[Big Mac]

In his interview with Larry King, Moore conceded that socialized medicine in Europe has its problems, but he claimed to have a solution. He said we could take what works in England, what works in France, what works in Canada, etc, and then put it in a "melting pot" and come up with a system that's great because America is a great country. There you go, that's his solution - magic. We can magically make socialized medicine work so much better than the Europeans by a magical mixing process. . . .

Is he serious? Does he expect anyone to buy that? Is that what passes for critical thinking in that retard pig mind of his? Or is he just trying to dupe the gullible? If a superior system could be made by mixing and matching the best of a failed system, the Europeans would have done precisely that long ago!

Moore also answered a question about what kind of health care he provides his employees. He boasts that he gives them the gold package with full benefits. If that's the case then certainly he knows under socialized medicine his employees wouldn't receive the gold standard, they'd receive the lowest standard along with everyone else forced into the system. But since he's such a generous guy, and since he's making half of every ticket sale to that worthless piece of crap film of his, he can afford to pay for many more insurance plans. I think I'll send him my bills and see what kind of response I get.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

In his interview with Larry King, Moore conceded that socialized medicine in Europe has its problems, but he claimed to have a solution. He said we could take what works in England, what works in France, what works in Canada, etc, and then put it in a "melting pot" and come up with a system that's great because America is a great country. There you go, that's his solution - magic. We can magically make socialized medicine work so much better than the Europeans by a magical mixing process. . . .

Is he serious? Does he expect anyone to buy that? Is that what passes for critical thinking in that retard pig mind of his? Or is he just trying to dupe the gullible? If a superior system could be made by mixing and matching the best of a failed system, the Europeans would have done precisely that long ago!

Good point!

[Big Mac]

Thank you!

[typoon]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Is he serious? Does he expect anyone to buy that? Is that what passes for critical thinking in that retard pig mind of his? Or is he just trying to dupe the gullible?
.

The answer to that is Yes, Yes and Yes. Many liberals and others will believe what Moore thinks.

[besson3c]

Wow, a vague statement is enough to set you clowns off?

This thread is going to be fun...

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

I bet Moore's next documentary will be about the homeless. His solution, Stalinitsas (one room sh!t holes that Stalin built to keep the poor in so he could claim their was no homelessness).

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Wow, a vague statement is enough to set you clowns off?

This thread is going to be fun...

It wasn't a vague statement at all, besson, it was his general solution for health care. He was being serious, so I took the comment seriously.

[BRussell]

He says we shouldn't do exactly what some other country does, we can learn from what other countries do right and what they do wrong? Jeez. What a retard pig. And to think, some leftists loons in the US will actually agree with that. It would be like freakin magic haha! Learn from what other countries do. Unbelievable. Wow. Incredible. WTF.

BTW I looked at the CNN transcript and I couldn't find where Moore said this, but if he had, jeez, how insanely crazy retarded and piglike!

And isn't there already a thread for this? Jeez, what a retard pig that Moore is.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It wasn't a vague statement at all, besson, it was his general solution for health care. He was being serious, so I took the comment seriously.

What is so abstract and outlandish about what he said? The problem was that he didn't provide specifics, but obviously we can learn from what other countries (that are ahead of us in terms of accessibility) have done...

I mean, duh! If any, this was simply stating the obvious, but worthy of roasting him over?


It's fun playing with Republicans. All you have to do is say the magic word "Moore" or "Sheehan" and they go bat **** crazy making knee jerk reactions all over the place.

[larrinski]

Without "trying" to piss off the American posters, your health care system is crap!!

I pay a small monthly fee for my family to have universal health care in Canada. Even if I didn't pay the bill, we are still Guaranteed health care. No huge bills, or being denied medical attention because of my economic status...My company also provides me additional coverage for prescriptions, etc...For the less fortunate, the patients that need medicine, the province subsidizes the bill.

Health care should be a right, not a privilege...

[Buckaroo]

Moore is a total brainless idiot. I listened to an interview between him and Bill Oriley. Moore kept spewing out the same stupid dribble over and over. He's an idiot with a big inheritance.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What is so abstract and outlandish about what he said? The problem was that he didn't provide specifics, but obviously we can learn from what other countries (that are ahead of us in terms of accessibility) have done...

