[BadKosh]

Here is more information showing that BP had clues to impending problems.

FOXNews.com - BP Reveals 'Fundamental Mistake' on Oil Well

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I don't know what you're going on about. You're making this out like it's BP fault, or something. This is clearly the fault of liberals. If the oil industry were properly regulated and inspected by government officials none of this would have happened.

And simultaneously, environmental protection measures which limit oil production are a scourge created by liberals, and these government impediments should be removed so as to increase oil production!

That's right! Cake + eating it, biotches!

[sek929]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

I live near the gulf coast in the affected area...Mississippi. I for one did not vote for Obama and do not like him. But I do not believe this is Obama's problem. This is a BP problem, they should pay for it and fix it and yeah I believe the Federal Gov't should be behind the scenes to make sure things are done. BP has offered people jobs that are fishermen to help clean things up that will pay a lot. BP gave Mississippi $25 million to hire people to clean up the beach.

Yeah this is something that should not have happened but it did, the response was let's play the blame game when it should have been lets get a plan together and fix this mess now. Which I believe by the way things are here on the coast that BP is really trying...They didn't know this was going to happen and you can't have a solution for every problem that could possibly happen.

So I while I am not a fan of Obama I don't blame him for anything. FEMA's job is not to be a response agency, it's a disaster mitigation agency which is what they did during Katrina and are doing now. Mississippi was hardest hit by Katrina, New Orleans had flooding after the fact. Mississippi has storm damage 200 miles inland across the entire state, we are somewhat back on our feet because we had lots of help from volunteers and we had Camille hit us, we were prepared...

I know that's probably a wrong answer but as someone that lives down here, yeah it sucks but it's not the time to sit around a Monday-morning quarterback, it's time to get a job done and do it as quick as possible which I think the president and FEMA are doing...We live in a age where everything is instant but sometimes things had to take time to mitigate and figure out.

Take your level-headed responses elsewhere!

Obama should be down there with his thumb in the hole, change indeed!

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

And simultaneously, environmental protection measures which limit oil production are a scourge created by liberals, and these government impediments should be removed so as to increase oil production!

That's right! Cake + eating it, biotches!

DUH! NO! they should actually do their jobs instead of sitting around looking at porn all day. Thats the problem with doing work on the forefront of the technology. They make mistakes. Perhaps if we removed 3 weeks of useless finger pointing and there was some leadership in taking care of the problem perhaps this mess wouldn't be so big? The rules and regulations didn't mean squat.

[ebuddy]

Next up...

You can't stick that knife into your temple, it's against the law. We're going to fund a regulatory body to make sure the next time someone gets the greedy idea of accidentally cramming a knife into their temple, we have enough people to stand around and watch them bleed out.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

Yeah this is something that should not have happened but it did, the response was let's play the blame game when it should have been lets get a plan together and fix this mess now. Which I believe by the way things are here on the coast that BP is really trying...They didn't know this was going to happen and you can't have a solution for every problem that could possibly happen.

That's totally cool, except totally sidestepping the issue.

The issue is that everyone knew that this could happen. To say "BP didn't know this was going to happen" is like saying "I was driving through rough, winding backcountry roads at an incredibly high rate of speed, but I didn't know I would hit that rock that blew my tire and made me have the accident." It's called foresight. Planning if you will. And everyone - everyone - who knew about these operations knew this was a real and distinct possibility.

(I say that because I live near (one of?) the largest offshore drilling fields in North America, and it's been a talked-about issue here for years. And by "talked-about", I mean academics, environmentalists, and non-oil-company people talk about it; the companies themselves prefered to assure people that it won't happen. Their response over the last month? "Conditions here are different than in the Caribbean". Translation: "it won't happen".)

So sometimes, when you're just some dude driving a car in the mountains, it's totally okay not to have a plan for a blowout.

But if the predictable blowout means a disaster on this scale? Well, according to you, at least they're "really trying" to fix it, so why point fingers?



greg

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

DUH! NO! they should actually do their jobs instead of sitting around looking at porn all day.

My issue with this is the exact same one I had with ebuddy's comments: their job is to simultaneously make resource extraction "less harmful/dangerous" while still allowing all harvesting that can take place. They have two ideological masters.

Neither of you will acknowledge that. It's weird.

Look, a simple search of this board can turn up various well-known conservative posters who are calling for less government oversight/regulation so as to allow more oil extraction in the US. It's even simpler to find criticisms of government policies based on "environmental grounds."

