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Charity worker Margaret Hassan murdered
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Joshua
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Nov 16, 2004, 04:04 PM
 
Iraq charity worker feared killed.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said: "Our experts have been examining a video which appeared to show that Margaret Hassan has been murdered, to establish whether it is genuine.

"As a result of our analysis, we have today had to inform Margaret Hassan's family that, sadly, we now believe that she has probably been murdered, although we cannot conclude this with complete certainty."

His written statement continued: "I want to express my deepest sympathy and condolences to Margaret's family. They have been through a month of the most terrible uncertainty and torment.

"To kidnap and kill anyone is inexcusable. But it is repugnant to commit such a crime against a woman who has spent most of her life working for the good of the people of Iraq."

Arab network Al-Jazeera reported "Al-Jazeera has obtained a video showing a masked militant shooting a blindfolded woman, who was referred to as Margaret Hassan, in the head using a handgun. Al-Jazeera decided to wait on reporting the news until it confirmed the authenticity of the tape."
The mutilated body of a "Western woman" was found in Fallujah yesterday, but I don't believe they've identified it yet.
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lil'babykitten
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Nov 16, 2004, 04:07 PM
 
Idiots.
     
The Oracle
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Nov 16, 2004, 10:42 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Idiots.
What? Sad they didn't exploit her misery more for your cause? Terminated her too soon?

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Spliffdaddy
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Nov 16, 2004, 11:06 PM
 
She was 'fair game' because she was a mercenary.

No different than a truck driver or contractor.

right?
     
Joshua  (op)
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Nov 16, 2004, 11:59 PM
 
The Guardian is reporting that the body found in Fallujah (which, according to other reports, had its limbs removed and face mutilated) wasn't Hassan. That means the other female hostage, Teresa Khalifa, is probably dead too.
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slow moe
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:25 AM
 
These "beheading and mutilation of hostages" stories distract from the American war crime stories that are going to help us win back the White House. Besides, it makes the insurgents look bad, and after all, they are no different than the minutemen of Lexington and Concord. </ Liberal Thought Bubble>
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aberdeenwriter
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Nov 17, 2004, 03:13 AM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Idiots.
One day you'll be forced to recognize the people leading the insurgency are NOT reasonable, moderate mainstream Muslims. The insurgency is being led by zealot, radical Islamic extremists who HATE your idea of moderation as much as they hate the West.

Should they win this war, the REAL people you are supporting will be made to bend to their will. If they refuse to submit, the horrors of this war we've already seen will look tame by comparison.

I haven't figured it out for certain yet, but I believe that Margaret Hassan's execution is a sign that the 'cancer' of radical Islam has grown beyond the blackness of one as evil as Zarqawi, who suggested Hassan should be released unharmed.
Consider these posts as my way of introducing you to yourself.

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aberdeenwriter
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Nov 17, 2004, 04:49 AM
 
Another Terrorist Atrocity_

Terrorists leave dismembered dead woman in streets of Fallujah:

http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com/

The body of a blonde-haired woman with her legs and arms cut off and throat slit was found lying on the street in Fallujah, a notorious enclave for hostage-takers, marines said.

"It is definitely a Caucasian woman with long blonde hair," said a military official, who cut open a cover that had been over the corpse.

The gruesome discovery was made as the marines moved through the south of Fallujah, hunting out the remaining die-hard rebels after a week of fierce fighting to regain control of the city. "It is a female... missing all four appendages, with a slashed throat and disembowled, she has been dead for a while but only in this location for a day or two," said Benjamin Finnell, a hospital apprentice with the Navy Corps, who had inspected the body.

An AFP photographer embedded with the marines said the woman was wearing a blue dress and her face was completely disfigured.

The marines said she appeared to have been on the street for about two days.

Sweeps of rubble-strewn neighbourhoods in Fallujah have already uncovered a grisly underworld of hostage slaughterhouses, prisons and torture chambers as well as the corpses of Iraqis who had been executed, marines say.

Surviving hostages have also been found, but only one has been a foreigner -- a Syrian driver who was abducted with two French journalists in August.

The article speculated the woman discovered may be Teresa Borcz, 54, a Pole who has blonde hair and who was one of two foreign-born aid workers abducted last month. That's right - the terrorists kidnapped and likely brutally murdered a civilian aid workers who had lived in Iraq for decades. God rest her soul.
--- Posted by patrick_@_11/14/2004 04:43:12 PM Comment (1)
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Spliffdaddy
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Nov 17, 2004, 07:52 AM
 
Not surprisingly, there are a few members that won't post in this thread.