The point is, besson, if one could overcome the inherent drawbacks that make socialized medicine a flawed and failing system in the countries that have it by simply comparing what's currently done and doing it better, all those countries that have it right now would have perfected their systems doing just that. It's a patently stupid claim to make because it's just not possible to do what Moore is advocating. And anyone who thinks it's as simple is that is part of the intended moronic audience Moore is targeting.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by larrinski 

I pay a small monthly fee for my family to have universal health care in Canada.

Well, bully for you, but your country has a population of just a little over 10% of the United States population. Your country is a bit healthier than ours, too. And you get taxed heavily for the privilege of the social welfare state you so enjoy, which makes you wait - at times years - for surgery that is medically necessary but that does not rise to the level of life saving. People suffer in pain and end up coming to this country because your country has to schedule in their surgery and doctors are prohibited at pain of imprisonment from practicing privately. No thank you.

Health care should be a right, not a privilege...

That's nice that you feel that way. What other things should be rights and not privileges in your opinion? Housing should be a right, I assume you'd say. And a living wage should be a right even if a person doesn't work for it, I bet you think. I guess you think it's proper to make other people pay for your poor choices in life. Tell me, why do companies there cover prescription drugs instead of the universal system? Don't you think that should be another right? Should it also be a right if someone sneaks into your country? Maybe Americans should cross the border and start demanding free health services because we don't get them here, and after all, we have the right to demand such things according to you.

People don't understand how things work in the USA - even many American don't understand it. We value liberty down here, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness - not the guarantee of it at the expense of fellow citizens. These United States were built on freedom and personal responsibility. If you want something, you have the freedom and the power to pursue your goals. People aren't going to automatically hand things out to you. That's what made us the richest, freest, greatest country on earth. The entitlement mafia wants to turn the US into a poor imitation of the failed systems of Old Europe, and it wants to convince the have-nots that they should go along. I know you don't care if America is ruined, but many of us do.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

He says we shouldn't do exactly what some other country does, we can learn from what other countries do right and what they do wrong? Jeez. What a retard pig. And to think, some leftists loons in the US will actually agree with that. It would be like freakin magic haha! Learn from what other countries do. Unbelievable. Wow. Incredible. WTF.

BTW I looked at the CNN transcript and I couldn't find where Moore said this, but if he had, jeez, how insanely crazy retarded and piglike!

And isn't there already a thread for this? Jeez, what a retard pig that Moore is.

The OP doesn't have a solution either, but it's easier to attack the messenger and blather out a bunch of generalizations. If you don't agree with his points of view, you're an enemy of the state. Democracy at its finest!

[Big Mac]

Oh I have a solution. What I don't have is a putrid personality, a 200+ pound obesity problem and the wealth to peddle my message (in his case propaganda) nationally. And you'll have to excuse me, but I take great offense when someone assaults my country.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The point is, besson, if one could overcome the inherent drawbacks that make socialized medicine a flawed and failing system in the countries that have it by simply comparing what's currently done and doing it better, all those countries that have it right now would have perfected their systems doing just that.

Now that is an absurd claim. If we're doing something a certain way right now, it must be the best possible way, because otherwise we'd be doing it a different way? No progress would ever be made if everybody took such a view. Perfecting a system is obviously not some magic, instantaneous thing like you seem to believe.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's a patently stupid claim to make because it's just not possible to do what Moore is advocating. And anyone who thinks it's as simple is that is part of the intended moronic audience Moore is targeting.

Moore has never claimed to be an economist or a social scientist. He'll specifically say so in interviews — I've read several quotes of his in interviews for previous movies along the lines of, "I'm not proposing a specific solution. There are some incredibly brilliant minds in these fields, and it would be pretentious of me to order them around. I'm just looking and showing them how what we have now is not working."

[gradient]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

People don't understand how things work in the USA....... These United States were built on freedom and personal responsibility. If you want something, you have the freedom and the power to pursue your goals. People aren't going to automatically hand things out to you. That's what made us the richest, freest, greatest country on earth.

Now THAT is comedy. You say that people don't understand how the USA works, but I'd say that it is you who don't understand the rest of the western world. What makes you think that the US is any more "free" then Canada, the UK or the rest of Europe? What makes you think that people in those countries don't have the power to pursue their goals? What makes you think that freedom and a basic standard of living cannot go hand in hand? Are you really the type of person that will gladly take home a big salary and pay little tax, knowing that, as a direct systematic result, there are poor people in your own community who will remain trapped in a life of poverty?

Give us all a break with the "ra, ra, the USA is the greatest country on Earth and anyone who proposes otherwise must be a mindless ****" routine - it is beneath you.

