[neoTony]

C'mon pundit, there's devil's advocate and then there's advocacy. What is the point of this thread? What is your point?

Of course people in a mac forum aren't going to agree with any pro-MS talk - what did you expect?

Oh, and BTW: Just because UPS chose windows doesn't make it a better product...my workplace chose novell groupwise as our collaboration software *shudder*...you want bad quality of service, go take a look at anything novell...guh...Novell makes MS's software problems seem insignificant.

[pundit]

Originally posted by neoTony:
<STRONG>
</STRONG>

No big point. People talk a lot of crap about MS software thats unwarranted. A little mental sparring never hurt anyone, even though I'm well aware I'm not going to change anyones mind. I don't expect too much, although I do enjoy the discussion.

I'm interested in OSX (which I essentially see as a unix with a home theme, and of a commercial quality to it) for one of my next workstations OS choice, for home, so I thought I'd occassionally peek in a related forum to see what was going on, and find out when they sort out the issues that OS-X has at the moment.

pundit

[theolein]

Originally posted by pundit:
<STRONG>

... I personally wouldn't use Passport. If I had to to buy stuff... I probably would though. I don't think they're going to sell my credit card number to the mafia or something.

pundit

[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: pundit ]</STRONG>

You're still at it after two days??? You seem to have a great need to be here. You might be dumb enough to use passport but, we know who you work for so I suppose you'ld have to say that, wouldn't you? I also don't think that MS is going to sell your credit card to the mafia, but the 15 year old russian kid who crack your wallet with one line of cross-browser script might sell it to a porn company instead. A authintification initiative that can be cracked with one (1) line of JScript does not deserve that name.

And please, everyone knows about that one, it's not flamebait. It goes to show how much they care for about your data.

[theolein]

Originally posted by pundit:
<STRONG>

Its OK, but the ports of Oracle and DB2 aren't as fast as on Intel at least on 8-way machines. And you still have the licensing cost of Oracle if you choose Oracle. MySQL is a joke in terms of enterprise data needs... why even mention it?

pundit</STRONG>

What are you talking about??? Is that a typo? - the ports areen't as fast as on Intel - you meant - the ports aren't as fast on Intel as MS&lt;whatever&gt; is on Intel, I assume.

If MySQL is such a joke, why do so many companies use it? And large enterprises AFAIK, mostly run Unix in their datacenters, where, strangely enough, there is no port of MS&lt;whatever&gt;

[goatnet]

What kind of SUV can you buy for $16000-4600-taxes? A Kia?? AHAHHA!

Actually, 16 G's will net you quite a bit, when it comes to cars. But, we're talkin' SUV's I guess. I have no idea why people even buy those things. The closest the "average" human comes to off-roading with those beasts is running over a ****in' skunk on their way to a parent/teacher conference.

*shrug*

SUV's are nice, but gimme 6k for an RR... SUV = comfort, but they can't wheelie.

[EddieDesignsDotCom]

ote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by EddieDesignsDotCom:
Wait!! where's the cgi-bin folder!!??
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Typical... you know they *can* install nearly *all* of your *nix stuff on a Windows server so you can program in Perl, etc.. and have your cgi-bin folder.

Sometimes we have to learn new things... If you learn ASP and the Windows way of writing web pages then I guarantee you, your family won't go hungry.

And by the way.. what is a designer doing dabbling with code? I can't wait to go to your site and find holes in your security (or lack thereof).

go for it. basically I am the only guy in the whole company that a) has Macs (2 G4's) and b) knows *anything about how to run them. the rest of the offices run PCs and every day I hear bullshit coming from my immediate boss, the company marketting director, like: "Help! My monitor says, 'It's Safe To Turn Off Your Computer Now', what do I do??". So he calls up tech support. He rants and raves, "I can't turn on my computer", he's switching the monitor on/off button". He calls tech support. He has a fully maximized window, he can't move it, he panics, he calls tech support.

our company pays tech support/engineers $1000 a month for unlimited service. they come and go as they please, last we they showed up and told everyone (not me, I'm the Mac user remember) to switch off their PCs for 1 hour whilst they installed an update for Opera whatever that is (not the browser Opera).

are you hearing me hear? in PC World when I just ask the so called, yet knowingly clueless assistant do they have anything Mac related, he patronizes me and says why are you using a Mac, Mac's suck, get a PC... blah blah...

IT's SO GOOD, NOT BEING ONE OF THE BLACK AND WHITE NORMAN NORMS WHO IS LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, PC USER!! Yeah I am exclusive alright!

---------------------------------------------------------

Oh what is a designer doing messing with code? Err, hello??! I am a web designer, I want to install a mailing list. Should I call tech support to do this for me and install one I don't even like or should I pay a visit to hotscripts.com?? Easy answer. Oooh what is a Mac theme creator doing typing in Unix commands... same parallel.

