Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > iPhone 4 (Official Thread)

iPhone 4 (Official Thread) (Page 2)
Thread Tools
imitchellg5
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Washington + Colorado
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 9, 2010, 02:54 PM
 
According to the teardown from that Vietnam leak, it has 256 Mb of RAM onboard.
     
SSharon
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 9, 2010, 03:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by kcmac View Post
I still have the 2G iPhone so this will be a quantum leap. Can't wait.
Originally Posted by Krusty View Post
Same here. This thing has been phenomenal for nearly 3 years but its finally showing its age (battery is shot .. lasts 5 or 6 hours, part of the plastic at the speaker/mic is breaking away). The jump from the 2g to iPhone 4 will be amazing.
My original 8gb iphone is nearing 3 years old so I feel like I am due for an upgrade as well. Do either of you know how we will be charged for the data plan though? I was very happy with unlimited data + 200 texts for $20/month. I don't want to pay 50% more ($25 for 2gb +$5 for 200 texts) only to be capped at 2gb instead of unlimited. I would pay the full unsubsidized price for the phone if I got to keep unlimited data for $20/month.
AT&T iPhone 5S and 6; 13" MBP; MDD G4.
     
scaught
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: detroit,mi,usa
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 9, 2010, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
My original 8gb iphone is nearing 3 years old so I feel like I am due for an upgrade as well. Do either of you know how we will be charged for the data plan though? I was very happy with unlimited data + 200 texts for $20/month. I don't want to pay 50% more ($25 for 2gb +$5 for 200 texts) only to be capped at 2gb instead of unlimited. I would pay the full unsubsidized price for the phone if I got to keep unlimited data for $20/month.
Your situation is going to be a bit different because that $20 plan is the 2G/EDGE plan. I would guess that you're going to have to go into one of the new plans.
     
slugslugslug
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 9, 2010, 04:13 PM
 
Yeah, nobody got to keep the original EDGE plan for the 3G-capable models. And since you’ve never had the $30 unlimited plan, I can’t imagine you’ll be grandfathered in for it.

The texting plans have always been far more ridiculous than the smartphone data plan just announced. They should have included unlimited texting with data plans years ago.
     
JMan09
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Beaumont Texas
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 9, 2010, 07:29 PM
 
Yeah I would pay $30 for 2GB of data and unlimited texting.
32GB iPad 2 | 32GB iPhone 4 | 11' MacBook Air 1.6 i5, 4GB, 128GB SSD
     
boy8cookie
Mac Elite
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll let you know when I get there...
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 9, 2010, 08:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
My original 8gb iphone is nearing 3 years old so I feel like I am due for an upgrade as well. Do either of you know how we will be charged for the data plan though? I was very happy with unlimited data + 200 texts for $20/month. I don't want to pay 50% more ($25 for 2gb +$5 for 200 texts) only to be capped at 2gb instead of unlimited. I would pay the full unsubsidized price for the phone if I got to keep unlimited data for $20/month.
Even if you keep the new phone for 3 years, you wouldn't be saving money paying the full price and then paying less per month.

16GB phone with 2 year: 199+(30*36) = $1279
16GB phone with no plan: 599+(20*36) = $1319

Unless you're using more than 2GB/mo, but since you're still using a first gen iPhone, I doubt you are.
     
SSharon
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 9, 2010, 11:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by slugslugslug View Post
Yeah, nobody got to keep the original EDGE plan for the 3G-capable models. And since you’ve never had the $30 unlimited plan, I can’t imagine you’ll be grandfathered in for it.

The texting plans have always been far more ridiculous than the smartphone data plan just announced. They should have included unlimited texting with data plans years ago.
Nobody got to keep it because the data plan went up to compensate for the subsidized price of the phone. In other words, the increase from $20 to $30 has nothing to do with the increased speeds of the 3G network and everything to do with the fact that the original iphone wasn't subsidized and the 3G was.
(and so yes, I do expect to be grandfathered into some version of an unlimited plan. If not I will seriously consider waiting out the next 6-12 months until the Verizaphone.)

Originally Posted by boy8cookie View Post
Even if you keep the new phone for 3 years, you wouldn't be saving money paying the full price and then paying less per month.