[gradient]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Moore has never claimed to be an economist or a social scientist. He'll specifically say so in interviews — I've read several quotes of his in interviews for previous movies along the lines of, "I'm not proposing a specific solution. There are some incredibly brilliant minds in these fields, and it would be pretentious of me to order them around. I'm just looking and showing them how what we have now is not working."

Exactly. It isn't reasonable to expect one person to (who is a film maker, remember) to not only point out the flaws in our society but ALSO solve them. Moore is very adept at pointing out the weaknesses he sees in the systems around him; just because he isn't putting a complete gameplan for change on the table doesn't make his criticisms any less valid.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Now that is an absurd claim. If we're doing something a certain way right now, it must be the best possible way, because otherwise we'd be doing it a different way? No progress would ever be made if everybody took such a view. Perfecting a system is obviously not some magic, instantaneous thing like you seem to believe.

I didn't say that what "we" (you didn't define the pronoun there so I'll assum it's generic) have currently is the best system. I did say that Moore's claim that we (as in the United States) can magically overcome the flaws of socialized medicine by stirring the best of each system in a pot is pathetically stupid rhetoric designed to ensare feeble minds.

And gradient, you don't like me pointing out America's place on top in the world, it's still the truth. America attained its position in the world by doing things better than Europe, not adopting their failed systems. Not only would socialized medicine not work for the United States, and not only would people be tremendously dissatisfied with what they got from such a system, it would be completely economically inviable. You're totally right (Chuckit) when you note that Moore isn't an economist - he's a socialist puke with a big fat mouth whose demagoguery is sickening.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Oh I have a solution. What I don't have is a putrid personality, a 200+ pound obesity problem and the wealth to peddle my message (in his case propaganda) nationally. And you'll have to excuse me, but I take great offense when someone assaults my country.

If only the rest of the world were as perfect as you. Just imagine how simple everything would be; I mean, the solutions are so obvious aren't they, in your country! I'll be sure to consult you, the next time I need to speak, to make sure it meets your approval.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Moore is a total brainless idiot. I listened to an interview between him and Bill Oriley. Moore kept spewing out the same stupid dribble over and over. He's an idiot with a big inheritance.

Okay... What are we supposed to say to this?

Care to elaborate, perhaps make an argument with some sort of basis?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The point is, besson, if one could overcome the inherent drawbacks that make socialized medicine a flawed and failing system in the countries that have it by simply comparing what's currently done and doing it better, all those countries that have it right now would have perfected their systems doing just that. It's a patently stupid claim to make because it's just not possible to do what Moore is advocating. And anyone who thinks it's as simple is that is part of the intended moronic audience Moore is targeting.

Moore's opinions seem to center around accessibility and the role of insurance companies. Whatever you think about the quality of health care in other countries is a different discussion, but this doesn't take away from the simple fact that other countries do, in fact, have us beat in these areas.

And, there are definite economic upsides. Expenses for everybody are lower, average life expectancies are higher, and there is less strain put on their systems in emergency care.

I just wish you would actually make a focussed, specific argument rather than all of this emotional blabbering on about Michael Moore's character, and what you think you know about other health care systems.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I just wish you would actually make a focussed, specific argument rather than all of this emotional blabbering on about Michael Moore's character, and what you think you know about other health care systems.

The costs would be higher, not lower I can guarantee, and there's no guarantee life expectancy would go that much, if at all. Additionally, I'm not doing the emotional blabbering. If you want a more substantive take, see the other thread. I just created this one because that comment struck me as incredibly dumb.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Well, bully for you, but your country has a population of just a little over 10% of the United States population. Your country is a bit healthier than ours, too. And you get taxed heavily for the privilege of the social welfare state you so enjoy, which makes you wait - at times years - for surgery that is medically necessary but that does not rise to the level of life saving. People suffer in pain and end up coming to this country because your country has to schedule in their surgery and doctors are prohibited at pain of imprisonment from practicing privately. No thank you.


That's nice that you feel that way. What other things should be rights and not privileges in your opinion? Housing should be a right, I assume you'd say. And a living wage should be a right even if a person doesn't work for it, I bet you think. I guess you think it's proper to make other people pay for your poor choices in life. Tell me, why do companies there cover prescription drugs instead of the universal system? Don't you think that should be another right? Should it also be a right if someone sneaks into your country? Maybe Americans should cross the border and start demanding free health services because we don't get them here, and after all, we have the right to demand such things according to you.

