[MacNNFamous]

Laminar knows everything

[subego]

12. Learn how to shorten their memes.

[Waragainstsleep]

You forgot the most important thing. They need to take control of education. This is how MAGA exists in the first place, because Republicans have commandeered education boards and bred generations of imbeciles.

[Spheric Harlot]

Tariffs and corporate taxation in an era where Biden was punished by voters for corporate price gouging masking as "inflation" sounds like a GREAT tactic.

[MacNNFamous]

Price gouging would be fixed by #8

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

Price gouging would be fixed by #8

No. If you increase corporate taxation, they increase prices to match the bottom line.

There is a LOT more taxflow into government, which is nice, but to expect corporations to relinquish profits without actual regulation (from Republicans? ) is hilariously naïve.

[christ]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

1. No women candidates. It shouldn't matter, but it does. Some dudes have tiny dicks, and are therefore threatened by women in power, so they won't take them seriously or vote for them.
2. Abandon "woke" issues like LBGT stuff. Don't actively discriminate against them, just don't talk this stuff when it represents less than 5% of the entire population. It's a wedge issue. Stay quiet, don't talk about it. All it does is drive away moderates, and reduces the time you can spend on your actual message
3. The only way to combat idiocy/hate from the MAGA crowd is by making fun of them. Not reason, not logic, not 'sound economic policy'. None of it matters. Those mouth breathers are too stupid to understand nuance, so they need to be made fun of. Bad. In my opinion, there is only one person for this job. Jon Stewart. He will eviscerate any right wing opponent, and make it hilarious. When everyone is laughing at you like you're a dumbshit, you feel bad. Nobody wants to feel like that. This is the key, they must have a candidate that isn't necessarily politically correct, but does ROAST THE FUCK out of MAGA. Go straight to the point. Question their masculinity, suggest they are gay, suggest they have a tiny penis. It's the only thing that works.
4. Focus on student loan forgiveness, AND how it is paid for. This will drive younger people to actually vote, if they have something to gain. And in order to fight the "tax payers pay for it", be very vocal that the costs will be nothing. The predatory studen loan companies that exist, will be purchased BY the government, so instead of the payments going to pay for extravagant vacations for the executives and gigantic bonuses, the payments will go towards the actual loan amount taken out. Ie, if someone borrows 50k, they pay 50k back. ZERO INTEREST. Make this a huge talking point. This isn't 'free money', it's paying back what you took out, without gold plating some finance bros 3rd lambo. And make it retroactive. If someone has already paid back 60k on their 50k loan and stil owes 25k, POOF, they don't pay shit. They already paid back what they took out.
5. TARIFFS. This is the only thing the orange clown has done that is good. "wahh but they'll just pass the cost onto the consumer" is a common retort, which is true. However, let's say you ahve two companies, A vs B. Both produce the same thing. One gets their shit made in china, because it's so cheap. Tariff the fuck out of them. Company B is producing things locally, which is expensive because we have OSHA and the EPA and whatnot. Domestic suppliers/manufacturing CANNOT compete with China/3rd world countries that do not have environmental/worker protection. It's impossible. So in order to level the playing field, tariffs MUST happen. The good thing is, yes, it will cost more, but it will also benefit more. As companies start investing in manufacturing here, more jobs will happen here, and the money that company generates will be spent on employees that live IN this country, and it will stop the outflow of money going to other countries.
6. Immigration. It has to be able to be discussed, without people being accused of being racists/bigots/etc. Since the middle class spending power is falling rapidly, immigration will be HALTED, completely, full stop, until the working class sees a significant improvement. We have a FINITE amount of housing and jobs in this country. Bringing more people in from other countries ONLY BENEFITS EMPLOYERS, not citizens. We can still sing koombayah and we're all the same and not be racists, but it's just basic supply and demand. We only have so many openings here, and a constant influx of new people actively hurts the working class.
7. Eliminate foreign real estate investments. Make it illegal. Reduce AirBnBs. Right now it is just so profitable for short term rentals, that it's destroying communities. Something needs to be done, and fast.
8. Increase taxation severely on corporate profit. SEVERELY. Right now pretty much every food company has had record profits for years, a bag of doritos is over $7, and it's just nuts. Tax the hell out of these fucks until prices come back down.
9. CEOs are overpaid. Federally limit the amount CEOs can make, but tie it into how much they pay their lowest wage employee. Figure out the ratio, I'm not that smart, but make it happen.
10. Increase the number of tax brackets, progressively higher and higher, with higher and higher tax rates. ACTIVELY SHOW THE TAX RATES IN AMERICAN HISTORY, and use words like "facts over feelings, bitch" when talking about it. Use their own words against them, and show that the best decades for the working class in America had extremely high tax rates on the rich, and in order to foster a similar economic climate, they will try similar economic policy.
11. Universal healthcare. Big one. Show how profitable current healthcare system is. Show the rich fucks in charge on your advertising. Show how much they make. Show families losing everything. Our current system is broken. We gotta try something new, and if it doesn't work out, we can try something else next, but right now what we have is broken.


Poof. MAGA is over.

I bet they won't do it though. Just more centrist bullshit and wrapping themselves in LBGT issues. >sigh<

That is MAGA.

[Laminar]

1. You automatically lose a certain percentage of voters, but you also activate others. What data shows the difference?

2. "Woke" issues started with conservative attacks on marginalized people since...forever ago. As soon as hating black people wasn't something conservatives could campaign on, they pivoted to gay people. And now that no one really has a beef with gay people anymore, it's trans people. The response only exists because of the attack. Go back to Hillary's campaign. She spent her entire campaign talking about the economy and jobs and all anybody talked about was her emails and Benghazi. It's not democrats starting these conversations, it's 95% of conservative outrage being based in the made-up culture war. If democrats stop talking about culture war issues, republicans don't stop talking about them and using them to activate people.

3. This is why they framed Al Franken.

4. This is just a bailout to the big banks. Instantly dead. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY narrative coupled with STEM SUPERIORITY narrative. Easy.

5. Stupidest shit ever. Tariffs do almost nothing except drive consumer prices through the roof, do some research. Trump's tariffs protected some jobs in a few industries, but at the cost of around $800,000 per job, and that $800,000 was paid for by American citizens. Remember how everyone is complaining about high prices and inflation and shit? Tariffs. Starting trade wars with our closest trading allies. Spiking prices and adding market instability.

