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Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 22)
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OAW
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Dec 5, 2014, 02:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I refuse to take your BS comments seriously anymore, they're filled with so many half-truths, manipulations, and outright lies that it makes it impossible. It's as if you can't think at all for yourself so you go grab your side's talking points, write them directly into your programming, and then paste them all over the place. Which political group do you work for, again?
Still waiting on that actual evidence that Mike Brown was "charged with numerous violent felonies". Oh you are still talking about "distortions", "manipulations", and "lies"?

Bye Felicia!
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 02:21 AM
 
More shenanigans ...

Five deputies are under investigation for allegedly sending racist text messages while working, the Montgomery County Sheriff’s Department confirmed, according to Raw Story.

Two of the officers involved, Sheriff’s Capt. Thomas J. Flanders and Det. Michael J. Sollenberger, were put on paid leave at the beginning of December. The other three deputies have not been named and have not been suspended, the news site notes.

The texts under scrutiny were sent between November 2011 and January 2013 from the officers’ personal phones. According to Sheriff Phil Plummer, some of the messages targeted black deputies and were sent while the men were on duty, Raw Story reports.

“The n-word was used several times, as well as other racial slurs and jokes,” Plummer said. “Racism will not be tolerated in this office.”

The texts that the news site quotes include these: “What do apples and black people have in common? They both hang from trees,” “I hate N*ggers. That is all” and “Very simply put, they’re N*ggers, son.”

According to the report, the texts were initially brought to the attention of Dayton Unit NAACP President Derrick L. Foward through an anonymous tip. Foward reported the tip to the department, where officials conducted an investigation and met with the NAACP national office before revealing the allegations to the public.
5 Ohio Sheriff’s Deputies Under Investigation for Racist Texts - The Root

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Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 5, 2014, 02:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Still waiting on that actual evidence that Mike Brown was "charged with numerous violent felonies". Oh you are still talking about "distortions", "manipulations", and "lies"?

Bye Felicia!
The only thing they've said so far is that he doesn't have Class A or B "most serious" felonies, but of course, to you that automatically means that none were violent, and you said as much. Since they aren't "most serious" the court can sit on them as long as they want, apparently. As the court official said:

"the court of public opinion does not require the release of juvenile records," adding that "simple curiosity" was not an adequate reason to violate the privacy of Brown and his family."
So they'll sit until they leak, or one of the numerous suits to get them is successful, either way we'll know all the specifics in due time. Not that you'd believe them anyway.
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Dec 5, 2014, 02:40 AM
 
Another unarmed black man shot and killed by a white cop in Phoenix. Protests underway right now.

Protesters demanded Thursday night that Phoenix police identify the officer who shot and killed Rumain Brisbon, a 34-year-old unarmed black father of four children, in a confrontation that critics and community members likened to the deaths of Michael Brown in Missouri and Eric Garner in New York.

About 100 people marched to police headquarters a day after the department strongly defended the decision by the officer who shot Brisbon, who friends and family said was simply delivering dinner to his children, on Tuesday night.

"This one went bad from the standpoint of how it ended, but the officer was doing exactly what we want him to do," Sgt. Trent Crump, a Phoenix police spokesman, said at a news conference Wednesday.

But Ann Hart, chairwoman of the African American Police Advisory Board for South Phoenix, said the shooting only reinforces "the impression it's open season for killing black men."

"We need to look into that," Hart told NBC station KPNX of Phoenix. "We need to take a deeper dive into why police officers are feeling compelled to shoot and kill as opposed to apprehend and detain, arrest and jail."

Another rally was scheduled for Friday night. With police being questioned about the deaths of unarmed black men not only in Phoenix but also in Ferguson, Missouri, and in New York, a nonprofit police foundation in nearby Tempe, Arizona, canceled a fundraising "Run From the Cops 5K" race scheduled for Saturday, citing "sensitivity, respect, and support for all sides of an important debate taking place all across our great country."

Crump told reporters that the officer and his partner were responding to a burglary call about 6 p.m. Tuesday (8 p.m. ET) when a local resident told them that men in a black sport-utility vehicle were dealing drugs. The license plate number given by the resident matched a vehicle owned by a resident of a block where police were already investigating a report of loud music, Crump said, so the officer approached the SUV, whose driver got out.

When the officer told the driver, later identified as Brisbon, to show his hands, the driver instead put his hands into the waistband of his pants, at which point the officer drew his gun, Crump said. Brisbon began to run away, but the officer chased him down, and they began struggling, Crump said.

"The officer believed he felt the handle of a gun while holding the suspect's hand in his pocket," Crump said. Unable to keep his grip on Brisbon's hand, the officer fired two shots, Crump said. The object in Brisbon's pocket was later discovered to be a bottle of pain pills,
but an unspecified weapon and what appeared to be marijuana were found in the SUV, Crump said.

The Rev. Jarrett Maupin, an organizer of Thursday night's march, told KPNX that Brisbon was probably justified in fearing for his life and trying to flee when the Phoenix officer approached him and his friend Tuesday night.

"The Phoenix Police Department does not treat white people this way," Maupin said. "What that officer did was harass and accost them."