People don't understand how things work in the USA - even many American don't understand it. We value liberty down here, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness - not the guarantee of it at the expense of fellow citizens. These United States were built on freedom and personal responsibility. If you want something, you have the freedom and the power to pursue your goals. People aren't going to automatically hand things out to you. That's what made us the richest, freest, greatest country on earth. The entitlement mafia wants to turn the US into a poor imitation of the failed systems of Old Europe, and it wants to convince the have-nots that they should go along. I know you don't care if America is ruined, but many of us do.

Big Mac, you need to look at this objectively if you wish to entertain any position other than the ones you already hold.

We could go back and forth all day coming up with little stories and cases where our medical systems fail, but what would this get us?

For instance, one of my brother's best friends was diagnosed with a malignant form of cancer in her 20s. They felt that her cancer was treatable. As it turns out, she did end up dying, but going over her bills once she passed away, her family would have easily run out of money long before they were even able to attempt any kind of treatment.

But so what? Of course there are problems and failings with Canada's system, and ditto for America's or any other country's. You have to look at the broader picture, the numbers, the costs, really talk with a number of doctors and medical experts, not just a few whom have their own sets of opinions and bias. You definitely won't get an opinion from some right wing nut job website either.

I agree with what many others have said here. Many Americans (including yourself) believe in a lot of myths and misinformation surrounding Canada's health care system. What little information you may have may be outdated (such as the length of waits), and other information may be flat out false.

Why don't you actually talk to some Canadians on this board and do some actual objective research before blabbering on about socialism and all of this other right wing crap?

These sorts of knee jerk reactions *really* make conversation difficult.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Big Mac, you need to look at this objectively if you wish to entertain any position other than the ones you already hold.

We could go back and forth all day coming up with little stories and cases where our medical systems fail, but what would this get us?

Tell Moore that. He's the one who focused largely on anecdotal experiences to declare that Cuba, of all places, has excellent health care. I'm not talking about anecdotes - I am indeed talking big picture here. Please see the other thread since you obviously don't understand what I'm talking about.

For instance, one of my brother's best friends was diagnosed with a malignant form of cancer in her 20s. They felt that her cancer was treatable. As it turns out, she did end up dying, but going over her bills once she passed away, her family would have easily run out of money long before they were even able to attempt any kind of treatment.

That's sad but irrelevant. If she lived in America and didn't have insurance she had no mechanism to absorb catastrophic risk which is a problem for the uninsured. If she lived in Canada, then, well, you can figure out the rest of that line. . .

But so what? Of course there are problems and failings with Canada's system, and ditto for America's or any other country's. You have to look at the broader picture, the numbers, the costs, really talk with a number of doctors and medical experts, not just a few whom have their own sets of opinions and bias. You definitely won't get an opinion from some right wing nut job website either.

I have done the research. I have a degree in Political Science, and one emphasis of my degree was Economics. I also work as an insurance agent, so I know how health care works and how it's paid for. I don't think you specialize in such fields. And perhaps you don't know your system as well as you believe yourself to. But either way I don't really care all that much about Canada's experience because it's irrelevant to American health care. I know that with the population of America, with our generally unhealthy lifestyles, with our constantly expanding illegal population that already strains our social services, with our incompetent government and with Medicare (which is what Moore wants for everyone) threatening us with IMMENSE and crippling deficits in the next two decades, socialized medicine would be the death knell for the American economy.

I agree with what many others have said here. Many Americans (including yourself) believe in a lot of myths and misinformation surrounding Canada's health care system. What little information you may have may be outdated (such as the length of waits), and other information may be flat out false.

The reports I read paint a very different picture.

Why don't you actually talk to some Canadians on this board and do some actual objective research before blabbering on about socialism and all of this other right wing crap?

You may or may not know Canada. I assure you I know America, and the fact is that socialized medicine here is untenable. Whether you wish to attack me for my message in order to serve your inflated ego is entirely your call.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Whether you wish to attack me for my message in order to serve your inflated ego is entirely your call.

And you expect people to respond positively. Oh, the oozing of irony.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

And you expect people to respond positively. Oh, the oozing of irony.

There was nothing mean about that statement. It's just the truth, and the truth does often hurt those who aren't prepared to accept it.

[gradient]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

And gradient, you don't like me pointing out America's place on top in the world, it's still the truth. America attained its position in the world by doing things better than Europe, not adopting their failed systems.

