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eidhaw · Dec 25, 2005, 10:53 AM

This past Thursday my husband and I came home to find our door busted open and our 12 inch powerbooks stolen. Fortunately, the insurance company is going to cover replacement costs for our laptops so now the big question is what to replace them with. I really like the portability of the 12 inch but my husband is thinking about going with the performance of the 15. The 15 inch model was recently updated but the 12 inch hasn't been updated since the spring. Does anyone know if any updates will be announced at Macworld in a couple weeks? I would really like to replace the computer as soon as possible but if an update is come out soon then I will wait.

ajprice · Dec 25, 2005, 11:05 AM

eidhaw, no one knows the absolute truth about what will happen at Macworld except Jobs, at the moment its all rumors and guesswork. The grapevine seems to be pointing to any or all of there possibilities - An Intel chip iBook, maybe with a 13" widescreen, an Intel chip Mac mini media centre, and maybe an Intel chip Powerbook, and that when the new iBook is released, the 12" PowerBook will die. I think I would wait and see til Macworld, who knows, the new iBook might be what you want.

eidhaw · Dec 25, 2005, 01:51 PM

Jobs is very good at keeping the announcements pretty quiet but it's good to know what is going through the grapevine. It often has a decent idea of what's coming. From what you said it definitely sounds like something new is coming for laptops so it's probably best to wait.

I thought the 12 inch powerbook was pretty popular. I'm surprised that the line may die. However, if there is a new iBook it may make the 12" PB unnecessary.

tooki · Dec 25, 2005, 01:59 PM

The current iBooks pretty much made the 12" PowerBooks unnecessary. The 12" PB has always been barely more than an iBook in metal clothing -- architecturally, it's an iBook.

tooki

Jawbone54 · Dec 25, 2005, 08:41 PM

I quote just about everyone else - "No one really knows."

Rumors sites have speculated that it will likely be the iBooks and Mac Minis that get the Intel updates first, with the iBook getting a 13" widescreen. Then again, they've also said it's possible that the iMacs and Powerbooks would be getting the upgrades. Nothing is for certain, except there is about a .00001% chance of the Power Macs getting upgraded anytime early than the end of '06.

As for my strictly personal opinion, I'd say the iBook/Mac Mini rumor is most likely. In any case, the 12" PBook should be discontinued.

eidhaw · Dec 26, 2005, 09:21 AM

I guess my wish would be that they upgrade the 12 inch powerbook so architecturally it is much different then the iBook.

Does anyone know what kind of performance the new intel chips will have. Will they be as good as a G5? It seems to me if they are going to put the new chips in the lower end platforms that the performance isn't there yet.

pixiepurls · Dec 26, 2005, 12:37 PM

I don't think the powerbook will die. I had to decide between the PB and the ibook and mostly the desicion was about it looking more classy and being more high end and looking nicer, and less about performance. I'm using it to surf and email, but I still wanted the PB

Each machine appeals to a different market.

b11051973 · Dec 27, 2005, 03:09 PM

I can't wait to see the Intel PowerBooks. I've had my 12" PB for almost 3 years. I'm ready for a new one. I've always liked how small the 12" is. I'm hoping they keep a small option like that in the PB line. If not, 15" PB it will be.

shabbasuraj · Dec 27, 2005, 03:48 PM

PowerBooks... 4 life....!

eidhaw · Dec 27, 2005, 04:36 PM

I really liked my 12" powerbook and I have had both an iBook and a 15" powerbook and out of all of them I prefer the 12" powerbook.

The 15" powerbook was just too big for my liking. I like very small laptops because they are extremely easy to take with me anywhere. I also want as powerful of a laptop that I can get, so that is where the powerbook definitely wins over the iBook. But who knows maybe Apple will do something new with the iBook that will really "wow" me.

If I can manage to go without a computer for 2+ weeks then I will wait for MacWorld. With that said I think I will still get the 12" powerbook. Let's just hope they update the powerbook but maybe not with intel yet...

I'm not sure if I would want to get the intel powerbooks right away. Until applications run natively on the intel processor I don't know if it's really worth the upgrade. I've read something like a 30% performance loss with current PowerPC applications running on the new intel chips.

