[asxless]

What LCD Monitor would you recommend to be _shared_ by a PowerMac G4 (mirror door) and a DirecTV HD DVR satellite receiver?

Has anyone actually used a wide aspect ratio LCD (e.g. 23" ACD, Dell 2405FPW, etc.) as an HDTV monitor?
Did you enjoy it?
How did it handle the various HDTV resolutions...
480i - 640x480 interlaced?
720p - 1280x720 progressive scan?
1080i - 1920x1080 interlaced?

Background Info...
We are downsizing / simplifying our stuff to fit into our _small_ cabin in the country, where we will be living for a year (or so) while we build the main house. Space is at a premium, but we don't want to give up functionality To that end we plan to combine as many functions into as few boxes/wires as possible. Here's the plan...

1 - Subscribe to DirecTV and get their DirecTV HD DVR satellite HDTV receiver/recorder.

2 - Replace the 21" Radius CRT monitor on the PowerMac G4 with a wide screen (23-24") LCD that will double as our HDTV monitor.

3 - Add powered speakers to the PowerMac (aka the DVD player) and HDTV audio from the DirecTV HD DVR.

FWIW we would be happy to pay the "Apple industrial design premium" for Apple's 23" Cinema Display but it only has one input (DVI) and does not appear to support HDTV resolutions (1280x720, 1920x1080, etc).

DELL's 2405FPW gets good reviews on this forum and has multiple inputs but DELL's nearly worthless web site only lists the maximum resolution (1920x1200). And I never found where you could get more detailed specs / manuals. Which leaves me wondering if I want to do business with a company who _requires_ me to buy via mail order and provides such flimsy tech specs online

TIA - asxless in iLand

[mduell]

What outputs does your DVR have? If it has HDMI, wait for the (rumored, upcoming) Dell LCDs with HDMI ports. If it doesn't have HDMI, the 2405FPW is great.
480i is, well, what it is, but the two HD resolutions look good. The built-in scaler works well (Anandtech commented on the quality in their review of the 20").

The 23" ACD doesn't make any sense for you... it only has DVI input (which your DVR probably doesnt, but may, have), it only has one input (no PiP/PbP and constant cable swapping), and it doesn't support scaling.

Dell site says "Clear, sharp images at a maximum resolution of up to 1920x1200 pixels" which implies that lower resolutions are supported (but doesn't say anything about scaling). Apple lists the other resolutions that the display supports, but doesn't mention that they'll be surrounded by big black bars.

[asxless]

Originally Posted by mduell

What outputs does your DVR have? If it has HDMI, wait for the (rumored, upcoming) Dell LCDs with HDMI ports. If it doesn't have HDMI, the 2405FPW is great.

Thanks for the info.

The specs on the DirecTV HD DVR lists HDMI, Component (Y Pr Pb), S-Video, and Composite (RCA) So the rumored new DELL LCDs would be a good fit for cables assuming they would have both DVI and HDMI ports.

480i is, well, what it is, but the two HD resolutions look good. The built-in scaler works well (Anandtech commented on the quality in their review of the 20").

The 23" ACD doesn't make any sense for you... it only has DVI input (which your DVR probably doesnt, but may, have), it only has one input (no PiP/PbP and constant cable swapping), and it doesn't support scaling.

Dell site says "Clear, sharp images at a maximum resolution of up to 1920x1200 pixels" which implies that lower resolutions are supported (but doesn't say anything about scaling). Apple lists the other resolutions that the display supports, but doesn't mention that they'll be surrounded by big black bars.

You mention the "built in scaler". Does this mean the 2405FPW _always_ scales lower resolution signals to fit the full screen? Or is this optional? (See Edit below)

FWIW I really prefer to see lower resolution displays at their natural size in pixels, even if that means the image is small and surrounded by black stripes. I find it hard to watch "regular TV images" when they are stretched to fit a wide screen format. Its like viewing TV through a bizarre high tech fun mirror at the circus. I'd much rather see the 16:9 HDTV formats letter boxed on a 16:10 display than stretched vertically to fit.

Thanks again -- asxless

Edit: I found the article you mentioned and realize the scaling is optional

[mduell]

Originally Posted by asxless

You mention the "built in scaler". Does this mean the 2405FPW _always_ scales lower resolution signals to fit the full screen? Or is this optional?