I am not pissed, it's sad, but I am OVER joyed, now I realize I am not so brainwashed: must say, "Macs Suck, M$ rule!, Macs Suck, M$ rule!"

getting a bit long in the tooth don't ya think...


reminds me of a stuck record in the back of my head, what was it?? oh yes that's it:

"developer, devloper, developer, developer...developer, devloper, developer, developer...developer, devloper, developer, developer... I LOVE THIS COMPANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH!!!!!"

ok. back to work...

[theolein]

Originally posted by Raman:
<STRONG>

Typical... you know they *can* install nearly *all* of your *nix stuff on a Windows server so you can program in Perl, etc.. and have your cgi-bin folder.

Sometimes we have to learn new things... If you learn ASP and the Windows way of writing web pages then I guarantee you, your family won't go hungry.

And by the way.. what is a designer doing dabbling with code? I can't wait to go to your site and find holes in your security (or lack thereof).

-Raman</STRONG>

You are trolling.
Windows had Posix compatability, PHP, MySQL, Apache and perl with cygwin etc all run happily on windows. The question is why? perl's strength lies in regular expressions, it's nearness to unix, and CPAN. A lot of perls modules and functions don't work on Win32, because they weren't designed for that. It's the same thing with perl in .Net. Why write in perl in .Net? the major strengths of Perl will not work there. Almost no one, according to netcraft runs apache and php on win32 on production platforms. The security of the products are not as well tested on win32 and there is a warning about that if you read the instructions in the source or on the website. Your claim actually is not so true anymore, with respect to perl and cygwin, as Microsoft dropped Posix compatibility with Windows XP. this means that most of the unix tools requiring Posix compatability that were ported to windows, will not work after Win2000.

Why did Microsoft have Posix compatability in the first place? To win over Unix operators who were being screwed by sun, hp, ibm and dec and to win government contracts. They were successful with respect to dec who has since ceased to exist, especially after your favourite company screwed them by dropping NT support for Alpha processors.

Knowing ASP will not automatically get you a job, as with knowing any programming language. Experience will get you a job. And while there is nothing wrong with ASP in itself, the server on which it runs is a joke and an absolute embarrassment for the company which created it, since you're talking big shot security. The number of virii that exploit holes on IIS are enormous. The fact that a large amount of them are based on MS' coders inability to check for buffer overflows when writing software speaks legends. Still today, after nimda et al, being around for almost six months, if I turn on apache on my Mac for half an hour I get dozens of nimda signatures in my logs because those people have no idea that they have a virus or that they should patch IIS or even how to patch IIS for that matter. One particular server was filling my logs with junk so I found out who the guy was and mailed him a couple of times and after a week with no reply I wrote a five line php script that shot his server down when it got the nimda request. After that, no problem. It was that easy.

Talking about security, have you patched your Explorer? All Eddie has to do is to look online for the xml NDATA exploit (fooling Explorer with the data to the JScript entry point) and set up that page as his default in Apache. With that XML file he has the capability of manipulating data on your computer and then he'll be the one to laugh.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Raman:
<STRONG>


Good post. but you for got 1 man. Adolf Hitler. If it weren't for him there would be no volkswagen beetles. IF you don't believe me to go any barnes and noble and pick up a glossy book about the beetle read up about the man who wanted an affordable car that everyone could own.</STRONG>

So you think that excuses what he did and following the logic of your two posts you think that Bill G and co are evil? I personally don't think that Bill G is evil. I do, however, think that he and mmost of his top management would go to any extreme, including falsifying evidence in court, to promote their company. The question I would ask is where do you draw the line? Hitler made an affordable car that anyone could drive, *as long as* they were not jews, slavs, gypsies, crippled etc.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Raman:
<STRONG>

Actually it's not sad. If you work in a 1 server shop then you don't understand. Work for a global company with over 50,000 employees accessing your systems and internet/extranet sites that get millions of hits per day and you'll learn to appreciate the ability to take down a server to do maintenance and not have a single soul in the world even know what you did. You'll learn to appreciate that if a webserver goes down for any reason, sessions are not lost because they're being held in a special session cluster (of SQL databases perhaps). There could be a fire, a power outage, fiber interruption, etc.. Main thing is that the systems need to stay up and users need not know that 1/2 of the servers crashed and burned.

