[torsoboy]

So this thing has been in the works for the past year, but starting July 1st all Massachusetts residents must buy health insurance or face penaltis by the state that start with losing tax exemption status.

Apparently the state came up with this great idea that every uninsured person between 35 and 39 years old has a minimum of an extra $200 every month and that they (the state) should be able to dictate that that money goes into health insurance. So they called up all of the health insurance providers and asked for a policy that anyone could afford, and they came back with rates that averaged close to $400, so the state asked them for something lower priced and they came back with prices between $180 - $275 for people ages 35-39. The state was thrilled with the new numbers and the law goes into effect in about four months.

Of course the plans are hideous and don't include much coverage at all, and they go up with a person's age as all other plans do. For people between 50-60 the plans cost $500-600 a month.

How in the world did something like this pass! So a person is 60 years old and can barely afford his rent, so then they tack on a $500 mandatory insurance bill (which probably costs more than his rent) and threaten him with higher taxes unless he pays it?? Arg! WTF is wrong with these people?

Insurers slice rates on health premiums - The Boston Globe

[macintologist]

Republicans....

[torsoboy]

Democrats....

see I can do it too

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Republicans....

Massachusetts has a Democrat Governer
The Mass. senate has 35 Democrats and 5 Republicans.
And the congress has 139 Democrats and 19 Republicans.
Those are some powerful Republicans!

Once again, you look like an idiot. Priceless.

[Railroader]

On topic: WOW! TERRIFIC! SICKENING!

[HackManDan]

Health insurance is based on shared risk. If everyone participates, costs will be lower across the board, and that will benefit everyone. These basic plans will cover catastrophic injury costs so that taxpayers won't have to.

The uninsured are crushing the health care system, and while a more comprehensive system is needed, this is a good first step.

[mindwaves]

I don't want to make this thread political, but how much do you pay for health insurance per month?

I pay $22 (pretax) for myself only under my company's plan.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Massachusetts has a Democrat Governer
The Mass. senate has 35 Democrats and 5 Republicans.
And the congress has 139 Democrats and 19 Republicans.
Those are some powerful Republicans!

Once again, you look like an idiot. Priceless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governo...ey#Health_care

[besson3c]

The general problem they are trying to solve seems like a noble cause, perhaps the implementation needs tweaking. If they can provide assistance to those that can't afford the $200/month, that would be ideal.

The problem that this does solve is to potentially alleviate the stress on hospitals and citizens who cannot collect money from patients (the former), and who strain the system by relying on the ER for treatment that could have possibly been avoided with preventative care.

If they can work out the details, making this mandatory may not be a bad thing, providing the system is up to the task of providing care for all citizens. A basic level of car insurance is mandatory, right? Should health be any different? By spreading out the costs, they can potentially eliminate ridiculously high bills that people can't afford.

I know all the personal liberties Republican types will be up in arms about this, but hopefully in time they will be able to take a more pragmatic view on these sorts of issues from an economic and egalitarian perspective.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mindwaves 

I don't want to make this thread political, but how much do you pay for health insurance per month?

I pay $22 (pretax) for myself only under my company's plan.

I have various options, but I have chosen the $1/month plan with an annual deductible of $900

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governo...ey#Health_care

I assure you, he's no Republican. And the plans were initiated by Democrats.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by mindwaves 

I don't want to make this thread political, but how much do you pay for health insurance per month?

I pay $22 (pretax) for myself only under my company's plan.

My wife's employer pays for ours, but I asked and it would cost $1280/m. if we paid for it our selves. That's for a family of four.

[IceEnclosure]

I haven't had health insurance for 8 years. I'm not at a job that offers it. $1/month?? $1280/month for 4 people?? I don't get it.

Anyone in here go out and get their own health insurance? Independent of their employer? What's that like?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by HackManDan 

Health insurance is based on shared risk. If everyone participates, costs will be lower across the board, and that will benefit everyone. These basic plans will cover catastrophic injury costs so that taxpayers won't have to.

The uninsured are crushing the health care system, and while a more comprehensive system is needed, this is a good first step.

Maybe if the insurance companies weren't such a bunch of greedy bastards, people would be more likely to trust that the companies will actually make it a worthwhile investment.