FWIW I really prefer to see lower resolution displays at their natural size in pixels, even if that means the image is small and surrounded by black stripes. I find it hard to watch "regular TV images" when they are stretched to fit a wide screen format. Its like viewing TV through a bizarre high tech fun mirror at the circus. I'd much rather see the 16:9 HDTV formats letter boxed on a 16:10 display than stretched vertically to fit.

No, you can choose scaled or native.
By scaling I'm not talking about distorting a 4:3 image into a 16:10 one (which is awful, and far too many people do it), I'm talking about scaling a 1280x800 source up to the actual resolution of the LCD, 1920x1200.

[jebjeb]

Watch out for HDCP (High Def Content Protection) support. I would imagine that your HD set top box would need a HDCP capable display otherwise it would force it down to 480i/p levels due to the lack of encryption. That's how it works here anyway. Even though a display may be have a digital input (i.e a DVI port), if that DVI port does not also support HDCP then you would probably be scuppered. I don't recall seeing any displays with HDMI not having HDCP.

The upcoming Dell displays (also including the current Dell 30") are supposed to include HDCP.

Of course, your other option is to do with a "normal" LCD TV with dual digital inputs. As long as one of those digital inputs can support a computer resolution of 1280x720 (more likely 1366x768) then you are golden. That is, of course, if you are happy with that limit of res. Many LCD tv's can't go that high on DVI but can on VGA. You can find 1080 displays but very few will show a computer res that high as well as most of them are large (37" plus).

I have a feeling you are best to wait for a HDCP supported Dell display as you will have a decent res for your Mac (1920x1200) but full support for your HD box. Of course, it is highly likely that the display will only have one digital input (DVI) so you will need a DVI switcher which will cost you another couple of hundred bucks.

I am currently on the lookout for a 720p LCD with 2x DVI or HDMI inputs which can support 1366x768 (through DVI) on the computer side. If anyone knows of one (ideally, available in the UK) let me know. If I find one, I will be sure to post it here.

[asxless]

Originally Posted by jebjeb

Watch out for HDCP (High Def Content Protection) support. I would imagine that your HD set top box would need a HDCP capable display otherwise it would force it down to 480i/p levels due to the lack of encryption. That's how it works here anyway. Even though a display may be have a digital input (i.e a DVI port), if that DVI port does not also support HDCP then you would probably be scuppered. I don't recall seeing any displays with HDMI not having HDCP.......

Thanks for the heads up. Following the trail of HDCP was a real eye opener.

1 - Tucked away in the press release area of the Directv site was the confirmation that the DirecTV HD DVR _does_ use HDCP

"In addition, the DIRECTV HD DVR will be one of the first products available with the latest in digital interfaces, High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) connector with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP). The outputs may be configured for 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i formats."

So any monitor that does not support HDCP will display HD content form this box in some dumbed down manner

2 - And after quite a bit of Googling, it would appear that NONE of the currently available wide screen format 23-24 in LCDs (i.e. 1920x1200) support HDCP. And I only a found ONE wide screen format 20-21 in LCD that supports HDCP -- the HP f2105. But the HP f2105 uses a less desirable LCD panel that came in dead last on the gray scale comparison of several 20-21 in LCDs including Apple's Cinema Display. The 30" DELL 3007 supports HDCP but is simply too big for the intended use (read small cabin).

I guess I'll just have to hope my wife's aging Radius 21 " PressView monitor hangs in there until the LCD industry gets it act together w.r.t. HDCP support or we move to the cabin and buy a really cheap LCD to tide us over the gap.

If some one knows of a 23-24in wide format LCD with good color rendition that supports HDCP please post.

-- asxless in iLand (and HDCP-less in iLand too)

Edit: I found another wide format 21 " LCD that supports HDCP - the Gateway FPD2185

[mduell]

Yuck, don't buy a Gateway display. It advertises HD, but its doesn't support 1080.

Dell should have their 2407FPW with HDMI out Real Soon Now (tm).

[asxless]

Originally Posted by mduell

Yuck, don't buy a Gateway display. It advertises HD, but its doesn't support 1080.

Dell should have their 2407FPW with HDMI out Real Soon Now (tm).