Many things need to be redundant in life. If you know any engineers, ask them how much of the stupporting structures, glue, etc is redundant in case the primary structures go. Same thing with computers. Welcome to the real world.</STRONG>

You are truly the hight of arrogance. Please tell me that there are not thousands if not hundreds of thousands of small companies that run a single server for all their web, workgroup, mail and fileserving needs? That is also the real world although, sitting as you are in your "large oil company's data center" you don't seem to have noticed it.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Raman:
<STRONG>

What kind of SUB can you buy for $16000-4600-taxes? A Kia?? AHAHHA!</STRONG>

So you are retarted? Or do you have this burning need to show everyone here how you have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about and need to punctuate each sentence with 15 year old 1337 boasting? Did you think that perhaps you could have asked pundit what the consultant was earning on other work and if the cost of whole project was $16000 or merely the server cabinet?

[juanvaldes]

[quote]Originally posted by pundit:
<STRONG>
[QB]

quote:
Originally posted by TNproud2b:

OMG

you missed the sarcasm in my previous post.

scroll up and read it again...only this time keep in mind that I'm the local PeeCee troll.

I was pretending to be a mac-zealot

*reckon i did a good job*
</STRONG>

<STRONG>

&lt;smiles&gt; oops... you got me.</STRONG>

...and the Macnn troll's meet for the very first time....



[edit]:stupid BB

[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: juanvaldes ]

[theolein]

Originally posted by pundit:
<STRONG>

No big point. People talk a lot of crap about MS software thats unwarranted. A little mental sparring never hurt anyone, even though I'm well aware I'm not going to change anyones mind. I don't expect too much, although I do enjoy the discussion.

I'm interested in OSX (which I essentially see as a unix with a home theme, and of a commercial quality to it) for one of my next workstations OS choice, for home, so I thought I'd occassionally peek in a related forum to see what was going on, and find out when they sort out the issues that OS-X has at the moment.

pundit</STRONG>

I think that NeoTony had a good point. There's the devil's advocate and there's advocacy. Apart from that I don't think MS software is the problem. It works. I think the company's business practices are the problem. I think the company cares far less about it's products than it does about it's markets. And that is where I see the problem. Given that MS is a money making neterprise it *should* care about markets, but since it is in the business of producing software it is only reasonable for customers to question the quality of said products if they fail to satisfy. You follow me? A lot of people are happy with their windows, and their office. Fine, why not? What a lot of people are a lot less happy with is the way that MS seems to invest enormous resources into marketing bullying and blackmailing, which would be better spent for example in paying for some extra coders to review the critical code for buffer overflows. MS' strategy of embrace and extend is also disasterous for the industry in that it makes it difficult even for Microsoft's partners to produce software that can compete with Microsoft. Microsoft's criticism of http is a case in point. It makes cringley's pulpit theory about Microsoft deliberatley prducing security exploits in order to supplant http with a Microsoft proprietry protocol seem plausable. You can imagine what havoc that would sow. It only needs to be remembered that Microsoft was initially of the opinion that the internet was just a fad and that their own network would prevail. Given that Microsoft has a general strategy of keeping on with a product, no matter how poor, until it finally gains market traction, I wouldn't put this past them. Fortunately it seems that Microsoft's tactics finally reached saturation point when Microsoft tried to move to a subscription based payment model inorder to keep income flowing and their customers balked.

[TNproud2b]

and theolein arrives half a day late to the discussion, trying to shield the ears of the faithful. Carrying nothing but his wit, mac-zealot rhetoric, and a hatred for microsoft - he is sorely outgunned.

"Hark! There are trolls about", he screams, Do not listen to them."

*The faithful look towards him...lifting their eyes from their iBooks with their evil spinning disk of death*

"They will speak of Cinebench scores that are twice as high as our flagship, the DP 1000. They will go so far as to show you irrefutable proof. But do not be swayed, young grasshoppers, they know not what it feels like to use a Mac...the essence of Mac, if you will."


etc, etc.

dang. ran out of coffee.

[cowerd]

"Hark! There are trolls about", he screams, Do not listen to them."

*The faithful look towards him...lifting their eyes from their iBooks with their evil spinning disk of death*

"They will speak of Cinebench scores that are twice as high as our flagship, the DP 1000. They will go so far as to show you irrefutable proof. But do not be swayed, young grasshoppers, they know not what it feels like to use a Mac...the essence of Mac, if you will."

And the local PC troll has to stray of point to try to re-troll. Mod -4 for non-sequtir stupidity and bad bible speak..

[pundit]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>

What are you talking about??? Is that a typo? - the ports areen't as fast as on Intel - you meant - the ports aren't as fast on Intel as MS&lt;whatever&gt; is on Intel, I assume.

If MySQL is such a joke, why do so many companies use it? And large enterprises AFAIK, mostly run Unix in their datacenters, where, strangely enough, there is no port of MS&lt;whatever&gt;</STRONG>

MySQL is used cos its free. The project is too small to warrant a real database product.

Also ever heard of the expression, 'no such thing as a free lunch...'

Got any actual references to back up your statements???