[euchomai]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I haven't had health insurance for 8 years. I'm not at a job that offers it. $1/month?? $1280/month for 4 people?? I don't get it.

Anyone in here go out and get their own health insurance? Independent of their employer? What's that like?

I pay $149.09 out of my own pocket as a self-employed guy. Pretty good coverage with a $500 deductible and $50 co-pay.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The general problem they are trying to solve seems like a noble cause, perhaps the implementation needs tweaking. If they can provide assistance to those that can't afford the $200/month, that would be ideal.

The problem that this does solve is to potentially alleviate the stress on hospitals and citizens who cannot collect money from patients (the former), and who strain the system by relying on the ER for treatment that could have possibly been avoided with preventative care.

If they can work out the details, making this mandatory may not be a bad thing, providing the system is up to the task of providing care for all citizens. A basic level of car insurance is mandatory, right? Should health be any different? By spreading out the costs, they can potentially eliminate ridiculously high bills that people can't afford.

I know all the personal liberties Republican types will be up in arms about this, but hopefully in time they will be able to take a more pragmatic view on these sorts of issues from an economic and egalitarian perspective.

As a "personal liberties Republican type" I have to agree with you that I am "up in arms about this", and I do not see it in the same way that you do. For a person that doesn't own a car they are not required to buy car insurance, and if they do own a car the insurance can be WAY under $200 (which is only this price for the one age group btw, the older group that actually need it are getting raped at ~$500 a month)... mine is $64/month for two cars, one with full coverage and one with liability only. Many many many people do not go to the doctor or hospital yet they are being forced to line the health insurance companies' wallets. And for the majority of those that do go to the doctor (even regularly), having a $4000 family deductable on top of the $200+ monthly payments is not going to save them any money (because they most likely will necer make it past the deductible). So what good is this to the majority that don't have catostrophic accidents, or need surgery, or perhaps generally choose other means of care? None.

I seriosuly hope that you are not so blind as to think that hospital charges or premiums would go down if this went into effect. Hospitals would be making more money and would use it to pay their doctors more, buy newer "needed" equipment, buy fancier floor waxing machine, etc. (there is always going to be somewhere to spend the money if they have it). And the insurance companies would continue to grab every possible dollar that they could and lobby the government with the huge amounts of increased profits to "prove" to them that even though they are now making trillians they deserve it for providing such a noble act of service. Don't worry too much about the health insurance industry, they are already making a LOT of money with the current situation.

So just to be clear, I hate the idea of required health insurance. If they do want to force people to pay for this crap they should have a regulated state owned insurance provider that is 100% non-profit, and state owned non-profit hospitals, and they should re-distribute the unused funds at the end of each year instead of forcing you to buy plans from private companies (hospitals and insurers) that are only in the deal for profit.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I haven't had health insurance for 8 years. I'm not at a job that offers it. $1/month?? $1280/month for 4 people?? I don't get it.

Anyone in here go out and get their own health insurance? Independent of their employer? What's that like?

When I had a lapse of employer-subsided insurance, I called Blue Cross Blue Shield and I got a very basic package for $150/month. Pretty good deal for peace of mind.

[mac128k-1984]

I live in boston and I've been watching this play out, first of all, lets not just blame the democrats, because the plan was introduced by Romney so a republican governor got the ball rolling.

Also this law is for people who are either uninsured or underinsured. That is the working poor, most people who work professional full time jobs will have a plan the exceeds what the state is requiring.

the problem is two-fold as I see it, well three,
First the idea of forcing people to buy insurance, if they couldn't afford it in the first place how are they going to afford a 150 - 300 dollar a month insurance bill?
Second is those who have insurance but it doesn't quite measure up to state minimums, that means they will now need to buy even more expensive insurance even if they don't need it.

I have little to complain about as my insurance is paid by my employer but I feel for those people who have so little now need to choose between health insurance premiums and other staples of life because they cannot afford both.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Maybe if the insurance companies weren't such a bunch of greedy bastards, people would be more likely to trust that the companies will actually make it a worthwhile investment.

Maybe if idiot people wouldn't beg/demand that doctors do stupid stuff ("gimme an antibiotic 'cause I got a cold!") that costs money and does nothing then the insurance companies wouldn't run through so much money without anything to show for it. Or if investors were FORCED to take the actual mission of a company into account before they demanded a huge return on their investment there wouldn't be pressure on these companies to act like greedy bastards (and let their greedy bastard investors hide behind the company).