Not to worry. I only added the Gateway for completeness.

BTW for those reading this thread and wondering "How hard can it be to read the spec sheets on an LCD monitor or HD Receiver and look for the four letters HDCP?" Well...

HDCP "support" seems to be a dirty little secret among the HD video equipment manufactures. These four little letters rarely appear on spec sheets even when monitor supports HDCP. Most of the information I found was in reviews of the products by 3rd parties who may or may not even test for HDCP support.

AFAIK that is because they don't want to bring attention to the fact that...
HDCP support on an HD Video Source -> Low Resolution output to any Display that does not support HDCP even when connected via the DVI port. And OBTW the VGA, Component Video, and S video ports only output Low Resolution video anyway.

-- asxless

[jebjeb]

So by the sounds of it, you do want a display with around 1920x1200(or 1080) native resolution. Just want to clarify, does this mean you would not be happy with a display that would show a native 1366x768 computer image but also support 720p and 1080i HD TV?

If you would be happy with that, nearly any HDTV with a HDMI and a VGA input would suit you fine (except of course that your Mac would be hooked up by analog VGA rather than DVI).

[asxless]

Originally Posted by jebjeb

So by the sounds of it, you do want a display with around 1920x1200(or 1080) native resolution. Just want to clarify, does this mean you would not be happy with a display that would show a native 1366x768 computer image but also support 720p and 1080i HD TV?

If you would be happy with that, nearly any HDTV with a HDMI and a VGA input would suit you fine (except of course that your Mac would be hooked up by analog VGA rather than DVI).

We are really only seriously interested in a 23-24 in 1900x 1200 native resolution LCD monitor. The primary use will be as a Mac monitor with only occasional use as an HDTV monitor (see background below).

One of the great ironies in todays market is how 1366x768 is being touted as "High Definition". The HD in HDTV must refer to the video _content_ not the display

Background...
My wife is a graphic print designer who regularly works with 2 page spreads. She _needs_ as much desktop real estate as she can get without busting the budget and/or getting neck strain (e.g. an 30" ADC). BTW using a 30" LCD with bifocals is not fun. She does not want to "down grade" her desktop real estate vertically. She usually uses 1280x1024 but her Radius 21' PressView CRT allows her to 'pop' to nearly any resolution (yes even 1900x1200) for specific tasks..

Thanks again for your suggestions -- asxless

[asxless]

Anyone in the market of a new monitor should really be thinking about it's support for HDCP. This is NOT just a HDTV thing. This will soon be a very big issue for Windows users, since Vista will require HDCP compliant monitors to display _any_ HD video content. But Mac users are not likely to me immune from this issue either.

The best article I found on the subject was at...

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paed...hdcp-vista.ars

The short version is...

Monitors without HDCP support are very, very likely to be DEAD MEAT for viewing HD video content in Vista and OS X 10.5

-- asxless in iLand

[mduell]

Originally Posted by asxless

Anyone in the market of a new monitor should really be thinking about it's support for HDCP. This is NOT just a HDTV thing. This will soon be a very big issue for Windows users, since Vista will require HDCP compliant monitors to display _any_ HD video content. But Mac users are not likely to me immune from this issue either.
<snip>
Monitors without HDCP support are very, very likely to be DEAD MEAT for viewing HD video content in Vista and OS X 10.5

Slight correction: Vista will require HDCP to display some DRMd HD content. OS X may follow suit.

[Cadaver]

You might be better off going with an LCD HDTV and using it as a computer monitor, rather than the other way around.
Some of the larger Sharp models have native resolutions of 1920x1080 pixels.

[asxless]

Originally Posted by Cadaver

You might be better off going with an LCD HDTV and using it as a computer monitor, rather than the other way around.
Some of the larger Sharp models have native resolutions of 1920x1080 pixels.

There are several reasons that we do not want to use an HDTV as a monitor....

1- The only HDTVs I've seen that support true 1080p (i.e.1920x1080) are too large to use as a desktop monitor. Not just because of their overall size. Even 1080p looks grainy when you are sitting close to only 1920x1080 pixels spread out over a lot of square inches (cm) of LCD panel.