Or do you want to keep on trotting the same old unsubstantiated spiel???

Again... look at TPC.org.

Tell me why what you say is correct, when Windows has almost universally better results.

Also, look at the IDC figures.

Can you actually back up what you say?

How many enterprise systems have you been involved in?

Whats your industry pedigre?

Ever built a SAN yourself?

Administered a Database?

pundit

[TNproud2b]

Originally posted by cowerd:
<STRONG>
And the local PC troll has to stray of point to try to re-troll. Mod -4 for non-sequtir stupidity and bad bible speak..</STRONG>

Sorry I mentioned OSX.

I know what a sore spot that is for some folks.

[theolein]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
and theolein arrives half a day late to the discussion, trying to shield the ears of the faithful. Carrying nothing but his wit,

At least I have wits, which is more than can be said for you, little man. You are still upset after all this time for being publicly criticized for your offensive sexual comments to cheerios in the lounge. You are *not* funny.

mac-zealot rhetoric, and a hatred for microsoft - he is sorely outgunned.

No, for the most part I use the facts at my disposal or extrapolate from them. This is something totally alien to you.

"Hark! There are trolls about", he screams, Do not listen to them."

IIRC, you referred to yourself earlier in this thread as as the local &lt;highly unpopular&gt; "PC troll"

*The faithful look towards him...lifting their eyes from their iBooks with their evil spinning disk of death*

"They will speak of Cinebench scores that are twice as high as our flagship, the DP 1000. They will go so far as to show you irrefutable proof. But do not be swayed, young grasshoppers, they know not what it feels like to use a Mac...the essence of Mac, if you will."

Again, IIRC, I wasn't refering to any benchmarks of any kind anywhere in this thread, troll. The thread was about Microsoft and it's marketing attacks and business practices. In fact I didn't refer to any Mac hardware at all. However I suppose that would be too hard for you to understand.

etc, etc.

In place of anything substantial to say...

dang. ran out of coffee.

No, you ran out of brain, but I think that probably happened a long time ago.

You asked for this, don't say you weren't warned. Go back to the lounge. The level of your posts is more appropriate there, although I think that's probably an insult to the lounge.

[TNproud2b]

lol.

I forgot about that cheerios thing.

[TNproud2b]

Now let's get back to you answering 'NO' for all of pundit's questions, shall we?

[theolein]

Originally posted by pundit:
<STRONG>

MySQL is used cos its free. The project is too small to warrant a real database product.

Also ever heard of the expression, 'no such thing as a free lunch...'

Got any actual references to back up your statements???

Or do you want to keep on trotting the same old unsubstantiated spiel???

Again... look at TPC.org.

Tell me why what you say is correct, when Windows has almost universally better results.

Also, look at the IDC figures.

Can you actually back up what you say?

How many enterprise systems have you been involved in?

Whats your industry pedigre?

Ever built a SAN yourself?

Administered a Database?

pundit</STRONG>

Why all the questions? Are you getting desperate? Is Bill not happy with your results? Didn't fill the conversion quota? Is this an attempt to belittle me? Why do you ask the same question about substantiating claims twice? I can read.

I know the benchmarks you're talking about. I won't refute them. IBM has similar claims. Your comment about "free lunch" is very MS marketing speak or why did you write it? As for backing up what I say, what should I back up? What do you want to know? Where I've worked? My CV? Do you want me to search for benchmarks on the web?

At the moment I'm a freelancer. I do web work and server admin on Sun Cobalts. I have worked in large companies, but it's been a long time. Many years ago I was head operator for the IBM 3083 in the IT center of South African Breweries. But as I said it was years ago. I was a sys admin for the Computing center of the USAirforce base in Tempelhof, Berlin and I've done just about everything inbetween. I've done windows 2.11 to 3.11 sales and support. I worked in prepress on Macs. I've done a bit of VB programming and in the last few years Multimedia on Macs, Web work, client and server side and some sys admin on Win2000, Linux and some some work on Sun tuning load balancing and helping with the Oracle admin.

No, I don't claim to know all that much. I read a lot and wish I knew more, and no, I've never built a SAN myself. Have you?

I don't know what you were on about when you mentioned "Industry pedigree", but the way you mentioned it sounded even more like MS marketing speak to me. It sounded like you were very upset because I mentioned mySQL. To you this sounded like an insult, or did I misunderstand you? What particular "spiel" are you talking about? That I talk about real, reported behaviour of your favourite company? That I talk about real, reported security exploits in your favourite company's flagship server and, more importantly, your favourite company's reaction and denial of those exploits? I don't and never have said that MS's software is bad. In fact I said the opposite. I don't know what you what me to substantiate, but I assume that it must have something to do with large enterprises running Unix. If you want commercial Unix, then simply go to Sun, IBM and HP's CR sites. Take a look there. If you want Linux or BSD take a look at netcraft, or simply take a look at the places where I've worked over the last five years: When I started out in the internet trip both of the comapnies where I was working were originally in 1997 and 1998, the two largest Internet agencies in switzerland, were all NT places. Both started experimenting with Linux in that time and by the end of 1999, the second had switched completely and the first only used NT for file serving. There is something called free software, but they're not talking about free as in lunch or beer. And you know it.