NosniboR80 · Dec 27, 2005, 06:21 PM

It would be so ridiculous to put Intel chips in the iBook and not the PBs. Who would do that? I mean, I understand that maybe a lot of professional programs aren't going to be updated to work with Intel right away, but how could you have the professional laptop line wallowing in G4 world, while the iBooks are zipping along on Pentium M's. Seems unlikely to me.

wilsonng · Dec 27, 2005, 06:25 PM

You'll definitely see a performance loss with current applications but it depends on the type of program you'll be using.

Programs that aren't as CPU-intensive such as Microsoft Office, iWorks, Firefox, FileMaker, Yahoo Instant Messenger, and such should still be usable with the performance hit being negligible.

I am subscribed to a 4th Dimension database mailing list. One of the main guys working at 4D, Inc. said that running the current 4th Dimension program under Rosetta emulation yielded such good performance, they didn't see the need to pump out a MacIntel version. They will be releasing a MacIntel version of their database program when it hits the next revision.

It is programs like Final Cut Pro, Handbrake, and other CPU-intensive programs that will probably feel the pain......

So if you're using CPU-intensive programs, it's probably best to stick to the current PBs. It will be a while before third party companies release a native Intel version. But then again, most of these companies have had a year to work on their MacIntel developer boxes. They might surprise us.

I'm guessing that many of the Apple programs might already be Intel native. After all, Apple has the inside scoop so maybe Final Cut and Aperture are already on their way to becoming MacIntel native.

tooki · Dec 27, 2005, 07:24 PM

I guess you missed the part of the keynote where they mentioned that all their OS X software has been compiled internally for both PPC and Intel. The apps should be ready already, in time for the release of those machines.

tooki

pat++ · Dec 29, 2005, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

I guess you missed the part of the keynote where they mentioned that all their OS X software has been compiled internally for both PPC and Intel. The apps should be ready already, in time for the release of those machines.

tooki

Adobe/Microsoft apps will NOT be ready when in time for the release of those machines though. I doubt all Apple PRO apps will be available either. It will take a few months at least. What Steve said was that Mac OS X was compiled for both Intel and PPC. iTunes was still PPC only until recently...

brokenjago · Dec 29, 2005, 09:05 PM

Very reliable rumors have stated time and time again that in addition to Mac OS X, iLife and iWork had been completely ported over to Mac OS X for Intel.

yoyoman · Dec 29, 2005, 10:47 PM

If you need it get it now. Why wait. If we all wait no one would ever get any thing. If something comes out tomorrow so it does but than again new things come out all the time.

techrage · Dec 30, 2005, 02:56 PM

i suggest waitng, its onyl about 2 weeks away and you'd regret it if you didnt wait. the 15'' powerbook at this time has issues anyways with the display lines issues and the lower ram slot issue ect ect. Not to mention performance wize its not a bit faster than the last revision, althgouh it does get better battery life. I'd put money on either an intel powerbook or ibook being released, and when it does it might even have virtualization technology enabled which would make dual booting obsolete. Furthermore, at the very leaast you would have the option to dual boot OSX and linux or windows or a combination of the 3, which although you may not need it, coudl definantly come in handy in the future for that 1 app for which there is no OSX version. End user performace should be a lot snappier on the intel cpus than on the powerpc's as well. The powerpc however will still run circles around the intel chip due to its floating point performance, but as far as consumers are cocnerned we should see a good boost in speed when it comes to web browsing, spreadsheets ect. so bascially my advice is WAIT. For some reason i feel like the last powerbook rev was to test out new features to be put in the new intels anywas, like a quick release for feedback purposeds to make the next pb that much better

wilsonng · Dec 30, 2005, 06:17 PM

while dual booting sounds nice, it is really a pain in the @$$.... Having to reboot just to get to that one program in Windows and then reboot to switch back to OS X very annoying and tiresome.

The virtualization technology is a much smoother user experience....

performance is a relative experience. If they are upgrading from an older generation laptop, the jump to the current laptops will be tremendous.

I "upgraded" my wife's 600 Mhz iBook G3 to a 1.5 Ghz Mac Mini over Christmas and the performance upgrade pleased her enough to say wow......

I know the current 12" PBs would be a definite upgrade over my still-alive-and-kicking first generation PB 12" 867 Mhz.