Since it doesn't shed a good light on non-Americans.
     
Cody Dawg
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Nov 17, 2004, 09:01 AM
 
I'm glad this thread is here because if not, I'd have started it.

All I can say is that it makes me feel even better that we're over there getting those ba^stards.

All that hubbub about shooting "a poor innocent Iraqi" sort of merges with this one, because the truth is that those ba^stards that are shooting at and fighting against our American soldiers are the same exact people who are involved, tacitly or explicitly, with killing innocent people in this manner.

Killing Hassan, someone who did nothing but minister to the poor and sick for 30 years in Iraq, is absolutely one of the most evil and satanic things I've ever known.

Honestly, Muslims around the world should be ashamed that these people say that they are doing it in the name of their "religion."

Pffft.
     
ebuddy
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Nov 17, 2004, 09:36 AM
 
I heard. perseverence is needed. Keep fighting the good fight. They'll soon wane out just as the majority of the nazi regime. Hopefully, those that knew this nice lady will be inspired to join the Iraqi military and/or police.
ebuddy
     
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Nov 17, 2004, 09:37 AM
 
Yeah, what's that "religeon" all about anyway? I hear their God isn't even a white guy. People can be so stupid sometimes. I can't believe people are starting to get into wars over religeos differences. I for one never saw that coming.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 09:58 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Not surprisingly, there are a few members that won't post in this thread.
I will!

Ummm....killing is bad. Whether it comes from a crusader or a jihadist. Don't think you'll find too much contention there from anyone.

BTW, have you looked into Margaret Hassan's views on the war at all? Or the work she undertook in the refugee camps of Palestine (often referred to as terrorist breeding grounds by the less well-balanced minds of MacNN)?

Here's an excerpt from this morning's statement by her family:


"Our prayers and thoughts are with our dear brother-in-law Tahseen. Margaret was a friend of the Arab world, to people of all religions. Her love of the Arab people started in the 1960s when she worked in Palestinian camps, living with the poorest of the poor and supporting the refugees.

Those who are guilty of this atrocious act, and those who support them, have no excuses. Nobody can justify this. Margaret was against sanctions and the war. To commit such a crime against anyone is unforgivable."


Let's try to remember one thing - Margaret Hassan would be alive and well today were it not for this pointless occupation.
     
eklipse
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Nov 17, 2004, 10:07 AM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
...those ba^stards that are shooting at and fighting against our American soldiers are the same exact people who are involved, tacitly or explicitly, with killing innocent people in this manner.
Nonsense.
     
eklipse
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Nov 17, 2004, 10:08 AM
 
Originally posted by nath:
I will!

Ummm....killing is bad. Whether it comes from a crusader or a jihadist. Don't think you'll find too much contention there from anyone.

BTW, have you looked into Margaret Hassan's views on the war at all? Or the work she undertook in the refugee camps of Palestine (often referred to as terrorist breeding grounds by the less well-balanced minds of MacNN)?

Here's an excerpt from this morning's statement by her family:


"Our prayers and thoughts are with our dear brother-in-law Tahseen. Margaret was a friend of the Arab world, to people of all religions. Her love of the Arab people started in the 1960s when she worked in Palestinian camps, living with the poorest of the poor and supporting the refugees.

Those who are guilty of this atrocious act, and those who support them, have no excuses. Nobody can justify this. Margaret was against sanctions and the war. To commit such a crime against anyone is unforgivable."


Let's try to remember one thing - Margaret Hassan would be alive and well today were it not for this pointless occupation.
Well said.
     
Cody Dawg
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Nov 17, 2004, 10:27 AM
 
I have something to say.

I respect Muslims and Islam. My son's best friend is a Muslim. At least, he was raised as a Muslim. We love him very much. If he ever needed a home for some reason, we would take him in in a heartbeat.

I wanted to say that I respect Islam as a religion. Just like Hinduism. Judaism. Catholicism. All of the "isms."

But, I think that there should be a distinction made: The people committing these crimes are not Muslims. They are nothing. They are, as aberdeenwriter says, a cancer. A cancer that needs to be cut out.

Think of American soldiers as the knives that are going to cut the cancers out and rid the world of them forever.