Or were you refering to my quote on MS' large customers balking and refusing to switch over to MS' subscription scheme? Did I touch some holy grail there?

To close, I don't think MS products are bad by themselves. I think the company and it's practices and over reliance on dirty tactics and marketing are the problem. I've said before that MS should concentrate on the quality of their software more and less on abuse of their customers. Word of mouth would then work for them and they would be less reliant on having to get their marketing people to troll on the internet and in burial records for them.

So what's your "Industry pedigree"? What do you do for a living? Would you like to name a company? Can I call them?

[EddieDesignsDotCom]

Why all the questions? Are you getting desperate? Is Bill not happy with your results? Didn't fill the conversion quota?

LOL nothing better than something to make you laugh immediately upon waking up. thanks theolin!

[Mr Scruff]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>and theolein arrives half a day late to the discussion, trying to shield the ears of the faithful. Carrying nothing but his wit, mac-zealot rhetoric, and a hatred for microsoft - he is sorely outgunned.

"Hark! There are trolls about", he screams, Do not listen to them."

*The faithful look towards him...lifting their eyes from their iBooks with their evil spinning disk of death*</STRONG>

As with all PC trolls your inference that performance is the only issue to be considered when discussing platforms is predictable. Two points: -

1) We know that Wintel is way ahead of Apple when it comes to performance.

2) We (at least some of us) don't actually care all that much.

[jlcrane]

Originally posted by boots:
<STRONG>It may work in the short run, but the fact that OS X doesn't require require you to know anything about unix is what will save OS X from any kind of Unix assault. The Unix underpinnings doesn't matter to anyone except those who use unix stuff already...and they know the truth. The whole Unix underpinnings thing will only expand the userbase to include people who wanted Linux but also wanted some of the more mainstream commercial software that Linux doesn't support. As long as they don't come out with a "Unix is less stable and secure" than Windows (which would be a blatent lie and easily exposed) it shouldn't have much of an impact.

And yes, I think they are a little wary of the public support for Linux...and now OS X. They won't be hurt too badly though. Microsoft has too big a market share to be hurt too badly...even if there is a 10% marketshare shift!</STRONG>

Food for thought. GM once had a 75% market share for automobiles and are now down to 10%. There will always be better products and I think Apple has produced something very aggressive. I am a Wintel convert for a little over a year now and love my G4 and OSX. I am thrilled that I finally retreated from the unstable world of Windows. OSX rules! Windows was a crappy OS from the start.

[pundit]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>
Why all the questions? Are you getting desperate? Is Bill not happy with your results? Didn't fill the conversion quota? Is this an attempt to belittle me? Why do you ask the same question about substantiating claims twice? I can read.

I know the benchmarks you're talking about. I won't refute them. IBM has similar claims. Your comment about "free lunch" is very MS marketing speak or why did you write it? As for backing up what I say, what should I back up? What do you want to know? Where I've worked? My CV? Do you want me to search for benchmarks on the web?

At the moment I'm a freelancer. I do web work and server admin on Sun Cobalts. I have worked in large companies, but it's been a long time. Many years ago I was head operator for the IBM 3083 in the IT center of South African Breweries. But as I said it was years ago. I was a sys admin for the Computing center of the USAirforce base in Tempelhof, Berlin and I've done just about everything inbetween. I've done windows 2.11 to 3.11 sales and support. I worked in prepress on Macs. I've done a bit of VB programming and in the last few years Multimedia on Macs, Web work, client and server side and some sys admin on Win2000, Linux and some some work on Sun tuning load balancing and helping with the Oracle admin.

No, I don't claim to know all that much. I read a lot and wish I knew more, and no, I've never built a SAN myself. Have you?

I don't know what you were on about when you mentioned "Industry pedigree", but the way you mentioned it sounded even more like MS marketing speak to me. It sounded like you were very upset because I mentioned mySQL. To you this sounded like an insult, or did I misunderstand you? What particular "spiel" are you talking about? That I talk about real, reported behaviour of your favourite company? That I talk about real, reported security exploits in your favourite company's flagship server and, more importantly, your favourite company's reaction and denial of those exploits? I don't and never have said that MS's software is bad. In fact I said the opposite. I don't know what you what me to substantiate, but I assume that it must have something to do with large enterprises running Unix. If you want commercial Unix, then simply go to Sun, IBM and HP's CR sites. Take a look there. If you want Linux or BSD take a look at netcraft, or simply take a look at the places where I've worked over the last five years: When I started out in the internet trip both of the comapnies where I was working were originally in 1997 and 1998, the two largest Internet agencies in switzerland, were all NT places. Both started experimenting with Linux in that time and by the end of 1999, the second had switched completely and the first only used NT for file serving. There is something called free software, but they're not talking about free as in lunch or beer. And you know it.

