[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by meelk

while the PS2 did help DVD adoption rates, dvd playback on the PS2 is complete ass, I'm sure the exact same thing will be the case for the PS3.

Actually playback was fine for all but the picky or hi-def crowd. Heck they even made it progressive scan later on.

[Eug Wanker]

Hmmm... Some guy is claiming that his local Walmart has a Microsoft HD DVD display up saying that the HD DVD add-on drive for the Xbox 360 is due in the fall.

I guess we'll find out if that's true next week. What I'm really interested in is the price, and whether or not it will ship with an HDMI-HDCP dongle (to replace the component dongle on the Xbox 360).

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I guess we'll find out if that's true next week. What I'm really interested in is the price, and whether or not it will ship with an HDMI-HDCP dongle (to replace the component dongle on the Xbox 360).

Remember keep in mind like I have mentioned in the past the actual board is analog (from what I have read) so using an HDMI plug will not give you a true clean HDMI signal.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Remember keep in mind like I have mentioned in the past the actual board is analog (from what I have read) so using an HDMI plug will not give you a true clean HDMI signal.

That's what some have claimed, but so far I'm skeptical. The explanation for their belief I've seen so far is that no HDCP chip is identified on the mainboard and thus the Xbox 360 does not support HDCP. However, it should be noted that ATI GPUs support both HDMI (of course) and HDCP. No separate HDCP chip is needed. The Xbox 360 uses an ATI GPU.

Anyways, if it could ONLY output analogue then HDMI is impossible. You wouldn't get half-assed HDMI. You would get no HDMI at all. That could be the case, but then it wouldn't meet the HD DVD spec, since HDMI/DVI with HDCP is required in the spec as a basic feature for HD DVD players, even if component is already there.

Only a few more days until we know for sure...

P.S. It seems the HD-DVD price drops have already begun. Target was selling the Toshiba HD DVD player online for under $460 including shipping.

[Eug Wanker]

HD DVD add-on for Xbox 360:

This new accessory will connect to the Xbox 360 console with a USB cable, enabling it to harness the power of the Xbox 360 console for the HD video outputs and digital surround sound.

So what's the suggested price for the Xbox 360 HD DVD player? "Stay tuned. We decided to save that good news for another day, but we're clearly out to make this an affordable option for Xbox 360 owners," said Penello.

So, only a vague description of its specs, and no price. Looks to me it ain't gonna be cheap... I wasn't expecting it to be über cheap anyways. I'm guessing $200-250.

[sabrejim]

So basically it's gonna be an external dvd drive. And probably going to be hookable to a regular PC too. Wheee.

Anyway HD DVD rocks. I was watching Goodfellas the other day and it looked like the dirt was actually on my tv. Totally cool can't wait for the ring.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by kaze0

So basically it's gonna be an external dvd drive.

Yes.

And probably going to be hookable to a regular PC too. Wheee.

Possible, but it's also possible it will only work on the Xbox 360.

---

P.S. Some of the HD authoring guys have been commenting on the MPEG2 Blu-ray single-layer disc conundrum. (ie. Neither dual-layer media nor mature VC-1 nor H.264 authoring solutions are available yet for Blu-ray.) They say that given the audio tracks expected on these discs, it will leave around 20 Mbps or less for the video for movies that are longer than about 2 hours.

They go on to say that it will be OK, but not great, since MPEG2 only really does well at much higher bitrates (closer to 30 Mbps, including audio). So, Blu-ray may not be ideal for the time being with long movies at this time in terms of video quality. As I mentioned earlier though, this will all change once Blu-ray gets better VC-1 and H.264 authoring solutions, or it gets dual-layer.

(This is not an issue on HD DVD, since the movies are being encoded with VC-1 or H.264 already on HD DVD.)

BTW, I note that Batman Begins is 2 hours and 21 minutes long.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

HD DVD add-on for Xbox 360:

This new accessory will connect to the Xbox 360 console with a USB cable, enabling it to harness the power of the Xbox 360 console for the HD video outputs and digital surround sound.

So what's the suggested price for the Xbox 360 HD DVD player? "Stay tuned. We decided to save that good news for another day, but we're clearly out to make this an affordable option for Xbox 360 owners," said Penello.

So, only a vague description of its specs, and no price. Looks to me it ain't gonna be cheap... I wasn't expecting it to be über cheap anyways. I'm guessing $200-250.

Somehow I think it will only work with Xbox's not PCs. MS is selling them for cheap as it is really only the reader and the powerful xbox CPU's will handle all the decoding.

