[OAW]

So in Seattle there's a cop that's kicked up a lot of dust because he decided to punch a 17 year old girl in the face. Definitely not a good look.

Seattle cop punches teenage girl in face - watch the shocking video - mirror.co.uk

My 2 cents on this situation is as follows ....

1. Jaywalking? Like ... seriously? Jaywalking??!!! It's been my observation over the years that this type of charge (along with "Disturbing the Peace") is what police go after people with when they want to harass them but they really don't have anything substantive to arrest them for. I can't say that I know the circumstances surrounding whatever event (if any) was going on at the time. I can't say that this officer was just out to mess with the 4 men initially and then the 19 year old woman in black simply because he could. But jaywalking? Is trying to arrest 5 people for jaywalking the best use of a police officer's time? Seems like a little discretion is in order.

2. The 17 year old in the pink was trying to push the officer off her friend, the 19 year old in black, in an attempt to help her. Real stupid thing to do. Cop punched her in the face. While it's always disturbing to see a grown man hit a female like that, I can't say that it was police brutality. At least the 17 year old had sense enough to back off. The 19 year old was clearly struggling against the officer. So now she's facing a resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer charge .. in addition to jaywalking. Even more stupid thing to do.



OAW

[Snow-i]

Its unfortunate but it looks like ego overtook rationality on both sides of the argument here. The officer did not do anything terrible but perhaps a deep breath (which he didn't have time to make) would have resulted in a different outcome.

[tightsocks]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

The officer did not do anything terrible .

Putting a person in handcuffs and arresting them for jaywalking IS a terrible thing for the officer to have done.

The girl deserved to be rescued from that situation.

[Doofy]

If two antagonistic chicks were within range of grabbing my gun (possibly leading to a much uglier scene) then I'd have punched them too. The only thing I can fault this copper for is not hitting her hard enough, since she's not on her ass afterwards.

[tightsocks]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

The only thing I can fault this copper for is not hitting her hard enough, since she's not on her ass afterwards.

You don't fault him for *arresting* a person for jaywalking?

That is b.s. and you know it.

Why not just give her a ticket at most?

[turtle777]

The police should f*cking fight crime, not petty shit like jaywalking.

But then again, it seems like the government / cities has still too much resources, if they can afford to have top paid policemen enforcing crap like this.

-t

[Snow-i]

Its unfortunate that this video gives no context to the officers interest. Lets not make stuff up to paint him on way or another? Given what we saw, he didn't do anything wrong.

[Snow-i]

What if she walked out in front of traffic causing cars to have to slam on their brakes or swerve to avoid? What if she almost caused someone injury? Would the arrest be warranted then? Yes. Like i said previously, lets not make up the facts when we don't have em.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OAW 

1. Jaywalking? Like ... seriously? Jaywalking??!!! It's been my observation over the years that this type of charge (along with "Disturbing the Peace") is what police go after people with when they want to harass them but they really don't have anything substantive to arrest them for.

FWIW, some municipalities use it as a revenue stream, usually hand-in-hand with ticketing drivers for not stopping at crosswalks.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by tightsocks 

You don't fault him for *arresting* a person for jaywalking?

That is b.s. and you know it.

Why not just give her a ticket at most?

Here's what actually happened:

1) He tried to ticket her for jaywalking.
2) She gave him attitude and walked off.
3) He asked her to stop.
4) More attitude.
etc., etc. until cop's patience runs out.
5) He arrests her so he can give her the ticket.
6) She resists arrest and starts struggling.
7) Start of video.

Don't ask me about "jaywalking" because I'll just end up laughing that "the land of the free" has such a crime on its books. But it's there. So accept your ticket and don't start pushing the guy with the gun.

[tightsocks]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

What if she walked out in front of traffic causing cars to have to slam on their brakes or swerve to avoid? What if she almost caused someone injury? Would the arrest be warranted then? Yes. Like i said previously, lets not make up the facts when we don't have em.

No it would not.
A ticket at most.

[Snow-i]

Fortunately thats not for you decide - there are legislative processes that determine that. The officer was doing his job. If you have a problem with the arrest, direct your outrage at the legislators NOT the officer.

[boy8cookie]

Are you serious?

[tightsocks]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Here's what actually happened:

1) He tried to ticket her for jaywalking.
2) She gave him attitude and walked off.
3) He asked her to stop.
4) More attitude.
etc., etc. until cop's patience runs out.
5) He arrests her so he can give her the ticket.
6) She resists arrest and starts struggling.
7) Start of video.

