouble.

Steve

[slboett]

The DiskWarrior Extension is not working well with 9.0.2 either. It's really a 1.0 feature, so I'll wait until it's udpated.
DW runs/works fine without it.

Scott

Regarding the gentleman with problems.

Did you try rebooting while holding down command-option P and R?

This would clear the PRAM, then I suggest booting from a bootable CD.

Perhaps your MAC OS Rom file is out of date?

This should have been updated prior to installing OS 9, but hey it's worth checking.

The OS 9 CD has a "ROM" updater for rev A imac in the Apple Extras folder. Also, it will tell you if the "rom" is current.

Good luck,
Marty

PS I recommend all my customers stick with 8.6 for now.

One more thing, for the person who running into problem if you still on board, you might consider unplug everything included power and all the perpherials connected to you computer, and then wait a few sec and reconnect everything, reboot from you system CD. This should bring you back to normal, and try boot up from your own system, you should be fine.

Cheers :-)

Originally posted by Steve Hicks:
If AppleWorks 6 is to be any indication of what's to come, then Apple is in serious trouble.

Steve

WHat's wrong with Appleworks 6!? I love that program and my G4 is working just fine, thank -you-very-much!

That's why I wait until you folks finish beating each other up and wasting time blaming each other, and when System 9.0.4 or whatever works great, then I get it. Thanks to those who are the guinea pigs. In the end it's your choice, pure and simple!

[wlonh]

please refer to this post: http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Forum2/HTML/000605.html

and there is a report on issues with AW6 here: http://www.macnn.com/contributions/a...comments.shtml

and "according toThe Houston Chronicle: AppleWorks so outshines the low-cost Microsoft Works that some might base their Windows vs. Macintosh decision on the fact that with the Mac they get AppleWorks, either preloaded on iMacs or for $79 on other machines." http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/tech/500172



[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 03-26-2000).]

[Gregory]

Noah,

Off topic, but AppleWorks 6 takes 90 seconds on BW/G3 before anything shows in the "Recent Items" which are only aliases in a folder by same name in AppleWorks folder.

Calling a folder "AppleWorks 6" and the application "AppleWorks" seems poor designed.

Folder with 450 files opens super fast in SimpleText, and can take 10-15 seconds before it stops scanning.

It lacks some and adds little to nothing over 5.04.

Locks up if you inadvertantly use wrong translater/filter on pure text html file - no cancel just an error diaglogue and "OKAY" button. Dumb. Unacceptable.

Ended up reformatting because a) system became unstable after that, b) booting up from ADB k/b connected through ASD 15 LCD now doesn't work. Have to use USB k/b or the power button on front of B&W minitower.

Critical messages on Apple's Discussion forum were deleted, but answers, replies or even responses from Apple were not forth-coming.

Installs a new CarbonLib 1.02 which is now linked to conflicts.
=======================

There are G4 Yikes! Sawtooth and AGP models. RAM issues (Taiwan related?) with some machines.

Disk Warrior: it was Alsoft that pointed out trouble with DFA not recognizing problem, and that OS 8.6 was "allowing" writes to the catalogue directory by IE and/or NC (html code in the directory) - I saw it more than once though it was/is "very rare."

If DW extension isn't working properly - what is Apple doing with HFS+ catalogue, directory, extents, btree etc or is it "just" the OS calls and writes to the directory??

It looks like there is about 34MB to the 9.04 update based on a list of files included. Not included were (may be wrong) QuickTime 4.1?

If I have MRJ 2.2 and all the other posted updates applicable, seems OT 2.6.1, ATI, and probably needed (it ain't broken though).

I also think because DFA that comes with 9.0 is improved and fixes problems on 8.1 forward, that Apple should do what it use to: post it and make it available for anyone to use. My main reason for 9.0 was/is known bugs in 8.6.

Apple hasn't always told what fixes there are, bugs squashed. Afraid of being sued? And I recall 6.05 fixed a lot of problems in 6.03 (6.04 didn't last very long one indication) yet Apple's statement was "only for new machines - SE/30? IIcx? there were only a couple models.

Again, we see Apple back to having to release OS updates for "new hardware." They tried and failed to get a solid OS that just an "enabler' would patch for that machine ID.

And they don't make public more than "added more native PowerPC code," fixed a bug in VM and Memory, very general. I did see more thorough listing with 7.6.1 though.

Or that 7.5.2/3 broke FWB HDT 1.7.x? Or that HDT 1.8 had a bug and was pulled after two weeks - my sister and the guy that installed it on her PowerBook never knew or never told her that version was trouble. She suffered through 9 months of system crashes and instability from that "friend's" negligance - and FWB not sending out notices or email - you had to be online to know.

We expect this automatic update from a control panel to be intelligent - and it tells you what updates are available - only its wrong sometimes and lists a version older than what is installed - meaning that it doesn't do a "equal to or greater than" test. On version or date installed or created.

There is no "undo." And even when it said there was an item to update, failed to download and install the update.

There is no dialogue as there should be saying "make sure you have made a backup of your system folder and/or your hard disk before installing this software." NO WARNING?

We seem to be saying a) none is needed, we can trust software to patch software? b) that all software is so bad that no one would trust to begin with?