Marci A. Kratter, an attorney for Brisbon's family, told The Arizona Republic newspaper of Phoenix that eyewitnesses would dispute the official police account and that "we intend to pursue this to the full extent of the law."
Protesters March After Phoenix Police Kill Unarmed Black Man - NBC News

What this particular article is not mentioning that I've read in another article earlier today is that the officer saw Brisbon reaching into the back of the SUV and removing items. Apparently the officer assumed he was getting drugs. But the witnesses say that he was simply retrieving some fast food he had purchased for his children. The food was scattered all over the ground outside the apartment door where the struggle ensued. Naturally we have the "he put his hands into the waistband" excuse. I mean the cops ALWAYS say that. Even though it makes no logical sense to reach into one's waistband for a weapon that is not there. And that's really difficult to do when you are carrying a bunch of bags of fast food. Then the officer describes this fierce "struggle" ... where Brisbon's hand was now in his pocket ... NOT the waistband ... clutching what he presumed to be a gun. Now that is a really neat trick to be wrestling with a cop with your hand in your pocket ... holding onto a bottle of pain pills. We'll see how this one plays out.

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Dec 5, 2014, 02:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Originally Posted by OAW
Still waiting on that actual evidence that Mike Brown was "charged with numerous violent felonies". Oh you are still talking about "distortions", "manipulations", and "lies"?

Bye Felicia!
The only thing they've said so far is that he doesn't have Class A or B "most serious" felonies, but of course, to you that automatically means that none were violent, and you said as much. Since they aren't "most serious" the court can sit on them as long as they want, apparently.
That's NOT the only thing they said. They also said that that if he had two or more Class A, B, OR C felonies any juvenile record he may have had would be open to the public. In other words, if he had been charged with "numerous violent felonies" of ANY class as YOU claimed we would know about it. Because you can't have NUMEROUS such felony charges without exceeding TWO!

You know apparently it's not basic arithmetic that eludes you. Because the sh*t really isn't even that complicated. It would appear that you simply can't count.

Do you have evidence that Mike Brown had ANY felony charges against him? Ever? You have STILL yet produce an IOTA of proof ... but you continue to talk sh*t stating your woefully uninformed opinions as fact. Like I said before ...

Bye Felicia!

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Dec 5, 2014 at 03:11 AM. )
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
That's NOT the only thing they said. They also said that that if he had two or more Class A, B, OR C felonies any juvenile record he may have had would be open to the public. In other words, if he had been charged with "numerous violent felonies" of ANY class as YOU claimed we would know about it. Because you can't have NUMEROUS such felony charges without exceeding TWO!
That isn't the law at all, actually, they're only released if there are active charges pertinent to those records, that's what was meant when the spokeswoman for the court said:

"The court of public opinion does not require the release of juvenile records," adding that "simple curiosity" was not an adequate reason to violate the privacy of Brown and his family."

Law of Self Defense – MO §211.321 Juvenile court records, confidentiality, exceptions–records of peace officers, exceptions, release of certain information to victim

MO §211.321 Juvenile court records, confidentiality, exceptions–records of peace officers, exceptions, release of certain information to victim

1. Records of juvenile court proceedings as well as all information obtained and social records prepared in the discharge of official duty for the court shall not be open to inspection or their contents disclosed, except by order of the court to persons having a legitimate interest therein, unless a petition or motion to modify is sustained which charges the child with an offense which, if committed by an adult, would be a class A felony under the criminal code of Missouri, or capital murder, first degree murder, or second degree murder or except as provided in subsection 2 of this section. In addition, whenever a report is required under section 557.026, there shall also be included a complete list of certain violations of the juvenile code for which the defendant had been adjudicated a delinquent while a juvenile. This list shall be made available to the probation officer and shall be included in the presentence report. The violations to be included in the report are limited to the following: rape, sodomy, murder, kidnapping, robbery, arson, burglary or any acts involving the rendering or threat of serious bodily harm. The supreme court may promulgate rules to be followed by the juvenile courts in separating the records.
So they're sealed up regardless, unless he's being charged with a crime as an adult and those records are to be modified, which seldom happens except in capital offenses, or if they're officially released to "persons having a legitimate interest". Which is why there are currently suits to acquire them. So, where did you get the "2 or more" stuff, Derik?

Do you have evidence that Mike Brown had ANY felony charges against him? Ever? You have STILL yet produce an IOTA of proof ... but you continue to talk sh*t stating your woefully uninformed opinions as fact. Like I said before ...
You mean the ones the juvenile court has sealed? Those violent felonies?
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
So, where did you get the "2 or more" stuff, Derik?
As I said ... reading comprehension is apparently not your strong suit.

It is not known whether Brown had ever been accused of lesser offenses. Class C felonies, for example, which include involuntary manslaughter and second-degree assault, would become open only if there were two previous adjudications for class A, B or C felonies. That was not the case with Brown.
Juvenile court: Michael Brown had no most-serious felony convictions or pending cases : STLToday.com

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You mean the ones the juvenile court has sealed? Those violent felonies?
The concept that you still seem incapable of grasping is that sealed doesn't mean "A juvenile record exists that the state won't reveal." What it means is that "The state will neither confirm nor deny the existence of a juvenile record".