For those of you who can even BEGIN to rationalize this by saying stupid trite things like, "If the United States were not occupying Iraq, Margaret Hassan would still be alive," you should be ASHAMED of yourselves.

Rationalizing her death in ANY way is disgusting. There is no excuse for Margaret Hassan's death.

Margaret Hassan was the Iraqi Mother Theresa.
     
dcolton
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Nov 17, 2004, 10:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I have something to say.

I respect Muslims and Islam. My son's best friend is a Muslim. At least, he was raised as a Muslim. We love him very much. If he ever needed a home for some reason, we would take him in in a heartbeat.

I wanted to say that I respect Islam as a religion. Just like Hinduism. Judaism. Catholicism. All of the "isms."

But, I think that there should be a distinction made: The people committing these crimes are not Muslims. They are nothing. They are, as aberdeenwriter says, a cancer. A cancer that needs to be cut out.

Think of American soldiers as the knives that are going to cut the cancers out and rid the world of them forever.

For those of you who can even BEGIN to rationalize this by saying stupid trite things like, "If the United States were not occupying Iraq, Margaret Hassan would still be alive," you should be ASHAMED of yourselves.

Rationalizing her death in ANY way is disgusting. There is no excuse for Margaret Hassan's death.

Margaret Hassan was the Iraqi Mother Theresa.
very well said.
     
lil'babykitten
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Nov 17, 2004, 10:44 AM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
For those of you who can even BEGIN to rationalize this by saying stupid trite things like, "If the United States were not occupying Iraq, Margaret Hassan would still be alive," you should be ASHAMED of yourselves.

Rationalizing her death in ANY way is disgusting. There is no excuse for Margaret Hassan's death.
I don't think you understand the point some have made. Saying that Margaret Hassan would still be alive were it not for the invasion is not an attempt to rationalize her death. Everyone is distressed about her death and it just highlights the immense shift that has occurred in Iraq since the invasion began.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 10:45 AM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I have something to say.

I respect Muslims and Islam. My son's best friend is a Muslim. At least, he was raised as a Muslim. We love him very much. If he ever needed a home for some reason, we would take him in in a heartbeat.

I wanted to say that I respect Islam as a religion. Just like Hinduism. Judaism. Catholicism. All of the "isms."
Amazingly, I agree.

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
But, I think that there should be a distinction made: The people committing these crimes are not Muslims. They are nothing. They are, as aberdeenwriter says, a cancer. A cancer that needs to be cut out.
Also, a cancer that only developed in the aftermath of the US-led invasion. As many warned it would.

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Think of American soldiers as the knives that are going to cut the cancers out and rid the world of them forever.
Wow. Problem is, (to use your revolting but rather accurate metaphor) cutting cancer out doesn't rid a body of it forever. I think medical science established this about a century ago. Cancer spreads. So does terrorism, and so will anti-American sentiment in Arabic states while you pursue this course of action.

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
For those of you who can even BEGIN to rationalize this by saying stupid trite things like, "If the United States were not occupying Iraq, Margaret Hassan would still be alive," you should be ASHAMED of yourselves.

Rationalizing her death in ANY way is disgusting. There is no excuse for Margaret Hassan's death.
I haven't tried to rationalise anything. I made the simple statement that she would be alive if not for the occupation. You may find that unpalatable, but it happens to be the case for a lot of people. I understand that she felt the same way.

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Margaret Hassan was the Iraqi Mother Theresa.
Sorry, who were you calling trite?
     
lil'babykitten
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Nov 17, 2004, 10:57 AM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
those ba^stards that are shooting at and fighting against our American soldiers are the same exact people who are involved, tacitly or explicitly, with killing innocent people in this manner.
I think you're wrong on this one. Margaret's kidnapper's didn't really make any demands not even for ransom. She wasn't a contract worker so her kidnapping couldn't be (distortedly) justified as for her being a collaborator with the occupying forces.

I don't think the regular Iraqi resistance movement was behind this. her killers were pure evil. They are criminals. Probably the ones who were let out of jail just after the invasion began.

Even Zarqawi, America's most wanted man in Iraq, called for her release.
     
dcolton
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Nov 17, 2004, 11:37 AM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I think you're wrong on this one. Margaret's kidnapper's didn't really make any demands not even for ransom. She wasn't a contract worker so her kidnapping couldn't be (distortedly) justified as for her being a collaborator with the occupying forces.

