[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by naphtali:
Great! You're all grown up now! But I guess you ought to have learnt that while it's nice to have individualism, should everyone have their own moral code, society wouldn't work out so fancy. And besides, by even participating in the seeding process, you've agreed to comply with the NDA, in which case it's not really up to you to decide what's right and wrong, no?

The point really is, if you don't accept a law, don't have anything at all to do with it.

Anyhow, party on, enough with the NDA already... Even the mods approve of this discussion so there's little point in trying to spread some gospel...

P.S: Not to flame you, but your argument that using these builds is fine as long as you're buying the final sounds like complete bs to me. Firstly, you aren't legally given access to it, and for good reason if you bother to think. Also, it's very much like premarital sex and the likes... Well I wouldn't know what would fall in place with your moral code. But whatever it is, examine what you deem unacceptable and I'm sure you'll fine such a similar example. Double standards then?

I hate to drag this out... but this guy is really starting to piss me off. Since a couple people suggested it in the Panther discussion thread, I decided to start a topic where everyone can argue the morality of discussing Panther without further derailing the main thread. So, if you have a moral objection to talking about Panther, or you think you're justified, spit it out in here to save the poor souls looking for actual details having to wade through the slop.

A few things.

1) I said I DIDN'T have Panther... never touched it, installed it, and only used it briefly on a friend's machine (a LEGITIMATE copy mind you). Therefore, your precious NDA and laws don't apply to me IN ANY WAY. I can talk about Panther all I want, as can many others here.

2) I can't think of ONE good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to run Panther on my machine if I'm going to be the first in line to buy it at the Apple store the day it's released. Doesn't hurt Apple... they still get my $129... doesn't hurt anyone here, because if I DID have it I wouldn't ask for support on an unsupported OS, that's MY responsibility, and MY problem. So what, exactly, is your "good reason" for me not having it?

3) I'm not saying everyone should flagrantly ignore all laws and live by their own code... however there ARE certain things I can/will do (speeding is a perfect example) when I deem such things to be appropriate in a given situation.

You're looking at things too much from the opposite end of the fence. Just because something is legal doesn't always mean you should do it... we can all agree on that. By the same logical extension, just because something is ILLEGAL doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULDN'T do it. It means that someone passed a law against it or a law was interpreted as such by others.... ultimately personal actions are decided entirely by personal choice (free will), end of story. Just because YOU think something is right/wrong doesn't make it so... same goes for me. If you follow every single law of your particular locale GREAT (though I HIGHLY doubt you do), but don't act like the only "good" path in life is to blindly obey every law/regulation and rule that is handed your way.

And not to flame you (or insult anyone's personal beliefs since I actually have a lot of respect for self control and since my whole point is about personal choice and free will)... but PREMARITAL SEX... are you JOKING? I think perhaps I understand the root of the problem now... and as such am done discussing this issue. If you'd like to adjust your expectations of human behavior to be a bit more inline with the MODERN world perhaps we can have a nice logical discussion on morality.

[MacGorilla]

[version]

It's a question of perception I think. If Apple sees that their product is being distributed on a massive scale, then, they might just pull back from releasing pre-release software to a wider developer network.
Also, if that perception is backed up with lower sales figures for their OS, based on some people who have the view that, 'Hey, if i can download the beta, then I'm gonna get the full thing for free when it comes out', then I'm sure that Apple will have something up their sleeves, like software keys, overall, it doesn't really help the world with mass pirating, and in-depth discussion of the OS.
I'm as guilty as the next person, I've einstalled Panther a few times, and thought, 'fcuk this, I can't use this cause it's so buggy', I went back to the safety, and stability of Jaguar. I'm quite happy to just let Apple make a few announcements about the up-coming new OS, and let it be until it comes out, a nice surprise.

[entrox]

It's not so much the massive discussion and distribution of Panter (after all, you can get nearly every software illegally), but more the unwillingness to understand the concept of contracts. People seem to spit on any agreements and actually try to discourage developers to comply with the contractual obligations using stupid analogies or excuses ("It's not really illegal, it's in the best interest of Apple!", "I will pay for the final, so I am entitled to the developer previews!" etc. etc.)

The other thing, which can anger people (particularly developers), is the fact that most of the discussion is based on pirated copies. ADC members have to pay for them through being a Select/Premier member, having registered for WWDC or having purchased seed keys. Last time I checked, piracy was not allowed on this forum.

We all know what happened to the Safari seeding program, don't we? You know the saying: curiosity killed the cat. I don't really care, I'll buy Panther the day it comes out and I like glancing at new screenshots. But you should understand, that this whole discussion/distribution business is not the way Apple wants it to be.

[MrNo]

mmmmmmm
I like premarital sex ...

[entrox]

Originally posted by MrNo:
I like premarital sex ...

Who doesn't?

[brainchild2b]

we should start talking about other things here, simply because people who start these threads should have a taste of their own medicine. At least now we can refer them to go post in this thread instead.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by MrNo:
mmmmmmm
I like premarital sex ...