In a phone interview with The Post, Harcourt said that Class A and Class B felonies would have been a matter of public record regardless. She couldn’t confirm or deny whether a juvenile record existed for Brown.
Michael Brown was not convicted of any Class A or Class B felonies in juvenile court - The Washington Post

So again ... the state has not indicated one way or the other whether a juvenile record EVEN EXISTS for Mike Brown. Yet you continue to claim that he had been charged with "numerous violent felonies". A claim that you clearly have no factual basis to make. As evidenced by the citation above!

Surely you must be EXHAUSTED from being so dense?

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Dec 5, 2014, 05:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
As I said ... reading comprehension is apparently not your strong suit.

Juvenile court: Michael Brown had no most-serious felony convictions or pending cases : STLToday.com
I show you the actual law and the link to it yet you refuse to even accept it. Typical for you.

The concept that you still seem incapable of grasping is that sealed doesn't mean "A juvenile record exists that the state won't reveal." What it means is that "The state will neither confirm nor deny the existence of a juvenile record".
No, that's not what it means, but that doesn't stop you from reaching, does it? If there wasn't they'd say there wasn't, it would save them a lot of hassle, but, given that there are, and they aren't required to give them up according to the actual law I quoted, they remain sealed, for now.

Michael Brown was not convicted of any Class A or Class B felonies in juvenile court - The Washington Post

So again ... the state has not indicated one way or the other whether a juvenile record EVEN EXISTS for Mike Brown. Yet you continue to claim that he had been charged with "numerous violent felonies". A claim that you clearly have no factual basis to make. As evidenced by the citation above!

Surely you must be EXHAUSTED from being so dense?
Not as exhausted as you are keeping up with all your lies. So how about that "requires 2 or more felonies" statement?

They also said that that if he had two or more Class A, B, OR C felonies any juvenile record he may have had would be open to the public.
Who are "they"? Because it isn't in Missouri code MO §211.321, the statute for juvenile court records. The reality is, practically any crime can be in those records, but they'll remain sealed "unless a petition or motion to modify is sustained which charges the child with an offense which, if committed by an adult, would be a class A felony under the criminal code of Missouri". Well?
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Dec 5, 2014, 08:28 AM
 
I find the hypocritical BS from the black community to be quite sad. First they say black lives are worth as much as white lives, but the black on black killings continue, and THAT is not addressed. Why is ONE black live worth protesting while hundreds of young black men are killing each other and no one bats an eye?

Does anyone care that since Ferguson, 42 cops have been killed nationwide? This is why I believe this is a set-up that the black community is easily falling for. They are just pawns being stirred up by Sharpton, holder, Obama and Jackson, and parroted by the leftist media.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 08:51 AM
 
No holes in that reasoning.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why is ONE black live worth protesting while hundreds of young black men are killing each other and no one bats an eye?
Because one of the main pillars of African American identity is that the source of their community's ills stem out of external racist forces they have no control over. The notion that many of those problems they suffer from today is due to internal causes that they must address from within is simply a concept their leaders reject. Any event that could possibly affirm this illusion is paraded around from home to church to deflect from any serious introspection.

In Chicago, where pretty much all shootings of African American males are done by another African American males, the likelihood of a shooter even being identified so they can be charged with a crime is somewhere around six percent...... Not because of stealth or law enforcement apathy but because the very members of that community who witness them find it more self serving to turn a blind eye and not cooperate with investigations.

Black lives matter is a trite little motto that I seriously doubt will get bandied about after the next Englewood resident on Englewood resident multiple homicide. Which today being Friday should be in about 13 hours.

The country's attention set on tackling white cops unjustifiably shooting black men is about as important as focusing on the threat of shark attacks instead of heart disease for Americans.

Barack Obama: Four more years of the Carter Presidency
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 5, 2014, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Yeah, you go on beliving it's not amnesty.
You go on not adding anything to the discussion. How is it amnesty? I don't know because you're taking that secret to the grave.

However, I'll be so benign as to add this for you: A stay of execution isn't the same thing as a pardon.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
First they say black lives are worth as much as white lives, but the black on black killings continue, and THAT is not addressed.
This has been debunked several times in the thread, and yet you persist.

Edit: Complaining about black on black violence in the face of police brutality is like complaining about petty theft in the face of the 2008 banking crisis.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Another unarmed black man shot and killed by a white cop in Phoenix. Protests underway right now.
This is not something I'd hang my "cops are being racist" or "cops are using excessive force" hat on.

The community needs to be a little more exacting in what it chooses to stand up for. Particularly if you want to win in the court of public opinion.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 11:28 AM
 
Oh good, Rand Paul clarified the problem for us.
Rand Paul blames Garner's death on NYC cigarette tax - CNN.com
On Wednesday, Paul said Garner's death would have been prevented if the law creating New York City's high cigarette taxes -- the highest in the country -- wasn't created.
This guy is such an asshat.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I find the hypocritical BS from the black community to be quite sad. First they say black lives are worth as much as white lives, but the black on black killings continue, and THAT is not addressed. Why is ONE black live worth protesting while hundreds of young black men are killing each other and no one bats an eye?
Like this?