16GB phone with 2 year: 199+(30*36) = $1279
16GB phone with no plan: 599+(20*36) = $1319

Unless you're using more than 2GB/mo, but since you're still using a first gen iPhone, I doubt you are.
I haven't used that much data in the past 3 months since I switched jobs and I've been temporarily living with my in laws who have zero ATT reception, but you can see that I used to use between 400 and 450mb of data per month. Once I move to my new apartment and get netflix and have the increased download speeds of the 3G network I easily see my data usage doubling if not more.

The three year difference isn't huge, but only if I stay under 2gb which I doubt will be the case once video calls are allowed over 3G or if I jailbreak the phone to tether it. Another unwelcome change is that I pay 5 cents per message when I go over my 200, but the new $5 for 200 messages plan charges you 10 cents per message.

AT&T iPhone 5S and 6; 13" MBP; MDD G4.
     
ajprice
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 10, 2010, 07:22 AM
 
iPhone 4 in the UK goes on 3, makes it a full set of UK carrier iPhones along with O2, Vodafone, Orange and T Mobile - iPhone 4 coming to Three UK, pre-orders starting June 15 -- Engadget

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
-Q-
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 10, 2010, 07:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by ajprice View Post
iPhone 4 in the UK goes on 3, makes it a full set of UK carrier iPhones along with O2, Vodafone, Orange and T Mobile - iPhone 4 coming to Three UK, pre-orders starting June 15 -- Engadget
Ah, carrier choice. I can only dream.
     
slugslugslug
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 11, 2010, 11:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Nobody got to keep it because the data plan went up to compensate for the subsidized price of the phone. In other words, the increase from $20 to $30 has nothing to do with the increased speeds of the 3G network and everything to do with the fact that the original iphone wasn't subsidized and the 3G was.

(and so yes, I do expect to be grandfathered into some version of an unlimited plan…)
I wasn’t trying to say anything about why the plan changed from the original model to the 3G, though I can see how you would interpret it that way. I was just saying that the plan you have is only because you still have the original iPhone. Since nobody with any subsequent model has gotten to keep that plan, you wouldn’t either if you switched to any other iPhone. So your hope for keeping $20/unlimited is a non-starter, just as it was before the plan change.

And as I remember it, when they said people who already have unlimited plans can keep them, they only actually mentioned the $30 plan. But you don’t already have that plan, so you can’t actually keep it.

It may be possible that they’ll let you have $30/unlimited, depending on how much of a fuss you kick up, how long you’ve been with them, etc. But I’d be shocked if they offer the option to any EDGE iPhone users who don’t explicitly ask for it.

Another unwelcome change is that I pay 5 cents per message when I go over my 200, but the new $5 for 200 messages plan charges you 10 cents per message.
Ugh, I don’t think I ever noticed this difference because I so rarely hit the 200 limit, but damn, SMS prices are such a scam. Even if they don’t give us dirt-cheap unlimited, the packages should work more like minutes: rolling over and shared across lines on family plans. They’d probably still profit charging 10¢ for 200 messages.
     
anthology123
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 02:49 AM
 
No one yet has answered one question: Will the iPhone 4 be upgradeable from 3G to 4G when 4G phone and data network comes out? There is nothing in the Apple specs that say this will happen. Is it possible the next free iOS upgrade will make it 4G compatible and that is all there is to it? Of course, it will still be able to use the 3G network where the 4G is not available, but will that happen, or do you need to buy a iPhone 4G when it comes out?
     
ajprice
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 03:02 AM
 
When are 4G networks going to be widely available in all the major countries/markets, realistically? Apple are more likely to make the 2011 iPhone for 4G networks when there is more coverage. At this time isn't 3G is still the major network band?

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
anthology123
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 03:36 AM
 
I don't think you understand my question: When 4G happens (whenever it does, 2011, 2012 2013, who knows) Will this iPhone 4 model be able to take advantage of that in the future with a simple iOS upgrade? Or is this phone forever 3G only, and you need to get a newer model that has 4G.
The reason I am asking is a friend has asked more than one ATT store rep at different locations and they say this new iPhone 4 can be upgraded with a free OS upgrade to use 4G networks when they are there. Is that true or is are they just lying?
     
Andy8
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 03:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by anthology123 View Post
I don't think you understand my question: When 4G happens (whenever it does, 2011, 2012 2013, who knows) Will this iPhone 4 model be able to take advantage of that in the future with a simple iOS upgrade? Or is this phone forever 3G only, and you need to get a newer model that has 4G.
The reason I am asking is a friend has asked more than one ATT store rep at different locations and they say this new iPhone 4 can be upgraded with a free OS upgrade to use 4G networks when they are there. Is that true or is are they just lying?
Its like saying can my original iPhone (2G) use a 3G network now.