Hehe, me too...

I also like to know what to expect in the new OS releases... have something to look forward to/salivate over (like Expose).

And, to respond further to entrox..

Firstly, I GREATLY appreciate your honest/straightforward/NON-THREATENING comments... a nice change from the Panther forum, if all there were so level-headed perhaps it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.

You're right, absolutely. Piracy IS something that isn't allowed here. If you'll notice though, it's not a thread discussing where/how to get Panther... anyone who wants it badly enough can figure that out for themselves with relative ease.

I just can't wrap my brain around what's so bad with wanting a sneak peak at the OS. Granted, those folks who get the preview for free and then go on to do the same with the release version are DEFINITELY hurting the developers and SHOULD feel bad about their actions. I can even understand how ADC select members who paid (sometimes thousands) of dollars would be a little ticked off to an extent...

Having said that, ADC Select members don't pay that premium JUST for developer seeds. They do it for many other services/features that they require as SERIOUS developers.

Those people who follow rules/laws just for the sake of following them (because they're there) will develop two situations (and I'm not just talking about developer seeds here... this is more directed at naphalti and the like whose unwavering devotion to regulation makes me cringe and die a little inside):

1) They will NEVER be a leader (or at the very least an effective one) because leadership denotes interpretation of a situation and adaptation given the "team's" best interests.

2) They won't enjoy life much. I'm not saying you have to disobey to have fun... far from it. What I'm saying is that blind obedience breeds complacence, which stifles innovation/progress in the long run.

I just felt that necessary to get out, given the VERY hostile climate of this forum recently surrounding this "Panther controversy".

My final point... mind your own business folks. If someone's downloading of a pirated copy of Panther personally effects you (i.e., you're on the development team and the success of the product effects your personal income or future lack thereof on failure) then by all means speak up and tell them what for. If not, then SHUT THE F**K UP ABOUT IT (at least in the Panther threads). They'll be there in the morning no matter how much you complain and evangelise, so get over it. If you feel like bringing your argument against talking about Panther over to this thread, by all means do it. Maybe we can even start a counter to see how many times the term "NDA" is used!

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
we should start talking about other things here, simply because people who start these threads should have a taste of their own medicine. At least now we can refer them to go post in this thread instead.

That's exactly why I started the thread in the first place...

Have you actually tried to sift useful info out of the current Panther thread? It's near impossible... I was one of the ones arguing about it, and when I went to reply to naphalti again I realized I was only contributing to the derailment, and decided to try and do something about it

Now everyone can simply throw their bitching in here and leave the Panther threads alone, because they AREN'T going anywhere

[DaGuy]

I am glad to see the amount of time some us Mac users have in our hands.

I fail to see the moral issue at stake.



If Apple wanted to shoot these Panther threads (which are all over various Mac forums) then they would've done so already, no questions asked. That is what the fine print on the Panther prereleases is about. If they haven't acted on it, it is because they agree with it since the publicity and excitement benefits the product launch.

Haven't they silenced sites before with threats of legal action?

Are there lawyers slacking? I don't think so that's just us.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by DaGuy:

Haven't they silenced sites before with threats of legal action?

Are there lawyers slacking? I don't think so that's just us.

Exactly...

Remember when the G5 specs were "accidentally" leaked on the Apple store for a few hours... All the websites who stored cached copies of the offending images were sent C&D's THAT DAY.

Apple's legal department isn't stupid, nor is it blind. If they cared about these threads you are in fact correct, they'd be dead THAT DAY.

You've brought up an excellent point. The moral police infecting this board like a plague need to take note of one VERY important fact:

Apple PAYS a legal team to investigate/prosecute IP violations. That's THEIR job, not YOURS. Know your role, and leave it up to Apple to care whether or not people discuss Panther.

[mitchell_pgh]

I see nothing wrong with it... yah, it may not be legal, but it's not exactly kidnapping a baby!

I think people need to cool their jets. Apple can't keep this kind of stuff under wraps. If they did:
a) the OS would have a ton of bugs
b) software would take forever to gain compatibility with the new OS
c) Apple would receive zero feedback

It isn't like these people are taking a piece of software off the shelf and burning a copy of it for their friend. If nothing else, they are providing feedback to Apple.

But I bet most (if not all) of them will go out and buy 10.3 when it is available.

[entrox]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I think people need to cool their jets. Apple can't keep this kind of stuff under wraps. If they did:
a) the OS would have a ton of bugs
b) software would take forever to gain compatibility with the new OS
c) Apple would receive zero feedback

Ha! Those are exactly the reasons for the seed program. But, you have to pay for it and sign certain contracts, because the final version will cost $129. If you remember, there have been quite a few public betas (Safari, iSync, iChat AV...) for free stuff from Apple, but the Panther developer previews aren't part of that. Get over it. I understand the curiosity, but playing by the rules should be a given, not something seen as "stupid".