The fact is that many of the remaining resources in the developed Western world (especially US) are in hard-to-extract or environmentally-sensitive areas. There has to be some kind of balance there.

And to make it clear: I don't think anyone is trying to excuse the government agency(ies). But the fact is that anywhere there's oil that's allowed to be drilled - in the US, or in Canada's tar sands or offshore areas - environmental regulators can only make oil companies do the "bare minimum" when it comes to environmental, and oftentimes even safety concerns. Black gold come first. Period. The regulators make them do every little thing they can, but at the end of the day the oil will flow.

(I have a friend who works as a lawyer in the environmental agency that overseas Alberta's tar sands. She tells it exactly like it is.)

Thats the problem with doing work on the forefront of the technology. They make mistakes. Perhaps if we removed 3 weeks of useless finger pointing and there was some leadership in taking care of the problem perhaps this mess wouldn't be so big? The rules and regulations didn't mean squat.

You're doing your best to "create another Catrina", but the simple fact of the matter is that there's probably not anything anyone could do. No one knows how to fix this problem. That's why it's taking so long - because no one knows that to do, including one of the largest companies in the world who actually works in the field and created the problem.

What could the government do? I can imagine the conversation if/when BP phoned up 0bama: "hey... we think we've got a spill in the middle of the Gulf" and he says "okay... what does that mean" and BP replies "uhhh... we don't know, we'll let you know".

In this sense, iranfromthezoo's response is totally correct: no one knows what to do in this situation. Could it have been prevented? Probably yes. But now that it's happened, everything is just a crap shoot from here on in.

greg

[iranfromthezoo]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

That's totally cool, except totally sidestepping the issue.

The issue is that everyone knew that this could happen. To say "BP didn't know this was going to happen" is like saying "I was driving through rough, winding backcountry roads at an incredibly high rate of speed, but I didn't know I would hit that rock that blew my tire and made me have the accident." It's called foresight. Planning if you will. And everyone - everyone - who knew about these operations knew this was a real and distinct possibility.

(I say that because I live near (one of?) the largest offshore drilling fields in North America, and it's been a talked-about issue here for years. And by "talked-about", I mean academics, environmentalists, and non-oil-company people talk about it; the companies themselves prefered to assure people that it won't happen. Their response over the last month? "Conditions here are different than in the Caribbean". Translation: "it won't happen".)

So sometimes, when you're just some dude driving a car in the mountains, it's totally okay not to have a plan for a blowout.

But if the predictable blowout means a disaster on this scale? Well, according to you, at least they're "really trying" to fix it, so why point fingers?



greg

I am not advocating that no one be blamed for this because right now I want my damn ocean back. We got beat up hard after Katrina and just got the Highway 90 corridor cleaned up and then something like this happened. So yeah I'd really like to see a lot less bitching and a lot more let's find a solution for the problem. Then once everything is said and done we can levy fines, lawsuits whatever against BP and Transocean (who was operating the rig). I have friends who work in the oil industry and are roughnecks on those rigs and if they tell me the companies are doing everything they can because they haven't been home in over 2 months then I believe them. Like you said though, planning and foresight is a key issue but sometimes you can't what-if something all the time.. That blowout was highly unlikely because of the conditions here in the gulf than other places, but hey what do I know? I am just a dumb redneck from Mississippi who probably has no teeth. The rubber seal unfortunately was dry-rotted and that is what pisses me off more than anything else because that was preventable...put a new seal in.

And again to call this another Katrina (Catrina?) is a ridiculous point. (not pointed towards you Greg.)

Greg: I totally see what you are saying though and understand it.

[finboy]

In response to the thread title:

yep, that's how it's turning out.

As for all the other stuff: irrespective of what could have been done before it happened, etc., there's plenty that could be done NOW, and there's a bunch of people at the Federal level doing nothing.

So, no, PBO doesn't need to put down the golf clubs and fly to the Gulf to put his thumb in the hole, but getting the collective thumb out would be a good idea. Let's settle for that at this point.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Rumour is that it's plugged... no confirmation from BP as of yet.

[nonhuman]

According to Discovery News (I work in the same building, it's a very convenient news source) the blowout has been plugged. No details yet.

[deedar]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

How exactly would the US government go about grinding an international company and its assets into the ground? War?

BP America is based in Houston. That's how.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

How exactly would the US government go about grinding an international company and its assets into the ground? War?