Don't ask me about "jaywalking" because I'll just end up laughing that "the land of the free" has such a crime on its books. But it's there. So accept your ticket and don't start pushing the guy with the gun.

Attitude and trying patience is not an arrestable offense.

[subego]

Originally Posted by tightsocks 

Attitude and trying patience is not an arrestable offense.

That depends upon whether the officer considers you to be obstructing justice or not.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by tightsocks 

Attitude and trying patience is not an arrestable offense.

No but jaywalking is. Best not to give attitude and try their patience when the decision is up to the officer? If she won't let him give her the ticket, what is he to do?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by tightsocks 

Attitude and trying patience is not an arrestable offense.

I don't know how it works over there, but over here if you refuse a ticket the plod can opt to detain you (and that's usually an overnight stay). I'm assuming that there's a similar mechanism in place over there or else everybody would just refuse their ticket, wouldn't they?

[tightsocks]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Fortunately thats not for you decide - there are legislative processes that determine that. The officer was doing his job. If you have a problem with the arrest, direct your outrage at the legislators NOT the officer.

I will direct my outrage at both the officer and the legislative process.

The laws are not as straight-forward as many would like to think.
The officers have broad discretion about when to take someone into custody or not. Even if there has been an infraction.

So, the fact that the legislature writes laws that are less than straight-forwrad and that don't give citizens or officers reasonable guidance about what to expect in specific circumstances is deserving of outrage.

And, the fact that officers take advantage of that discretion to use the powers of arrest in frivolous circumstance also deserves outrage.

[tightsocks]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

No but jaywalking is. Best not to give attitude and try their patience when the decision is up to the officer? If she won't let him give her the ticket, what is he to do?

Since the infraction was for jaywalking he should use his discretion and let it pass.

[Snow-i]

Oh, so just derelict his duty and let her go?

What kind of message does that send? Fight the cops and they'll let you go?

Thats not a very good precedent to set.

[Doc Juansinn]

Since people love to comment on events without knowing context and/or history, here's a fact for those who read other than the first and last posts; Seattle has a very low tolerance for jaywalking and has, for many years now, been issuing citations for those caught in the act by law enforcement.

Don't even bother bringing up the ages of the two females either. Unless the officer requested and received valid ID before the events recorded on video, he had no way of knowing exactly how old the females were. Anyway, does it make a difference how old they were? When the second female placed her hands on the officer in order to free his grip on her friend, she had just assaulted an officer. In the U.S.A. this will almost always be perceived as a threat to the officer's safety and he/she will react in that context.

Sadly, the video doesn't show what happened before the situation escalated, but it does show plenty of resistance by the first female, assault on the officer by the second female, plenty of attitude by both females, and an incredible amount of restraint (i.e. he could have body slammed the first female to the ground, and drawn his firearm after the second female assaulted him) by the officer.

[Doofy]

YouTube - Cartman On Maury

[Chongo]

This what can happen when ticketing a jaywalker
Police Officer Nicki James (Nick) Erfle, Phoenix Police Department

Police Officer Nicki James (Nick) Erfle
Phoenix Police Department
Arizona
End of Watch: Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Biographical Info
Age: 33
Tour of Duty: 8 years
Badge Number: 6994

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Tuesday, September 18, 2007
Weapon Used: Gun; Unknown type
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Officer Nick Erfle was shot after he and his partner approached three people for jaywalking and obstructing traffic on 24th Street, one block north of Thomas Road.

One man gave a fictitious name that had a misdemeanor warrant and as they attempted to take him into custody, the suspect drew a weapon and shot Officer Erfle in the face. He was rushed to Banner Good Samaritan Medical Center where he died from his injuries an hour later.

The suspect then carjacked a vehicle and took the driver hostage. About an hour later, an unmarked special assignments unit spotted a car and suspect matching the carjacked vehicle's description.

They began surveillance and managed to box in the vehicle at 27th Avenue and McDowell Road. The suspect pointed his gun at the hostage and he was shot and killed by an officer. The suspect was later identified as an illegal alien with a felony record. He had been deported in 2006 and illegally re-entered the country.

The driver of the vehicle was not injured. The two females who were with the suspect when he was initially stopped were taken into custody for questioning.