6. 3 and 6 are at odds - "call people stupid when they're being stupid." "don't call racist ideas racist because it hurts people's feelings"

7. A source of low-wage workers helps keep consumer prices low. If you can't pay slavery wages to seasonal workers to harvest crops, farming costs spike. Those can't entirely be absorbed by reducing profit margins, prices have to go up. Likewise, most rural communities only have doctors because of J1 visas. Doctors with options absolutely don't want to go work in bumfuck nowhere, but dangle a green card in front of an immigrant and they'll do it. The knock-on effects of eliminating immigration are widespread.

8. How are corporate taxes tied to what the market will pay for Doritos?

9. This is one of those dumb Ron Paul-era Reddit ideas that doesn't make any real sense if you spend 8 seconds thinking about it.

10. Nobody gives a shit about the working class, least of all the working class. History has proven over and over again that a narrative about high taxes punishing the rich for their success is extremely effective, because every idiot American believes that they'll one day be a billionaire. Couple that with the "taxation is theft" and "the government is wasteful" narratives and no plan to raise taxes of any kind would win any support anywhere. Trump gave a permanent tax break to the extremely wealthy and a temporary tax break to the middle class that expired during Biden's term and he got to blame Biden for raising taxes on the middle class while passing a great for rich people, horrible for the US tax law.

11. Sounds like increased taxes and inefficient government spending to me...DEATH PANELS...FORCED ABORTIONS....FORCED SEX CHANGES....they already have the narratives in place to continue to kill any chance of this. Go back to #3: " Not reason, not logic, not 'sound economic policy'. None of it matters." Why do you keep strategizing using reason, logic, and sound economic policy when you believe none of it works?

tl;dr /r/im14andthisisreddit

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

1. No women candidates.

Non-sense. Had Niki Haley been the Republican nominee, I am sure she would have won even more decisively. Gender wasn't the issue.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

2. Abandon "woke" issues like LBGT stuff.

Woke topics are a red herring. Bashing minorities is literally the oldest play in the book, and it has manifested itself in e. g. violent anti-semitism and racism. It is convenient, because you are bashing a negligible share of the electorate, but serves as a distraction and scapegoats a minority for all of the problems. It plays into fears of the “other” for political gain.

Thing is that acceptance of LBGT in society at large has risen tremendously, and that is something that irks conservatives to no end. They are losing these fights. Ditto with abortion in most places.

The weaponization of trans people follows this playbook: this is not a big political problem to solve. There aren't thousands of prisoners who are waiting for their gender reassignment surgery, this morning I heard it was just 2 (not sure about the time period). It distracts voters from bread-and-butter topics such as health care where there is no simple solution. Excluding trans people from life is comparatively simple (and morally reprehensible).

It is part of the tactics that needs to be broken, and “abandoning ‘woke’ issues” means Democrats accept that they play on a battlefield chosen by Republicans.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

3. The only way to combat idiocy/hate from the MAGA crowd is by making fun of them.

Enough people have made fun of Trump, of die-hard MAGA people, and I don't think it did one inkling of good. Roasting and belittling them might just feel good to people who are opposed to them.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

5. TARIFFS.

Hmmm, I don't think tariffs are good for anyone, and they won't lead to a restoration of lots of jobs domestically in manufacturing (due to automation). There are a few issues behind tariffs we need to disentangle:

1. The treatment of China. For the longest time most developed nations believed that economic ties would lead to a desire amongst the Chinese population to become more free. That hasn't happened. Moreover, there was a belief China would eventually remove one-sided restrictions on businesses in China. That hasn't happened, and I think we should reciprocate more how China treats foreign (non-Chinese) investors. Tariffs are not the right instrument IMHO.

2. Diversification of manufacture of goods of strategic importance (e. g. chips) There is a good argument to be made for diversification. During Covid (and even now) there is a shortage of medical equipment and key medicines. The goal should not be to bring everything “back home”, this is a pipe dream, but to diversify — including having some production closer to or at home.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

6. Immigration. It has to be able to be discussed, without people being accused of being racists/bigots/etc. Since the middle class spending power is falling rapidly, immigration will be HALTED, completely, full stop, until the working class sees a significant improvement.

That's assuming that halting immigration will lead to an improved economic situation of the working class. I think this assumption is just false. Immigrants spur economic activity and, ultimately, growth. And the “native” population benefits from that, too.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

We have a FINITE amount of housing and jobs in this country.

This is a common complaint also in Europe, but IMHO a case of correlation ≠ causation. Rents in urban and suburban areas have increased dramatically (i. e. significantly above the rate of inflation) way before e. g. the refugee waves of 2015 and 2022. It is a problem of perception.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

8. Increase taxation severely on corporate profit. SEVERELY. Right now pretty much every food company has had record profits for years, a bag of doritos is over $7, and it's just nuts. Tax the hell out of these fucks until prices come back down.

I would agree with you here, just add that what matters is not the tax rate that is on the books, but the actual tax rates companies pay. Most companies use elaborate legal (and legally legal) constructions to avoid paying taxes. This has to be an international efforts.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

9. CEOs are overpaid. Federally limit the amount CEOs can make, but tie it into how much they pay their lowest wage employee. Figure out the ratio, I'm not that smart, but make it happen.

Compared to the pay of regular employees, C-suite execs have been paid a shirt ton. Moreover, CEOs and other top-level executives are also not punished for failure. If they eff up, many of them get golden parachutes. I am not sure that your proposal is legal, though.

They also tend not to get punished. E. g. Elon Musk has openly manipulated stocks and not gotten in trouble. A few decades ago, he would have had to sit out the election in sing-sing.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

10. Increase the number of tax brackets, progressively higher and higher, with higher and higher tax rates. ACTIVELY SHOW THE TAX RATES IN AMERICAN HISTORY, and use words like "facts over feelings, bitch" when talking about it.

I agree with you partially, and add that all types of incomes should be treated the same. It isn't, which means if you make the majority of your income from stocks, your tax rate is likely much lower than if you are a very successful doctor with your own clinic.

The continuous transfer of wealth from the middle class (the lower class doesn't have anything to their name to begin with) to the top 1 % or 0.1 % will eventually destabilize society.