Are you suggesting that the only way the US government can deal with international issues is through war? Other ways the US government has dealt with foreign companies in the past:
- change US laws to be unfavorable to a foreign company (I lost a job that way a few years back)
- pressure on the foreign country (the US government is currently pressuring the Canadian government to change it's law to be more favorable to US organizations)
- work through international agencies heavily influenced by the US (PirateBay prosecution)

Those are just the ones that spring immediately to mind. I'm certain there's many more.

[Wiskedjak]

Now news is starting to emerge that BP may have known about problems with Deepwater Horizon *a year ago*.
Documents Show Early Worries About Safety of Rig - NYTimes.com

[conservative spin]
I can't believe Obama did nothing about this!
[/conservative spin]

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Now news is starting to emerge that BP may have known about problems with Deepwater Horizon *a year ago*.
Documents Show Early Worries About Safety of Rig - NYTimes.com

[conservative spin]
I can't believe Obama did nothing about this!
[/conservative spin]

News also shows where the MMS' repeat inspections not only failed to uncover any problems with the Deepwater Horizon, but awarded them for their "outstanding drilling operations".
MMS gives rig operator Transocean a top safety award.

[liberal spin]
Proof that we need more regulation!
[/liberal spin]

[Wiskedjak]

So, without the partisan spin from both sides, two things are clear:

- businesses can't be trusted to police themselves. It's clear that BP doesn't care about safety concerns if it thinks it can get away with it.

- government regulators can't be trusted to not be corrupt. If a bribe is offered, they'll likely take it.

The solution isn't more regulation, but it might be *better* regulation. If BP is covering up safety concerns with corrupt regulation in place, I can only imagine how they'd behave without *any* regulation.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

So, without the partisan spin from both sides, two things are clear:

- businesses can't be trusted to police themselves. It's clear that BP doesn't care about safety concerns if it thinks it can get away with it.

- government regulators can't be trusted to not be corrupt. If a bribe is offered, they'll likely take it.

The solution isn't more regulation, but it might be *better* regulation. If BP is covering up safety concerns with corrupt regulation in place, I can only imagine how they'd behave without *any* regulation.

No company will act in any deliberate way to spew millions of gallons of a commodity @ $74/barrel into the gulf. Evil? Sure. Suicidal? I doubt it. Conversely, I wonder if these operations would have gone forward without the false sense of security afforded us by the MMS. Instead of asking; "is this right?" we ask, "is this legal?"; another form of dependency.

No regulation of any kind can be "better" when it is not followed. The same problems with enforcement of policy would not magically disappear because of different policies. There were a wealth of regulatory measures in place just as there were several disaster readiness plans. They simply weren't followed.

[Wiskedjak]

Sorry, that's exactly what I meant by "better regulation". I suspect the policies in place are just fine. By "better", I mean "regulators who aren't corrupt".

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

No company will act in any deliberate way to spew millions of gallons of a commodity @ $74/barrel into the gulf.

Perhaps not intentionally, but I'd bet they're not overly concerned, especially since the cost to BP is minimal, and we get it passed on to us, and they happen to be one of the largest companies of their type in the world.

Evil? Sure. Suicidal? I doubt it. Conversely, I wonder if these operations would have gone forward without the false sense of security afforded us by the MMS. Instead of asking; "is this right?" we ask, "is this legal?"; another form of dependency.

What does the MMS have to do with a company's obligation to insure safe business operations?

No regulation of any kind can be "better" when it is not followed. The same problems with enforcement of policy would not magically disappear because of different policies. There were a wealth of regulatory measures in place just as there were several disaster readiness plans. They simply weren't followed.

That's true, but it's also true that many of the federal regulators in Washington come from the very industries they're supposed to regulate, which doesn't give one a warm and fuzzy feeling about the rules they're writing, to benefit themselves.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Are you suggesting that the only way the US government can deal with international issues is through war?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Other ways the US government has dealt with foreign companies in the past:
- change US laws to be unfavorable to a foreign company (I lost a job that way a few years back)

That wouldn't work in the upcoming financial climate. You're about to have the worst depression in history.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

- pressure on the foreign country (the US government is currently pressuring the Canadian government to change it's law to be more favorable to US organizations)

Well, that might work if you helped us out with Argentina recently. You didn't. And the current administration are less pussy than the last.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

- work through international agencies heavily influenced by the US (PirateBay prosecution).

That might work if the US still had any traction. You're rapidly losing it.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Perhaps not intentionally, but I'd bet they're not overly concerned, especially since the cost to BP is minimal, and we get it passed on to us, and they happen to be one of the largest companies of their type in the world.