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sk...orse-latest-cd

Now, the CDC’s latest Abortion Surveillance report has found that the problem isn't getting any better. The report found that between 2007 and 2010, nearly 36 percent of all abortions in the U.S. were performed on black children, even though blacks make up only 12.8 percent of the population. Another 21 percent of abortions were performed on Hispanics, and an additional seven percent on other minority races.

All in all, more than half of all babies killed by abortion between 2007 and 2010 were minorities.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 11:50 AM
 
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post

Edit: Complaining about black on black violence in the face of police brutality is like complaining about petty theft in the face of the 2008 banking crisis.
You have that 100% backwards. Cops aren't killing blacks at a rate of 22 per day, like they're doing to each other.
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Dec 5, 2014, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh good, Rand Paul clarified the problem for us.
Rand Paul blames Garner's death on NYC cigarette tax - CNN.com


This guy is such an asshat.
There wouldn't be a thriving black market if they weren't so expensive, to a point it does make sense.
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Dec 5, 2014, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You have that 100% backwards. Cops aren't killing blacks at a rate of 22 per day, like they're doing to each other.
One of those two isn't paid to protect us. You guys are trying to focus on raw numbers while ignoring the violation of responsibility by police. It's absolute BS. Ignoring our ability to ****ing multitask on issues, you guys seem to be implying that somehow the civilian issue should be sorted out before we worry who have been granted great power and responsibility.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
There wouldn't be a thriving black market if they weren't so expensive, to a point it does make sense.
I'd be right if I said stagnating wages led to the mortgage crisis, but I'd be asshole if I went on national TV during the height of it and bitched about that.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
One of those two isn't paid to protect us. You guys are trying to focus on raw numbers while ignoring the violation of responsibility by police.
No, I get it, but when you're looking a volume of murders that high, compounded by a complete lack of concern from the black community itself, it's much more shocking. Yeah, you're morally outraged that some cops are too rough on people or escalate too quickly, but they're just people, people who are prone to mistakes and flaws like anyone else. The fact is, statistically speaking, if a black man is murdered it was done by another black man, and it was over drugs and/or money, it wasn't committed by a cop. But no one cares, or at least no one on the Left side of their community wants to discuss it. FYI, if black>black murders in this country were brought down to non-black averages, our homicide rate would be only slightly above Canada's, no mean feat given the differences in gun laws. Now, if you isolate black homicide rates, the number is slightly below Nigeria and about the same as Botswana (18.2 / 100,000). That's some super scary shit, right there.

Ignore the issues with police? Hell no, laws need to be changed to make them more accountable and make their procedural processes more transparent (body cams), but not addressing blacks slaughtering each other at a rate that's consistent with an African country in the middle of a civil war is batshit crazy.
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Dec 5, 2014, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'd be right if I said stagnating wages led to the mortgage crisis, but I'd be asshole if I went on national TV during the height of it and bitched about that.
Maybe we need more assholes bitching, because what we've been doing up to now doesn't work.
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Dec 5, 2014, 12:49 PM
 
I'm saying the PROTESTERS are being duped. I'm saying until the blacks STOP KILLING EACH OTHER their claim that black lives are worth the same as others is BS. I'm sick of the hypocrites. I'm sick of the MSM fanning the flames. I'm still wondering why you haven't realized that is the history of violence from the black community has caused the police to use these tactics in the first place. I'm not surprised the black community isn't able to peacefully talk with politicians and officials to resolve their perceived problems.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
The fact is, statistically speaking, if a black man is murdered it was done by another black man, and it was over drugs and/or money, it wasn't committed by a cop.
Doesn't this go for whites too?


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
FYI, if black>black murders in this country were brought down to non-black averages, our homicide rate would be only slightly above Canada's, no mean feat given the differences in gun laws. Now, if you isolate black homicide rates, the number is slightly below Nigeria and about the same as Botswana (18.2 / 100,000). That's some super scary shit, right there.
At which point I'll ask, what is the root cause? Because as we know when we look at a lot of other places Blacks lag in, poverty seems to come up often as a factor. Is it a mostly black thing or is it mostly a poverty thing?


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Ignore the issues with police? Hell no, laws need to be changed to make them more accountable and make their procedural processes more transparent (body cams), but not addressing blacks slaughtering each other at a rate that's consistent with an African country in the middle of a civil war is batshit crazy.
Considering the crime is down in the past 20 years, what rate were they going at in the 90s?


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Maybe we need more assholes bitching, because what we've been doing up to now doesn't work.
We don't need people bitching, we need solutions, and we need to enact them. Of course, we're not going to get consensus on that. So it's going to fester.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I'm saying until the blacks STOP KILLING EACH OTHER their claim that black lives are worth the same as others is BS.
This is foul.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 01:14 PM
 
There are large sections of Atlanta I wouldn't enter without a company of Marines providing escort, yet we expect regular police to just act natural and do their jobs. Hint: cops get scared too and you can't expect 100% rational behavior, day in and day out, when their job is to essentially police a war zone. Sure, it's about income inequality and a host of other social factors, but the police aren't responsible for that, yet they're the ones who have to draw the chalk outlines and investigate the murders and robberies every day. "Well, that's their job, they can quit if they can't handle it." Yeah, maybe they should, maybe it's too much to ask of any police officer.
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Dec 5, 2014, 01:15 PM
 
Do you believe what a report falsifying ex-cop politician said?
McCulloch supporter: McCulloch never intended to indict Wilson | MSNBC
HAYES: Mr. Roorda, if this is the best process that will can be offered, will you commit here on air for calling for Bob McCulloch to pursue this process in all subsequent cases?