The bit where I disagree with you is the “show them the numbers” approach. Not because I don't think this wouldn't be my preferred approach, it is, but because it hasn't worked. The majority of voters have rejected the actual economic indicators. They have forgotten about Covid and how Trump has mishandled the pandemic. They have forgotten that Democratic administrations had to do cleanup of the messes left by their Republican predecessors.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

11. Universal healthcare. Big one.

I think this will only happen if Republicans turn on the healthcare system. But the Democrats should adopt this and wait for Republicans to come to the right side of history. The health care system is the biggest reason why I would not consider moving to the US permanently with my family.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

MAGA is over.

If you look towards countries like Denmark, the center-left party curbed the influence of far right parties by adopting some key policies of the far right. That's the real danger IMHO.

[Thorzdad]

How many of you are certain there will even be a 2028 election?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

How many of you are certain there will even be a 2028 election?

I think it helps to look towards countries like Hungary, Poland, Turkey or Italy during the Berlusconi era: there, the incumbents have not abolished elections, but simply strongly tilted the entire playing field in their favor. I would expect Trump to use e. g. the lever of tariffs to get the business community in line. Jeff Bezos bowed his head even though he is one of the richest people on the planet. (Just before the election, Trump met with people from Blue Origin, Bezos' analog of Space X and the next day the WaPo announced it would endorse neither of the candidates. Coincidence?)

Overall, it'll be less bad than you expect in the short term, but probably worse than many people expect in the long term. The biggest loss will be in soft power. For many European nations such as Germany and non-European nations (Japan, South Korea, etc.) the partnership with America is one central tenet of foreign policy. Especially conservatives often build on top of this trans-Atlantic/trans-Pacific partnership. In their mind, this partnership was very beneficial: the US provided a significant share of defense, including nuclear deterrence. In exchange, those countries would broadly follow the US' lead in most areas, contribute monetarily as well as e. g. (in Germany's case) take in >1 million refugees. In Japan, the (arch conservative) Abe government was pretty miffed/surprised when Trump called them out for “not paying for the bases located in Japan” (when they would pay billions each year and deal with lots of local political troubles as many locals do not want an American base in their backyard).

Macron tried to convince Merkel to reform the EU and chart a more independent course for the EU. Merkel refused (which in the grand scheme of things was a mistake). Now the EU will have to do this. You can see glimpses of this: as a result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine (or escalation of their invasion), Poland went on a buying spree for new weapons. Their preferred partner is Korea, not the US. I expect that there will be quiet, but definite moves to make France the centerpiece of European nuclear deterrence.

[OreoCookie]

Let me add another thought: when George W. Bush was re-elected in 2004, this time with a public mandate, it was despite the lies regarding WMD having become public and liberals complaining about that. Trump-era conservatives by and large agree that going into Iraq and Afghanistan was a mistake. We were all around when American conservatives decried criticism as unpatriotic and necessary. And now they seem to have adopted the same stance as liberals back then.

[Thorzdad]

I think the biggest difference this time, though, is who will be in charge. The Bush admin was a competent crowd compared to the likes of who will be running the place in Trump’s second term. As much as republicans hated government back then, they weren’t inclined to kill it off.

This time, though, the playbook that will be used (Project 2025) has been out in the open for a long time, and it’s disastrous by any measure (except, maybe, if you’re a wealthy, white, straight, christian, male.) Remember, Trump doesn’t give a shit about anyone other than himself. So, he doesn’t really care what happens to the country as long as his pockets are full. As long as his people kiss his ass (and he gets his cut of any profit,) he will rubber-stamp any monstrous scheme congress and/or his cabinet and advisors dream up. Eliminate EPA? Done. IRS? Bye-bye. DOE? Dead. CDC? Dead. NOAA? No more.

Remember, unless the republicans outright nullify the constitution somehow, this will be Trump’s last term, so he will be set on bleeding the coffers dry. Term 2 will be an orgy of profiteering for him. SCOTUS has already decided a president can do pretty much whatever they want without fear of consequences. So, the gloves are completely off now.

The hell of it is, as a 60-something retiree, I am extremely fearful of what might be in store for my medicare and social security under T2. On the other hand, I seriously want the aged boomers who voted for this orange asshole to hurt, and hurt bad under this new regime. They deserve the worst that comes to them.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

And now they seem to have adopted the same stance as liberals back then.

You can see this on almost every issue. There is no consistency with conservatives except that the belief that viewpoints from ~20 years ago were correct. Of course, they don't have the self awareness to see their analogs from 20 years ago believed that the viewpoints from another 20 years prior were correct.

It was always funny when Tightpants would claim that he supported the last wave of feminism, but not this wave. Of course, he's missing that during the last wave of feminism there were masses of people saying they were "very supportive of women getting the right to vote or to work, but I'm not supposed to slap her ass? Bullshit."

It's why "Make America Great Again" so effectively boiled down how everyone feels - things used to be good, but I can't say exactly when or what, but they were definitely better before.

[andi*pandi]

^The golden glow of the 50s as depicted in Leave it to Beaver, without any reality in it.

I don't know how we come back from this. The judiciary, the local elections, etc. It's always harder to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Just today someone on facebook, in a thread about insulin, claimed that Trump was responsible for lower prescription prices and that Biden had nothing to do with it. Come on man. Completely different plans, and trump never even did his. Biden got that done. Why was no one talking about it? Misinformation.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by christ 

That is MAGA.

Lol:
- No women candidates
- "Anti-woke"
- Focus only on negative rhetoric, politics should devolve to primarily insults, burns, and gotchas
- Give free government money to only certain groups of people so they'll vote for you
- Stupid, damaging economic policy that sounds good to dumb people but doesn't work
- "CLOSE THE BORDERS"
- Stupid policies that think they're being tough on other countries but are completely oblivious to how things actually work

Literally Trump's entire platform. Does Rob know he's actually a Trump supporter?

[MacNNFamous]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

It is part of the tactics that needs to be broken, and “abandoning ‘woke’ issues” means Democrats accept that they play on a battlefield chosen by Republicans.

Correct. You need to appeal to the MAJORITY. And the majority are hetero, working class people. For too long the DNC has focused on LBGT issues as a major differentiator. I live in central WI, in a very red county. I know tons of Trump supporters. Basically none of them give a single shit if you're gay or bi or whatever, as long as you share their values of guns and freedom. If you make your entire personality the fact you're gay, they won't like you, correct. If you are an outdoorsman who hunts and fishes and happens to like dudes, most of them will not care and honestly I feel like a lot of them are hiding in the closet so they might be down, as long as it's on the down low.