It is a hardware issue, not software.
     
AKcrab
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 03:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Andy8 View Post
It is a hardware issue, not software.
I'm pretty sure I've seen the same info somewhere... But if someone could provide a link with some proof, that would be great.

There are 4G phones out there right now. Is it a different chipset?
     
anthology123
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 11:29 AM
 
Thanks for clarifying, but are you certain there is no 4G LTE chipset in the iPhone 4 that they only have to update the iOS to activate? There is only a 3G chipset in there?
I am not making this up, the ATT Store reps are telling people that the iPhone 4 will work on the future 4G networks without any hardware changes.
     
jokell82
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 02:51 PM
 
AT&T reps lie to sell phones (just like every other carrier). The iPhone 4 will NOT be 4g compatible. And honestly, who cares? Has AT&T even started building 4g towers? We're talking years before they have any 4g coverage, and by that time you'll want a new phone anyway.

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 03:10 PM
 
Doesn't really matter IMO anyway. A good quality 3G network shouldn't be an issue for the vast majority of usage. 2G is too slow, but 3G is more than fast enough for mobile consumption for now and the immediate future for the vast majority of the population.

However, that doesn't mean AT&T will have a "good quality 3G network" sufficient for the iPhone 4.

To put it another way, I'd rather my carrier shore up and max out its 3G support than suddenly jump to a half-assed implementation of 4G just for bragging rights.
     
imitchellg5
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Washington + Colorado
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by anthology123 View Post
Thanks for clarifying, but are you certain there is no 4G LTE chipset in the iPhone 4 that they only have to update the iOS to activate? There is only a 3G chipset in there?
I am not making this up, the ATT Store reps are telling people that the iPhone 4 will work on the future 4G networks without any hardware changes.
Believe me, if this could handle 4G, Apple would be saying so, and it would have been found in the teardowns.
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 07:22 PM
 
^^ What he said.

-t
     
scaught
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: detroit,mi,usa
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 12, 2010, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by anthology123 View Post
I am not making this up, the ATT Store reps are telling people that the iPhone 4 will work on the future 4G networks without any hardware changes.
Oh ya? I met a guy the other night who SWORE to me he was jesus christ.
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 13, 2010, 12:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by anthology123 View Post
I am not making this up, the ATT Store reps are telling people that the iPhone 4 will work on the future 4G networks without any hardware changes.
Is that the same AT&T employees that claim Verizon is eating babies ?

-t
     
imitchellg5
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Washington + Colorado
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 13, 2010, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Is that the same AT&T employees that claim Verizon is eating babies ?

-t
Well, Sprint killed my family.
     
osiris
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Isle of Manhattan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 14, 2010, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
To put it another way, I'd rather my carrier shore up and max out its 3G support than suddenly jump to a half-assed implementation of 4G just for bragging rights.
lol
AT&T could easily screw up both: they'll never shore up 3G and yes, they will jump (blindly) to a half-assed implementation of 4G.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
imitchellg5
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Washington + Colorado
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 14, 2010, 06:30 PM
 
AT&T is actually taking their time on 4G. Insiders say that AT&T really wants to get it right. Personally, I've heard that AT&T has already installed LTE in some locations (at least Seattle), but the earliest that it'll be turned on is late this year or early 2011.
     
jokell82
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 08:06 AM
 
Just got through all the steps of the pre-order, picked to have it shipped to me, and they take the store down. Boo.

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
-Q-
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 08:09 AM
 
Same thing has happened to me twice now.
     
Andrew88088
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 08:25 AM
 
I wish there was some indication of when the white one will be available. I had my mind made up to get white, but now I think I may just get black because I don't want to wait. Haha
     
CorpITGuy
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:12 AM
 
I've been trying for nearly an hour and a half to get in my pre-order. Store keeps crashing (AT&T/Apple both have problems).
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." - Winston Churchill

MacBook Pro 17" 2.33 GHz - (mine)
MacBook Pro 15" 1.83 GHz - (wife)
Pair of iPhones
     
Andrew88088
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:15 AM
 
I've been at it for about 2 1/2 hours. Haha
     
SSharon
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:30 AM
 
Still doesn't work for me. Even the newly available Apple Store application is down for updates!
AT&T iPhone 5S and 6; 13" MBP; MDD G4.
     
jokell82
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:30 AM
 
Ugh. Got in trouble during a meeting today for trying to order this damn phone. Come on Apple, fix your shit!