I don't think the regular Iraqi resistance movement was behind this. her killers were pure evil. They are criminals. Probably the ones who were let out of jail just after the invasion began.

Even Zarqawi, America's most wanted man in Iraq, called for her release.
hey blondie! I understand that this one can be tough for you to justify, but keep on trying.

So, what do we have here. There are the terrorists, who aren't freedom fighters and are abhorred by the muslim people (supposedly)

We have freedom fighters that die as martyrs when they blow themselves up.

Then there are the criminals who aren't terrorists or freedom fighters.

Seems that muslims find a way to redefine reality in an effort to avoid making a stance against terrorism and to legitimize behavior that uses their religion to promote murder. how convienient!
     
Cody Dawg
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Nov 17, 2004, 11:38 AM
 
LBK said:
Margaret's kidnapper's didn't really make any demands not even for ransom.
What are you talking about?

DUBAI (Reuters) - An unknown militant group holding Iraqi-British hostage Margaret Hassan in Iraq has threatened to turn her over to a group led by al Qaeda ally Abu Musab al-Zarqawi if Britain does not quit Iraq, Al Jazeera says.
Here is the article, but there are many more.

All along they've been making unreasonable demands about having Britain leave Iraq.

And another thing? All of you who try to say that this would not have happened if the U.S. or Great Britain or other countries were not there are seriously delusional. It STILL would have resulted in deaths. People who commit these atrocities do so whenever and wherever possible. If not in this manner, then they would have done it elsewhere at another time. They did not just wake up one morning and say, "Gee, now that the United States is here I am going to start kidnapping civilians and use a butcher knife to slowly sever their heads from their bodies. Hmm...will I use a gun because I want to be humane and blow someone's brains out while they beg for their life? Naw, I think I'll use a blunt butcher knife instead. Oh, and by the way, I'll videotape it and turn it over to Al-Jazeera because Al-Jazeera is nothing more than a propaganda-spewing organization."



No, those of you who think that this is the fault of the United States are misguided:

Hostages are a politician's nightmare. A haggard victim appears on video pleading for his life, while his relatives call on their leaders to cut a deal. Again and again they appear on television while an anxious nation waits and prays. The politicians' opponents, while careful not to endorse the terrorists' demands, seize on the tragedy to portray the government's policy as misguided, inept, and callous.
That's what all of you are: Politician's opponents. Read the entire article here. It's very good.

Don't tie the United States to the death of Margaret Hassan. That is entirely wrong and shows a lack of understanding.

Again, when you rationalize her death in ANY way, you are promoting the mindset and ideals of terrorists. Are any of you terrorists or terrorist sympathizers? Some of you begin to sound like sympathizers at the very least.

     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 11:57 AM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:

Don't tie the United States to the death of Margaret Hassan. That is entirely wrong and shows a lack of understanding.
Sadly, you are mistaken. She was one of the many indirect victims of US policy in Iraq. She seemed quite clear about what war would mean to a country in the condition that Iraq was in at the time of invasion:

Margaret Hassan warned MPs shortly before last year's war that Iraq could face a humanitarian catastrophe in the event of a conflict.

She said UN sanctions had left the Iraqi people in a worse situation than they had been at the end of the first Gulf War in 1991.

"The Iraqi people are already living through a terrible emergency," she told a House of Commons briefing.

"They do not have the resources to withstand an additional crisis brought about by military action."

Mrs Hassan chose to stay in Iraq during the war, and told the Newcastle Journal on the eve of the conflict that she was "sad" Britain was taking part.
Full article



edit: Just read your link and to be honest i have no idea what you are talking about. The article is about why hostage-takers should never be negotiated with. Fine. What's your point? I don't see anyone in this thread saying otherwise. The point, which you have failed to answer, is whether Margaret Hassan and many other innocent people would still be alive had invasion not occured.
     
slow moe
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:07 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
Let's try to remember one thing - Margaret Hassan would be alive and well today were it not for this pointless occupation.
OK, tell us what the point of Saddam's occupation was then, so we can compare the two.
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Joshua  (op)
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:08 PM
 
Even if this murder isn't directly supported (or carried out) by the mainline Iraqi insurgency, I'm not sure how you can deny that they're indirectly responsible. The insurgents have been working to develop an atmosphere of lawlessness in Iraq over the last few months: they deliberately target Iraqi police stations and training facilities; they've massacred Iraqi soldiers; they murder anyone they deem a "collaborator;" and they've forced the US to use troops to neutralize insurgent strongholds like Fallujah rather than focusing on day-to-day peacekeeping and rebuilding.