It is a good way for MS to sell more Xbox's.

[sabrejim]

Goodfellas is 2 hours 26 minutes long and looks fantastic.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by kaze0

Goodfellas is 2 hours 26 minutes long and looks fantastic.

Well, that's because it's encoded with VC-1. There's no need to use MPEG2 on HD DVD.
VC-1 (and H.264) encoding is already used for HD DVD, and it requires a lot less space than MPEG2 to maintain good quality.

I don't know what is the average bitrate of the Goodfellas disc, but I suspect they could use VC-1 encoded at around 18 Mbps average and it'd look absolutely stellar. At 18 Mbps, that's less than 20 GB for a 2 hour 26 minute movie.

[Eug Wanker]

Well, HD DVD just got a shot in the arm today.

Sony's Blu-ray PS3 with HDMI costs $599. The $499 version doesn't include HDMI.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Well, HD DVD just got a shot in the arm today.

Sony's Blu-ray PS3 with HDMI costs $599. The $499 version doesn't include HDMI.

That, and I could see HD-DVD players drop to $399 for the holiday season, and by then production will be ramped up.

[Eug Wanker]

Engadget: Hands on with the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive



"the (non-functional) drive itself had only a power plug (which looked to be of the variety that runs to the wall, no adapter required), a mini USB host port for connecting to the 360, two full USB ports for the device to otherwise act as a USB hub, and a spot for your 360 WiFi adapter to latch on the back since it could possibly be displaced by the use of the rear USB port to get this thing running on the console."

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

"...the (non-functional) drive itself..."

WTF? If the drive is non-functional, how could they do a proper "hands-on" article???

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Person Man

WTF? If the drive is non-functional, how could they do a proper "hands-on" article???

They didn't, and yeah the title is inappropriate, but that's the title they used.

Anyways, the info is pretty much what I expected:

1) The drive isn't humungous, and kinda looks like an Xbox 360 in aesthetics. In fact it's pretty small, basically just a USB enclosure for a standard desktop optical drive.
2) It's USB 2.0 with USB inputs. (See number 3.)
3) It has a clip-on spot for the 802.11a/b/g wireless adapter.
4) It has an internal power supply. (My 5.25" optical drive enclosures have internal power supplies too.)
5) It has no HDMI output. (HDMI output from the drive itself wouldn't make sense, since it's the Xbox 360 doing the decoding.)

[Eug Wanker]

"We've gotten several e-mails from Bits readers this afternoon, indicating that Microsoft may have inadvertently let the cat out of the bag with regard to the price of the newly announced HD-DVD add-on drive for their Xbox 360 game system. According to a few of our ever observant readers, a $199 price for the device appeared in this story at Xbox.com for a brief time today. A short time after it appeared, however, the specific pricing information was removed."

P.S. It comes with a universal remote.

[Dark Helmet]

I have to admit the design is a lot nicer than I thought it would be.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Actually playback was fine for all but the picky or hi-def crowd. Heck they even made it progressive scan later on.

God you are so damn programmed. It looks like total ass.

[Eug Wanker]

Another pic

I like it. It looks like it will be able to stand up and still fit in my entertainment centre.

I have the Xbox 360 sitting horizontally on top of a DVD player (which coincidentally is the same width as the Xbox 360) and their combined height is similar to the Xbox 360's HD DVD drive standing up.

If the drive truly is US$199 (CAD$219) then I'll probably pick it up. The main thing that worries me is the player. The Xbox 360's player UI is mediocre at best, and it doesn't have the ability to force a 4:3 image. That means on my screen that all 4:3 content is stretched to fit a 16:9 screen. That said, most HD DVD content will be 16:9 I'm guessing.

BTW, I wonder if this thing will work on a PC/Mac.

[olePigeon]

So with the HD-DVD, the XBox 360 costs the same as a PS3.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

So with the HD-DVD, the XBox 360 costs the same as a PS3.

Actually the Xbox is more because it doesn't come with wireless, that is $100 extra.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by meelk

God you are so damn programmed. It looks like total ass.

Thank you, we all highly value your opinion on aesthetics.

Nice Bevel and Drop shadow on your sig by the way. Reminds me of high school when people who had no clue about design or photoshop wrote their names in the name manner and thought it was wicked cool.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane

[Eug Wanker]

O.M.G.

Sony Electronics exec sees tight component demand

"Glasgow said he believed the battle over formats could be resolved within 12 to 24 months, but entertained the possibility of creating a player that combined both technologies."

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Thank you, we all highly value your opinion on athletics.