Or were you refering to my quote on MS' large customers balking and refusing to switch over to MS' subscription scheme? Did I touch some holy grail there?

To close, I don't think MS products are bad by themselves. I think the company and it's practices and over reliance on dirty tactics and marketing are the problem. I've said before that MS should concentrate on the quality of their software more and less on abuse of their customers. Word of mouth would then work for them and they would be less reliant on having to get their marketing people to troll on the internet and in burial records for them.

So what's your "Industry pedigree"? What do you do for a living? Would you like to name a company? Can I call them?</STRONG>

No... all the questions to find out if you are experienced, or just talking about stuff you've never seen, or had to deal with. Its obvious that you don't and haven't.

You are the biggest troll in this thread.

I have regularly dealt with systems of the scale that we are discussing.

I've been with a consulting company for transaction systems in NYC for 3 years. Last year I dealt with 8 such systems. Prior to that I was a Senior admin in Lower Manhattan, administering 400 servers, and 3000 clients.

Yes, I've built half a dozen SAN's including Compaq, EMC and a Veritas one, and consulted regarding two dozen more.

Go show me the proof of your claims.

You're the salesman, bs'ing his way through this thread.

Go sell someone who isn't experienced.

pundit

[Marook]

Hi All.

What an interesting thread to read! I feel the need to give my thoughts in this debate. I would like to state that I do this with 10+ years in mixed enviroments.

1: I find it funny that MS customers see fit with the products that come out of the MS factory. That said, MS tells the world that this is all they need.
A great example is MS Office, where the latest Mac version has 100 features more than the Windows version.(The MS person even said 'Mac First, Mac Only' at MWSF)

2: The most stable OS Microsoft has ever made, was DOS.

3: After beeing using Mac OS mostly for 1.5 year, I'm currently back to Windows at work, and gee, point number 1 stands very clear suddently.
Admin tools in NT4/win2k is, how should I put it, horrible.
Have a look at UserManager(usrmgr), it's like MS looked over the shoulder when Apple made 'Users & Groups' is Mac OS 7 and though 'Gee thats advanced, lets make it more simple' (simple = non-feature-packed).
I can't figure out how the corporate world can administrate the users, with a tool that don't even have an export feature, nor even a PRINT feature!
To get a NT domain userlist, I have to get into Exchange Server Admin and do it from there!
Talking about Exchange (5.5), it's completely impossible to debug, and if I would like to see the log's, I'd better get a 25" screen...

4: It's sad, but I feel with all the people using MS product. I'm not saing that it can't run, and can't get the job done, my experience just tell's me that it takes a big IT depertment, and a VERY tight relasionship with the servers/workstations. Setting up a Windows Terminal Server, takes a 6 month education, and then you better makes shure that all software you're going to use on the TS is made for it. Just try to install MS Office on a TS, is's a 10 page RegEdit effort! NOT EASY!
It just seem to be workarounds all the way...


I can't help it, but every time I use a PeeCee, I think of either Apples '1984' commersial, or playing Lemmings. Both descibe it pretty close...


Then again, I have to lift my hat for the effective way MS Marketing has been able to actually SELL this stuff... it's amacing!

[x user]

Apple actually has been in the server market before... WAY before. So they do have some experience with it. I think with a mature version of OS X Server and with a decent hardware offering, Apple could become a viable contender in the server market. Consider that they already support many of the technologies such as RAID...

Apple Network Server 700

[pundit]

Originally posted by Marook:
<STRONG>
</STRONG>

You're talking about old technology. You're describing an NT4 domain, and a 4 year old Exchange Server product. Which is like talking about OS8 server.

pundit

[goMac]

Originally posted by pundit:
<STRONG>

You're talking about old technology. You're describing an NT4 domain, and a 4 year old Exchange Server product. Which is like talking about OS8 server.

pundit</STRONG>

Actually, OS X Server was out about the time of OS 8.

[pundit]

Originally posted by x user:
<STRONG>Apple actually has been in the server market before... WAY before. So they do have some experience with it. I think with a mature version of OS X Server and with a decent hardware offering, Apple could become a viable contender in the server market. Consider that they already support many of the technologies such as RAID...