I don't understand why the people around here that profess the strongest commitment to the people of the Middle East support an insurgency that's absolutely contrary to the interests of those people. The US would like nothing better than to restore order, hold free elections, and get most of their troops the hell out of there as quickly as possible. The insurgents, on the other hand, seek a protracted struggle. The US isn't going to withdraw as long as that struggle continues, so all the insurgents can hope to achieve is violence and chaos for years to come.
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SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:11 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
The point, which you have failed to answer, is whether Margaret Hassan and many other innocent people would still be alive had invasion not occured.
That's a neat trick: blame all atrocities committed by the so-called insurgents on the US on the theory that but for the war, they wouldn't have gutted her. By doing so you shift all responsibility to Americans and leave the actual killers blame free.

If you want to play that "but for" game, how about remembering that but for the invasion, Saddam's torture chambers would still be operating? How many have the Coalition's troops saved?

We'll never know the answer to that because it is inherently counterfactual and speculative. So how about this: everyone is reponsible for their actions. If someone deliberatly commits and act of barbarism, they should bear the responsibility for it. No excuses.
     
slow moe
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Joshua:
I don't understand why the people around here that profess the strongest commitment to the people of the Middle East support an insurgency that's absolutely contrary to the interests of those people.
Because they believe in a World multipolar power structure, in which America is no more powerful and influential inside the arena of ideas, than say, Libya.
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:18 PM
 
That's a neat trick: blame all atrocities committed by the so-called insurgents on the US on the theory that but for the war, they wouldn't have gutted her. By doing so you shift all responsibility to Americans and leave the actual killers blame free.
Never said better by Simey.

     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:24 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
That's a neat trick: blame all atrocities committed by the so-called insurgents on the US on the theory that but for the war, they wouldn't have gutted her. By doing so you shift all responsibility to Americans and leave the actual killers blame free.

If you want to play that "but for" game, how about remembering that but for the invasion, Saddam's torture chambers would still be operating? How many have the Coalition's troops saved?

We'll never know the answer to that because it is inherently counterfactual and speculative. So how about this: everyone is reponsible for their actions. If someone deliberatly commits and act of barbarism, they should bear the responsibility for it. No excuses.
Another neat trick: assigning the same level of responsibility to an military superpower as to an individual.

She had worked safely in Iraq for 12 years and was married to an Iraqi. I think we can assume she had a life relatively free from gutting until the occupation. Have you actually read what she said to parliament? Do you think she didn't know what she was talking about?

The killers had the power to end Margaret Hassan's life; however the US war against Iraq has created the environment where such a death (and that of many others) is sadly inevitable.

But just for you Simey - as well as condemning the US policy which led to this brutal death, I condemn the criminals who committed the act. No excuses.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:25 PM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Never said better by Simey.

ha ha - yes, you do have a couple of people who can string a sentence together. Hold on to them!
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:27 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
Another neat trick: assigning the same level of responsibility to an military superpower as to an individual.

She had worked safely in Iraq for 12 years and was married to an Iraqi. I think we can assume she had a life relatively free from gutting until the occupation. Have you actually read what she said to parliament? Do you think she didn't know what she was talking about?

The killers had the power to end Margaret Hassan's life; however the US war against Iraq has created the environment where such a death (and that many others) is sadly inevitable.

But just for you Simey - as well as condemning the US policy which led to this brutal death, I condemn the criminals who committed the act. No excuses.
I'm not blaming her for her death. She's the victim!

The blame goes to those who actually killed her. There is no excuse for deliberately killing a helpless civilian fo rno other reason than to terrorise other civilians. None! It's an atrocity pure and simple.

It just amazes me that you would try to justify her killing in this way. "See what you made me do" is not a defense for murder. It's a tactic used by extortionists.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:30 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I'm not blaming her for her death. She's the victim!

I think you misread me, I meant nothing of the kind.



Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The blame goes to those who actually killed her. There is no excuse for deliberately killing a civilian. None!
The situation and many others like it would not have arisen if not for the occupation.