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
Angelo78
Forum Regular
Join Date: Nov 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:38 AM
 
I'm having the same troubles as many of you too. I get to the screen after entering your cell number, zip code and last four of your social security number but it gives me errors every time.
     
scaught
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: detroit,mi,usa
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Angelo78 View Post
I'm having the same troubles as many of you too. I get to the screen after entering your cell number, zip code and last four of your social security number but it gives me errors every time.
I got past that once, where it says "you're eligible for your phone at this price". ONCE.
     
SSharon
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Angelo78 View Post
I'm having the same troubles as many of you too. I get to the screen after entering your cell number, zip code and last four of your social security number but it gives me errors every time.
I want to pull a Steve Jobs and ask all of you to stop trying to order so that my order can go through.
In reality I'm just giving up for now, because I know that I will only be doubly annoyed if I get to one of the last steps and then it errors out on me again.
AT&T iPhone 5S and 6; 13" MBP; MDD G4.
     
jokell82
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:51 AM
 
Yeah, I've gotten to the screen where I select how I want to have it delivered a few times. Every time I get some random error.

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
kman42
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Francisco
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:53 AM
 
Major meltdown. And now that we westcoasters are waking up it will just get worse.

And why can't we get more than one phone? Even on the same plan?
     
SSharon
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:56 AM
 
Does anyone recall if you were always redirected to buyiphone.apple.com during the shopping process? Did Apple set up a new server and still have it not capable of preorders?
AT&T iPhone 5S and 6; 13" MBP; MDD G4.
     
scaught
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: detroit,mi,usa
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 09:57 AM
 
but heyyyy. how about that new mac mini? hmdi port? hottt.
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:06 AM
 
I'ts like buying a Bag Of Crap from Woot!.

-t
     
jokell82
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I'ts like buying a Bag Of Crap from Woot!.

-t
Only more difficult - I've actually gotten through on a BOC before.

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
SSharon
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by scaught View Post
but heyyyy. how about that new mac mini? hmdi port? hottt.
I think the mini is getting too expensive. I would have liked for it to converge down in the line with the apple TV. Maybe I'm just bitter because the mini display port on my MBP doesn't carry audio over HDMI.
AT&T iPhone 5S and 6; 13" MBP; MDD G4.
     
scaught
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: detroit,mi,usa
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:09 AM
 
hmm. I added a black bumper to my cart on the apple store. Will it be there if my phone order gets through?
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:15 AM
 
This is ridiculous.

Apple had more than a week to prepare for this, and apparently, they are just completely overwhelmed.

-t
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
This is ridiculous.

Apple had more than a week to prepare for this, and apparently, they are just completely overwhelmed.

-t
Yeah, what jerks. I hope AT&T dumps them.
     
MacinTommy
Mac Elite
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Yeah, I've gotten to the screen where I select how I want to have it delivered a few times. Every time I get some random error.
And the options for delivery are...?
     
-Q-
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:25 AM
 
The failure for me always seems to happen during the AT&T account lookup. I don't know who's to blame for the system failure but it truly is ridiculous.
     
-Q-
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
And the options for delivery are...?
Your billing address or an Apple Store.
     
SSharon
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Teaneck, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
This is ridiculous.

Apple had more than a week to prepare for this, and apparently, they are just completely overwhelmed.

-t
A week? They had 3 years! Each new iphone release has been popular and people have known details about the current iphone for many weeks already.

It may have taken additional steps, but if things are getting bogged down with ATT's side with the eligibility check there should have been a way to determine this in advance. I could have checked eligibility last week and been given a code to enter so an apple database could be queried instead of ATT's.

On a side note, I get fewer errors and get them later in the process when I use Safari rather than Firefox.
AT&T iPhone 5S and 6; 13" MBP; MDD G4.
     
-Q-
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 15, 2010, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
On a side note, I get fewer errors and get them later in the process when I use Safari rather than Firefox.
I've tried Chrome, Safari and Firefox. Failure one each browser at the same spot.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:54 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,