[BrunoBruin]

Is it true that the Xbox drive will only output 720p?! What on earth is the point of that? Or is it because it connects via USB, and HDCP can't be implemented that way?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by BrunoBruin

Is it true that the Xbox drive will only output 720p?! What on earth is the point of that? Or is it because it connects via USB, and HDCP can't be implemented that way?

720p and 1080i are pretty much exactly the same. 720p is actually better for video with motion or sports.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by BrunoBruin

Is it true that the Xbox drive will only output 720p?!

It is not true.

Or is it because it connects via USB, and HDCP can't be implemented that way?

So far there has been no mention of HDCP. 720p and 1080i don't inherently require HDCP, and HDCP can't be used over an analogue component output anyway.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

It is not true.


So far there has been no mention of HDCP. 720p and 1080i don't inherently require HDCP, and HDCP can't be used over an analogue component output anyway.

Microsoft said something about the XBox 360 working with protected content that looked for HDCP without actually putting HDCP on the 360. I'm not sure what that was about.

[Hal06]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I have to admit the design is a lot nicer than I thought it would be.

What kind of design had you been expecting?, while the external hard disk is not that bad, this hd-dvd add-on doesn't look any special. Any added bulk is never cool, the thing is big enough yet.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Inside Man

What kind of design had you been expecting?, while the external hard disk is not that bad, this hd-dvd add-on doesn't look any special. Any added bulk is never cool, the thing is big enough yet.

I thought they would make it sit underneath the Xbox.

Don't get my wrong I wouldn't be caught dead buying one but for an external drive it looks as good as it can. I have modern DVD burners that are bigger.

Have you seen what the full sized HD-DVD player looks like? They are bigger than an Xbox with the add on drive.

[BrunoBruin]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

720p and 1080i don't inherently require HDCP, and HDCP can't be used over an analogue component output anyway.

Oh, believe me, I know. I have a component-only HDTV and I've been scouring the Web for information on how seriously boned I am (not completely, as it turns out, for the time being). What I wondered was, IF the 360 add-on was limited to 720p, were they artificially throttling the resolution because of the USB connection - similar to the image constraint flag that cuts the resolution from your high-def DVD player if it's not using HDCP and the disc demands it. But I'll bow to Eug's assertion that it's not limited to 720.

(Sidebar: I have to give props to Toshiba: they have been remarkably helpful in my quest to add DVI to my TV. They do actually sell an upgrade kit for $200. Unfortunately they recommend the upgrade be done by a technician, for ~$300. For that price I'd be tempted to stick with component and hope the studios don't start to implement ICT until it's time to replace the TV. But I thought it was nice to at least have the option.)

[Brien]

I'm wondering if Microsoft will release a new top of the line model 360 with a large HD and a built in HD-DVD drive, spec on spec with the PS3. (And maybe drop the price of the old 'Premium' bundle).

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Brien

I'm wondering if Microsoft will release a new top of the line model 360 with a large HD and a built in HD-DVD drive, spec on spec with the PS3. (And maybe drop the price of the old 'Premium' bundle).

I am sure they will next year.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

BTW, I wonder if this thing will work on a PC/Mac.

I'm guessing MS will support it with Vista, not sure about XP or OSX. The linux guys will probably hack out some form of support.

[Hal06]

Damn SONY, my size comparison is no longer true, the PS3 shown at e3 is even bigger than the aforementioned silver one model…

[Eug Wanker]

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this post, but the poster is a well-respected insider at AVS apparently:

Finally...I can stop keeping secrets. Well, some secrets.

The Xbox360 HD DVD sidecar does not support HDMI...component only, 720p/1080i...confirmed by MSFT to CED. Said Albert Penello of MSFT: "You don't need HDMI because 720p/1080i is the sweet spot and less than half of today's TVs have HDMI."

The $499 PS3 not only doesn't support HDMI, it too is limited to 1080i max (no 1080p support in the chipset)...confirmed by Sony. So much for the "real HD is 1080p" line. When questioned by the BBC on this issue Thursday, Phil Harrison of SCE said: "What we should be clear about is that the functionality is identical in both machines. There's no difference in what the machine does....it's just that the technical method of extracting audio and video from the devices is slightly different." Later Thursday, the story changed, and SCE confirmed no HDMI and a max 1080i output through the AV Multi-Out...also, lossy 5.1 is the "highest quality" audio option for this SKU.

The no-HDMI support for the $499 PS3 "stunned" Hollywood insiders. Said CED: "Spokespeople for the major studios declined comment on the situation Thurs., pending a statement from SCE on its rationale for leaving off the HDMI."