Officer Erfle had served with the Phoenix Police Department for 8 years. He is survived by his wife and two children.

[imitchellg5]

Seattle hates jaywalkers. A lot. If you jaywalk in Seattle, you're incredibly stupid, or a tourist.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Some people just haven't been taught how to interact with police officers, pure and simple. Screaming "Get the F off of me!" over and over and pushing and shoving a cop is pretty much -ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, WITH ANY COP IN THE WORLD- not a good idea and isn't going to end well! Period. Bottom line.

Looks to me like the cop didn't control the situation well (lack of training? backup?) but the conduct of both girls is just begging, pleading for a bad outcome.

Gee, you mean I can't push and shove a cop, scream obscenities at them, and expect to just go about my merry way? Really? Is this really a big revelation to some people?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

This what can happen when ticketing a jaywalker
Police Officer Nicki James (Nick) Erfle, Phoenix Police Department

Its time to ship em home. Close the borders, and keep this trash on the other side of the border. We have enough home-grown garbage that we don't need GOOD MEN such as this killed at the hands of illegal immigrants.

[GSixZero]

That girl obviously was being difficult, and I have no issue with her getting arrested detained, but I think it just shows how poorly that officer acted or how poorly he was trained. A grown male police officer should be able to detain a 17 year old girl without resorting to throwing punches.

And in other news...

Manny lectured by cop for jaywalking in Seattle
Seems that Boston slugger Manny Ramirez was leaving the ballpark, with headphones on trying to look inconspicuous and quickly get away from the crowds still leaving the stadium. He started to cross South Royal Brougham Way, against the signals of a traffic cop who was directing pedestrians. The police officer demanded that Ramirez open his wallet and show identification. He warned him that he could face a $500 fine and possible arrest for disobeying a police officer.

It became clear to those watching that the policeman had no idea who Ramirez was. He didn't ask for an autograph or anything, but did ask Ramirez if he'd attended the game. After the brief lecture, and no argument from Ramirez, the police officer let him go with no further trouble.

Link

[tightsocks]

Obviously, all jaywalkers are ex-cons just waiting to kill us all...
They must be stopped at all cost.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by tightsocks 

Attitude and trying patience is not an arrestable offense.

No, but refusing an appearance ticket is.

[tightsocks]

the police officer let him go with no further trouble.

According to Snow-i, this would be an example of a bad cop!

He let a law-breaker go free.
Isn't that setting a bad precedent?
He is derelict in his duty...!

[Laminar]

I would have bet anyone $1000 before opening this thread that the jaywalkers in question were black based on the thread starter alone.

[turtle777]

This is a lose-lose situation.

Although the cop was probably technically right in all he was doing, nothing good will come out of it.

Bottom line: police should stay away from stupid crap like fining jaywalkers.
Fight some real crime, and be done with it.

-t

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I would have bet anyone $1000 before opening this thread that the jaywalkers in question were black based on the thread starter alone.

That would have been a safe bet to make.

While OAW makes valid points about the poor behavior of both the jaywalkers and the cop, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been bothered to make this post if the two women in question were white.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I would have bet anyone $1000 before opening this thread that the jaywalkers in question were black based on the thread starter alone.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by tightsocks 

According to Snow-i, this would be an example of a bad cop!

He let a law-breaker go free.
Isn't that setting a bad precedent?
He is derelict in his duty...!

Uh, yes?

Thats what we pay them to do. You don't get to pick and choose which laws should be enforced or not, the legislators do. Thats why we elect them. Thats why we pay them. If you don't like them, you vote them out, and put someone in there that will effect the changes you want. You don't get to decide things like this, and your sense of entitlement to disregard the law and assault a police officer and then be let go in response just goes to show how naive you really must be.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

This is a lose-lose situation.

Although the cop was probably technically right in all he was doing, nothing good will come out of it.

Bottom line: police should stay away from stupid crap like fining jaywalkers.
Fight some real crime, and be done with it.

-t

Can't blame the cop on that one Turtle. He was doing his job. And though I somewhat agree with your sentiment, the law is there for a reason. Whether that reason is justified or not is irrelevant. The outrage towards the police here is troubling. Outrage here should go towards the people that made that law.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by tightsocks 

No it would not.
A ticket at most.