Please, feel free to point outexactly what has led you to believe that the US is on top of the world and that Europes systems are failing. If you have money ANY country can be a great place to live, but what if you don't.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Poverty_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index

You can find as many holes as you'd like in those rankings but the point is that there is far more to life and society then accumulating $$ - most people in the world would prefer to live in a country that cares for its poor, not one that leaves them for dead.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

That's sad but irrelevant. If she lived in America and didn't have insurance she had no mechanism to absorb catastrophic risk which is a problem for the uninsured.

Correct, that is a problem for the uninsured and even many of the insured (owing to the fact that many insurance companies are scummy). This is why some people want the government to put a mechanism in place to protect the people under its care.

[BRussell]

Bigmac, if you think we in the US have a better system than those other countries right now, you just don't know the facts or you're willfully distorting them. We not only spend twice as much (per capita) on health care as any of our peer countries, our government spends more (per capita, or as a % of GDP) than any of them. Yet we have worse health outcomes and a huge percentage of our population uninsured. Our system is completely broken. For you to call those other country's systems failed and flawed, when they're far superior to what we have, is to just not live in reality.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Good point!

no it isn't

"Bubble bubble toil and trouble..." -William Shakespeare

---------------------------------------
Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart
How the music can free her, whenever it starts
And it's magic, if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie
I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll

If you believe in magic don't bother to choose
If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues
Just go and listen it'll start with a smile
It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try
Your feet start tapping and you can't seem to find
How you got there, so just blow your mind

If you believe in magic, come along with me
We'll dance until morning 'til there's just you and me
And maybe, if the music is right
I'll meet you tomorrow, sort of late at night
And we'll go dancing, baby, then you'll see
How the magic's in the music and the music's in me

Yeah, do you believe in magic
Yeah, believe in the magic of a young girl's soul
Believe in the magic of rock and roll
Believe in the magic that can set you free
Ohh, talking 'bout magic

Do you believe like I believe Do you believe in magic
Do you believe like I believe Do you believe, believer
Do you believe like I believe Do you believe in magic

-Lovin' Spoonful

[Atomic Rooster]

Who gives a flying monkey fart. Let the Merikans suffer. The terrorists win again.

Everything is bullshit till it fails you and then you'll be whining on here or crying under your bed.

[besson3c]

Why do people insist on persistently attacking the messenger when the messenger (in this case and many others) is simply bringing to the fore viewpoints that thousands (if not millions) of Americans share?

If nothing more, Moore will create some discussion and dialog about this issue. It is not as if he even represents a minority voice. Polls show that Americans want government provided health care for everybody:

Health Policy (3)

If we can trust our governments to put out fires, start (and continue wars), keep our streets safe, etc. Why is it so ridiculous for them to help our health care system run smoothly? If privatizing everything is the way to go, why don't we privatize the services I've listed? Hell, if many are content to have the government regulate things like abortion, gay marriage, usage of guns, etc. It is clear that many are content to have government to control aspects of their lives, for better or worse.

All of this bravado about capitalism and the free market is great and all, but we already have government programs that provide us social security, medicaid/medicare, public education, etc. We depend upon many social programs, and most Americans I'm sure would agree that social programs have their place (as long as you don't use the word "social", since this often conjures knee jerk reactions involving Socialism). Some libertarians may want the government to disband these sorts of programs, but I have no reason to believe that a free and unregulated profit driven market would serve society any better so long as people are interested in making money. All one has to do is look at the business of the medical insurance companies like Michael Moore has done to see capitalism at its possible worst.

The free, unregulated market is no panacea and answer to all. So what are we to do? Well, it is clear that most Americans want a change, and Michael Moore is helping bring this issue to the fore. So cool it with your knee jerk hostility towards the man. If he gets people talking and thinking about this issue and how we might change it, he has done good in my books.

We need changes, and we've sat around and put up with the status quo for too long while many politicians have wrung hands and remained in deadlock. It's time to take care of business.

[Atomic Rooster]

[Atomic Rooster]

Magic Square.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Hey.. that's Bob Saget!


That guy is the best there is!

[ebuddy]

I think I just got done reading about the merits of governmental programs such as medicare/medicaid, social security, and public education and how we depend on many social programs. Dependency seems to be a measure of success.

With the choices we have in providing healthcare, magic might be our best hope.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do people insist on persistently attacking the messenger. . . .

Because the messenger is a deceptive propagandist and demagogue.