To take it over the top, Kuturagi pi$$ed off Sony's Blu-ray partners (and studios) by noting that the PS3 wasn't a trojan horse for getting Blu-ray into homes: "The PS3 uses the Blu-ray Disc because it can store a large amount of data. This is to enhance the power of the PS3, not to spread the Blu-ray standard." Disney and Fox were not amused.

Nor was Philips, who at CES 2006 noted that they would "only introduce a player if we can do it in a competitive way. If PS3 sells at $499 then that is because the games companies can afford to subsidize players to sell games." The sudden reality of a $499 PS3 left Philips to note that they are "still convinced that Blu-ray as a standalone product does have a future -- like DVD now, despite DVD playback by games machines" and that they will go ahead with their plans to launch Blu-ray despite Sony's pricing shock and penetration strategy.

A bit more on AVCHD for those interested. Sony and MEI developed it outside of The DVD Forum on purpose to avoid pushback from other CE companies. 650nm read laser, AVC MP (I thought I read HP support somewhere, though) with support for legacy DD and LPCM audio...20 minutes of HD at 9.0MBps, 40 minutes of SD at 4.5Mbps. Licensing is in the works.

If the stuff about the studios is true, then expect to see more studios announcing HD DVD support this year.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Inside Man

Damn SONY, my size comparison is no longer true, the PS3 shown at e3 is even bigger than the aforementioned silver one model…

Yep, also keep in mind that the Asian Market didn't like the Xbox because they thought it was too big.

How does this new PS2 compare to the original PS2 in size?

[BrunoBruin]

Well, since they've all decided that HDMI isn't really necessary after all, they'd frakking well better keep their traps shut about image constraint. Although, since both camps seem to be doing everything they can to have everything both ways, I wouldn't bat an eye if they sold 10 million consoles and then said "Oh, by the way, from now on all discs will have ICT and everything you buy from now on will only output half the resolution. Sorry you all jumped in early and bought those non-HDMI game consoles."

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by BrunoBruin

Well, since they've all decided that HDMI isn't really necessary after all, they'd frakking well better keep their traps shut about image constraint. Although, since both camps seem to be doing everything they can to have everything both ways, I wouldn't bat an eye if they sold 10 million consoles and then said "Oh, by the way, from now on all discs will have ICT and everything you buy from now on will only output half the resolution. Sorry you all jumped in early and bought those non-HDMI game consoles."

Well to be fair HD-DVD can easily do the same thing. It is more what the studio wants to do with that movie rather than the player.

For example I have an up-converting DVD player. The new Star Wars disks (along with a few others) will not allow up-conversion through component.

[ort888]

It's funny because he's gay! Ha.

Oh wait, it's actually not funny at all. I get it.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by ort888

It's funny because he's gay! Ha.

Oh wait, it's actually not funny at all. I get it.

The funniest part is he got banned

You should have seen him PM's to me, worthy of brokeback.

[angelmb]

there is a great read @ the NYTimes,

http://tinyurl.com/k654n

David Pogue's "Why the World Doesn't Need Hi-Def DVD's"

great stuff, as usual from David.

[Hal06]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

How does this new PS2 compare to the original PS2 in size?

I guess that is a typo and you mean "this new PS3"… well, here you go:

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by angelmb

there is a great read @ the NYTimes,

http://tinyurl.com/k654n

David Pogue's "Why the World Doesn't Need Hi-Def DVD's"

great stuff, as usual from David.

Such a great review! The picture quality may be super nice, but you need a new big TV for it. If only I made the big bucks as a columnist and could buy a 52in TV. Then I could go about replacing my 200 DVDs.

[Eug Wanker]

I saw the Toshiba player in Best Buy.

The image quality is spectacular, and the improvement is quite noticeable even on a 37" TV... at least for certain movies.

The trailer for Batman Begins is absolutely gorgeous. It's about 10X better than the Apple QT Batman Begins HD trailer. Not only is the the image über, über detailed, it's also completely devoid of any artifacts. Did I say the image is absolutely gorgeous? Un-frickin-believable.

OTOH, I was much less impressed by the trailer for The Manchurian Candidate. I'm not sure about the quality of the original film, but it looks like they chose a less than ideal source for this HD DVD. But again, what really struck me was the complete lack of artifacts.

We've grown accustomed to see minor artifacts on DVDs, but they just weren't there on these trailers.