But emphasizing issues and struggles which DO NOT RELATE to the majority does not win elections. One thing affects a very small amount of people, the other affects basically everyone. Focus on the important issues that bring us together and you will win elections. Focus on fringe, minority issues that create division and you will not.

[MacNNFamous]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Lol:
- No women candidates
- "Anti-woke"
- Focus only on negative rhetoric, politics should devolve to primarily insults, burns, and gotchas
- Give free government money to only certain groups of people so they'll vote for you
- Stupid, damaging economic policy that sounds good to dumb people but doesn't work
- "CLOSE THE BORDERS"
- Stupid policies that think they're being tough on other countries but are completely oblivious to how things actually work

Literally Trump's entire platform. Does Rob know he's actually a Trump supporter?

Yes, women keep losing. You want to bet your children's future on a candidate because her gender is historically different? Seems dumb given the track record.

No, not anti-woke. Just STFU. It's not an important thing to talk about. We already have laws in place that protect people from discrimination, so why are we still talking about it on a national level? EVERY large company has very clear HR policies about this shit, and you will get fired if you cross those lines.

No, not negative insults. Humor. Not "fuck you", more "lol bro you said this and now you're saying this, you're a joke", only actually funny.

No, not free government money. Take away the mountains of profit by student loan companies, make everything zero percent interest. Cancel their predatory loans, so that people can spend money on their local communities, build familes, etc. Getting rid of student loan payments WOULD help the economy, aka, it would benefit a larger amount of people vs a small few in charge of those shitbag companies.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't work. It could be graduated/phased in over a period of time. Companies with foresight could get ahead by planning ahead, or do nothing and milk the cheapest suppliers for a bit, but eventually they will be more expensive than domestic suppliers. We had a HUGE manufacturing base here, it was the envy of the entire world, and now it's all gone for the profit of a select few. It's bullshit. Bring it back!

Yeah. Temporarily. Explain the borders will be closed until we see an improvement in the working class spending power, or wages go up to match cost of living, I don't know. Figure it out.

[Spheric Harlot]

That you believe how a nation treats minorities and people whose rights are infringed on a daily basis only concerns the particular minorities involved says everything about why Tr*mp could win.

There is no United States of America. There is no „We the People“. There’s just 300 million „me“s, and the biggest, most pathetic „ME“ got elected.

[Waragainstsleep]

Do Republicans really still fall for the demonstrably wrong notion that Republican administrations are good for the economy? We had threads ages ago about how no Republican had achieved anything worthwhile in 70 years and I'm pretty sure there was one pointing that every Republican since Reagan has royally fucked the US economy and a Democrat has always had to fix it.
Trump inherited an economy on the up because Obama fixed it, then he trashed it and they think it's because of Covid and not Trump? The only man in history to bankrupt a casino. The Dems are clearly doing a horrible job of making this very clear trend apparent.
Do the conservatives actually care about the economy or is it another one of those things they claim to care about because it sounds more reputable than just being racist or pissing off liberals? Or just that they don't care if the country goes down the toilet as long as their tax rate is reduced?

I saw a clip of Mark Cuban claiming that Trump was responsible for global inflation because he pandered to Putin and OPEC so they could raise the price of oil. I forget the exact mechanism but it sounded plausible enough and Cuban certainly knows a lot more about literally anything than Trump ever will. So now that Biden has made the US energy independent, is Trump going to undo that so the US has to buy Putin's Russian oil again? Because one imagines thats going to push inflation up again. Without any need for his tariffs.

I'm hoping he does put 20% on British imports and it forces us to go back and rejoin the EU tbh. But then I'm also hoping that California, Oregon, Washington, Illinois, New York, the New England states and maybe bits of Wisconsin will get together, secede from the US and join Canada. Then watch Trumpistan implode without their tax revenues. I'm sure Colorado would love to join too but they are surrounded so it might be harder for them.
Perhaps most of all I'm hoping that Biden decides to go out with a bang, declare MAGA a terrorist organisation and bomb Mar-A-Lago back to the stone age with Trump, Bannon, their conservative judges, Nigel Farage, Elon Musk, Rick DeSantis, Ted Cruz, Mitch McConnell, MTG, Boebert, Alex Jones, that awful Matt Walsh guy, the entire Heritage Foundation and a bunch our Conservative party members all attending his victory party at the time.
He'd be totally immune if he did. Or he could step down to make Kamala Harris the 47th and first female POTUS and she could pardon him (and Hunter) just in case. That would be a nice christmas present to the world.

I don't like that I'm hoping for these things. I've just run out of patience with all the stupid assholes in the world.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

Yes, women keep losing. You want to bet your children's future on a candidate because her gender is historically different? Seems dumb given the track record.

I don't think Harris' gender was a big factor. Most other democracies have had women leaders (the UK has had three female (conservative) Prime Ministers, Germany has had Chancellor Merkel for 16 years, etc.) or women close to becoming leaders (Marie Le Penn fortunately did not become French Prime Minister).

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

No, not anti-woke. Just STFU.

The term woke was made prominent in the last few years by conservatives. Even German conservative influencers are using this term now even though it has never been used by anyone I know of in political discourse. Ditto for identity politics, it is only used as a cudgel when it suits the GOP. George W. Bush's pandering to the evangelicals was also a form of identity politics if you wish.

You are choosing to play by their rules, nothing more. Ditto for trans issues, the whole ruckus was initiated by conservatives who were suddenly afraid that their daughter might be molested by a trans kid while taking a pee. Or that their daughter might lose their scholarship. Did that ever happen? Was the problem ever big enough to justify this media outrage? No, sounds more like strategically manufactured controversy to me.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

No, not free government money. Take away the mountains of profit by student loan companies, make everything zero percent interest.

“Everybody gets a pony — and a blowjob.” — Chrisjen Avasarala

We can talk about student loan forgiveness and the like, but I think student loan forgiveness will not be an appealing issue to blue collar workers, they might see it as “More money for the others while I'm stuck here.”

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

We had a HUGE manufacturing base here, it was the envy of the entire world, and now it's all gone for the profit of a select few. It's bullshit. Bring it back!

Technology hasn't stood still, most manufacturing requires far less labor these days. Automation would be the only way to be competitive. That'd mean more jobs for people like you and I, the people who program the robots, but less blue collar work.

Take a step back and think about it all: in the long term, what issues have progressives been wrong about long-term?