I'll concede to you that I was surprised by how skewed those polling responses were. If Americans are as gullible as that page suggests, maybe that's what the country deserves.

You said we trust government to do a bunch of things. What's closer to the truth is that we've allowed government to do more and more. And look at what we've gotten. Do you think Social Security is a good system? (It's a pyramid scheme that will be broke soon.) Do you think Medicare is a good system? (It's a pyramid scheme that is the biggest single threat to the economy of the United States currently.) Do you think most public schools are all that good? Freddie Mac? Welfare? These are the prime examples of the social welfare state you support. And while I'm not completely against all of those things, I don't labor under delusions about how wonderful those programs and services are. They're at best marginally maintained, often a substantial drain and at worse a huge threat to our long term prosperity.

The things governments do well are essential services - police, fire, courts, military, roads and infrastructure. These are things that government excels at. If you think government is good at so many of the other things you referred to, why not advocate government take-overs of all major sectors of the economy?

I mean, at this point the government spends what, $2.7 TRILLION per year, which I think amounts to about 33% of domestic income. If you want socialized medicine just tack a trillion or so more. But since we're going hog wild here, why not just take over more or less the entire economy? The State can take over everything. Every single person at the age of 18 should become an employee of the state or federal government. Then we can have a SOCIALIST love-in. The government can provide for our every want and need. Free government housing, cars, food, health care. Hookers too. Sounds GREAT! Apple Inc.? No, it should really be Apple USA, and then everyone can get subsidized iPhones. You trust your government, don't you? They always make great decisions; they're always so efficient; they always have your best interest in mind and they're always looking out for you. That's what we need, an all powerful State. It will be so great to live in the US(SR) on that day, won't it comrade? Just don't piss off the secret police and you'll be in paradise.

Creeping Socialism, it spreads like cancer.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I think I just got done reading about the merits of governmental programs such as medicare/medicaid, social security, and public education and how we depend on many social programs. Dependency seems to be a measure of success.

With the choices we have in providing healthcare, magic might be our best hope.

Social programs are only as good as the officials running them, as good as their funding allows them to remain afloat, and as good as our democracy works if they are elected positions. It is up to us to not elect clowns that will ruin a program by doing a crappy job (or appointing somebody else that will).

it is literally in the DNA of companies to try to make a profit. That is what they are in business for, this is how capitalism and privatization works, and this is what shareholders expect. We can count on the infatuation of making money and placing this above the common good, this selfishness is a part of most human beings.

However, we can't vote out company execs that we don't like... Large shareholders can, but the average working person cannot. The average person can choose to not vote for politicians that appoints lousy leaders to run something like health care.

We would be better off with our health care being managed by the government. We can't count on the populace becoming involved and giving a rat's ass, but at least the possibility exists.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You said we trust government to do a bunch of things. What's closer to the truth is that we've allowed government to do more and more. And look at what we've gotten. Do you think Social Security is a good system? (It's a pyramid scheme that will be broke soon.) Do you think Medicare is a good system? (It's a pyramid scheme that is the biggest single threat to the economy of the United States currently.) Do you think most public schools are all that good? Freddie Mac? Welfare? These are the prime examples of the social welfare state you support. And while I'm not completely against all of those things, I don't labor under delusions about how wonderful those programs and services are. They're a best marginally maintained, often substantial drain and at worse a huge threat to our long term prosperity.

Republican governments tend to enjoy ensuring that social programs like these don't become too big that they can't strangle them in the bathtub. Granted, corrupt Democratic governments tend to want to want some of these programs too porky and bloated.

Medicaid and Mediacare and Social Security are all designed to serve noble purposes. Why haven't they been adjusted and tweaked so that these problems you cite are more marginal and less glaring? Why is the alternative to kill off these programs so that we are left with nothing? If you want to kill off these programs, fine, but let's replace them with something that we can all get behind.

Bush's social security overhaul got shot down. Like many politicians, instead of revamping this legislation and trying to pass a revised version of this legislation, he runs away with his tail between his legs. That is the problem with many politicians - their image is more important to them than actually getting stuff done. Bush can always say "hey, at least I tried" in debates, and to many this will be good enough.

As far as public schools, what is the alternative there? Private schools for everybody? What about the families that would not be able to afford to send their kids to school? Where is the alternative there? We know that a poorly educated population puts a severe strain on our system, so "can't afford it, tough" is no alternative.