ROORDA: The process that Bob McCulloch used in this case was different. It was to oblige the public outcry when he didn`t believe there was enough to charge. He didn`t believe that the evidence led to the conclusion that the officer violated the law, but he still took it –

HAYES: If it`s a good process, should the prosecutor demand that process -

ROORDA: He still provided all the evidence to the grand jurors and they reached the same conclusion that he did.

HAYES: If the process is a good process, should the prosecutor always use that process, yes or no?

ROORDA: No, he shouldn`t have used in this case. He should have said there`s not enough evidence to pursue a charge here. He should have never taken it to the grand jury.
If only he'd 'obliged' us by appointing a special prosecutor.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 5, 2014, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Doesn't this go for whites too?
No, the rates aren't even close to comparable.

At which point I'll ask, what is the root cause? Because as we know when we look at a lot of other places Blacks lag in, poverty seems to come up often as a factor. Is it a mostly black thing or is it mostly a poverty thing?
Non-blacks in sub-poverty level areas aren't killing each other like that. I'm sure income is a factor but it isn't the trigger.

Considering the crime is down in the past 20 years, what rate were they going at in the 90s?
For black males it's mostly the same, it's the other segments that made the largest shifts downward bringing down the overall rate.

We don't need people bitching, we need solutions, and we need to enact them. Of course, we're not going to get consensus on that. So it's going to fester.
If people can't even concede that there's even a problem, like with black on black homicide rates, how can we even work on a solution? "We need to do something" doesn't mean "We need to do anything". Blacks need more jobs, they need more opportunity, their environment in urban areas is toxic, but that can't be fixed without moving them then, almost literally, nuking and paving the areas. Businesses want to move in but then community leaders scream about gentrification (I've experienced a similar situation first hand, and that was just a free community center). If we could sit and discuss it all frankly, without all the bullshit, and work on it all together as a nation, we could fix this. I know we could.
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Dec 5, 2014, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No, the rates aren't even close to comparable.
This depends on what statistic you're focusing on. If a white is killed, statistically, its going to be a white, as well.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
For black males it's mostly the same, it's the other segments that made the largest shifts downward bringing down the overall rate.
Well that's disturbing if true.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This depends on what statistic you're focusing on. If a white is killed, statistically, its going to be a white, as well.
That is correct, but at 1/8th the rate.

Well that's disturbing if true.
Up to 2009, I don't have the CIA numbers beyond that.
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Dec 5, 2014, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That is correct, but at 1/8th the rate.
Like I said, what specific statistic. What I've seen is BB murders were 93% of deaths while WW murders were like 85%.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:15 PM
 
This seems relevant.
Study: Summer Jobs Reduce Violent Crime Among Disadvantaged Youths | RealClearScience
Give a disadvantaged youth a summer job, and he or she will be much less likely to commit a violent crime. That's the conclusion from a randomized controlled trial just published to the journal Science.

University of Pennsylvania criminologist Sara Heller oversaw the study, which took place in 13 high-violence schools in areas of Chicago. 1,634 students participated in the summer of 2012. Almost all of them were minorities, and more than 90% were on free or reduced lunch. 350 students were randomly assigned to 25-hour per week summer jobs, another 350 were given 15-hour per week jobs along with 10 hours of social-emotional learning classes "aimed at teaching youth to understand and manage the aspects of their thoughts, emotions, and behavior that might interfere with employment," and the remaining students carried on with their lives as normal. Jobs were paid at the Illinois minimum wage and lasted 8 weeks.

With the help of the Chicago Police Department, Heller observed arrest data for the duration of the study and 13 months after. Arrests for violent crime decreased 43% among the two treatment groups compared to the control group. Property and drug-related crimes slightly increased, but the differences were statistically insignificant.


What policy do you craft out of this? (And does anyone care that they smoke a little more weed?)
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:25 PM
 
This is disturbing, and points to a problem that needs further resources added:

"another 350 were given 15-hour per week jobs along with 10 hours of social-emotional learning classes "aimed at teaching youth to understand and manage the aspects of their thoughts, emotions, and behavior that might interfere with employment,""
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
a problem that needs further resources added
I don't see anyone agreeing to giving free mental healthcare to our underprivileged youth anytime soon.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:39 PM
 