[JLL]

"We are aware that there have been breaches of confidentiality with the previous seed. Be advised that these leaks may result in Apple limiting the scope of future seeding or the suspension of future seeding altogether."

And no, they usually don't say that in every seed note.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Notice the person who started the whole morality mess in the other thread hasn't commented here yet.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by entrox:
Ha! Those are exactly the reasons for the seed program. But, you have to pay for it and sign certain contracts, because the final version will cost $129. If you remember, there have been quite a few public betas (Safari, iSync, iChat AV...) for free stuff from Apple, but the Panther developer previews aren't part of that. Get over it. I understand the curiosity, but playing by the rules should be a given, not something seen as "stupid".

Ah yes... that is true... but I don't think anyone sees playing by the rules as "stupid". The only stupidity I see in the matter is when someone takes it upon themselves to lecture someone else for using/discussing Panther (regardless of their copy's origins). Their fanatical devotion to the "rules" results in a situation very reminiscent of being "told on" on the playground in grammar school. Live and let live would be the proper cliche.

If someone wants to use an illegal copy of Panther it is between them and Apple... PERIOD. If you aren't Apple or that person, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. [EDIT] Unless, as pointed out, you happen to be a law enforcement official, in which case it's your business if Apple decides to press charges

As long as the MacNN mods have no issue with a discussion taking place, and Apple doesn't send them a C&D telling them to remove it, it's a VALID discussion, whether you agree with/like it or not.

[entrox]

Originally posted by Mrjinglesusa:
Notice the person who started the whole morality mess in the other thread hasn't commented here yet.

It's a sad state of affairs if "complying with contracts" or "playing by the rules" is now called "morality mess". When the seeding program gets cut, we ALL lose.

[JLL]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
Their fanatical devotion to the "rules" results in a situation very reminiscent of being "told on" on the playground in grammar school. Live and let live would be the proper cliche.

It's not fanatical devotion to rules - it's the fear of loosing the seeds.

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
If someone wants to use an illegal copy of Panther it is between them and Apple... PERIOD. If you aren't Apple or that person, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

If someone beats another one it is between them and the police.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by JLL:
"We are aware that there have been breaches of confidentiality with the previous seed. Be advised that these leaks may result in Apple limiting the scope of future seeding or the suspension of future seeding altogether."

And no, they usually don't say that in every seed note.

This has everything to do with the distribution of Panther and NOTHING to do with discussion of it.

FACT: Every OS release, even DPs, WILL be pirated eventually. There is no countermeasure in the world short of not distributing software AT ALL that can completely prevent a group of motivated people from pirating/distributing OS releases.

FACT: People WILL discuss a previewed OS, especially dealing with the rather fanatical fanbase Apple seems to carry. If not MacNN, then Usenet or Spymac or Macslash or Macrumors or any of the other countless outlets for such discussion.

Apple is perhaps trying to slow the rate of distribution to the masses, won't argue that... but stopping DISCUSSION about the previews is not only completely unrealistic, but STUPID from a business "word of mouth" advertising perspective.

[entrox]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
Their fanatical devotion to the "rules" results in a situation very reminiscent of being "told on" on the playground in grammar school.

Look, you certainly remember the Safari fiasco, don't you? Seeding was cut down because of extreme leakage. People with access to the latest release notes indicate the same is likely to happen to Panther. The vocal few who insist in discussing leaks will perhaps spoil it for the people who really /need/ the seeds. And then we all lose, not just you because you can't discuss the newest features. I think developers are justified in complaining about the situation.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by entrox:
Look, you certainly remember the Safari fiasco, don't you? Seeding was cut down because of extreme leakage. People with access to the latest release notes indicate the same is likely to happen to Panther. The vocal few who insist in discussing leaks will perhaps spoil it for the people who really /need/ the seeds. And then we all lose, not just you because you can't discuss the newest features. I think developers are justified in complaining about the situation.

Seeding was reduced (and later restored) for Safari because of DISTRIBUTION of the seeds, NOT discussion.

If Apple cuts Panther seeding it will be because of the same widespread DISTRIBUTION. Discussion will take place no matter what. Apple isn't stupid, they're not going to chastise the entire development community because someone discussed a preview build of Panther on MacNN that they probably didn't even acquire legally. Ever hear the expression "cutting off your foot to spite your leg"?

[entrox]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
This has everything to do with the distribution of Panther and NOTHING to do with discussion of it.

Every software gets pirated and that's a fact of life. BUT, the discussion here makes that fact much too visible: my personal impression is, that nearly everybody on this board has pirated Panther. Perhaps there are more pirate copies of Photoshop or Toast than of Panther, but from looking at Mac fora, it looks like the distribution is massive.

If you people would just get the newest builds from BitTorrent and shut up, then perhaps there would be no thinking at Apple. But every freaking Mac site has either screenshots of leaked Panther builds or discussions. What should the responsible people think?