Again,

Have you actually read what she said to parliament? Do you think she didn't know what she was talking about?
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:33 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
Have you actually read what she said to parliament? Do you think she didn't know what she was talking about?
What she said to parliament has no bearing on whether or not her killers committed an atrocity. They held the knife. They are responsible for their own actions. Nobody is forcing them to kill civilians. Stop making excuses for murder.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:33 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
It just amazes me that you would try to justify her killing in this way.

Troll.


Sure sign of a rattled nutjob.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:35 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
Troll.


Sure sign of a rattled nutjob.
Not rattled. Appalled.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:36 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
They are responsible for their own actions.
And the US is responsible for the prisons being emptied, terrorists entering the country from outside to battle US forces in civilian areas and for failing to prevent general lawlessness in the immediate aftermath of invasion.

All or any of these factors have led directly to an environment where acts like this are being committed.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:39 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Not rattled. Appalled.
Please be very straightfoward and point out where I justified the killing of Margaret Hussan. Make sure you look the word up in the dictionary first. As I read it, justifying such a thing would mean providing a reason as to why the act was acceptable. I have provided a reason as to why it happened.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:46 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
And the US is responsible for the prisons being emptied, terrorists entering the country from outside to battle US forces in civilian areas and for failing to prevent general lawlessness in the immdiate aftermath of invasion.

All or any of these factors have led directly to an environment where acts like this are being committed.
Even assuming the environment was caused by the war, that environment is not a direct cause of every action that follows. The terrorists have free will. They are still the direct cause of the murder. What you are doing is at most citing indirect causes, and using the indirect environment to justify the direct cause -- which was human, deliberate, and hands on.

Moral culpability doesn't rest on indirect environmental factors. The man who slits a helpless woman's throat is responsible for his decision to slit a woman's throat. Nobody forced him to do it. He could have chosen not to do it.

Moreover, you forget that the insurgents have chosen their tactics. They have the option at any time of joining the political process. They don't have to kill anyone. It's their choice to do so. This war could have ended last April. They decided to keep killing.

Even if they feel compelled to kill American soldiers, that still does not justify killing civilians. They bear moral responsibility for that choice just as any murderer bears moral responsibility for his actions. "Society made me do it" is not a defense. You are attempting to shift their guilt to others and to pretend that somehow everything they have done is the inevitable consequence of actions they don't control, as if they are mere automatons without free will and the ability to choose right from wrong. By these means you attempt to justify their actions. It's a morally indefensible position to take. They, and they alone, are responsible for what they do.
( Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; Nov 17, 2004 at 12:51 PM. )
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 12:56 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
What you are doing is at most citing indirect causes, and using the indirect environment to justify the direct cause -- which was human, deliberate, and hands on.
Absolutely. The US is indirectly responsible for the death of Margaret Hassan, due to the current environment in Iraq, which is a result of their occupation. The murderers are directly responsible for the murder of Margaret Hassan. We agree.

Just to recap, your initial post was in response was to my statement

"The point, which you have failed to answer, is whether Margaret Hassan and many other innocent people would still be alive had invasion not occured"

I still say that in all probability she would, and you've failed to convince me otherwise, or even bother to try, really.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:04 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
This war could have ended last April.
ah, the clincher. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to, isn't it? The war.
     
budakhan mp
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:13 PM
 
It's really sad to hear such things, and watching the poor person cry on tv, so very tragic. This is what happens when you invade a country, destroy the very fabric of law & order, unlock all the jails in a country and let out every mad-person there is.

The streets of Iraq are full of every murderer, thief, rapist, drug pusher, criminal, that have all been let out of jails. Jails that have been smashed down, blown up, etc. Just imagine if this was the US, and we broke open every jail there was, let every loony out on the streets, combined with an occupying force oppressing people.

Madness, complete chaos. So very sad for people like Mrs Hassan.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:16 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
Absolutely. The US is indirectly responsible for the death of Margaret Hassan, due to the current environment in Iraq, which is a result of their occupation. The murderers are directly responsible for the murder of Margaret Hassan. We agree.

Just to recap, your initial post was in response was to my statement

"The point, which you have failed to answer, is whether Margaret Hassan and many other innocent people would still be alive had invasion not occured"

I still say that in all probability she would, and you've failed to convince me otherwise, or even bother to try, really.
We can speculate whether or not she would be alive but for the invasion. But what we know is she would be alive but for the decision by someone to end her life. Following a chain of events doesn't allow you to shift moral blame for something that was within the free will of an individual to do or not do.