If it can be proved that it helps it may be the least expensive way to start fixing the problem. At least better than riots and burning down businesses.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
If it can be proved that it helps it may be the least expensive way to start fixing the problem. At least better than riots and burning down businesses.
It definitely is. But we have people who think free school breakfast and lunches are a bridge too far. And when I say people, I mean politicians in congress.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Not as exhausted as you are keeping up with all your lies. So how about that "requires 2 or more felonies" statement?
My statement was based upon the article by Jeremy Kohler of the STL Post-Dispatch who spoke with Cynthia Harcourt who is the attorney for the Juvenile Officer of St. Louis County Family Court. If you think it's a "lie" then I suggest you take it up with them. I gave a direct quote.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I show you the actual law and the link to it yet you refuse to even accept it. Typical for you.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Who are "they"? Because it isn't in Missouri code MO §211.321, the statute for juvenile court records. The reality is, practically any crime can be in those records, but they'll remain sealed "unless a petition or motion to modify is sustained which charges the child with an offense which, if committed by an adult, would be a class A felony under the criminal code of Missouri". Well?
You want to talk about the actual law itself? Fine! Because naturally you left out some very relevant parts and overlooked others. This is the text of the law VERBATIM. I've just REFORMATTED it to make my point ....

211.321. 1. Records of juvenile court proceedings as well as all information obtained and social records prepared in the discharge of official duty for the court shall not be open to inspection or their contents disclosed, EXCEPT by order of the court to persons having a legitimate interest therein,

UNLESS a petition or motion to modify is sustained which charges the child with an offense which, if committed by an adult, would be a class A felony under the criminal code of Missouri,

OR capital murder, first degree murder,

OR second degree murder

OR except as provided in subsection 2 of this section.

In addition, whenever a report is required under section 557.026, there shall also be included a complete list of certain violations of the juvenile code for which the defendant had been adjudicated a delinquent while a juvenile. This list shall be made available to the probation officer and shall be included in the presentence report. The violations to be included in the report are limited to the following: rape, sodomy, murder, kidnapping, robbery, arson, burglary or any acts involving the rendering or threat of serious bodily harm. The supreme court may promulgate rules to be followed by the juvenile courts in separating the records.

2. In all proceedings under subdivision (2) of subsection 1 of section 211.031, the records of the juvenile court as well as all information obtained and social records prepared in the discharge of official duty for the court shall be kept confidential and shall be open to inspection only by order of the judge of the juvenile court or as otherwise provided by statute. In all proceedings under subdivision (3) of subsection 1 of section 211.031 the records of the juvenile court as well as all information obtained and social records prepared in the discharge of official duty for the court shall be kept confidential and may be open to inspection without court order only as follows:

(1) The juvenile officer is authorized at any time:

(a) To provide information to or discuss matters concerning the child, the violation of law or the case with the victim, witnesses, officials at the child's school, law enforcement officials, prosecuting attorneys, any person or agency having or proposed to have legal or actual care, custody or control of the child, or any person or agency providing or proposed to provide treatment of the child. Information received pursuant to this paragraph shall not be released to the general public, but shall be released only to the persons or agencies listed in this paragraph;

(b) To make public information concerning the offense, the substance of the petition, the status of proceedings in the juvenile court and any other information which does not specifically identify the child or the child's family;

(2) After a child has been adjudicated delinquent pursuant to subdivision (3) of subsection 1 of section 211.031, for an offense which would be a felony if committed by an adult, the records of the dispositional hearing and proceedings related thereto shall be open to the public to the same extent that records of criminal proceedings are open to the public. However, the social summaries, investigations or updates in the nature of presentence investigations, and status reports submitted to the court by any treating agency or individual after the dispositional order is entered shall be kept confidential and shall be opened to inspection only by order of the judge of the juvenile court;

(3) As otherwise provided by statute;

(4) In all other instances, only by order of the judge of the juvenile court.
So it's NOT just Class A Felonies that can open such records to the public. The court can order the release of juvenile records to any persons with a "legitimate interest". Furthermore, if a motion is filed AND the court sustains it then the records related to a Class A felony (e.g. 1st Degree Robbery) OR 1st Degree Murder OR 2nd Degree Murder (which is a Class B Felony) OR "except as provided in subsection 2 of this section" can be opened to the public as well. Perhaps this will be helpful for you ....

or 1 |ôr|
conjunction
1 used to link alternatives: a cup of tea or coffee | are you coming or not? | she couldn't read or write | I either take taxis or walk everywhere | it doesn't matter whether the theory is right or wrong.
So let's dig a little deeper into 211.321 subsection 2 since that's the part you conveniently omitted. I highlighted a portion of it above which sets the context. I'll repeat it here ....

In all proceedings under subdivision (3) of subsection 1 of section 211.031 the records of the juvenile court as well as all information obtained and social records prepared in the discharge of official duty for the court shall be kept confidential and may be open to inspection without court order only as follows:
Now Section 211.031 is the portion of Missouri law that determines the circumstances under which the Juvenile Court has jurisdiction. 211.031 subsection 1 subdivision 3 states the following:

(3) Involving any child who is alleged to have violated a state law or municipal ordinance, or any person who is alleged to have violated a state law or municipal ordinance prior to attaining the age of seventeen years, in which cases jurisdiction may be taken by the court of the circuit in which the child or person resides or may be found or in which the violation is alleged to have occurred; except that, the juvenile court shall not have jurisdiction over any child fifteen years of age who is alleged to have violated a state or municipal traffic ordinance or regulation, the violation of which does not constitute a felony, and except that the juvenile court shall have concurrent jurisdiction with the municipal court over any child who is alleged to have violated a municipal curfew ordinance, and except that the juvenile court shall have concurrent jurisdiction with the circuit court on any child who is alleged to have violated a state or municipal ordinance or regulation prohibiting possession or use of any tobacco product;
This is basically saying that the Missouri Juvenile Court has exclusive jurisdiction for ANY alleged violation of the law where the defendant is less than 17 with the exception of traffic violations; and concurrent jurisdiction with the municipal court for any curfew ordinance or tobacco violations. Are you following? That essentially means any crime. And in such cases 211.321 subsection 2 subdivision 2 states .....