So why are the Apple HD trailers so crappy in comparison? Well, they max out at somewhere like 8 Mbps H.264. I don't how they're encoded on the demo disc, but if they're anything like the actual release DVDs, the bitrates are roughly TWICE that and often higher, using VC-1 (which has a similar efficiency to H.264). 18 Mbps is roughly what is often used for MPEG2 HD on broadcast TV, and VC-1 and H.264 have been said to be roughly twice as efficient. IOW, HD DVDs are using similar bitrates as MPEG2 is using for HDTV, but HD DVDs are using much better codecs than MPEG2. Thus, the stuff we're getting on HD DVDs is often much higher quality than the HD on TV. Personally I think HD on TV is already damn good, but these HD DVD trailers are definitely a step up. (Some of the Microsoft guys are saying that if you want to get close with MPEG2 to matching well-encoded 16-18 Mbps VC-1, you need more than 25 Mbps on MPEG2, and sometimes higher. Like I said, broadcast HD is MPEG2 less than 20.)

Yet, after saying all this, I'm still not that interested in buying at this time. There aren't that many discs out, and the ones that are out don't interest me. The local BB had three on display next to the player. (I didn't bother looking in the actual HD DVD section to see if there were more releases available though.)

Serenity: Already seen it, and don't want to see it again.
Doom: I hear the movie sucks, and I have no interest in it. (The trailer quality was excellent though.)
Phantom of the Opera: I can't stand Andrew Lloyd Weber.

[Eug Wanker]

A glimpse into the Batman Begins HD DVD:



"We divide the interactivity into three buckets, if you will. The first is the ability to interact with the main content on the disc, which you access through the menus. That interactivity with the main content will include all the things we'll be able to do that we couldn't with standard-def DVDs. Along with doing commentaries where you can see the talent talk about the project while the movie is playing, we can do things similar to the telestrator drawings you see on TV during a football game. So while a director is talking about a certain part of the film in the commentary, he can suddenly highlight the portion of the screen that he's talking about. The second area is the new interactive things, such as more sophisticated games, we can put on the disc along with the movie."

[BrunoBruin]

Originally Posted by angelmb

David Pogue's "Why the World Doesn't Need Hi-Def DVD's"

I'm getting tired of hearing this circular argument about high-def. "The picture isn't that much better, and why should I replace my DVDs?" Well, if you don't think the picture is that much better, DON'T replace your DVDs. It seems to escape people, but your old DVDs and your old player will continue to work just fine. They're not going to magically stop working just because there's a new format out there.

It reminds me of the routine whinging about Apple wanting $129 for an OS upgrade. "Apple is forcing me to upgrade! Technical innovation must stop!"

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

So why are the Apple HD trailers so crappy in comparison?

Are you watching them on the same TV?

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Are you watching them on the same TV?

No, cuz I don't have a HD DVD player at home. However, it was on an LCD TV at Best Buy, and I have watched a few Apple trailers on an LCD TV. Actually two different LCD TVs, and several computer LCDs. There is visible colour banding on lots of the Apple clips, but the Best Buy display was completely devoid of any such colour banding. However, that's no surprise because the bitrate is so much lower on the Apple clips.

Anyways, it was a rhetorical question. Basically all I'm saying is that the clips I saw in the store are way, Way, WAY better than the HD trailers on Apple's site. Totally different league. So, don't use those Apple clips as any indication as to what HD discs will look like.

[sabrejim]

Theres definately macroblocking and color banding on the apple clips, on the same monitor, whereas with HD DVD is pretty much perffffectttt. Except for very few dark scenes you might get some hard to notice macroblocking. But overall HD DVD has absolutely killed HD from my cable company. HD Cable just looks awful.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

The player is a "disgrace".

"Reviewers at Consumer Electronics Net weren’t impressed with the $500 Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD player, calling it “a disgrace.” Fan noise, crashing, a clumsy remote and slow performance doomed the first-to-market player, and the reviewer wasn’t too impressed with its standard-definition DVD up-rezzing capability, either. There were even choice words for electronics retailer Best Buy, which tried to sell the reviewer a $100 HDMI cable, falsely denying that there was already one included in the box. Said the reviewer of the Toshiba player:

“Please, do yourself a favor and don’t go through the trouble of buying it, setting it up and being frustrated by it. Wait until this format is more mature, because now, it reminds me of the early days of MS-DOS computing. The only reason I give it more than one star is because of the high quality of its video. Not recommended under any circumstances. 2 out of 10 stars.”
Overall, it’s a disappointing performance for the HD DVD player for which we had such high hopes. It can only get better."

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home/tosh...ace-174127.php