Apple Network Server 700</STRONG>

OSX server is a fine small workgroup product. As I've said before. Moving into server hardware production and marketing beyond 2% of the market is a jump, however.

For a start, Apple would likely have to go with IBM, rather than Motorola.

Secondly, they'll need to hemorrhage money to compete, if Dell or Compaq perceive them as a threat. Steve Jobs is smart enough to know where he can and can't compete.

pundit

[theolein]

Originally posted by pundit:


No... all the questions to find out if you are experienced, or just talking about stuff you've never seen, or had to deal with. Its obvious that you don't and haven't.

You are a little used car salesman of a personality. I want you to tell me What specific stuff I'm talking about that I have never seen. Exactly what things. Think you can do that? Think you can point out exactly what "claims" I am making that are untrue? No, I didn't think so.

You are the biggest troll in this thread.

I find your act difficult to trump

I have regularly dealt with systems of the scale that we are discussing.

You seem to have some kind of disease. *You* are always going on about large systems as if that is all there is and that there is in the world. I told you: I am talking about MS the company and it's disgusting practices, one of which is this anti-unix campaign which is not going to go down well for them as the court case is not yet over. I gave you specific cases in point where MS has abused companies and customers and competitors and where MS security policies leave much to be desired. You have, sill now, yet to give one single counter claim that those MS policies and campaigns are not FUD, hot air and pure lies. Case in point with MS ,represented here by you, claiming that unix "requires you to pay for expensive experts". IIRC both you and your troll-boy claimed that $90/h is too cheap for a consultant. This is a paradox is it not. Which is it now: Are MS experts cheap or not?

I've been with a consulting company for transaction systems in NYC for 3 years. Last year I dealt with 8 such systems. Prior to that I was a Senior admin in Lower Manhattan, administering 400 servers, and 3000 clients.

Yes, I've built half a dozen SAN's including Compaq, EMC and a Veritas one, and consulted regarding two dozen more.

Nice job. Sounds like you make a lot of money. In fact, it sounds as if shelling out $2900 for an Apple Titanium Powerbook would be a tiny drop in the ocean for you, which leads me to, again, seriously doubt that you are, as you claim, merely " interested in OSX (which I essentially see as a unix with a home theme, and of a commercial quality to it) for one of my next workstations OS choice, for home, so I thought I'd occassionally peek in a related forum to see what was going on, and find out when they sort out the issues that OS-X has at the moment." If you actually do make that amount of money, why don't you just buy a Mac and try out OSX. You can always sell it if it's not for you. Macs generally have very good resale value.

Go show me the proof of your claims.

I already did. I still want to know what *specific * claims you're talking about?

You're the salesman, bs'ing his way through this thread.

Go sell someone who isn't experienced.

Funny thing that. It really did read more as if you were the one trying to do some MS selling here:

"Doesn't mean too much... windows servers come with built in clustering and have been designed to be used in clusters. Serveral of which I know to have been operating perfectly since inception."

and

"No... but you have to remember that they hold 93% of the desktop market and only 42% of the server market. Combined linux and (all flavors of) unix hold 41%. Linix had 27% and all the others about 14%. So theres a *lot* of market share to take.

Their ad campaign is interesting... TV ads targeting the general public talking about a server interoperability strategy- .NET

Of course, they realize consumers will have to want to use products connected with .NET, but this is also shareholder education. A new tactic."

Preaching about clustering and unix/linux/windows *server* market share in an OSX forum is about as useful as talking about which type of weed is best to the mormon tabernacle choir: OSX is not designed for large scale servers and is meant more for single users, where it excells, work groups, where it's simplicity of operation make it very easy to implement and for simple web and mail serving, where it's BSD and, above all open, underpinnings make it easy to secure. OSX is at the moment fairly useless without a Mac and Apple will not change that soon given that they're primarily a hardware company. Microsoft's interrest in OSX can only be explained by the fact that OSX and the iMac/iBook combo are successful beyond their expectations.

pundit

Please change the tape recorded message the next time around. You can start with something creative in place of "back up your claims" for a start.

[Marook]

Originally posted by pundit:
<STRONG>

You're talking about old technology. You're describing an NT4 domain, and a 4 year old Exchange Server product. Which is like talking about OS8 server.

pundit</STRONG>

Ahh, that might be, but it's also the 'technology' in use! A lot of the corporate world is just now considering moving from Win NT4 to Win2K. Xp is a no-go at this point.
We had to install some Win2K servers at work, and IT'S A MESS!
The point here, is, that if you have a LARGE coporation that has 'gotten used to' the large amounts it takes to support a M$ installation, is easier to tell management to spend N billion on moving the complete installation to a new version of Windoze, that's just not the case in small companies and places where the tax payers has to pay.
If it's an issue to get new servers for $20.000, how do you thing management will look at you if you ask them to replace the complete 80 workstations in use??? No Go!