(2) After a child has been adjudicated delinquent pursuant to subdivision (3) of subsection 1 of section 211.031, FOR AN OFFENSE WHICH WOULD BE A FELONY IF COMMITTED BY AN ADULT, the records of the dispositional hearing and proceedings related thereto shall be open to the public to the same extent that records of criminal proceedings are open to the public.
It is telling you right there that the "dispositional hearing" records for any juvenile "adjudicated delinquent" for "a felony" ... note it did NOT say "Class A felony" ... would be open to the public under any proceeding where the Juvenile Court had jurisdiction under 211.031 subsection 1 subdivision 3. The analogy to an adult court scenario would be the records of the "sentencing hearing" for anyone with a "felony conviction" would be a matter of public record. So IOW, if any such "dispositional hearing" records are a matter of public record for Mike Brown, then by law that means he must have been "adjudicated delinquent" for a felony. Not a misdemeanor. A felony. If they are not a matter of public record then we simply don't know if such records even exist because they would be sealed. Period. Which leads us back to this nonsense ....


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Originally Posted by OAW
The concept that you still seem incapable of grasping is that sealed doesn't mean "A juvenile record exists that the state won't reveal." What it means is that "The state will neither confirm nor deny the existence of a juvenile record".

In a phone interview with The Post, Harcourt said that Class A and Class B felonies would have been a matter of public record regardless. She couldn’t confirm or deny whether a juvenile record existed for Brown.
Michael Brown was not convicted of any Class A or Class B felonies in juvenile court - The Washington Post
No, that's not what it means, but that doesn't stop you from reaching, does it? If there wasn't they'd say there wasn't, it would save them a lot of hassle, but, given that there are, and they aren't required to give them up according to the actual law I quoted, they remain sealed, for now.
Reaching? Reaching??!!!! It was right there in black and white. Cited from the Washington Post where Cynthia Harcourt who again is the Attorney for the Juvenile Officer of St. Louis County Family Court was QUOTED as saying that she could "neither confirm nor deny" the very existence of juvenile record for Mike Brown. Here it is again in the NY Times ...

Cynthia Harcourt, a lawyer for the juvenile officer of St. Louis County Family Court, said after the hearing that she could neither confirm nor deny the existence of a juvenile record for Mr. Brown. Missouri state law prohibits the records of most juvenile court proceedings from being released to the public. But she said Mr. Brown had no juvenile cases involving serious felony charges or convictions, including murder, robbery and assault with a deadly weapon. Those felony records would not be required to be confidential and would have been released, but none exist for Mr. Brown, Ms. Harcourt said.
Are you f*cking blind? Can you not read? Are you simply deliberately obtuse? Or is this just more of you pretending to be the "Resident Forum Internet Expert" so you somehow know better than Ms. Harcourt?

OAW
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
]
What policy do you craft out of this? (And does anyone care that they smoke a little more weed?)
I don't know about government policy but the key to solving this problem nationwide lies in the culture of crime and poverty within the communities themselves. If you want to solve the issue, you must bring the communities together, with the police, with the schools, with the parents. If Michael Brown weren't thuggin' around robbing stores none of this would have happened, and thats where we have to start.

Incentivize achievement, put the spotlight on community role models, and ensure the police who're policing those areas are made up of a significant % of people from that area.

The cops need to become less "forceful militaristic law-enforcers" and more "community resources." Unite the people within these communities for common cause.

A few rough ideas:

Provide after (or even in) school programs to clean up the neighborhood, where completion of the program gives you some credits/money towards college. Get people to care.

Put 5-6 cops in each of these schools, not (just) to keep the peace but to build relationships with the students and their parents and start building the bridges between the local government and the people themselves. Make them guidance counselors of sorts, where students can freely discuss their issues at home/in the streets and ask for help when need be without fear of reprisal from the police.

Designate students with absentee parents and set up some kind of intra-school "big brother/big sister" program where older students have a chance to connect with their younger peers for a few hours a week in school, and help steer them towards a productive life.

Put bounties on gang members and drug dealers, available only to long-term residents of the communities themselves.

Legalize weed to cut off a large sect of the criminal element.

I don't know, what do you all think?
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
ensure the police who're policing those areas are made up of a significant % of people from that area.
At the very least, have them meet the people. Socialize somehow.

Not harassing the community for minor offenses would also go a long-way to lessen the tension between community and cops.

Getting the community together and being open to the cops, I'm not sure how you do that. Like you mention their involvement is key.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
No holes in that reasoning.
Indeed.