[Dale Sorel]

I find it difficult to use the word moral and Internet in the same sentence

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally posted by entrox:
It's a sad state of affairs if "complying with contracts" or "playing by the rules" is now called "morality mess". When the seeding program gets cut, we ALL lose.

If I got Panther by means other than Apple, what "contract" did I sign? Point your arguments towards the developers who are LEAKING the seeds, not the people who take advantage of the leaks.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Mrjinglesusa:
If I got Panther by means other than Apple, what "contract" did I sign?

The one you clicked I Agree to.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by JLL:
The one you clicked I Agree to.

DOES the Panther license actually include anything about the source from which you obtained it? I don't have it to verify myself.

At any rate I seriously doubt it includes a full NDA on the contents of the OS, which means if you obtained it illegally (without signing an NDA) you did in fact NOT sign a contract forbidding its discussion.

Other than that... if you obtained it illegally then the contents of the license don't really mean a thing since I'm sure the company who's licensing you the software (not just Apple, any company) would be a bit more concerned with the actual act of piracy rather than your adherence to the license agreement

[ASIMO]

Originally posted by entrox:
Who doesn't?

Superchicken and his/her ilk?

[Gul Banana]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
DOES the Panther license actually include anything about the source from which you obtained it? I don't have it to verify myself.

I'm probably allowed to post this, since you can read the license agreement without agreeing to it:

D. You agree that the pre-release Apple Software licensed hereunder and all information disclosed by Apple to you that relates to Apple's products, designs, business plans, business opportunities, finances, research, development, know-how, personnel, or third-party confidential information disclosed to you by Apple, will be considered and referred to collectively as "Confidential Information."

...

You agree not to disclose, publish, or disseminate Confidential Information to anyone other than those of your employees and contractors with a demonstrable need to know who have binding, written, confidentiality obligations to you that protect such Confidential Information against unauthorized disclosure. You further agree to take reasonable precautions to prevent any unauthorized use, disclosure, publication, or dissemination of Confidential Information. You agree not to use Confidential Information otherwise for your own or any third party's benefit without the prior written approval of an authorized representative of Apple in each instance.

So, if end user license agreements are legally enforceable - quite a big if, I suppose - then any and all discussion of Panther by someone who has installed it and clicked "Agree" is completely illegal.

The questions then become:
a) Is a EULA a valid contract?
b) Is it irrelevant that it's illegal?

And I'm not touching those

[brachiator]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
Just because something is legal doesn't always mean you should do it... we can all agree on that. By the same logical extension, just because something is ILLEGAL doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULDN'T do it. It means that someone passed a law against it or a law was interpreted as such by others.... ultimately personal actions are decided entirely by personal choice (free will), end of story. Just because YOU think something is right/wrong doesn't make it so... same goes for me. If you follow every single law of your particular locale GREAT (though I HIGHLY doubt you do), but don't act like the only "good" path in life is to blindly obey every law/regulation and rule that is handed your way.

Ahhh, I haven't seen this much amateur political philosofizin' since the good old days of the first "Ambrosia's New Expiring License Scheme" thread!

I think that at base its a person's duty to follow the law at almost all times. This is neither "blind" nor mindless -- on the contrary, it is mindful and in service of a much greater good than a free or early copy of Panther. The whole society is kept together on respect for the rule of law and the agreement to abide by the laws, especially the laws that protect people and their private property.

There aren't enough cops (or Apple lawyers!) to prevent or prosecute much more than a handful of people who steal. Its not the enforcers who keep everyone from stealing each other's stuff, but we agree ourselves not to do it. Golden rule, writ large. Sure, maybe we don't steal because we're afraid of getting caught (enforcement) but it is still our choice.

Yes, there's a place for the individual moral code -- and it is at the extremes of life, death, war, peace, civil rights, lynchings, foreign occupiers, salt, and teaching the young of Athens! Civil disobedience is not for getting software for free or ahead of time (unless it is, like, pharmaceutical design software you need to engineer patent-violating AIDS drugs to save your nation). Please don't try to dress up swiping Panther off of Carracho or Hotline or Gnutella wiht some lofty moral code. PIrate if you wanna pirate -- and sure, take comfort in the fact that its a minor theft and you're unlikely to be caught -- but don't come off like a cyber-Thoreau, or MLK, Gandhi, or even Skylarov or the DeCSS gang. If you advocate violating the law for something as unimportant as Panther -- where there is no higher moral purpose, you not only violate the social contract but denigrate and adulterate the concept of civil disobedience, its power, and the many brave people who have died in its service.

If there's any political philosophy that "pirating Panther is a moral imperative" (or even morally neutral) supports, its Nihilism, not even Anarchism (which presupposes some moral order). It sure as hell does damage to the kind of liberal political regime we live under in the States and the other Western democracies.