2 - The primary function we are looking for is as a Mac monitor not an HDTV/Video display. I only watch a few hours of TV / month. I could easily live without a TV of any kind. But my wife watches a bit more TV than I do and has a few favorite programs that she would miss.

3 - We have no use for the tuner(s) in an HDTV. Our cabin is down by the creek, in a narrow valley, that precludes over the air TV reception without a massive antenna.

FWIW this whole quest began when I took my wife into a Best Buy to look for an HDTV to use as her Mac Monitor. She quickly told me to forget it. She was not going to use such a low resolution display on her Mac -- period! She literally said it reminded her of when we used a TV as the monitor on our first Apple][.

-- asxless

[MichiganRich]

I think one of those Dell 24" UltraSharps would be perfect for you. They really are beautiful displays, stat eof the art for the money.

[hotani]

I just ordered a Westinghouse LVM-37W1 LCD and will be using it for a TV and computer monitor. It supports 1080p via computer input and has a native resolution of 1920x1080.

That was the *only* LCD I found that supported 1920x1080 in that price range - most were 1280x720.

[hotani]

double posts are cool.

("quick reply/edit"= bad!)

[asxless]

Originally Posted by hotani

I just ordered a Westinghouse LVM-37W1 LCD and will be using it for a TV and computer monitor. It supports 1080p via computer input and has a native resolution of 1920x1080.

That was the *only* LCD I found that supported 1920x1080 in that price range - most were 1280x720.

The thing that has kept me from considering any of the current HDTVs that support 1080P, such as the Westinghouse 37", is their large "Dot Pitch" . BTW Dot Pitch is regularly included in computer monitor specs and rarely mentioned in HDTV specs.

Comparing the Dell 24" to the Westinghouse 37" the dot pitch increases from .270mm to approx. .4275mm. Or said another way, seen at the same distance the pixels on the 37" Westinghouse would be roughly 60% further apart. So to get the same visual distance between pixels (i.e. the apparent resolution) the Westinghouse 37" would need to be placed roughly 60% further away from the viewer.

Is your primary use as an HDTV or a computer monitor?
How do you expect to place the Westinghouse 37" when it is being used as a monitor?
On a desk with a wired keyboard and mouse?
On a wall with a wireless mouse/keyboard?

TIA - asxless

[hotani]

It will be on the wall in front of the desk, so further away than my current LCD by about 1' which will help a bit. I know what you are saying about the dot pitch and am not expecting the same clarity up close as my 1280x1024 17" LCD, but I think it will still be a functional monitor.

Eventually I'd like to get a wireless mouse and keyboard so I could have some more mobility, but for now I'm still wired to the desk.

(still haven't received the monitor btw - it's on its way)

[asxless]

Originally Posted by hotani

It will be on the wall in front of the desk, so further away than my current LCD by about 1' which will help a bit. I know what you are saying about the dot pitch and am not expecting the same clarity up close as my 1280x1024 17" LCD, but I think it will still be a functional monitor...

Thanks for the info. I hope it all works out as you plan. Please post your results when you get your new display.

For those following this thread, the....

Dell 2405 1920x1200 Monitor (without HDCP) is selling for US$799.20 via mail order and

Westinghouse 37" 1920x1080 HDTV Monitor w/ 2 DVI (HDCP) inputs is selling for US$1,529 at a local Best Buy today (IIRC). Note: this is substantially below the online price at BestBuy.com

-- asxless

P.S. I'm still hoping for a super-fast, color-accurate 1900x1200 23"-24" LCD monitor with 2 DVI (HDCP) ports to be announced Real-Soon-Now(tm).

[hotani]

That's a lot better than I did. Of course, last time I looked at BB it was 1900. I got mine from crutchfield for 1700 shipped.

It should be here tomorrow - I just set up the speakers tonight and will post some finished pics as soon as I can.

[hotani]

Just hooked it up. Absolutely beautiful! It looks great and has good resolution as a monitor, and of course is awesome as a TV. Mission accomplished.

[asxless]

Originally Posted by hotani

Just hooked it up. Absolutely beautiful! It looks great and has good resolution as a monitor, and of course is awesome as a TV. Mission accomplished.

Congratulations! Your setup looks great.