The example of pure logic I provided requires more than; "I'd bet they're not overly concerned" IMO. First of all, there is absolutely nothing "minimal" about the cost to BP, nothing at all. BP (one of the largest companies of their type in the world) were picked as winners by the Federal government, granted awards for safety, and a go-ahead on operations without the "required" studies. Worse, the MMS literally grants hundreds of these go-aheads without even knowing how much oil is being generated from the offshore industry it is funded to oversee.

Speaking of getting it passed on to us; our tax dollars are used for the bureaucracy, then the bureacracy steals from us in the form of withheld royalties, then we get the oil spill, and we get little to no effective government response. Lose, lose, lose, and lose.

What does the MMS have to do with a company's obligation to insure safe business operations?

Absolutely nothing until the government takes it upon itself in the form of a bureaucracy to insure safe business operations. Don't take my word for it. Read the MMS mission statement.

That's true, but it's also true that many of the federal regulators in Washington come from the very industries they're supposed to regulate, which doesn't give one a warm and fuzzy feeling about the rules they're writing, to benefit themselves.

The MMS staffing is likely an attempt at getting people involved who are at least somewhat knowledgeable of the industry, but yeah... that doesn't mean the bureaucracy will act on our behalf any more than BP.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

That wouldn't work in the upcoming financial climate. You're about to have the worst depression in history.

While I whole-heartedly agree with you as I do on most occasions, I'm not sure how the smiley face fits into the equation here.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

News also shows where the MMS' repeat inspections not only failed to uncover any problems with the Deepwater Horizon, but awarded them for their "outstanding drilling operations".
MMS gives rig operator Transocean a top safety award.

[liberal spin]
Proof that we need more regulation!
[/liberal spin]

If we are using conservative contradictory logic it would be:

9/11 is the proof we don't need more regulation, national defense, or improve monitoring.

We should just privatize national security and allow the free market to take care of itself.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

While I whole-heartedly agree with you as I do on most occasions, I'm not sure how the smiley face fits into the equation here.

It's a combination of my misanthropy hobby and the fact that on the other side of said collapse it'll be much easier to finally get rid of all these keynesian nutjobs (and by proxy, the socialists).

[hyteckit]

BP oil spill is a wake up call.

Time to nationalize oil drilling.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

If we are using conservative contradictory logic it would be:

9/11 is the proof we don't need more regulation, national defense, or improve monitoring.

Funny seeing as these are all contradictory to liberal logic. 9/11 was either an inside govt job or it was our government actions that created the terrorists right? National Defense = Military Industrial complex = bad right? Border security and the enforcement of immigration policy = bad right?

I for one never called for more regulation in response to 9/11. i.e. you weren't able to produce this post without a large leap backwards in reasoning and it shows.

We should just privatize national security and allow the free market to take care of itself.

Once again you seemed to have confused conservative with anarchist.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

BP oil spill is a wake up call.

Time to nationalize oil drilling.

Nationalize oil drilling. Man, you think the industry is fubar now? Put the government in charge.

Wait, they already were in charge of offshore operations.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Nationalize oil drilling. Man, you think the industry is fubar now? Put the government in charge.

Wait, they already were in charge of offshore operations.

Maybe would should privatize national security.

Government can't do anything anyway. So, lets get rid of our army and military. Government will own no weapons or military equipment. Just leave that to private companies.

Let BP handle our national security. Or Halliburton. Or Blackwater.

The free market will handle itself.


Government can't handle oil drilling. Government can't handle national security. Look at 9/11. Massive failure of national defense. Proof that national defense needs to be privatized.

[BadKosh]

It's well beyond the name calling and finger pointing now.

Oil still gushing in August is not acceptable.

How about the Glomar-Observer* (or whatever it was called- the really big ship that could lift and deal with extremely big items like Russian subs) What could they drop on the entire area to plug the leak? how about a big cement cone dropped into the hole? How about a 200 foot diameter pipe about 300 feet tall with a 1/2 sphere welded to the top and an attachment to suck the oil to tankers? At this point, anybody may have a better solution than BP. Where is Red Adair and the Hellfighters?

BP = Busted Pipe, Bad Planning, Big Problem, Blatant Procrastination...


* currently mothballed.

[stumblinmike]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Where is Red Adair and the Hellfighters?

Red is in heaven....

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Maybe would should privatize national security.

Government can't do anything anyway. So, lets get rid of our army and military. Government will own no weapons or military equipment. Just leave that to private companies.

Let BP handle our national security. Or Halliburton. Or Blackwater.

The free market will handle itself.