I would be concerned with performance only if I felt the need for speed. That would be users who use CPU intensive programs such as Final Cut, Photoshop, or any of those high-end programs.But if eidhaw doesn't really use those types of programs, then the current PowerBooks are fine and dandy.....

We have the AppleCare warranty anyways to rant about display lines issues and lower ram slot issues.

eidhaw · Dec 30, 2005, 09:46 PM

Well I'm definitely not a power user but I also like to have a machine that can performs well for most apps. So it sounds like I would probably do alright with an intel especially with the knowledge that as software gets updated performance could improve which is generally not the case with new software releases.

Since MWSF is not that far away I'm going to wait. I think I would be pretty disappointed if I went with the current 12" powerbook and then they announce something with more features and/or greater performance for the same amount of money or maybe for even less.

wilsonng · Dec 30, 2005, 10:08 PM

I'm in the same boat.... I'm definitely not a power user but I would like enough power to run iLife (which is a dog on my first generation PB 12" now) and Microsoft Office (usable enough).

Well, it's sad to see that the PB 12" is getting phased out because the iBook 12" has improved that it has eaten away at PB 12" sales.

Hopefully the new iBook will have that rumored 13.3" widescreen and multiple monitor capability. That's my dream machine.

In any case, the recent news about PowerPC emulation on a MacIntel sounds promising so that most PowerPC programs would still be usable until a MacIntel version of our programs comes out.

jeph4e · Dec 31, 2005, 12:33 AM

My (biased) advice is go used!

Never, ever, ever pay for 1st gen stuff. Plus who knows when the major apps will catch up. It took Quark like 5 years fo OS X?

I absolutely enjoyed working and travelling with my 12" I've always had no problems with the small screen because I have LCD at home & office. Plus it is awesome on the road.

This is biased as I'm putting mine up on ebay tomorrow because I'm not forced to work in a PC only program that VPC just can't handle.

But really, the 12" is stable and inexpensive. Buy a maxed out one or a refurb. I think you'll regret going Mactel to early if you use your computer for work.

I have yet to hear about Office for Mactel...anyone hear anything?

Jeff
[email protected]

freakboy2 · Jan 2, 2006, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

The current iBooks pretty much made the 12" PowerBooks unnecessary. The 12" PB has always been barely more than an iBook in metal clothing -- architecturally, it's an iBook.

tooki

arguable.

smaller, lighter, faster, bigger hd, etc. not exactly the same.

close though. achitecturally, the powerbook has always been 1 step ahead of the ibook. not identical. (faster buses etc)..

domymel · Jan 2, 2006, 12:49 PM

i really hope to see new powerbooks! the current lineup...especially the 12" needs a boost (personally what I need most is a better screen).
If revision one of intel-books comes out now, I wait until september to get a revision b model. No way I would buy a revision a book-especially when they put in intel processors for the first time. imo even a revision b is gonna be buggy, but I have learnt that u need to buy one when u need it...

MikeD · Jan 2, 2006, 03:49 PM

So if you're faced with a situation where you need a new PB and the new intelPB's came out, it would be better to go with an older model? Or would it depend on how 'good' the new PB's are?

Mike

Jawbone54 · Jan 2, 2006, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by jeph4e

I have yet to hear about Office for Mactel...anyone hear anything?

Don't expect to hear anything at all at the very least until the Intel Macs are actually announced.

domymel · Jan 3, 2006, 09:56 AM

all right: honestly, who would buy "outdated" hardware...not me. If I had to buy a machine in January and new mactels would be out, of course would I jump on them.
What I meant was the following: if you look at the development of the titaiums for example: rev had a few things which weren't too great (heat, resolution and so on. Obviously they were still great machines, but if I have the choice, I would always wait for a rev b or even c. On the other hand, my housemate has a rev a 12" and it is still running and serves him well (and he is in front of that machine at leat 12 hours a day

.

just my 2 cents anyway.
cheers,
dom

ajprice · Jan 3, 2006, 11:22 AM

I have one of the first models of Quicksilver G4 (in sig below). OK so it wasn't a brand new architecture or anything, but it was a new model at the time. I have had no big problems with it, especially not while it was new. Its now 4 1/2 years old, running the latest OS X, and works fine.