I don't, personally (professionally, I'm a lawyuh, so that's stickier ) have a particular problem if you plot, plan, prepare, ponder, promote, propose, pine, prefer, or are predisposed to perpetrate the pirating or plunder of Panther, and you won't find me in that other thread pissing and moaning. But we've got troops dying in the field, purportedly to protect the democratic system and rule of law (and out there because of breakdowns and weakenings of that system) so I just couldn't let this one go by.

[kndonlee]

I'm sure Apple does not want everyone obtaining copies. However I dunno if Apple can do much about sending C&D to forums that have an off comment about using such and such service to obtain Panther. Those comments are what Apple really wants to most likely limit, but to do that would make it seem like Apple won't let people discuss Panther. And that's bad image. Since MacNN and other public discussion BBS' have made it clear that their forums should not contain any content regrading pirating, I think Apple is trusting the moderator's of each site to use their own practical judgement regarding certain posts.

Those who incriminate themselves by stating they got it off of so and so, I think it doesn't make as much sense for Apple to go after every single individual. Even the RIAA isn't going after every single individual. They are after the bigger guns so that small individuals don't have a means of obtaining the builds in the first place. Apple does the same thing. They are after the groups and individuals that distribute pre-mature software. Hopefully, then the illegal distribution could be alleviated a bit.

The big leaks of new products and such will definitely be sent C&D letters since Apple stock, and their hype factor depend largely on the public's initial reaction. They don't want to spoil the cake. Since Apple can keep certain things a total secret without ANYONE really knowing what was coming next, I know Apple could do the same with Panther.

However, Apple balances the secrecy level and piracy level of their software according to their needs. Final Cut Pro and such applications, although piratable, are not up for the public consumption that panther is under. Their pro apps have piracy protection mechanisms and serial numbers.

Even for the public beta, and the developer previews, people already saw the demonstrations that Steve did, they already heard every source with the legitimate authority to speak of Apple's products, and so the cat's already out of the bag. There is nothing to try to cover up. Trying to keep the new builds from not leaking are important, but not as important as keeing secret the info about the iTunes music store, original iMac and new iMac, along with the G5 and ipod releases. Apple is not going to send C&D letters to everyone, as every individual full well knows that they are screwing themselves over if anything might go wrong.

But by making pre-release software availble it gives Apple the marketing edge as reviewers and many small groups and sites can comment and discuss Apple products so that Apple's products can be introduced to as many consumers as possible. Apple will take piracy into account and know that some people will screw themselves over with a mistake and that's their problem, but it also builds a relationships with the developers as the developers can work with Apple to both help themselves and the consumer with new features and bug fixes. Controlly piracy of pre-release sotware that everyone already knows about is an afterthought, unless it gets out of hand.

Apple, as a big company, does not have the help resources nor the time to try to support a nightly build system catering their pre-release products to the public. Even though Apple may not officially support certain pre-release products, in the case of some type of major problem, the eyes of the public still see Apple as responsible for the damage that could be caused by a malfunctioning build. Hence preview intermittent builds of Safari were limited to a select number of individuals and groups, while the general public was allowed to consume the initial build and the second public build. When the intermittent builds got out of hand, Apple tighted up and locked down.

Also when pre release builds leak like crazy, Apple's public image is at stake, as builds with not fully functioning features are seens as Apple's fault and tend to degrade the quality image of their software, when it isn't even finished. Again, Apple will tighten up and loosen up as they see necessary.

Panther's size alone keeps mass distribution under control. Also Joe blow is usually intimidated to install aa prerelease operating system as opposed to a prerelease web browser. So those two factors keep Panther distribution to a fairly small number of people.

So is priating the lastest panther builds justifiable, moral, or ethical? No.

If you do pirate it, are you at risk of being caught and prosecuted?
Most likely not, but there is a miniscule chance.

Should you not pirate it at all then?
Apple will throttle piracy to the best of their ability, whether you're one of the lucky or unlucky ones that gets your way, so be it. But don't take advantage of it and be stupid as to make a million opcies and send them off the anyone and everyone, and then serve it to the whole world on a public website on some oc3 connection. (this is what makes things get out of hand) ( I guaranttee you will get a C&D letter from apple if you were to do that)

Those that evangelize obsessively should know that vengeance is in the hands of God. In our case, Apple. (BTW, I am not equating Apple to God, merely implying that Apple will take the measures necessary if anything gets out of hand.)

Ultimately, you should support Apple, and supporting Apple is following Apple's wishes.

Most people are going to rationalize downloading a pre-release build because they can't wait the extra couple months to see some new feature. Society has become so impulsive that patience is no longer seen as a virtue, fast service is.

Evengelizers can prech all they want about software piracy, but a made up mind is a made up mind. You're not going to change them by preaching more about how they are unethical and immoral, and would end up becoming some mass murder.

Be like apple, just say a simple, "Don't pirate software."

It'll be effective to those who are on the borderline of decideing whether they should or should not go against the wishes of a certan company.