- Gay marriage has broad support amongst the population.
- The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are considered a blunder of the order of Vietnam.
- Vaccines (and the tech behind them)
- Racial equality

I'd rather be right early and consistent more often than not.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

We had a HUGE manufacturing base here, it was the envy of the entire world, and now it's all gone for the profit of a select few. It's bullshit. Bring it back!

We also had HUGE union membership throughout the same period here. Manufacturing and the workers in the shops thrived during that period. Executives did really well, too. Sadly, the same blue collar crowd have long been brainwashed into believing unions are evil, even while knowing the advantages they bring to workers when it comes to pay, benefits, working conditions, safety, etc.

So, yeah, bring back manufacturing! But, if you don’t have unions to safeguard workers’ interests, what you’ll end up with is america as just another low-wage, low/no-benefits captive-labor camp (for anything other than the top-tier tech workers) just like china is today.

[Laminar]

Yikes.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

Yes, women keep losing. You want to bet your children's future on a candidate because her gender is historically different? Seems dumb given the track record.

No, but I don't exclude support for a candidate because of his or her gender. I don't want a female candidate so we can have a female president, I want a good candidate and in 2016 and 2024 the objectively most qualified candidates in the final race were women. That you think some majority are really aching for a female president just to get a female president shows how badly you've been taken by conservative narratives.

No, not anti-woke. Just STFU. It's not an important thing to talk about. We already have laws in place that protect people from discrimination, so why are we still talking about it on a national level? EVERY large company has very clear HR policies about this shit, and you will get fired if you cross those lines.

This is the funniest shit I've ever read, and the least true thing I've ever read. If it's not a very important thing to talk about, why did Trump bring up schools performing non-consensual gender reassignment surgeries at every rally he held? For like the third time - this isn't a topic that Democrats are pushing hard, this is a culture war narrative that conservatives have found useful for energizing their base. That you think it is anything else shows how badly you've been taken by conservative narratives.

I don't know.

Obviously.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

Correct. You need to appeal to the MAJORITY. And the majority are hetero, working class people.

The fact that you think everyone is a selfish shitbag like you is funny. The majority of hetero, working class people are completely fine with gay people being able to marry and live their lives. The conservative culture war spreading false propaganda of grooming and forced sex changes is what is driving the current obsession with LGBT issues. That you think it is anything else shows how badly you've been taken by conservative narratives.

I know tons of Trump supporters. Basically none of them give a single shit if you're gay or bi or whatever, as long as you share their values of guns and freedom. If you make your entire personality the fact you're gay, they won't like you, correct.

The lack of understanding of the precedent of this mindset in history is wild. What they say is, "You can do or be whatever you want, just don't throw it in my face." What they mean is, "I'm extremely fragile and threatened by anything different from my current safe space. Anyone that doesn't fit my narrow, white, conservative, fed-by-misinformation-and-lies upbringing MUST mask themselves or I will become emotionally dysregulated and throw a fit and maybe shoot you." This has been true throughout American history - slaves wanting freedom, women wanting the right to vote, immigrants from Ireland or Italy or anywhere else, civil rights, women's liberation, LGBT issues, BLM, all of it. The response is always, "I don't care what you are, just don't throw it in my face," but that response is dishonest. They DO care what you are, and they use their power (social, political, or physical) to ensure that the voices they don't like aren't heard. They are fine with the existence of other types of people, but only as long as those people maintain the current social order. Any attempt to disrupt that social order is met with extreme hostility. They are not practicing tolerance, they are holding society hostage.

But emphasizing issues and struggles which DO NOT RELATE to the majority does not win elections. One thing affects a very small amount of people, the other affects basically everyone. Focus on the important issues that bring us together and you will win elections. Focus on fringe, minority issues that create division and you will not.

You're absolutely 100% wrong. I guess I'll say this again, though I don't think you'll ever get it. In 2016 the thing Clinton talked about the very very very most was building the economy, ensuring good jobs for everyone. She specifically promised to raise taxes on rich people, while not raising taxes a penny on people earning under $250,000, and not adding to the national debt. That's ALL she talked about. Eliminating student loan debt. That sounds a whole lot like "focus on the important issues that bring us together."

What did Trump talk about? Build a wall to keep the immigrant rapists out. Benghazi. Hillary's emails. LGBT bathroom laws. That sounds an awful lot like "focus[ing] on fringe, minority issues that create division."

Rinse and repeat in 2024. The Dow is at an all time-high and experienced just as much growth under Biden as it did under Trump. The IRA, fed moves, and infrastructure investment pulled inflation inline (inflation that was triggered by Trump's trade wars, Trump injecting billions of dollars straight to the upper middle class, and corporate price gouging), and gas prices are back down to pre-Covid levels. By all accounts it was a very successful presidency, but somehow conservatives believe that America is suffering, that things are horrible, that Biden and the democrats have ruined America, that LGBT woke people are threatening our way of life, that Biden has some kind of "open border" policy that's letting millions of dangerous immigrants in...nothing they believe is true is actually true.

It is very very clear that using fringe issues that affect comparatively few people to appeal to all of your super open-minded Wisconsin buddies is an extremely effective campaign strategy - one that negates the need for you to have any kind of plan at all. How is Trump going to fix the cost of childcare? He has no plan, but he's going to do it. How is Trump going to end the war in Ukraine before he even becomes president? He has no plan, but he's going to do it. How is Trump going to replace Obamacare? He has no plan, but he's going to do it.

That you believe Democrats are the needlessly divisive ones shows just how badly you've been taken by conservative narratives.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

We had a HUGE manufacturing base here, it was the envy of the entire world, and now it's all gone for the profit of a select few. It's bullshit. Bring it back!

Explain the concept of "landed cost" without Googling it.

[MacNNFamous]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

That you believe how a nation treats minorities and people whose rights are infringed on a daily basis only concerns the particular minorities involved says everything about why Tr*mp could win. .

That's not what I said. I said focusing on issues that bring people together, instead of issues that divide people, is the way to win.

[MacNNFamous]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Do Republicans really still fall for the demonstrably wrong notion that Republican administrations are good for the economy? We had threads ages ago about how no Republican had achieved anything worthwhile in 70 years and I'm pretty sure there was one pointing that every Republican since Reagan has royally fucked the US economy and a Democrat has always had to fix it.

Yup, they're 1000% falling for it. A bag of doritos costs $7 now, and instead of being pissed at RECORD PROFITS, they big mad at Biden, because stupid. The really wild thing is gas is CHEAP af, especially adjusted for inflation from a decade or two ago. I paid $2.49 in Feb of 2024, earlier this year. I don't see how it could get much cheaper.