I think that if Mass was serious about getting people insured, they'd PROVIDE A GROUP PLAN THAT THE UNINSURED AND UNDERINSURED WORKING POOR COULD AFFORD BEFORE THEY MANDATED THEIR INCREASED POVERTY. But that's just me.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I think that if Mass was serious about getting people insured, they'd PROVIDE A GROUP PLAN THAT THE UNINSURED AND UNDERINSURED WORKING POOR COULD AFFORD BEFORE THEY MANDATED THEIR INCREASED POVERTY. But that's just me.

I don't think they were serious, Romney wanted to show he did something while governor. He did nothing as governor, and the few things he did try were quickly shot down by the democratically controlled state senate and house. If he was going to run for president he needed to show that accomplished something here in Mass, but he was too busy trying look like a presidential candidate then being governor.

[Big Mac]

Aren't such policies the reason why it's called Taxachussetts? At least those who cannot stand it can move to a different state. As for me, while I hate insurance I view it as a necessary evil that cannot be avoided, so I am getting my insurance license. . .

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Aren't such policies the reason why it's called Taxachussetts? .

Yep, and now governor Patrick wants to close some corporate tax loopholes which sound all well and good, except that the increase cost of business will not be born by the businesses but by us the consumer. Additionally he wants municipalities to be able to raise their own taxes (so he can he didn't raise taxes) either way its going to get even more expensive to live in the state (and they wonder why we're losing people, and jobs).

[macintologist]

I'd much rather live in New Hampshire, the free state.

[sek929]

This is exactly what Mass needs

Employment is down and we have a huge budget crisis.

Let's screw over the working class some more, yay!

NH is sounding better and better every day. I could buy a 300,000 dollar MA house for like 150K up there.

[besson3c]

Damn, I glazed over the part about the deductibles... This changes m thinking on this

[Dakar²]

This strikes me as the sort of thing that could get overturned in court.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

This strikes me as the sort of thing that could get overturned in court.

You sig doesn't conform to the signature guidelines.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

You sig doesn't conform to the signature guidelines.

I know, I caught it and fixed it. Reload the images if need be.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by sek929 

This is exactly what Mass needs

Employment is down and we have a huge budget crisis.

Let's screw over the working class some more, yay!

NH is sounding better and better every day. I could buy a 300,000 dollar MA house for like 150K up there.

That's one way of looking at it... or you could look at it like you are already being screwed over by the people that don't have insurance. They become injured, rack up a HUGE bill (one they could never pay) and then are forced to declare bankruptcy.

Having insurance would at least give a person a fighting chance not to be forced into bankruptcy. Since 1981, there has been a 2200% increase in medical bankruptcies.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

I know, I caught it and fixed it. Reload the images if need be.

Actually, it still doesn't. You have two images in your sig. Sure, you could argue that it's "just a line of type" but I think the sig guidelines are rather clear about that.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

Actually, it still doesn't. You have two images in your sig. Sure, you could argue that it's "just a line of type" but I think the sig guidelines are rather clear about that.

Does it matter? Please tell me how and why it does.

Thanks!

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

Actually, it still doesn't. You have two images in your sig. Sure, you could argue that it's "just a line of type" but I think the sig guidelines are rather clear about that.

Turn me on a technicality if you feel like it. No one complained for the first week.

[besson3c]

Oh my burning eyes! An extra line of text I have to scroll through! I must not waste another ounce of energy on my scroll wheel, because it makes my lounging around in a lounge far less productive! This is serious business, and I do not want to have my precious time wasted because of that extra line of text. You are infringing upon my lounging around, please dispense of that extra text IMMEDIATELY, or I will be forced to spend my time reporting you on this extra line of text, and that would occupy my time too. You don't want that, do you?

You guys need to learn how to lounge and hang out properly, or you'll never advance yourself in the MacNN pecking order.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Oh my burning eyes! An extra line of text I have to scroll through! I must not waste another ounce of energy on my scroll wheel, because it makes my lounging around in a lounge far less productive! This is serious business, and I do not want to have my precious time wasted because of that extra line of text.

You guys need to learn how to lounge and hang out properly, or you'll never advance yourself in the MacNN pecking order!