The only problem I have at the moment is the sudden realisation that its an old machine as I tried to play Myst V (a Christmas present) and read the words "Minimum System: 1GHz G4..." on the box! It stll runs and is playable, but not at high resolution with things turned on, so I just don't get the full effect of the graphics.

jcarr · Jan 3, 2006, 01:29 PM

If you still run any Classic apps, there's no need to wait. Order new PowerPC-based PowerBooks today. If you don't run any Classic apps, then wait until after the Steve-note on Tuesday. You'll then have all of the info you need to make an informed decision.

wilsonng · Jan 3, 2006, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by domymel

all right: honestly, who would buy "outdated" hardware...not me.

well, whatever we buy will be "outdated" in 6 months.....

Besides PowerPC coded applications will still be around for a long time to come. Apple kept OS9 support from Mac OS X 10.0 to 10.4 with the classic environment. That's a long time. So software developers will still have intelligent binary programs that will run on both Intels and PPCs.

I can't imagine PPC coded applications going away anytime soon.

Alot of folks here also jump on deals featuring refurbished products and new products from the last revision for the greatest savings. It's still fast enough for most of us anyways...

ScottEllsworth · Jan 7, 2006, 01:27 AM

Thing is, speed is going to matter a bunch. The new Intel cpus are dual cored, and amazingly fast compared with what IBM had to offer. (No slight on IBM - both sides kinda stalled over the last year, but Intel came up with a dual core, low power 65nm chip, which IBM did not invest in.)

This, I would really, really suggest waiting until next Tuesday to see what Apple announces. If they announce a powerbook, shipping in March, then your problem is solved. If they instead annouce a fast replacement for the one you would have bought, then your problem is solved the other way.

The one thing I would not do is buy a new powerbook just a few days before the keynote, given how important powerbooks are to Apple.

Scott

Frans · Jan 7, 2006, 07:41 AM

Wouldn't it be nice to have a VAIO-like PowerBook? Let's call it MacLight, it will weigh about 3 pounds, have 7 hours of battery juice because of the double processor, a bright 13" screen with at least 1200 x 800 pixels, built in webcam, built in EDGE/EV-DO and a DVI-port so you can use a big screen at home and in the office. That would outperform a 13" iBook, wouldn't it?

And since Apple has been recruiting former VAIO-people from Sony, who knows? Would make me a very happy person...

see: http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/30/a...e-first-intel/

Eug Wanker · Jan 7, 2006, 09:49 AM

Does anyone know if any updates will be announced at Macworld in a couple weeks? I would really like to replace the computer as soon as possible but if an update is come out soon then I will wait.

Do we know? No. Do some of us expect it? Yes!

Consider the break-in to have a silver lining. I'm thinking the 12" will be replaced with a 13" widescreen, with Yonah Core Solo.

Originally Posted by tooki

I guess you missed the part of the keynote where they mentioned that all their OS X software has been compiled internally for both PPC and Intel. The apps should be ready already, in time for the release of those machines.

I missed that part of the keynote too then, because I don't remember hearing that.

slugslugslug · 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Do we know? No. Do some of us expect it? Yes!

Consider the break-in to have a silver lining. I'm thinking the 12" will be replaced with a 13" widescreen, with Yonah Core Solo.

Does it seem like the Duo is implausible in such a small form factor? Seems like it would make sense to use the Duo/Solo contrast to differentiate the 13" iBook from the 13" PowerBook (assuming (knock on wood) they both come to pass)

Originally Posted by Tooki

I guess you missed the part of the keynote where they mentioned that all their OS X software has been compiled internally for both PPC and Intel. The apps should be ready already, in time for the release of those machines.

I missed that part of the keynote too then, because I don't remember hearing that.

At about 24:25, he says that they had a rule that "Every project" must be built for PPC and Intel. I, like Tooki, took that to mean every bit of OS X software made at Apple. He is talking in the context of making the OS work, though, so by every project, he may just mean everything that's included with OS X, but not necessarily unbundled apps.

Though I would bet that any Apple software that has an OS X-only history has been complied for Intel from the start. Maybe not the acquired pro stuff, though.

SierraDragon · Jan 7, 2006, 08:52 PM

PB sales are dead, so Apple must announce new PBs. Dual core Yonah chips way faster than existing PBs (even in emulation) are already shipping, so a dual core MacIntel PB is my prediction. Delivery times may or may not make us wait a while. And the 12" is popular so something(s) is(are) likely to replace it, probably wide screen format so wanting another "12 inch" is probably not reasonable since widescreen changes the dimensions.