[MacNNFamous]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I don't think Harris' gender was a big factor. Most other democracies have had women leaders (the UK has had three female (conservative) Prime Ministers, Germany has had Chancellor Merkel for 16 years, etc.) or women close to becoming leaders (Marie Le Penn fortunately did not become French Prime Minister).

Those countries don't have the south/midwest full of uneducated sexist/racist retards.

The term woke was made prominent in the last few years by conservatives. Even German conservative influencers are using this term now even though it has never been used by anyone I know of in political discourse. Ditto for identity politics, it is only used as a cudgel when it suits the GOP. George W. Bush's pandering to the evangelicals was also a form of identity politics if you wish.

We can talk about student loan forgiveness and the like, but I think student loan forgiveness will not be an appealing issue to blue collar workers, they might see it as “More money for the others while I'm stuck here.”

Don't use the word forgiveness. Focus on 0% interest, because education benefits society. Focus "pay back what you took out, nothing more". I don't think any of those dudes will have a problem with that. When my loans were put on hold, I spent over $15,000 locally on trades and services. If my loans were active, I would not have done so.

Technology hasn't stood still, most manufacturing requires far less labor these days. Automation would be the only way to be competitive. That'd mean more jobs for people like you and I, the people who program the robots, but less blue collar work.

Eh, kind of. Any manufacturing also has tons of building/infrastructure demands, HVAC, electricians, etc etc etc. And if hte operation is large enough, there is still a large demand for prototyping which means CNC, 3d printing, and general machining, casting, on and on.

Take a step back and think about it all: in the long term, what issues have progressives been wrong about long-term?

Democrats aren't progressive. They are centrists. They don't want to push any actual progressive issues, or they would have not shot Bernie Sanders in the kneecaps, twice.

[MacNNFamous]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

We also had HUGE union membership throughout the same period here. Manufacturing and the workers in the shops thrived during that period. Executives did really well, too. Sadly, the same blue collar crowd have long been brainwashed into believing unions are evil, even while knowing the advantages they bring to workers when it comes to pay, benefits, working conditions, safety, etc.

So, yeah, bring back manufacturing! But, if you don’t have unions to safeguard workers’ interests, what you’ll end up with is america as just another low-wage, low/no-benefits captive-labor camp (for anything other than the top-tier tech workers) just like china is today.

That's whats weird man, I know a LOT of maga supporters.... who... also belong to unions. They do a lot of mental gymnastics, constantly, and I can't defend how dumb they look.

[MacNNFamous]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

No, but I don't exclude support for a candidate because of his or her gender. I don't want a female candidate so we can have a female president, I want a good candidate and in 2016 and 2024 the objectively most qualified candidates in the final race were women. That you think some majority are really aching for a female president just to get a female president shows how badly you've been taken by conservative narratives.

The first part of what you said is what most people with more than two functioning brain cells would say. But then you mentioned HRC being a better candidate than Bernie in 2016, which is laughable. Amongst my peer group, I saw military members, blue collar works sick of getting shit on, educated liberals suffering under student debt, old hippies, and people from all walks of life supporting Bernie. Then HRC's 'victory fund' purchased the debts of the DNC (which was in debt btw) to control it as her personal campaign vehicle, with Debbie Wasserman taking full orders from HRC. The entire campaign was sexist as fuck, and it was alllllllll about the fact she had a vagina instead of a dong. Even the slogan... "I'm with HER", focused on gender. She spent over 5 million on Correct the Record, an army of bots and trolls on social media ordered to mass downvote any comments and articles that supported Bernie, and accusing people of being sexist. Again, gender does not matter to me, but HRC was worse than Bernie in so many ways. She is a war hawk, she has a history of busting up unions and fucking over the working class, and pretty much defined the coastal elite that ignored the midwest/flyover states for decades. And when talking about this stuff, guess who INSTANTLY got accused of being a sexist, which was always mass upvoted by CTR shills?

Most of my hope for a better future was shattered in 2016. Wikileaks DNC emails got leaked, which proved that Debbie was working for HRC, even though she was supposed to be impartial. She was forced to resign, and then only a few days later, became campaign manager for HRC, with... wait for it... zero repercussions. Think about that. She was literally caught red handed rigging a primary, with no punishment. So they doubled down, got Donna Brazile to go all 'gurrrllll power' and leak the debate questions to HRC (which were softballs), and fuck over Bernie. She talks about this in her book, so this is not conjecture. Then the removal of polling places in areas that supported Bernie, the caucauses that pretty much ignored what the people wanted and pushed Hillary despite protest (nevada was really bad), list goes on and on and on, and end of the day, I lost most of my faith in America during this time period.

In my opinion, Trump being elected lands squarely on the shoulders of HRC, Debbie Wasserman, and Donna. All women, all more stoked about running a woman than running a good candidate that brought people together from all walks of life.

This is the funniest shit I've ever read, and the least true thing I've ever read. If it's not a very important thing to talk about, why did Trump bring up schools performing non-consensual gender reassignment surgeries at every rally he held? For like the third time - this isn't a topic that Democrats are pushing hard, this is a culture war narrative that conservatives have found useful for energizing their base. That you think it is anything else shows how badly you've been taken by conservative narratives.

To be honest I didn't really listen to either, I was already going to vote against MAGA so it was a waste of my time. If you're saying they didn't touch on it at all, fine, but they should distance themselves from it. The pride flags, all of it. Just leave it alone. We already have laws protecting people based on discrimination of such stuff, continuing to be visually present around all this stuff just creates division, because end of the day, it does not affect most people, and most people are struggling with housing/healthcare/student debt/groceries, etc.

The fact that you think everyone is a selfish shitbag like you is funny. The majority of hetero, working class people are completely fine with gay people being able to marry and live their lives. The conservative culture war spreading false propaganda of grooming and forced sex changes is what is driving the current obsession with LGBT issues. That you think it is anything else shows how badly you've been taken by conservative narratives.

I agree with you man. But the majority of conservatives ALSO don't give a shit about gay people living their lives. Yes, MAGA was pushing trans kids surgery stuff, because that actually causes division, whether it is a reality or not. That is their goal, division.