If my wife's office / desk were that neat, she might have room for a 37" monitor too

-- asxless

[maxhedrum]

Originally Posted by asxless

2 - And after quite a bit of Googling, it would appear that NONE of the currently available wide screen format 23-24 in LCDs (i.e. 1920x1200) support HDCP. And I only a found ONE wide screen format 20-21 in LCD that supports HDCP -- the HP f2105. But the HP f2105 uses a less desirable LCD panel that came in dead last on the gray scale comparison of several 20-21 in LCDs including Apple's Cinema Display. The 30" DELL 3007 supports HDCP but is simply too big for the intended use (read small cabin).

Greetings -

I've been using an HP F2105 for about a month now and am quite pleased with it's performance. I settled on this monitor after months of research as I was looking for a serious Photoshop screen and needed to get the best image quality for my budget.

While at first blush the PVA panel seems to work against it, the various reviews I read convinced me to bite the bullet though I had been leaning towards the Dell 2005FPW. A couple reviews even rated it slightly above the Eizo and the Apple Cinema.

Glad I did. The overall illumination is very even and it handles grayscale and subtle color gradations beautifully. Contrast is superb, with true blacks and accurate whites. It's off-axis charactoristics are good as well. For critical work it stays even accross the screen when viewing head on. While it does have some shift moving around, it is minimal even towards the limit of 178 degrees side to side. Up and down shift is more pronounced, as is the case with all LCDs.

Video is stunning. I'm not a gamer, but it scored well on the reviews as well. Could have done without the exrta real estate of the speakers, but they come with the teritory.

Comp USA sells them, so check it out for yourself if you can.

Cheers

[asxless]

Originally Posted by maxhedrum

...I've been using an HP F2105 for about a month now and am quite pleased with it's performance. I settled on this monitor after months of research as I was looking for a serious Photoshop screen and needed to get the best image quality for my budget.....

Thanks for the excellent personal review for the HP F2105! I really appreciate your comments about color accuracy, etc.

We plan to get a HP F2105 if no equivalent quality 23-24" LCD Monitor with HDCP support is released before we move to the cabin in a few months. Frankly the only thing that keeps us from buying an HP F2105 right now is the lack of 1900x1080/1200 pixels to support 1080p HDTV natively. BTW the built in speakers are a plus for us because we've managed to live without any add-on computer speakers on any of our Apples/Macs over the last couple of decades

Thanks again - asxless

[maxhedrum]

Yer welcome.

I too learned a bit from this thread, so thanks as well.

Cheers

[asxless]

Well the movers came earlier this week and carted off the big/heavy stuff to storage. We'll be moving my wife's PowerMac G4 to the cabin at the end of next week and buying her an LCD monitor at that time. Dell still hasn't released the fabled 2407 WFP in the USA And I haven't seen any other 23-24" LCD monitors with both VGA and DVI (HDCP) support.

So we're planning on buying an HP F2105 unless someone has a better suggestion.

Thanks in advance -- asxless in iLand

[funkboy]

How have Westinghouse LCDs worked out for everyone? I am planning on buying one, either the 27" w7 or the 32" w6 versions at Best Buy. Has anyone experienced completely smooth sailing with their Westinghouse LCD, or are you experiencing problems with yours?

[asxless]

Sometimes procrastination works in your favor Dell has finally released the fabled 2407FWP in the US! I have one on order and will post back to this thread when I get it hooked up, etc.

I'm a little concerned about the reports of color banding (supposedly fixed with the latest firmware) and blurry type. But AFAIK it is the only 24" wide screen form factor LCD with 1080i and HDCP support.

So when we head up to the cabin we will be toting a clunky old Sony 17" multi-scan so my wife will have a monitor until the 2407 is delivered.

-- asxless in iLand

[mduell]

Does the 2407FPW support HDCP? I don't see it mentioned on the website.

[asxless]

Originally Posted by mduell

Does the 2407FPW support HDCP? I don't see it mentioned on the website.

I'm taking a small risk on DHCP based on the info on Dell's Austrlian & Japanese sites and reports in other online fora including Dell's own Community Forum.

FWIW If you look at the details in the online manual (in the Support section) both the 2007FWP and 2407FWP include a mention of HDCP in the Trouble Shooting section which _implies_ that they do support HDCP. Yet both do not explicitly mention HDCP support on their spec pages.