And, why doesn't it launch DFA and do a verify first? It could, couldn't it? It takes it long enough and there is very little activity - I can see actual count of bytes out/in using FCR's Turbo PPP - and the pref for "updateable items" used by Software Update cp is 4k.

Greg

OK, this is it, plain and simple! This should be the last post necessary about whose fault it is...

There are 3 classes of users we are dealing with here:
1. Newbies, grandmas, non-techies/enthusiasts (no stereotyping intended) who happened across the SW update control panel, didn't know any better, and got burned by the update.
*Completely Apple's Fault

2. Addicts who do frequent news sites, but were the first of the group to happen across the update before sites started posted "though we haven't been able to duplicate it, some users have noted dl'ing 9.0.4"
*Apple is to blame, though the user still should have taken the necessary precautions when updating a system.

3. ALL THE REST OF YOU! Who do read news sites, and read that "though we haven't been able to, some reporting being able to dl 9.0.4". Then you proceeding to try day and night over and over again to dl the OBVIOUSLY yet unreleased update just so you could get the elusive update that not everyone can get yet...
*ENTIRELY THE USERS FAULT

That should sum it up, and no more discussion should be necessary...

Thanks for your time

[This message has been edited by Zyri (edited 03-26-2000).]

[wlonh]

agreed and thank you

[Waldo]

Let me ask a question. If you make a product(9.0.4) and you need to test it in EVERY single way possible, how do you do it. To test the download of 9.0.4 in Software Update control panel, Apple has to put it there. Anyone that downloaded it, caught Apple at testing the new download. It's plain to see that. Don't harp at Apple for trying to make your experience pleasurable and problemless as possible. I haven't even looked in the SW Update yet. I'm waiting for Apple to say it's ready. That would be in the news section at Apple's site. It's not that hard to do.
Willie

Haha.... this is really quite funny.
Everyone blaming the Auto Update prog.
This simply is Apple's fault here. Apple should know not to do what it did and should know that not all Mac users are wise enough to know that Apple makes mistakes too. Any and all of you saying this is the users fault are wrong. If you don't know it then your morons. The OS was and is GM. Meaning it was done. It doesnt matter what kind of user you are. If its done, its done. If it doesnt work it doesnt workand its not the fault of the user if the user. That simple. At least it should be. Seems many want to argue how the GM one day will be diff from the GM on monday. How lame.

This is foolishness. OS 9 or .o4 is simply not the best OS for the massess. Oh blessed we be when X appaears and is more flexable than this crap.


------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.

Originally posted by Noah Desch:
WHat's wrong with Appleworks 6!? I love that program and my G4 is working just fine, thank -you-very-much!

Nothing's wrong with it, as long as ya don't mind the longer application launch, limited translation capabilities (compared to previous versions), no longer any GIF export, or the occasional crash. And of course the ugly interface, however that's only personal preference. I'm glad you're enjoying the program.

My G4 work's just fine also, after a new battery, power supply, and logic board. Not to mention the downtime while the machine was in for service.

You're welcome, very much.

[kuzelnik]

Well . . . I never thought my original posting was going to provoke so many responses . . . I'm glad it did . . . .

The issue was never whether or not Apple's update which was available for a short period of time is an "official release" or not. The issue was that the update created a problem with my DVD. Needless to say, when Apple makes it available they are taking a certain responsibility for it. If they didn't want people to have it, then I couldn't have downloaded it through their own control panel, right? Case closed. Screw your bitching about me being an idiot. I know the Mac OS better than 99% of the dickheads who missed the point of the original post.

To solve my problem I decided to go straight to Apple. After spending time with a guy who didn't seem to know much about the issue (he was new there), he passed me to another guy who was a specialist specifically for iMacs, iBooks and OS 9. We had a long discussion about the problem and he had never heard of it before. He said he would discuss it with the engineers and get back to me through email. A few days later he sent me this:

-----------------
Your issue will be resolved by updating to Apple DVD Software 2.2. Unfortunately, it hasn't been released, yet.

Engineering wrote me back and let me know that Mac OS 9.0.4 hasn't officially been released. They had made it available temporarily to test
the Software Update site. It seems that you downloaded it while the software site was being tested. You do have the final version of Mac OS 9.0.4, but the it is not totally compatible with Apple DVD Software 2.1 and
earlier. When Mac OS 9.0.4 is officially released, Apple DVD Software 2.2 will also be released for use with Mac OS 9.0.4. I am not sure of the official release date, so for now, please keep checking the Software Updates
control panel and http://asu.info.apple.com for the update including Apple DVD Software 2.2. Thank you for drawing our attention to this!! This particular issue was an oversight on our part and your suggestions will be implemented in 2.2!

-------------------

So you see? He didn't complain about downloading it before its "release date" (I got the final version of the updater) but he ***THANKED*** me for assisting Apple. He even suggested to continue trying to update using the update control panel.

So think of me when you are using your Apple DVD player version 2.2---It's a better product because of ME!

[Waldo]

Amen kuzelnik.

I praise you for thinking straight and not jumping to conclusions. I for one, Apple, and any other REAL macaddict can understand what really happened here. And how EASILY it was solved. Doesn't seem like such a big deal anymore does it. Shouldn't anyways.

Long Live The Mac,
Willie

[This message has been edited by Waldo (edited 03-30-2000).]