The lack of understanding of the precedent of this mindset in history is wild. What they say is, "You can do or be whatever you want, just don't throw it in my face." What they mean is, "I'm extremely fragile and threatened by anything different from my current safe space. Anyone that doesn't fit my narrow, white, conservative, fed-by-misinformation-and-lies upbringing MUST mask themselves or I will become emotionally dysregulated and throw a fit and maybe shoot you." This has been true throughout American history - slaves wanting freedom, women wanting the right to vote, immigrants from Ireland or Italy or anywhere else, civil rights, women's liberation, LGBT issues, BLM, all of it. The response is always, "I don't care what you are, just don't throw it in my face," but that response is dishonest. They DO care what you are, and they use their power (social, political, or physical) to ensure that the voices they don't like aren't heard. They are fine with the existence of other types of people, but only as long as those people maintain the current social order. Any attempt to disrupt that social order is met with extreme hostility. They are not practicing tolerance, they are holding society hostage.

I disagree with you here. I know a lot of conservatives because of where I live, and some of them are even gay. I just don't see it as something most people care about. They don't want to see dudes making out in public parks, but I don't think they want to see hetero couples making out in public parks either. Most of them have told me 'whatever you want in the bedroom, fine, just shut up outside of it". Again, this is just what I have experienced, I don't know the data, but personally in my bubble anyway, most people don't seem to give a shit. They care more about abortion/guns than if you're gay or not.

You're absolutely 100% wrong. I guess I'll say this again, though I don't think you'll ever get it. In 2016 the thing Clinton talked about the very very very most was building the economy, ensuring good jobs for everyone. She specifically promised to raise taxes on rich people, while not raising taxes a penny on people earning under $250,000, and not adding to the national debt. That's ALL she talked about. Eliminating student loan debt. That sounds a whole lot like "focus on the important issues that bring us together."

Fuck her. See above.



Anyway... let's hear your ideas on how to defeat MAGA. I came up with ideas. Right now all you're doing is saying no to everything without coming up with any solutions yourself, which is a very republican way of thinking.

[subego]

In regards to Hillary being the most qualified, Laminar said most qualified candidate in the final race.

[Laminar]

Yeah, he didn't comprehend any of my post, but it's Rob, so the point isn't to change his mind, but make it even more obvious to everyone else that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

Anyway... let's hear your ideas on how to defeat MAGA. I came up with ideas. Right now all you're doing is saying no to everything without coming up with any solutions yourself, which is a very republican way of thinking.

Being wildly overconfident about terrible ideas that are completely disconnected from facts, science, and the way the world works is a very republican way of thinking.

[MacNNFamous]

So... no solutions. Dang we got a republican in here, folks

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

So... no solutions. Dang we got a republican in here, folks

Dude, you literally suggested the MAGA playbook up there.

Becoming MAGA yourself is not a "solution" to MAGA.

People telling you that without having an actual solution themselves, either, doesn't mean they're effete or politically in the Republican camp, it just means that you are full of shit.

[MacNNFamous]

No I didn't, I focused on issues which affect 99.9% of the population instead of 3-5%.

And yes, saying "nah that won't work" and coming up with zero ideas is republican AF.

[Spheric Harlot]

I‘ll say it again:

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

That you believe how a nation treats minorities and people whose rights are infringed on a daily basis only concerns the particular minorities involved says everything about why Tr*mp could win.

There is no United States of America. There is no „We the People“. There’s just 300 million „me“s, and the biggest, most pathetic „ME“ got elected.

[MacNNFamous]

Ok Spheric, what is your solution here?

[christ]

I think the nearest thing that you have to a "solution" is to let the President-elect and his administration run the country for four years, and then have another election. If MAGA is as bad as we suspect, the problem should really solve itself: it did in 2020.

If another election occurs. I can foresee a situation where the election is delayed until it can be guaranteed to be "fair" (... and somehow, even after four years of the coming administration, there will be sufficient "bad actors" and "deep state" for the "fairness" of the election to be in doubt.)

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by christ 

If another election occurs. I can foresee a situation where the election is delayed until it can be guaranteed to be "fair" (... and somehow, even after four years of the coming administration, there will be sufficient "bad actors" and "deep state" for the "fairness" of the election to be in doubt.)

I think if is the key operator, there. If the next four years are run according to the Project 2025 plan (which is now the incoming administration’s playbook,) the far-right will enjoy a near-permanent entrenchment of power, such that any future election, if actually held, would merely be a formality, akin to Putin’s “fair and free” elections.

The key to it all working and holding together, of course, lies in the hands of state governments, which the hard-right leadership have been busily turning into useful pawns for decades now.

[subego]

How exactly is that supposed to go? The ending democracy part.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

How exactly is that supposed to go? The ending democracy part.

Passing legislation allowing the hand-picking of electors and allows them to not verify election results for whatever reason, and stacking the courts to make sure it stays that way.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

The first part of what you said is what most people with more than two functioning brain cells would say. But then you mentioned HRC being a better candidate than Bernie in 2016, which is laughable. Amongst my peer group, I saw military members, blue collar works sick of getting shit on, educated liberals suffering under student debt, old hippies, and people from all walks of life supporting Bernie.

In isolation, criticizing what Clinton has said or what she stands for is fine. The problem is still that Trump was and still is being measured with a very, very different yardstick. Nobody cares who he shits on.

Trump can say that he wants to use the judicial system to go after his enemies and he wouldn’t mind if the Constitution wasn’t valid for a day. Any Democrat would have been raked over the coals, the campaign would be over. Why the difference?

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

She is a war hawk, she has a history of busting up unions and fucking over the working class, and pretty much defined the coastal elite that ignored the midwest/flyover states for decades. And when talking about this stuff, guess who INSTANTLY got accused of being a sexist, which was always mass upvoted by CTR shills?

Yes, Hillary Clinton is a hawk, but that’s precisely why the GOP had spent so much energy on “her emails”. Because if voters understood that she is a centrist in a lot of areas (just like her husband). That was my critique of her, but that got zero traction in the media.

In my mind, the Republicans were afraid of who Clinton really was: a hawkish centrist, an astute political operator, her husband has a track record of fiscal responsibility with a history of reaching across the aisle (and I think she shares Bill’s centrist views broadly) — i. e. someone they were afraid of. They were smart enough to not attack for not being hawkish enough, so instead “the emails”. That’s my read of the situation.

I would have loved to have a discussion on how hawkish she is, but part of that discussion would have been that she was less hawkish than Trump would like to see himself.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

In my opinion, Trump being elected lands squarely on the shoulders of HRC, Debbie Wasserman, and Donna. All women, all more stoked about running a woman than running a good candidate that brought people together from all walks of life.