It's not cuz its text, its because its an IMG of text, though they take up the same amount of space...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

It's not cuz its text, its because its an IMG of text, though they take up the same amount of space...

I think this is the absolute pinnacle of anal-retentiveness...


Hey, did MacNN authorize that emoticon? Excuse me, I have some business to attend to Dakar, I'll talk to you later...

[mitchell_pgh]

Oh no... besson3c called me anal-retentive. Typical "the rules don't apply to me" response.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

Oh no... besson3c called me anal-retentive. Typical "the rules don't apply to me" response.

I said your response was anal-retentive, and for good reason, no?

Stop dissecting me, and think about what I said based on its own merits.

[andi*pandi]

huh. I didn't know about this. luckily the perks of working for a medical association is excellent health benefits. I pay $140/mo for health/dental/life and have $10 copays.

this will suck for those who can't afford even this lower-cost insurance. you shouldn't have to choose between paying insurance or food.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

That's one way of looking at it... or you could look at it like you are already being screwed over by the people that don't have insurance. They become injured, rack up a HUGE bill (one they could never pay) and then are forced to declare bankruptcy.

Having insurance would at least give a person a fighting chance not to be forced into bankruptcy. Since 1981, there has been a 2200% increase in medical bankruptcies.

So you are saying this new LAW is because they care for the people that are declaring bankruptcy? That's laughable.

Did you ever think that it is because of the huge increase of costs of medical help/insurance that is contributing to this heightened bankruptcy rate and not the other way around?

ParaPundit: US Medical Spending Reaches 16% Of GDP
"Rising health care costs, already threatening many basic industries, now consume 16 percent of the nation's economic output"

"The health care increase of 7.9 percent in 2004 was almost three times the overall national inflation rate, which was 2.7 percent. The average hourly wage for workers in private companies was essentially unchanged that year, according to the U.S. Department of Labor."

"A prescription drug spending increase of 8.2% is seen as good news because it is the first non-double digit increase since 1994."

So the cost of medicine and medical help is raising multiple times faster than the national inflation rate... sounds like a problem to me.

Don't give me "the doctors' insurance is getting expensive" crap, I see their huge houses (and vacation homes, and boats, etc.)... you can't tell me they aren't making any money because of lawsuits. And don't even start to think that the insurance companies are there to help you as an average joe; they are a business and their primary goal is to make money, not pay for claims. As if these new policies will even cover anything that would force bankruptcy .

[nonhuman]

Two groups of people for whom this makes no sense:
1. Poor people (just because the law says they have to, doesn't meant they can actually find that extra $200/mo)
2. Rich people (if they can afford to pay their own medical bills without the help of insurance, there's no reason to force them to have insurance if they don't want it)

Yeah, great idea.

[torsoboy]

I never thought about the rich people, but you have a good point there.

Another group of people is the group that use health savings plans in place of health insurance of this type.

And still another is people that do not believe in going to the doctor but would rather use "natural" or "alternative" remedies.

[BLAZE_MkIV]

All you Ma people can come as long as you agree to vode against any tax or socialist agendias. Its bad enough you raise our housing prices next you'll make it so we have to add a sales or property tax.

[TailsToo]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

2. Rich people (if they can afford to pay their own medical bills without the help of insurance, there's no reason to force them to have insurance if they don't want it)

Yeah, great idea.

Ummmm... let me tell you, if one of these rich people should get a serious illness, they would be rich no longer.

My mother has Leukemia, and has been in and out of the hospital for almost a year now. So far, her medical bills are almost $1.5 million dollars. It costs $8500 a day just for the room. A bone marrow transplant attempt costs at least half a million dollars.

Lucky my dad has good insurance or they would have been totally ruined long ago.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by TailsToo 

Ummmm... let me tell you, if one of these rich people should get a serious illness, they would be rich no longer.

My mother has Leukemia, and has been in and out of the hospital for almost a year now. So far, her medical bills are almost $1.5 million dollars. It costs $8500 a day just for the room. A bone marrow transplant attempt costs at least half a million dollars.

Lucky my dad has good insurance or they would have been totally ruined long ago.

Ok, let me put it this way. The more rich people who decide to shoulder their medical costs them selves, the lower the cost of insurance for those who actually need it.