You speculate that but for the invasion, certain subsequent events would not have happened. But the invasion wouldn't have happened but for other events that preceded it. But for Saddam Hussein's rule, there would have been no invasion. If the consequences of triggering events are what we use to attach moral blame for murder, then Saddam is the cause. Or maybe not. Saddam had parents. Perhaps they are to blame? Or how about Iraq's history that lead to Saddam's rule. How about the British Empire and the League of Nations that gave it Iraq to rule after WW-1. Or how about WW-1 itself? Did the bullet in Sarajevo that killed the Archduke of Austro-Hungary also kill Margaret Hassan? Or how about the Ottomans, shall we blame them?

All of these events, and many others, lead up to the "environment" in which her killers decided to slit her throat. But none of them caused them to do it. What caused them to murder her was their own free will. They do not deserve to be excused.
     
budakhan mp
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:19 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

All of these events, and many others, lead up to the "environment" in which her killers decided to slit her throat. But none of them caused them to do it. What caused them to murder her was their own free will. They do not deserve to be excused.
God, is there no lengths to which you will not go in trying to excuse every little piece of crap the US does in Iraq?
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:24 PM
 
Originally posted by budakhan mp:
God, is there no lengths to which you will not go in trying to excuse every little piece of crap the US does in Iraq?
We aren't talking about what the US does in Iraq. We are talking about what Hassan's murderers did in Iraq. You know, the people who actually killed her, actually stuck the knife in? Why are you trying to change the subject? (as if it isn't obvious).
     
budakhan mp
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:25 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
We aren't talking about what the US does in Iraq. We are talking about what Hassan's murderers did in Iraq.
Which are directly linked to each other, but you have to go and worm your way into thinknig they're not.

Jeez.
     
nath
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:27 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

You speculate that but for the invasion, certain subsequent events would not have happened. But the invasion wouldn't have happened but for other events that preceded it. But for Saddam Hussein's rule, there would have been no invasion.
Well as you know, I didn't support the occupation and neither did most people in the world. So that particular chain of blame ends there.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

Or how about the Ottomans, shall we blame them?
Don't be infantile. We're talking about events of the past year.

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

All of these events, and many others, lead up to the "environment" in which her killers decided to slit her throat. But none of them caused them to do it. What caused them to murder her was their own free will. They do not deserve to be excused.
Nobody's 'excused' them. You may wish to ignore the two occasions above where I have replied to your tiresome trolling by directly condemning the killers, but it's the desperate flailing of a drowning man.

I am attaching a fair share of the blame for her death on the author of the hellhole that is present day Iraq, US foreign policy.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:30 PM
 
Originally posted by budakhan mp:
Which are directly linked to each other, but you have to go and worm your way into thinknig they're not.

Jeez.
No, at best indirectly linked. The way that, say, the Pol Pot's genocide was indirectly related to the war in Vietnam, but directly related to the Khmer Rouge. You can't shift moral responsibility from direct causes to indirect factors. Not unless your real goal is simply to excuse the inexcusable.
     
Millennium
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:31 PM
 
Originally posted by budakhan mp:
God, is there no lengths to which you will not go in trying to excuse every little piece of crap the US does in Iraq?
No one is trying to excuse anything -good, bad, or otherwise- that the US is doing in Iraq. But they are utterly ireelevant to Hassan's murder. The murderers are the ones who chose to do this, knowing (as they must, by now) that it would not achieve the aims they claimed to seek. It takes a special kind of person to kill people, but anybody can not kill people. They chose this path. Let them face justice for it.

It is good to see that there is outrage among Iraqis. But the insurgents need to be unmasked among the general community of Islam for what they really are: false Muslims on a false jihad. They are not 'brothers', they are not fighting for 'Islam', and they are certainly not worth support.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:32 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
replied to your tiresome trolling by directly condemning the killers, but it's the desperate flailing of a drowning man.
Whenever someone resorts to these kinds of comments, it's a sure sign they have reached the bottom of their ability to justify their position.
     
Cody Dawg
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Nov 17, 2004, 01:32 PM
 
by nath
The US is indirectly responsible for the death of Margaret Hassan, due to the current environment in Iraq, which is a result of their occupation.
You're a terrorist sympathizer is what you are.

Are you posting from Fallujah or something?

     
 
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