The things governments do well are essential services - police, fire, courts, military, roads and infrastructure. These are things that government excels at. If you think government is good at so many of the other things you referred to, why not advocate government take-overs of all major sectors of the economy?

Health care isn't an essential service? We trust our government with controlling our military and killing thousands of Americans, yet we cannot trust them to help make health care accessible to more Americans? This is completely asinine.

I'm not saying that government is "good" at all of these things. As Kevin would say, this is you projecting these words upon me. I'm saying that there are services that the private sector is great at providing. There are services that government is better at providing. Health care is one of those services.

I mean, at this point the government spends what, $2.7 TRILLION per year, which I think amounts to about 33% of domestic income. If you want socialized medicine just tack a trillion or so more. But since we're going hog wild here, why not just take over more or less the entire economy?

According to the Wikipedia, it actually costs a country *less* to offer socialized/public health. Think about the strain of bankruptcies, emergency care provided to patients that can't afford it, malpractice crap, lawyer fees. Try to look at this objectively.

The State can take over everything. Every single person at the age of 18 should become an employee of the state or federal government. Then we can a SOCIALIST love-in.

There goes your knee.

The government can provide for our every want and need.

There it goes again...

Free government housing, cars, food, health care. Hookers too. Sounds GREAT! Apple Inc.? No, it should really be Apple USA, and then everyone can get subsidized iPhones.

And again... This has nothing to do with anything being discussed here. Please, think, rather than just emote and share with me your stream of consciousness.

You trust your government, don't you? They always make great decisions; they're always so efficient; they always have your best interest in mind and they're always looking out for you. That's what we need, an all powerful State. It will be so great to live in the US(SR) on that day, won't it comrade? Just don't piss off the secret police and you'll be in paradise.

Creeping Socialism, it spreads like cancer.

More reactionary, totally misguided crap that has nothing to do with anything...

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

We would be better off with our health care being managed by the government. We can't count on the populace becoming involved and giving a rat's ass, but at least the possibility exists.

You honestly think so, do you? Take the profit motive out by ceding to government and you suddenly, magically get great service, right? You're a fool. A damn fool.

If America does get conned into socialized medicine there will be a uproar when they actually get what they asked for. Of course, by then it will be too late.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You honestly think so, do you? Take the profit motive out by ceding to government and you suddenly, magically get great service, right? You're a fool. A damn fool.

If America does get conned into socialized medicine there will be a uproar when they actually get what they asked for. Of course, by then it will be too late.

Big Mac, please play ball with me or I'll just ignore you. Stop emoting and being reactionary, and actually debate this as intellectually as you can, okay?

I haven't said any of this, this is all you.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

He said we could take what works in England, what works in France, what works in Canada, etc, and then put it in a "melting pot" and come up with a system that's great because America is a great country. There you go, that's his solution - magic. We can magically make socialized medicine work so much better than the Europeans by a magical mixing process.

That’s funny I didn't know taking the best from various sources was defined as "magic". In that case I guess I have magic, I built a computer with many different parts selected by who made the best part and had the greatest idea. When I go to town there are even TVs and cars for sale with parts selected from may different countries.

To think all this time it was just how economics worked... and now to have and 'economist' himself tell me it's "magic".

by the way Moore's point was we shouldn’t just mimic other nations but need to think for our selves which isn't something republicans are used to.

If a superior system could be made by mixing and matching the best of a failed system, the Europeans would have done precisely that long ago!

The Europeans have been doing things to change for the better all along that's why their system is a success. What do you want them to do fix every problem by overturning the whole system over night?

Sounds like you believe in magic.

I mean, at this point the government spends what, $2.7 TRILLION per year, which I think amounts to about 33% of domestic income. If you want socialized medicine just tack a trillion or so more.

Most of that money is wasted for unnecessary military programs. And adding a trillion more would be what? 20-30% more taken out of my income? You’re right that will just bankrupt everybody

But since we're going hog wild here, why not just take over more or less the entire economy? The State can take over everything. Every single person at the age of 18 should become an employee of the state or federal government. Then we can have a SOCIALIST love-in. The government can provide for our every want and need. Free government housing, cars, food, health care. Hookers too. Sounds GREAT! Apple Inc.? No, it should really be Apple USA, and then everyone can get subsidized iPhones. You trust your government, don't you? They always make great decisions; they're always so efficient; they always have your best interest in mind and they're always looking out for you. That's what we need, an all powerful State. It will be so great to live in the US(SR) on that day, won't it comrade? Just don't piss off the secret police and you'll be in paradise.

