[xenu]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
What's the dude's name, the guy we don't see. Damn. I got it. Wait, lost it. Oh yeah, God!

Whose god?

[CreepingDeth]

Jews, Christians, etc.
It is just morally wrong to kill something because you had some time in the back seat.
This is going to turn into the Right & Wrong thread.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Jews, Christians, etc.
It is just morally wrong to kill something because you had some time in the back seat.
This is going to turn into the Right & Wrong thread.

Does the Bible prohibit abortion? Did Jesus say anything about it? Does anything in the New Testament specifically say abortion is wrong? Does anything in the Old Testament specifically say abortion is wrong? Or is it just a bunch of conservatives Christians trying to use religion as the cover for their conservative beliefs about the issue?

[xenu]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Jews, Christians, etc.
It is just morally wrong to kill something because you had some time in the back seat.
This is going to turn into the Right & Wrong thread.

Then don't have an abortion.

See how it works? That way, you stay within the moral guidelines of your religion, and others stay within their equally valid guidelines.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
...the guy we don't see...

lol exactly

[voodoo]

Society is not above morals, it is built on them. Religion is not above morals, it is built on them. Religion is not above society however. Abortion is a moral question first, social second. It has zip to do with religion. Happily it doesn't even have to since no major religion mentions abortion either way.

[BRussell]

Just for kicks, here's George W. Bush's Methodist Church's statement on abortion:

Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection.

We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life.

It sounds moderately pro-choice to me. Even for abortion as birth control, they say they cannot affirm it, but they don't oppose or reject it, like they can for gender selection.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Does the Bible prohibit abortion? Did Jesus say anything about it? Does anything in the New Testament specifically say abortion is wrong? Does anything in the Old Testament specifically say abortion is wrong? Or is it just a bunch of conservatives Christians trying to use religion as the cover for their conservative beliefs about the issue?

I'm not a conservative Christian or a Jew so don't pull this one on me.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
I'm not a conservative Christian or a Jew so don't pull this one on me.

How about a muslim?

[CreepingDeth]

The only reason you communists use religion as a negative ("Evil Conservative Christinan" etc) is because you hate religion and all of its tenants. Stop fishing for an excuse to bash religion because you hate it so much. Answer the questions and arguments, not blame religion for everything.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
The only reason you communists use religion as a negative ("Evil Conservative Christinan" etc) is because you hate religion and all of its tenants. Stop fishing for an excuse to bash religion because you hate it so much. Answer the questions and arguments, not blame religion for everything.

Shows how little u know. I'm a devout christian.

[CreepingDeth]

Then why do you have to label someone a "Conservative Christian"? How can you be a devout Christian and support abortion?

[Dr.HermanG.]

Same way I suppose someone's a devout Christian and can support capital punishment.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Then why do you have to label someone a "Conservative Christian"? How can you be a devout Christian and support abortion?

Do you take offense at being a "Conservative Christian?" Why? And I asked to show me how the bible or Jesus prohibits abortion. Will you answer that please?

[CreepingDeth]

1. I am not a Christian, I just get pissed every time Conservative and Christian are used to describe anyone right of Marx.
2. Commandment 5.

[Mr. Bob]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
no, each individual does that for him or herself (on a philosophical level). i already pointed that out.

if you want to make it a legal issue, take it up with the courts.

Just remember, you think each man and woman should (on the �philosophical level�) decide when human life becomes precious.

So when the people who crashed a few planes into buildings believed that those people �weren�t really human enough to have the right to live�, by your argument, that�s okay.

I mean, if you believe that each person can decide (on their own �philosophical level�) when life is and is not precious, don�t be angry when someone believes that your live does not have value.

If you think that we should be able to define life�s value, then don�t complain when others define when life matters, and you don�t make the cut.

It�s easy, treat life as being precious when life starts. If you believe there is a period when life starts, and when life is precious, then that creates problems.

If you believe life only matters because someone has developed enough to live outside the womb, what makes another person wrong when he says a life only matters if they believe in the teachings of Islam, can speak English, is not black, etc.

Me, I believe once life is created, it should be preserved.

You, you believe that people should choose when life should be preserved.

So again, if someone thinks that your life is not precious because he believes in a different �set of requirements�, don�t complain when you don�t make the cut.

Again, abortion shows that American society (and all like it) thrive on hypocrisy.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Do you take offense at being a "Conservative Christian?" Why? And I asked to show me how the bible or Jesus prohibits abortion. Will you answer that please?

As if Christ was conceived naturally...

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:
Just remember, you think each man and woman should (on the �philosophical level�) decide when human life becomes precious.

So when the people who crashed a few planes into buildings believed that those people �weren�t really human enough to have the right to live�, by your argument, that�s okay.

I mean, if you believe that each person can decide (on their own �philosophical level�) when life is and is not precious, don�t be angry when someone believes that your live does not have value.

If you think that we should be able to define life�s value, then don�t complain when others define when life matters, and you don�t make the cut.

It�s easy, treat life as being precious when life starts. If you believe there is a period when life starts, and when life is precious, then that creates problems.

If you believe life only matters because someone has developed enough to live outside the womb, what makes another person wrong when he says a life only matters if they believe in the teachings of Islam, can speak English, is not black, etc.

Me, I believe once life is created, it should be preserved.