[walrusjb]

Just as a nice cap in this conversation, whilst the lot of you bicker about servers...

The disinformation site that MS and Unisys set up for this campaign is running on none other than FreeBSD. A simple port scan is confirmed by cNet no less... cNet Article

Listen closely, and you'll hear the sound of hot air rushing out of the room.

As one of the lone people around here who will likely admit to being an ASP coder (among other things), I have to say that, as usual, both the anti-MS and pro-MS folks are as equally uninformed on the issue. It's a tool, like any other. Same strengths and weaknesses as a *Nix /PHP/Oracle platform, with the exception of licensing + security.

Oh, wait - those are huge reasons.

I love signing new clients who are locked to MS-specific hardware/server/datastores. It roughly doubles our income on security matters alone, while making for an extremely easy development cycle. And within a year, we generally have them over in the *Nix camp on corporate backend, no questions asked.

*Nix is not going anywhere for serious backend. There's a reason those of us who pre-date the MCSE kiddies refer to *Nix as Big Iron (and if your IT dept. is infested with these MCSE kids, you've got bigger issues to deal with.) Hell, forget licensing and CALs on MS Servers... the change in rates on insuring an installation is enough of a savings when switching to *Nix for most companies (this applies more to corporate installations, but it has come up with smaller companies as well) to jump in with both feet... Insurance companies don't overlook that "Secure when not connected to a network" security rating on NT. (for those who don't know what this is in reference to, do a search on US Govt. review of NT... and look closely at how it achieved it's "secure" rating...)

Originally posted by Raman:

And by the way.. what is a designer doing dabbling with code? I can't wait to go to your site and find holes in your security (or lack thereof).

By all means, please do. I'm that designer that comes into your IT deptarment and has to educate your MCSE kids on what security is in the first place - because their current set-up isn't up to par with what I need in place behind the design.

Sometimes we have to learn new things... If you learn ASP and the Windows way of writing web pages then I guarantee you, your family won't go hungry.

Actually, when the big dot-com housecleaning started last year, I knew of a lot more ASP coders who were out of work - I personally layed off 3 of them. Why? Coders who stick to MS tend to be less adaptable. A *Nix-centic PERL coder with expereince in PHP, Oracle and DB2 **generally** knows their way around MS-specific code (or can adapt to it faster if they don't explicitly know it) much better than a MS-centric VB coder with some ASP, .Net and MSDE/SQL Server experience can do likewise. ASP coders in the SouthEast saw an est. 38% drop in billable rate. Hell, now I can hire one locally for what I used to pay HTML jockies - and they're easier to talk down on rate

So no, your family probably won't go hungry - but they won't be eating Organic if you know what I mean


-jb

[Todd Madson]

The site is: http://www.wehavethewayout.com/

Checking this at http://uptime.netcraft.com/ we find: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?...ethewayout.com

We find that NOW, today they are running it on Windows2000.

But the site INITIALLY (up until this morning) was running UNIX!
They were running FreeBSD. The record at Netcraft shows this:

Rapidsite/Apa-1.3.14 (Unix) FrontPage/4.0.4.3 mod_ssl/2.7.1 OpenSSL/0.9.5a

Idiots. They don't believe their own hype and covered their butt
to save face.

Microsoft....what a bunch of jokers. Monkey boy ballmer & Co have
gotta wake up.

[IonCable]

WOW, 3 pages of posts. This is the longest topic I have ever started. Lots of interesting stuff in here. I don't think MS's plan will work. The people in the know know that Unix is better and MS just keeps having "holes" found in it's system. I saw that another couple of patches just came out. I can't remember the last time I heard of a patch of an Unix flavor on security. I've been out of toen or I would have responed to some of the above posts.

One of the first posts asked why my IT poeple want to use DCHP, simple they just do. I took my division Director (1 step down from the Pres of the company) to order the IT department to give us static IPs for our unix boxes. The boxes really don't need them, but some of the our Digitial Assement software does to keep track of everything. The servers have a combined 500 GBs of RAID storage.

[EddieDesignsDotCom]

We find that NOW, today they are running it on Windows2000.

But the site INITIALLY (up until this morning) was running UNIX!
They were running FreeBSD.

why?? what made them switch?

[Target Practice]

Now, the site is completely down. I guess the changeover to Windows didn't go well.

An article on CNET says...

When it comes to Unix, Microsoft and Unisys are suddenly silent.

The two companies launched a Web site earlier this week seeking to persuade customers to switch from the Unix operating system to Microsoft software. But as of midday Tuesday, the "We have the way out" site displayed either an all-white screen or an "Error 403" authorization message

Read the entire article here.