Riiight got it.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

That's sad but irrelevant. If she lived in America and didn't have insurance she had no mechanism to absorb catastrophic risk which is a problem for the uninsured. If she lived in Canada, then, well, you can figure out the rest of that line. . .

What about the people who do have insurance but get cancer and can't afford to pay their insurance bills. Or the person with a back injury that exceeds their lifetime maximum.

Since your an insurance agent you should have a good answer for this.
So far I don't see how a system that refuses service to people is better than a system that has long wait times.

[gradient]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The things governments do well are essential services - police, fire, courts, military, roads and infrastructure.

Suddenly I understand where you are comming from... in a bad way. So you consider the military and road construction to be essential services but health care is not? Hmmmm..... would I rather have a highway to drive on or my brain tumour removed...... tough choice there.

[shinji]

I'd support socialized health care at least for uninsured children in the beginning and see how it goes, then do other groups in need, get experience with it, before moving on to a more widespread system.

Though I really think free health care is an empty campaign promise, no matter who says it. I don't believe the health insurance industry has much to worry about..

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

In his interview with Larry King, Moore conceded that socialized medicine in Europe has its problems, but he claimed to have a solution. He said we could take what works in England, what works in France, what works in Canada, etc, and then put it in a "melting pot" and come up with a system that's great because America is a great country. There you go, that's his solution - magic. We can magically make socialized medicine work so much better than the Europeans by a magical mixing process. . . .

Is he serious? Does he expect anyone to buy that? Is that what passes for critical thinking in that retard pig mind of his? Or is he just trying to dupe the gullible? If a superior system could be made by mixing and matching the best of a failed system, the Europeans would have done precisely that long ago!

Moore also answered a question about what kind of health care he provides his employees. He boasts that he gives them the gold package with full benefits. If that's the case then certainly he knows under socialized medicine his employees wouldn't receive the gold standard, they'd receive the lowest standard along with everyone else forced into the system. But since he's such a generous guy, and since he's making half of every ticket sale to that worthless piece of crap film of his, he can afford to pay for many more insurance plans. I think I'll send him my bills and see what kind of response I get.

Have you got a lot of medical bills? Gosh, that must be rough.

You try to slam Moore for making a profit on his movie...don't you see the irony? How much money are insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies making off people with medical bills? You can blow this no-gold-standard smoke screen all you want but deep down, I suspect you know it's b.s. Look north. Oh, do the Canadians have long lines? I have long lines! Do the Canadians not get the best choice in medicine? I don't get any choice either! It costs me a fortune, and here's the part that sucks: Unlike in Canada, there are folks who, unlike me, can't afford their medical bills.

You want medicine for profit in this country? Fine. Let them try to compete with a humane, socialized system that provides universal coverage. Then people who are determined to have a "gold standard" can keep paying through the nose for it and the rest of the country can just be healthy.

Let me just anticipate the "woe-is-me-my-taxes-would-pay-for-it" argument that will come next. Well, I'm pretty bitter about my taxes going to destroy our reputation abroad in the process of blowing up some 30,000 Iraqis. But I guess we'll both just have to live with it, won't we?

Or, I wish we both would. But in a country who's political system is controlled by corporations, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by gradient 

Suddenly I understand where you are comming from... in a bad way. So you consider the military and road construction to be essential services but health care is not? Hmmmm..... would I rather have a highway to drive on or my brain tumour removed...... tough choice there.

Yeah, he says the things government does well are "essential" services...What is more essential than LIFE!

It's the first one in the whole "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" bit. Good God, don't they hear themselves!

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by shinji 

I'd support socialized health care at least for uninsured children in the beginning and see how it goes, then do other groups in need, get experience with it, before moving on to a more widespread system.

Though I really think free health care is an empty campaign promise, no matter who says it. I don't believe the health insurance industry has much to worry about..

You're so right in so many ways.

[smacintush]

So, what has the history of the US Gov't's spending responsibility, waste management, decision making and efficiency shown that would give you the impression that letting them manage something as vastly important as healthcare that is such ginormous part of our economy is a GOOD F*CKIN' IDEA?

Yeah. sure, there ARE smaller programs and agencies that do a decent job, but a large and expensive undertaking like this? Please show me the evidence that they have what it takes to do this right?

We will go broke, or quality will go in the sh*tter, or BOTH.