OAW
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You go on not adding anything to the discussion. How is it amnesty? I don't know because you're taking that secret to the grave.

However, I'll be so benign as to add this for you: A stay of execution isn't the same thing as a pardon.


We'll see if something so simple and to the point actually registered. But honestly I'm not optimistic.

OAW
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This is not something I'd hang my "cops are being racist" or "cops are using excessive force" hat on.

The community needs to be a little more exacting in what it chooses to stand up for. Particularly if you want to win in the court of public opinion.
I can't say that I know much about this particular individual's background since the story just came out. Just that the initial police report seems sketchy. That being said, there is rarely the "perfect victim" in these scenarios. At this point coming on the heels of the Mike Brown and Eric Garner non-indictments people are naturally very sensitive.

OAW
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:10 PM
 
Still silent on the black on black violence OAW? In denial?
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
This is disturbing, and points to a problem that needs further resources added:

"another 350 were given 15-hour per week jobs along with 10 hours of social-emotional learning classes "aimed at teaching youth to understand and manage the aspects of their thoughts, emotions, and behavior that might interfere with employment,""
How about Church on Sunday?
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Still silent on the black on black violence OAW? In denial?
Another myth perpetuated by the white supremicist power structure.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
At the very least, have them meet the people. Socialize somehow.

Not harassing the community for minor offenses would also go a long-way to lessen the tension between community and cops.

Getting the community together and being open to the cops, I'm not sure how you do that. Like you mention their involvement is key.
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
My statement was based upon the article by Jeremy Kohler of the STL Post-Dispatch who spoke with Cynthia Harcourt who is the attorney for the Juvenile Officer of St. Louis County Family Court. If you think it's a "lie" then I suggest you take it up with them. I gave a direct quote.

You want to talk about the actual law itself? Fine! Because naturally you left out some very relevant parts and overlooked others. This is the text of the law VERBATIM. I've just REFORMATTED it to make my point ....

*blurp, blurp, whoosh*
So nothing about "two or more Class A, B, OR C felonies", and I can't find where she ever said that. The fact is, it's based on their own discretion, or "unless a petition or motion to modify is sustained which charges the child with an offense which, if committed by an adult, would be a class A felony under the criminal code of Missouri". So they're sitting on the records.

Reaching? Reaching??!!!! It was right there in black and white. Cited from the Washington Post where Cynthia Harcourt who again is the Attorney for the Juvenile Officer of St. Louis County Family Court was QUOTED as saying that she could "neither confirm nor deny" the very existence of juvenile record for Mike Brown. Here it is again in the NY Times ...
You're always reaching, and always somehow manage to say less while tying more. That's amazing. It says Ms Harcourt "argued against releasing those records, but acknowledged that there were no convictions or active cases for the most serious types of felonies”. If you choose to believe that means there aren't any records, then suit yourself.

Are you f*cking blind? Can you not read? Are you simply deliberately obtuse? Or is this just more of you pretending to be the "Resident Forum Internet Expert" so you somehow know better than Ms. Harcourt?
You'd know all about the blind and deliberately obtuse, you're Stevie Wonder and Curly Joe rolled into one.
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Quite honestly I think there is plenty of bad behavior to go around with this one. Clearly they didn't comply with the officer's instructions. Riding around with open bottles is very risky. And I'd be lying if I said my boys and I never did that when we were teens. But getting out the car with them and stumbling around like a drunken fool is downright stupid. We definitely had sense enough not to do that. Because that's what gets the cops called on you. Assuming all these girls were underage and they had open bottles in the car they don't have a leg to stand on refusing to exit the vehicle. Now once she told the cop she was pregnant one would think that would have given him reason for pause. I mean yeah at that point she's pissed you off but damn. Imagine if that was your teenage daughter. I suppose he was "justified" for dragging her out of the vehicle but the thing is .... just because you CAN do that as an officer doesn't mean you necessarily SHOULD. I would have much preferred to see the officers put more effort into DE-ESCALATING the situation rather than being so aggressive. I mean where were the girls going to go? Did the cops have somewhere else more important to be? Slamming a girl head first into the concrete because you CAN? Who just told you she was pregnant ... truthfully or otherwise? Well that's some BS any way you slice it. And to just stand around and not provide any sort of medical attention after she was KTFO is downright callous. The officers involved should be FIRED in my opinion.

OAW
     
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Dec 5, 2014, 04:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
A few rough ideas:

Provide after (or even in) school programs to clean up the neighborhood, where completion of the program gives you some credits/money towards college. Get people to care.

Put 5-6 cops in each of these schools, not (just) to keep the peace but to build relationships with the students and their parents and start building the bridges between the local government and the people themselves. Make them guidance counselors of sorts, where students can freely discuss their issues at home/in the streets and ask for help when need be without fear of reprisal from the police.

Designate students with absentee parents and set up some kind of intra-school "big brother/big sister" program where older students have a chance to connect with their younger peers for a few hours a week in school, and help steer them towards a productive life.

Put bounties on gang members and drug dealers, available only to long-term residents of the communities themselves.

Legalize weed to cut off a large sect of the criminal element.

I don't know, what do you all think?
Nothing in there I disagree with whatsoever.

OAW
     
 
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