This is my first Dell product purchase. I am seriously nervous about it, because of the poor quality/consistency of the information on Dell's website. For example, last night the info on the 2407FWP pages were a blend of 2007, 2405 and 2407 specs depending on when you hit the page (yes even after clearing web caches etc. & using two different browsers on two different Macs). Even now the contrast is listed as two different values in different places on the 2407 spec page. I still haven't found a pdf version of the full manual. The 2407 Specs page doesn't mention VGA but the online manual shows VGA as the default method of connection to a PC complete with illustrations - DUH.

I'm beginning to realize how spoiled I've become purchasing Apple products

-- asxless in iLand

Edit: Dell says my 2407 has already "shipped". So I guess we'll see soon.

[ballison]

Im looking into either the dell 30 or the 24 that you purchased and since you've obviously had alot of time with the display im wondering what your opinion is now of it? im especially interested in how HD content looks

[asxless]

Originally Posted by ballison 

Im looking into either the dell 30 or the 24 that you purchased and since you've obviously had alot of time with the display im wondering what your opinion is now of it? im especially interested in how HD content looks

You're probably not going to like this answer.

We've been using the Dell WFP 2407 as both a Mac Monitor and HD TV Monitor daily since June 06. If you are considering this setup - DON'T!

The 2407 should work well. And a good quality monitor would. But the Dell WFP 2407 is so flawed, that is not a good quality Mac monitor or 1080i HDTV.

As a Mac Monitor the 2407 has problems with both color banding and jagged type. The color banding on gradients we could live with. But the ragged type makes using the 2407 a serious PITA. This flaw is rather subtle. At first glance the type looks crisp. But on closer inspection the type is too crisp, displaying jagged edges and a shadow that makes it look like you forgot to turn on type smoothing.

As a 1080i HDTV monitor hooked up to a Dish 622ViP satellite receiver, the 2407 is again seriously flawed. The 2407 does support 622's 1080i HDTV output BUT only when connected via component cables. And the HDCP only works at resolutions BELOW 1080 ( i.e. 720p) - DUH. Luckily Dish has not turned on "Content Protection" yet, so this is not a big deal - YET. It just makes the 2407 a poor choice for 1080i HDCP content - EVER.

One last quibble. The 2407 is very, very bright. This is good for day time use and HDTV use, but will burn your retinas when sitting close to it in a dark room. The brightness controls on the 2407 are tucked away in an on-screen menu system that is controlled via only three buttons. So switching between Mac monitor and HDTV in the evening requires about a half dozen button pushes in exactly the right order using small black buttons on a black bezel immediately adjacent to a very bright screen. Try that after a glass or two of wine with dinner before the big show

Side Note: Most HD content broadcast by Dish (and any other gazillion channel TV provider) is dumbed down to what many people call HD-Lite (i.e. some where between 720p and 1080i) in order to save bandwidth and cram even more channels on overcrowded satellites, etc.. IMO this is why so many people say they can not tell much difference between 720p and 1080i -- most HD content is not really 1080i. But some Dish HD channels do broadcast some content in full 1080x resolution. On these, the 2407 does look quite good.

-- asxless in iLand

[ballison]

hmm I was under the impression that HD content cant go through component only hdmi or DVI. sounds like I'll be going with the 30 inch, getting eyetv and forgetting about HD altogether its been a (to use your term) pita to find something thats everything I want...oh well! such is life

[asxless]

Originally Posted by ballison 

hmm I was under the impression that HD content cant go through component only hdmi or DVI. sounds like I'll be going with the 30 inch, getting eyetv and forgetting about HD altogether its been a (to use your term) pita to find something thats everything I want...oh well! such is life

Component transmits analog video signals over three separate coaxial cables with RCA style plugs. The Dish 622 converts the digital HD video to analog signals for use with component cables.

FWIW I would be very careful of ANY Dell product specs as represented on their Web site. They are extremely sloppy. And I would double check that the Dell 30 does exactly what you expect (e.g. HDCP using the cables and resolutions you want, etc.).

-- Asxless in iLand

[ballison]

yeah it seems like I wont be able to use it as anything other than a computer monitor since it requires a duallink DVI port (which the new macbook pros have ) windows vista require HDCP when playing HD content or else it wont play so Im sure thats why the HDCP is there