Are we talking about 2016 or 2024? Hillary Clinton or Kamala Harris? I see none of the dynamics at play. Even when Trump attacked her by claiming that “Harris recently discovered she was black”, Harris didn’t go down that route even though the racism in that statement was obvious.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

We already have laws protecting people based on discrimination of such stuff, continuing to be visually present around all this stuff just creates division, because end of the day, it does not affect most people, and most people are struggling with housing/healthcare/student debt/groceries, etc.

Just like many other things that “create division” and we are supposed to accept them? I’m thinking of e. g. monuments to racists, people proudly displaying the Confederate (Battle) flag, etc.

The husband of a very close friend of mine was raised in a small Bavarian town of about 5,000 people. He seriously exclaimed that there were no gay people in his town (statistically speaking, exceedingly unlikely). By which he meant to say, he saw no gay people in his town. (His sister-in-law is married to a woman by the way.) If a teacher has a picture of her wife on her desk just like her colleagues would have a picture of their (heterosexual) partners on their desks, then she is not “pushing things down our throats”. If you see gay football players, gay people in commercials, it is just a reflection of society at large. If that makes you uncomfortable, that’s on you.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

agree with you man. But the majority of conservatives ALSO don't give a shit about gay people living their lives. Yes, MAGA was pushing trans kids surgery stuff, because that actually causes division, whether it is a reality or not. That is their goal, division.

Yes, so Democrats and the rest of society has to learn to change the rules of the game. We all know that once Trump is in power, he’ll claim the economy is great, never better — and all that thanks to him. The majority of American voters, for reasons I don’t understand, tend to believe these claims time and again. Why? We can go through the list of issues, housing, health care, etc. Republicans have no policies to address those. Ask Trump what his plan is to improve health care. Not even fix, just improve. Trump has a plan to lower the cost of food, and simultaneously increase the income of farmers. We all see those logical incompatibilities, but voters do not or do not care.

That is IMHO the issue to think about: why are both sides judged so differently, Republican candidates graded on a curve. Rather than think about what the Harris campaign or the Democrats did wrong, I’d like to understand why mistakes candidates and campaigns make are treated so differently. What would have happened to Obama if he made the same remarks about McCain when he ran against him than Trump? Why is nobody expecting policy proposals by Republicans, but takes those by Democrats apart with a fine-toothed comb? That’s why I think analyzing Harris’ campaign and how the Democrats got there is IMHO not the important thing to focus on.

Moreover, leveling the playing field would not just be beneficial to Democrats, it’d also help Republicans have decent candidates again. If the GOP had nominated Haley, I’m quite sure we wouldn’t be talking about a clear win, but a blowout.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

I disagree with you here. I know a lot of conservatives because of where I live, and some of them are even gay. I just don't see it as something most people care about. They don't want to see dudes making out in public parks, but I don't think they want to see hetero couples making out in public parks either.

I know a lot of conservatives, too. I have spent about 8 years in Japan, which is far more conservative on these matters (on average), lived in the Austrian countryside for a bit and am now in a weird place between metropolis and countryside. (I’m living in a village with about 1,200 inhabitants, and the German Maga is strong here. Although technically, it is a part of a bigger city.)

The “we don’t want to see it” is a common response everywhere, seeing “it” makes some people uncomfortable. Guess what, they get used to it. I’ve seen the change in attitude in various countries including e. g. Chile, the US, Germany, Japan and other places. It is always the same pattern. The first commercial with a gay couple is a big deal, then nobody (except for a small minority) cares.

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

Anyway... let's hear your ideas on how to defeat MAGA. I came up with ideas. Right now all you're doing is saying no to everything without coming up with any solutions yourself, which is a very republican way of thinking.

1. Understand the double standard between the two parties.
2. Look for strategies to put political discussions and campaigns on a level playing field: if you are unhappy with our policy proposals, let’s see yours. If you think our candidate is too old, let’s apply the same yardstick to your candidate.

Unless we know why the curve on which candidates and political ideas are graded have become so unhealthily steep, we cannot run effective campaigns. Oh, and I don’t want to become “them” to beat them.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

How exactly is that supposed to go? The ending democracy part.

Have a look at Hungary, Poland, Turkey and other countries like those where democratic freedoms have been eroded over time. On paper, these are still all democracies. But elections are no longer fair, the administrative state has become dependent on the person and party in power, state media have been brought into the fold, etc. I’d look there. The US is already on this path, especially when it comes to the federal judiciary.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Passing legislation allowing the hand-picking of electors and allows them to not verify election results for whatever reason, and stacking the courts to make sure it stays that way.

If a majority of voters in a state vote for a president, and the state legislature doesn’t honor it, aren’t those voters in a strong position to retaliate? They’re a majority.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

If a majority of voters in a state vote for a president, and the state legislature doesn’t honor it, aren’t those voters in a strong position to retaliate? They’re a majority.

How would they "retaliate"? Sue? Under a deadline for submitting a certified result to Washington?

Or are you talking about taking to the streets? Tr*mp has already clarified that he'd send in troops.

[subego]

Vote out the legislature.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by MacNNFamous 

Laminar knows everything

Congratulations.

You've baited with what I assume you actually think is a great strategy, and when you're told that you're just agreeing literally with exactly what you're pretending to be fighting against, except for the outright fascism, you switch out your own basis for this whole discussion for a post by some dude on Reddit who builds a whole strawman army out of not realising that Republicans and Democrats have ALWAYS agreed on 90% of the basics — and that you voice an opinion on some of the remaining 10% that aligns with Republican viewpoints, you may be told that, surprise, your opinion aligns with Republican viewpoints.

Not actually working with others through your initial argument, but just deleting it and making it an ad hominem about one of your debate opponents is such a colossal dick move, I'm pretty sure you don't even realise how sad it makes you look.

OTOH, Ca$h.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

Vote out the legislature.

Is this before or after the election is invalidated?

Your argument is that if a state government is structured such that a federal election can be invalidated or certification delayed to such an extent that the actual election is endangered, the solution is to just vote differently at the state level?

IOW, just vote out the people who've managed to make voting meaningless?

[subego]

Yes. A/K/A “deterrence”.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Yes. A/K/A “deterrence”.

Is the reason you have put deterrence in quotation marks because it doesn't actually work in practice? (Again, look to what happened in other countries that have slid into illiberal democracies.)