I've seen this before... dumbass thug-wannabes trying to be all cavalier about walking in traffic and taking their sweet time crossing busy throughways. If the cop tried to ticket her, but couldn't, he may have been in a position of having to apprehend her. That said, I generally think jaywalking is a bs call, but it has a place when the violation is blatant and obstructive.

BTW, it's not something you see enforced often for those of you worried about a more pervasive police-state problem.

[The Final Dakar]

From what I've read the road in question was a 50 mph zone. That coupled with everything else leads me to give the cop the benefit of the doubt.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Seattle hates jaywalkers. A lot. If you jaywalk in Seattle, you're incredibly stupid, or a tourist.</sarcasm>

OMG! I HATE how Seattle encourages jaywalking. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. You can obstruct driving here just by standing still on the sidewalk, because the cars all think you're about to cross and they slow down so you can do it. SO annoying.

[andi*pandi]

The girls were out of line. That 17 year old shoved the officer, and was taller than him, I can see why he wanted to shut it down quick.

[hyteckit]

Jaywalking crimes only applies to:

Blacks
Mexicans

[OAW]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

This is a lose-lose situation.

Although the cop was probably technically right in all he was doing, nothing good will come out of it.

Bottom line: police should stay away from stupid crap like fining jaywalkers.
Fight some real crime, and be done with it.

-t

OAW

[OAW]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Now that is hilarious!!!

OAW

[pooka]

I almost got my ass beat by cops as a result of jaywalking in San Diego (another forum poster can back this up). Notice I said result. I was very drunk and became argumentative. I think my exact reaction was something like "****in' jaywalking?? Are you ****in' kidding me... PIG?"

The difference between me and the girls? I'm willing to accept the consequences for my behavior. That and my hot-ass lady friend totally saved my ass. But not from the $240 citation.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Uh, yes?

Thats what we pay them to do. You don't get to pick and choose which laws should be enforced or not, the legislators do. Thats why we elect them. Thats why we pay them. If you don't like them, you vote them out, and put someone in there that will effect the changes you want. You don't get to decide things like this, and your sense of entitlement to disregard the law and assault a police officer and then be let go in response just goes to show how naive you really must be.

While this sounds great on paper the reality is that nearly every state has old and obsolete laws that are rarely, if ever, enforced that are still on the books. In the state of Washington ....

-- Women who sit on men’s laps on buses or trains without placing a pillow between them face an automatic six-month jail term.

-- It is illegal to carry a fishbowl or aquarium onto a bus because the sound of the water sloshing may disturb other passengers.

-- No person may walk about in public if he or she has the common cold.

-- It is mandatory for a motorist with criminal intentions to stop at the city limits and telephone the chief of police as he is entering the town.

-- It is illegal to pretend that one’s parents are rich.

-- You cannot buy meat of any kind on Sunday.

-- It is illegal to pretend that one’s parents are rich.

I submit that jaywalking comes perilously close to foolishness like this. It is true that it is the job of legislators to repeal things like this. But the reality is that these kind of things linger on the books for years if not decades. In the meantime, law enforcement utilizes its limited resources on more substantive issues. You know ... bigger fish to fry and all that jazz.

OAW

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

You don't get to pick and choose which laws should be enforced or not, the legislators do.

Actually, Cops *DO* get to decide whether to enforce laws. It's called "police discretion." And historically, police use their discretion to let white people off with a warning while throwing the book at minorities. They also tend to let women off light while coming down harder on men.

[pooka]

I suggest you get a group of white people together and have them jaywalk in Las Vegas, Seattle, San Diego, etc. Go back with a group of African Americans and possibly even hispanics. Report back on your findings.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Actually, Cops *don't* get to decide whether to enforce laws. "police discretion" allows for leeway within specific laws depending on circumstance. And with my biased history, police use their discretion to let white people off with a warning while throwing the book at minorities. They also tend to let women off light while coming down harder on men.

Fixed.

Oh, and I'm white, and I've never gotten a warning...just tickets (4 and none within the last 3 years). My minority friends get warnings all the time for much worse traffic infractions.

[hyteckit]

I never gotten a warning.

I've been pulled over 3 times. Once by a female office and other 2 times by a male officer.

Twice for speeding and once for failing to signal.

Deciding to fight one of the speeding tickets and ended up winning.

[hyteckit]

From the video, I think the police officer's actions were justified.

Ticket someone for jaywalking might be a little too much tough.

But resisting arrest and assaulting an officer is not a good idea.