Government can't handle oil drilling. Government can't handle national security. Look at 9/11. Massive failure of national defense. Proof that national defense needs to be privatized.

Why are you writing all this to me? I'm not an anarchist. Anyway, you should write your senator. Maybe you'll get an honorable mention at their concession speech this fall.

[BadKosh]

Now the Obama admin is looking for a criminal scapegoat.
Eric the stupid is to look for criminals. LOL
How familiar with law could he be? It's not like he reads or anything.

Another typical waste of taxpayer money on diversions from the Obama admins foot dragging and incompetence.

Feds open criminal probe of Gulf oil spill - Yahoo! News

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Now the Obama admin is looking for a criminal scapegoat.
Eric the stupid is to look for criminals. LOL
How familiar with law could he be? It's not like he reads or anything.

Another typical waste of taxpayer money on diversions from the Obama admins foot dragging and incompetence.

Feds open criminal probe of Gulf oil spill - Yahoo! News

Cool.

I never understood how corporations can get away with manslaughter.

If BP ignore safety regulations and end up killing 11 people because of it, they should be charged with manslaughter.

[BadKosh]

Obama admin < leaders

[The Godfather]

If the theories that qualify this well as uncappable are true, the well might stop gushing when all the gulf oil is depleted, in or around the 22nd century.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

It's well beyond the name calling and finger pointing now.

Obama admin < leaders

Except when you do it.

[The Final Dakar]

So, has anyone mentioned the Russians nuke option?

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

And simultaneously, environmental protection measures which limit oil production are a scourge created by liberals, and these government impediments should be removed so as to increase oil production!

That's right! Cake + eating it, biotches!

You think you're being sarcastic, but you're correct. If it weren't FORCED by those measures to be so far out and so deep, it could be controlled more easily.

Or - just a thought - if it were on the billions of barrels we KNOW exist where they can be drilled for on land.


Also hilarious all the Libbies screeching we should "seize BP." I simply asked one of them the other day what the "B" stands for - they actually understood how stupid they were after thinking about that.

[olePigeon]

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Except when you do it.

Both were obvious points. WHERE are any leaders in all this? The Obama admin says they are in charge. Where is the evidence? All while the oil continues to spew out.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

So, has anyone mentioned the Russians nuke option?

If they do this and the sea turns red, I'm friggin' outta here.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

So, has anyone mentioned the Russians nuke option?

I think that's off the table because of the well's depth, dunno. But I am curious about the affects of radiation on wildlife.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by osiris 

I think that's off the table because of the well's depth, dunno. But I am curious about the affects of radiation on wildlife.

Yeah, I have no idea. What little I read claims the russians have done this before, but I find that hard to believe - wouldn't someone have noticed (the detonation or the fallout) ?

[osiris]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Yeah, I have no idea. What little I read claims the russians have done this before, but I find that hard to believe - wouldn't someone have noticed (the detonation or the fallout) ?

Good point - unless it was years ago before the internets existed or before modern detection abilities. In fact, I never heard of such a thing until this BP incident.

Maybe someone should send a bunch of tampons down there.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Yeah, I have no idea. What little I read claims the russians have done this before, but I find that hard to believe - wouldn't someone have noticed (the detonation or the fallout) ?

If it was a small nuke detonated underground there would have been very little noticeable radiation without direct access to the site. And, if the detonation were deep enough there would be nothing ejected into the atmosphere to generate any fallout.

[The Final Dakar]

I was assuming when the russians said they did this before, it was referring to ocean based detonations, like this would require.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

What could the government do? I can imagine the conversation if/when BP phoned up 0bama: "hey... we think we've got a spill in the middle of the Gulf" and he says "okay... what does that mean" and BP replies "uhhh... we don't know, we'll let you know".

Follow the EPA's documented plan for the national response to an oil spill? Too easy.

[Kerrigan]

I'm guessing golf is a bit more important to Obama right now than this disaster...

[besson3c]

Why is it that some people want hands off government in general, and they want government to be accountable for the failures of a private business in the same breath? Isn't this a bit of a double standard?

This incident underscores to me the idea that people are flawed and incompetent, not exclusively government nor private business.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why is it that some people want hands off government in general, and they want government to be accountable for the failures of a private business in the same breath? Isn't this a bit of a double standard?

It's because they are partisan hypocrites.

This incident underscores to me the idea that people are flawed and incompetent, not exclusively government nor private business.

"People" are not flawed and incompetent. Sometimes individuals can be flawed and/or incompetent.