Thank you to hose who have read my entire post^^

Donald

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by brachiator:
Ahhh, I haven't seen this much amateur political philosofizin' since the good old days of the first "Ambrosia's New Expiring License Scheme" thread!

I think that at base its a person's duty to follow the law at almost all times. This is neither "blind" nor mindless -- on the contrary, it is mindful and in service of a much greater good than a free or early copy of Panther. The whole society is kept together on respect for the rule of law and the agreement to abide by the laws, especially the laws that protect people and their private property.

Perhaps I've misstated my position. I don't necessarily advocate the piracy of Panther, nor do I intend to justify the ACT of piracy. I got a bit enthusiastic... your amateur philosofizin' statement isn't far from the mark. Oddly enough I'm a fully time systems admin during the day, and a part time philosophy major at night (already have most of a CS degree and enough years in tech support I kind of got _real_ lucky with regards to my job)... ironically I just got through with business ethics this summer semester, which is why I think I spent so much time on this... I'm still in "rationalize the hell out of your arguments for paper's sake" mode.

My argument was more intended to point out that IF I make the conscious choice to engage in the act of piracy while fully accepting any legal and moral consequences of said decision and THEN go discuss it... it's between me, Apple, and Apple's lawyers and MacNN; the moral police of the Panther threads need to just shut up about it, since it will be discussed regardless. It's not their place to narrow the focus of discussion for WHATEVER reason, that's the Mod's job... if they don't like the thread they don't have to read it.

[EDIT] BTW, very well-spoken argument... I have no problem accepting that much of what you've stated is correct. You actually made sense of it instead of the typical "piracy is bad, discussion=piracy, you're bad" drivel.

[brachiator]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
... and THEN go discuss it... it's between me, Apple, and Apple's lawyers and MacNN; the moral police of the Panther threads need to just shut up about it...

Oh, yes, I agree. Discussion is a whole other story... free speech and all that... just as critical to a democratic society. It's too bad that MacNN is or believes itself constrained. So long as there's not incitement or conspiracy, the rule should be "chat away!"

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
BTW, very well-spoken argument...

Thanks, but it was all said better and clearer by whoever I cribbed it from (Rawls or Bentham or one of those cats in the Monty Python song... )

[stew]

Panther seeding is available from Apple for cash. For anyone, just become a ADC premier or select member. It is a product that Apple is selling.

How is obtaining those over BT or other sources not piracy?

Those who obtained their beta seeds from Apple have signed a NDA to not discuss it. Ergo, the ones who discuss the betas are either breaking their NDA or - discussing pirated software, which is not allowed by the MacNN forum rules.

[Jonnie13]

Character is what you have when no one is looking.

Who are you? A cheater? A thief? A commoner?

What will be your legacy? To yourself, to your children, to society?

Whom do you want and aspire to be?

[entrox]

Originally posted by stew:
Panther seeding is available from Apple for cash. For anyone, just become a ADC premier or select member. It is a product that Apple is selling.

How is obtaining those over BT or other sources not piracy?

Those who obtained their beta seeds from Apple have signed a NDA to not discuss it. Ergo, the ones who discuss the betas are either breaking their NDA or - discussing pirated software, which is not allowed by the MacNN forum rules.

How true, how true. People justify that by saying since they're going to buy Panther anyway, they're somehow entitled to the developer seeds. After all, they're doing no harm and only helping Apple by spreading word of mouth and submitting something ("Boo! Brushed finder sucks!", "It crashes on my MDD 2x1GHz", ...)

[bgmccollum]

which brings up a funny observation...

why is it people post their machine specs in threads, but these specs bear nothing on the content of the thread...

"I just got this cool new program on my MDD Dual 1.25Ghz 1.2GB 200GB G4. Just though you guys might like the program."

or...

"The other day i was working on my MDD Dual 1.25Ghz 1.2GB 200GB G4 and I looked out the window and it was a pretty sun set."

come one people. we could care less...

[Gul Banana]

Originally posted by bgmccollum:
we could care less...

Actually, I couldn't. I suspect you couldn't, either, or you wouldn't have made that post.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
Actually, I couldn't. I suspect you couldn't, either, or you wouldn't have made that post.

lol

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by entrox:
my personal impression is, that nearly everybody on this board has pirated Panther.

No, I don't think so. If that were the case, why are so many anxious to view info about Panther here in these forums?

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by stew:
Panther seeding is available from Apple for cash. For anyone, just become a ADC premier or select member. It is a product that Apple is selling.

How is obtaining those over BT or other sources not piracy?

Those who obtained their beta seeds from Apple have signed a NDA to not discuss it. Ergo, the ones who discuss the betas are either breaking their NDA or - discussing pirated software, which is not allowed by the MacNN forum rules.

People on these forums have a really hard time understanding this position...

I do NOT advocate piracy. Nor do I think that obtaining Panther from BT or whatever other source is anything BUT piracy.