I will be at Expo in 3 days to see for myself!

mgl · Jan 8, 2006, 09:59 AM

My bet is we'll only get the 15" announced at MW. I think the 12 will be replaced by a 13 based on the iBook architecture, just like the 12 is really an iBook in disguise today. But I don't think the 13 pbook will be announced at MW. I think it will come later.

Simon · Jan 8, 2006, 10:50 AM

I'm thinking there will only be a 13.3" iBook and a 15.2" PowerBook. Apple made the mistake of having them come too close in the past, they won't do that again. I'm guessing both will be announced next week. However, there might still be quite some delay till they actually ship.

Jawbone54 · Jan 8, 2006, 12:41 PM

To speculate is all that we can do at this point. I know everyone has said that already, but it's all right to reiterate it. My plan is to sit here in front of my 1 month old 15-inch PBook, watch Jobs' keynote, hope that the best technology possible comes out, and buy an Intel PBook sometime after the 2nd or 3rd generation Intel 'Books come out.

wtmcgee · Jan 8, 2006, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

To speculate is all that we can do at this point. I know everyone has said that already, but it's all right to reiterate it. My plan is to sit here in front of my 1 month old 15-inch PBook, watch Jobs' keynote, hope that the best technology possible comes out, and buy an Intel PBook sometime after the 2nd or 3rd generation Intel 'Books come out.

Ditto. I just bought a new powerbook about 3 weeks ago,as my old one died after applecare was up. Just decided to take the plunge and get a new one, even though I'm sure we'll see intel based PB's within the next 6-12 months. This way, by the time there is something truly compelling for me to buy, it'll be in it's more mature 2nd or 3rd generation.

tooki · Jan 8, 2006, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by freakboy2

arguable.

smaller, lighter, faster, bigger hd, etc. not exactly the same.

close though. achitecturally, the powerbook has always been 1 step ahead of the ibook. not identical. (faster buses etc)..

The architecture of the 12" PowerBook is identical to that of the iBooks (including the RAM bus speed). This isn't a guess, it's from looking at the developer notes.

Hard disk size is a fairly trivial difference, and 0.08GHz CPU speed difference is undetectable in real-world use.

The iBook is only trivially heavier, and the plastic enclosure is more durable than the metal.

So while the 15" and 17" PowerBooks are decidedly more advanced than the iBooks, the 12" PowerBook really is the same thing as an iBook, just with a 5400RPM hard disk, metal case, and DVI output in place of VGA.

tooki

Jawbone54 · Jan 8, 2006, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

The architecture of the 12" PowerBook is identical to that of the iBooks (including the RAM bus speed). This isn't a guess, it's from looking at the developer notes.

Hard disk size is a fairly trivial difference, and 0.08GHz CPU speed difference is undetectable in real-world use.

The iBook is only trivially heavier, and the plastic enclosure is more durable than the metal.

So while the 15" and 17" PowerBooks are decidedly more advanced than the iBooks, the 12" PowerBook really is the same thing as an iBook, just with a 5400RPM hard disk, metal case, and DVI output in place of VGA.

tooki

This has led to rumors that the 12" PBook will be discontinued, especially if the rumored 13" iBook comes out. The differences are so minimal at this point, only a significant upgrade in ther 12" PBook would warrant its continuance.

In other words, I agree.

ScottEllsworth · Jan 13, 2006, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

This has led to rumors that the 12" PBook will be discontinued, especially if the rumored 13" iBook comes out. The differences are so minimal at this point, only a significant upgrade in ther 12" PBook would warrant its continuance.

Previously, Apple just did not have a lot to work with as far as different speed cpus to differentiate the line. After all, my nearly two year old 17" powerbook was only 10% slower than the best you could buy before today.

Now, with dual and single core processors, they can actually make MacBook and MacBook Pro units fundamentally different. The Intel roadmap says single core chips in a couple of months, which is when we will see mini and iBook updates, so if you are in that market, I might consider waiting.

Scott

shunt · Jan 13, 2006, 06:28 AM

LOCKED AND REPORTED !!!!!!!!

...oh, sorry I got nervous.