And obviously medical treatment is expensive, that's why I specified rich people and not middle-class people. As in multi-millionaires and billionaires (there's probably more of them than you think).

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by TailsToo 

Ummmm... let me tell you, if one of these rich people should get a serious illness, they would be rich no longer.

My mother has Leukemia, and has been in and out of the hospital for almost a year now. So far, her medical bills are almost $1.5 million dollars. It costs $8500 a day just for the room. A bone marrow transplant attempt costs at least half a million dollars.

Lucky my dad has good insurance or they would have been totally ruined long ago.

You have a very low definition of "rich".

A truly rich person would shrug a 1.5 mil. hospital bill. Hell, he'd probably get the treatment for free because he would buy a wing of the hospital and start making a profit from the deal.

[jebjeb]

Help me out here, guys. I have heard plenty of things about how health insurance works in the US but I didn't realise it was such a high cost. I need this put into context so I (and probably most other non-US residents) can understand it.

What percentage is your monthly private health insurance of your pre-tax income? Also, what is your income tax like?

An example: say you earn $5000 pre tax per month. Maybe you get $3500 of that in the hand plus then pay $500 out of this for health insurance. This suggests you are paying 10% of your pre tax income on health insurance and are taxed at around 30%.

I don't need exact figures, just an idea of what percentage of your income goes to health insurance and what your rough overall tax rate is.

Also, if you don't have insurance but need a life saving (involuntary) operation or treatment, will they do it or wait until you came up with the cash?

[IceEnclosure]

I was in a car accident, and didn't have health insurance. They stitched me up, scanned my head, did all the things to get me back in working order and sent me out the door with a 15,000 medical bill. The other driver was at fault, so after the lawsuit worked out, I paid the med. bill.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

You have a very low definition of "rich".

Or just a healthy definition. How far must your outcome outstrip your needs before you become 'rich'?

Originally Posted by Railroader 

A truly rich person

There's a term I didn't expect out of you.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by TailsToo 

Ummmm... let me tell you, if one of these rich people should get a serious illness, they would be rich no longer.

My mother has Leukemia, and has been in and out of the hospital for almost a year now. So far, her medical bills are almost $1.5 million dollars. It costs $8500 a day just for the room. A bone marrow transplant attempt costs at least half a million dollars.

Lucky my dad has good insurance or they would have been totally ruined long ago.

The problem I have with this example is that they are charging $8500 a day for the room. WTF for? When I took my wife in for a 20 moinute surgery they made her stay in two different rooms while waiting, and then charged us $1000 a room even though all we did was sit in the room and wait for them to move us to the next waiting room. There was no checkups or anything while we were in those rooms... just sitting there waiting till they moved us on. Then the surgery took 10-20 minutes and the doctor charged us another thousand, and then they put us in a "recovery room" for 3 hours and charged us another thousand.

For having a baby the doctors around here charge an upfront $1800for the "pre-delivery" fee. This includes about 10 20 minute visits. Then they charge you for the after delivery visits while you are still in the hospital, and then the hospital charges you $800 a day to lay in one of their rooms, and then they charge you for a full hours evevry time the nurses come in and say "how you feeling?" They even have the gall to charge you for TWO visits each time they visit after you have had the baby. So they come in and say, "how you doing?", and then turn to the baby and say "and how is baby doing?", and then they charge you for two hour long visits on your final visit for each time they do this. Oh, and we can't forget the guy who gives the wife the epideral... that's another $800 for a five minute visit. It freakin' ridiculous.

A large part of the problem lays with the medical institutes I think. We wouldn't all be "needing" $600/month insurance if they didn't rape you at the hospital. Oh, and this was a "not for profit" hospital.

[andi*pandi]

and to complete the circle of logic, the hospital will say they need to charge that amount to cover those they do work on who have no insurance. So they're charging those of us who can pay for those of us who can't. And it costs more for those without insurance than those with, because the insurance companies negotiate a "group rate" kind of thing with hospitals and doctors.

::hugs insurance policy::

jebjeb, my monthly pre-tax salary is ~$4000, my after-tax/insurance/deductions salary is ~$2800, of which my monthly family health insurance is $140. My employer picks up the rest of the ~$625 tab for insurance. 30% of my income goes to taxes and deductions. 3.5% of my income goes toward health insurance.