My position (as I've become increasingly tired of explaining) is that IF I (or anyone) choose to pirate a copy of Panther because we will purchase it on release (and thus have justification in our own minds for our disobedience of the rules, whether morally just or not)THEN we have every right to discuss it on these forums as much as we wish unless the interested parties (Apple, MacNN, Law Enforcement in a severe case) say otherwise.

Notice that in interested parties I did NOT include egotistic self-righteous board trolls who feel it their personal duty to project their moral fibre unto the rest of us. While some people (brachiator stands out) have made concise, intelligent, and thought provoking arguments either for or against such action (which I'm more than willing, and in fact eager to discuss as I LOVE logic), most are degenerated into:

Don't pirate Panther/break the NDA's you scum, because I said so and it's wrong.

Not only does that make one look uneducated, but it completely throws credibility for the argument out the window. You have someone using their (imaginary) moral high-ground status as the basis for ad hominem (abusive) argument with no logical basis other than "piracy is illegal". THAT is the part that bothers me... not anyone's personal objections to piracy (developers have every right to hate piracy, it directly effects their personal income).

[wadesworld]

If someone's downloading of a pirated copy of Panther personally effects you (i.e., you're on the development team and the success of the product effects your personal income or future lack thereof on failure) then by all means speak up and tell them what for.

You don't have to be on the Panther development team to be upset about people pirating it.

Almost every software developer is upset about any form of piracy. Not being stealing Panther is going to affect their income, but because of the continued spread of the casual attitude towards piracy and the growth of the "If I want it, it's OK to steal" generation.

That group of users, after pirating Panther, will turn around and pirate the software of other developers. And then it *will* affect their income.

Wade

[wadesworld]

While some people (brachiator stands out) have made concise, intelligent, and thought provoking arguments either for or against such action (which I'm more than willing, and in fact eager to discuss as I LOVE logic), most are degenerated into:

Don't pirate Panther/break the NDA's you scum, because I said so and it's wrong.

How can anyone make an argument other than "don't do it, it's wrong?"

It's as black and white as it can be. If you obtain the software illegally, you've stolen something.

Your desire for "thought provoking" arguments is a desire to find ways to rationalize what you're doing, and hoping that someone will agree with you.

You can discuss your "moral" decision to steal if you like, but don't whine when people tell you it's wrong, because it is.

Wade

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by wadesworld:
How can anyone make an argument other than "don't do it, it's wrong?"

It's as black and white as it can be. If you obtain the software illegally, you've stolen something.

Your desire for "thought provoking" arguments is a desire to find ways to rationalize what you're doing, and hoping that someone will agree with you.

You can discuss your "moral" decision to steal if you like, but don't whine when people tell you it's wrong, because it is.

Wade

Ok, this is getting SILLY. Do you people actually READ the posts, or just skim what you like and formulate a reply?

I'm not trying to rationalize piracy. I DIDN'T (and won't) pirate Panther. I don't condone piracy nor have I ever argued that it's legal. You assume that by seeking arguments a bit more logical than "you're wrong" I'm looking for justification, quite the opposite... I'm simply seeking intelligent arguments as I've heard very few on the subject.

And the act of piracy (and whether or not downloading Panter consitutes said piracy) IS black and white. However, for certain individuals there is justification, and those people have the right (whether you like it or not) to discuss it.

I simply stated that IF I (or anyone else) finds it justified to download Panther (for whatever reason, whether you agree with it or not, whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter) THEN we have the RIGHT to discuss it unimpeded by the (now clich�d) moral police.

I was more pointing out that there ARE ways in which people feel justified in downloading Panther illegally... whether it's right or wrong it's still a personal decision based on individual free will. If they wish to discuss it, that's their business. You have no right (as you aren't the individual, Apple, MacNN, or a law enforcement officer) to derail someone else's LEGITIMATE discussion of Panther.

You'd probably argue that discussion is illegitimate based on the illegality of the distribution (or violation of NDA's in a legal case). However you're missing the point... legitimacy (on these discussion boards anyways) is inferred by lack of opposition. The second a MacNN mod closes a Panther thread because Apple told them too (or they decided it violated policy) I'll agree wholeheartedly and even start telling people myself not to discuss it.

[Person Man]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:

2) I can't think of ONE good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to run Panther on my machine if I'm going to be the first in line to buy it at the Apple store the day it's released. Doesn't hurt Apple... they still get my $129... doesn't hurt anyone here, because if I DID have it I wouldn't ask for support on an unsupported OS, that's MY responsibility, and MY problem. So what, exactly, is your "good reason" for me not having it?

It most certainly DOES hurt Apple!!

As pointed out by someone else, above:

Also when pre release builds leak like crazy, Apple's public image is at stake, as builds with not fully functioning features are seens as Apple's fault and tend to degrade the quality image of their software, when it isn't even finished.

So don't try to justify it by saying it won't hurt Apple.

Remember Minimize-in-place? It was there in the pre-release builds of Jaguar, but then it got removed. APPLE NEVER INTENDED YOU TO KNOW ABOUT IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. What did people do when the final came out?? They screamed bloody murder that Apple removed minimize-in-place.

Tell me that that didn't hurt Apple's image.

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by Person Man:

Tell me that that didn't hurt Apple's image.

It didn't hurt their image, at least not with the general user base.

Average joe user didn't know it existed, as you rightly pointed out. The only people who DID were either:

1) developers

2) software pirates

3) people who went on about it who were either 1 or 2

Anyone who would care enough to read the rumor threads would (or at least should) do so with the knowledge the rumors are based on incomplete, beta level code. With that understanding should come the acknowledgement that x,y,z great feature MAY NOT make it into the release build for some reason or another, and that if Apple makes said decision they do so with good (or at least palpable) reason.

It doesn't hurt Apple's image in the long run because the percentage of users who sift through all the BS in the rumor threads to pick out bits and pieces of real information is, I would imagine, STAGGERINGLY minute compared to the total Apple customer base.

Here's a good example of a non NDA instance of this... my TiSD is only rated to burn DVD's at 1x and CD's at 8x despite the fact that the drive is physically the same as the 17" (2x and 16x capable respectively). The only thing holding my Ti back (until today... check out the PowerBook forum for more info) was the firmware, which was crippled by Apple. Now that it's possible for me to upgrade the drive to a newer firmware (which enables 2xDVDR, -RW and 16x CDR) I'm not the slightest bit ANGRY with Apple, nor is my opinion of them lowered. Those features were disabled for a reason by Apple, probably heat but who knows.

My point is, Apple isn't suddenly going to lose a huge amount of public support because x,y,z feature isn't implemented at the last minute or for some other reason... that's just silly. Anyone with ANY knowledge of the development process would understand and reluctantly submit to the greater good... the rest were average folks who didn't even know about it in the first place.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
...we have the RIGHT to discuss it unimpeded by the moral police...

this attitude is more dangerous than the piracy itself.

You know how it's ok to jaywalk, and run stop signs, and speed, until you get caught? You're supposed to worry about getting caught, not shout it from the rooftops.

You remember back in '98 or so when it was just hard enough to get mp3s that the industry didn't worry about it, but not so hard that you couldn't still find everything you wanted? Then you remember how Napster made it too easy and too public and brought it out of the shadows? And then everyone and his monkey's little brother started downloading like mad and now everyone thinks of stealing as the standard way to get music? It's supposed to stay in the shadows. Can't you just let us stay in the shadows? would it be so terrible...to just pretend that it's still discreet? Please don't try so hard to turn this guilty pleasure into a public spectacle

[juanpacolopez]

Originally posted by Uncle Skeleton:
this attitude is more dangerous than the piracy itself.

You know how it's ok to jaywalk, and run stop signs, and speed, until you get caught? You're supposed to worry about getting caught, not shout it from the rooftops.

You remember back in '98 or so when it was just hard enough to get mp3s that the industry didn't worry about it, but not so hard that you couldn't still find everything you wanted? Then you remember how Napster made it too easy and too public and brought it out of the shadows? And then everyone and his monkey's little brother started downloading like mad and now everyone thinks of stealing as the standard way to get music? It's supposed to stay in the shadows. Can't you just let us stay in the shadows? would it be so terrible...to just pretend that it's still discreet? Please don't try so hard to turn this guilty pleasure into a public spectacle

And THAT my friend... is the first argument I've heard strong enough to shut me up

[Person Man]

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
And THAT my friend... is the first argument I've heard strong enough to shut me up

Which is pretty much the same thing that was implied by JLL when he posted:

"We are aware that there have been breaches of confidentiality with the previous seed. Be advised that these leaks may result in Apple limiting the scope of future seeding or the suspension of future seeding altogether."

And no, they usually don't say that in every seed note.

Just because Apple resumed public seeding of Safari later doesn't mean that they won't be more protective of Panther later. After all, we are talking about a $129 product rather than a free item.

[brachiator]

Originally posted by Jonnie13:
Character is what you have when no one is looking.

Well said, indeed.

Originally posted by Jonnie13:
Who are you? A cheater? A thief? A commoner?

"A commoner"??? What kind of elitism is that? It's always been the damn near exclusive province of the "gentleman," the rich, the top dogs, to screw the next guy and get away clean. (As our current rulers demonstrate with forthright elan!)

Oh, and please, now that I've been preachy, don't let that be a well-known song or something that you were quoting.

BTW, in response to the question as to whether everyone in the thread had a copy of Panther, I do not. Even if I didn't believe in the social contract, I took an oath. Plus, I'm a wee bit a'feared of Arent Fox.

[SMacTech]

I cannot say that I have never used any pirated software. What gets me is the logic some people have for their justification of using it. I too wanted to download a BT copy of Panther. But I suddenly recalled, damn, I don't have to as I paid to become a select member of ADC.
Now you can go back to rationalizing your pirating to the rest of the world.