You, you believe that people should choose when life should be preserved.

So again, if someone thinks that your life is not precious because he believes in a different �set of requirements�, don�t complain when you don�t make the cut.

Again, abortion shows that American society (and all like it) thrive on hypocrisy.

Life is a gift, folks.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:
Just remember, you think each man and woman should (on the �philosophical level�) decide when human life becomes precious.

So when the people who crashed a few planes into buildings believed that those people �weren�t really human enough to have the right to live�, by your argument, that�s okay.

I mean, if you believe that each person can decide (on their own �philosophical level�) when life is and is not precious, don�t be angry when someone believes that your live does not have value.

If you think that we should be able to define life�s value, then don�t complain when others define when life matters, and you don�t make the cut.

It�s easy, treat life as being precious when life starts. If you believe there is a period when life starts, and when life is precious, then that creates problems.

If you believe life only matters because someone has developed enough to live outside the womb, what makes another person wrong when he says a life only matters if they believe in the teachings of Islam, can speak English, is not black, etc.

Me, I believe once life is created, it should be preserved.

You, you believe that people should choose when life should be preserved.

So again, if someone thinks that your life is not precious because he believes in a different �set of requirements�, don�t complain when you don�t make the cut.

Again, abortion shows that American society (and all like it) thrive on hypocrisy.

You seem to be meandering with your logic.

We are talking about abortions. You might want to try and stick to the topic.

Abortions, by the way, are legal. I don't remember a law being passed that allowed planes to be crashed into buildings.

I think you will find that the problems start when a group of people try to force their values and views onto others. You know the sort person I am talking about. They fly planes into buildings.

[Mr. Bob]

Originally posted by xenu:
You seem to be meandering with your logic.

We are talking about abortions. You might want to try and stick to the topic.

Abortions, by the way, are legal. I don't remember a law being passed that allowed planes to be crashed into buildings.

I think you will find that the problems start when a group of people try to force their values and views onto others. You know the sort person I am talking about. They fly planes into buildings.

Indeed, we are talking about abortions, which kills children.

So, when I think life should be preserved, getting an abortion goes against that. Also, just because there is not a law against abortion, does not make abortion right.

Life starts at conception, that is a scientific fact. When two independent pieces of genetic material combine to make a unique piece of genetic material, it is classified as an independent life form.

So, if you have two frogs, one spits eggs onto the water, and another frog fertilizes them. Two pieces of genetic information combine to make an independent life form. For humans (like most mammals) this is done inside of a woman�s womb.

The topic of abortion is not finding out if a human embryo or fetus is alive (we know he or she is), what the debate is all about is deciding if an embryo or fetus deserves the right to live.

So, yes, this is right on topic.

I have shown, that people should not (at least by our ideas of civil rights) remove the rights to live from another human being. Consent is always needed before anything harmful can be done to you, me, or someone else. But, if a person is still growing, they do not have those rights for some reason.

Our legal system states that a person is not given rights until they are born. That is the problem. Just like our legal system once allowed slavery, our legal system is still denying rights to a sect of people in our nation.

An embryo is not part of the mother, just inside of the mother. This is proven both by scientific empirical evidence and logical syllogism. But, they are not �developed enough� to be protected by our constitution.

So, you are saying that people should have �extra� requirements to be given constitutional rights besides existing. So, if you want to say a person only gets rights if they consists of x number of cells, or only if they have developed to a certain point, then (without being a hypocrite) you believe that other people are allowed to make their �extra� requirements. Because of this, if someone says there requirements consist of �not being American� then don�t complain because your requirements are �cannot be in the womb�.

So, actually, the only ones whose logic is meandering is you my friend.

I think you will find that the problems start when a group of people try to force their values and views onto others. You know the sort person I am talking about. They fly planes into buildings.

Indeed, and those same people kill their children so they can finish college, or continue to have unprotected sex.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:
Indeed, we are talking about abortions, which kills children.

So, when I think life should be preserved, getting an abortion goes against that. Also, just because there is not a law against abortion, does not make abortion right.

Life starts at conception, that is a scientific fact. When two independent pieces of genetic material combine to make a unique piece of genetic material, it is classified as an independent life form.

So, if you have two frogs, one spits eggs onto the water, and another frog fertilizes them. Two pieces of genetic information combine to make an independent life form. For humans (like most mammals) this is done inside of a woman�s womb.

The topic of abortion is not finding out if a human embryo or fetus is alive (we know he or she is), what the debate is all about is deciding if an embryo or fetus deserves the right to live.

So, yes, this is right on topic.

I have shown, that people should not (at least by our ideas of civil rights) remove the rights to live from another human being. Consent is always needed before anything harmful can be done to you, me, or someone else. But, if a person is still growing, they do not have those rights for some reason.

Our legal system states that a person is not given rights until they are born. That is the problem. Just like our legal system once allowed slavery, our legal system is still denying rights to a sect of people in our nation.

An embryo is not part of the mother, just inside of the mother. This is proven both by scientific empirical evidence and logical syllogism. But, they are not �developed enough� to be protected by our constitution.

So, you are saying that people should have �extra� requirements to be given constitutional rights besides existing. So, if you want to say a person only gets rights if they consists of x number of cells, or only if they have developed to a certain point, then (without being a hypocrite) you believe that other people are allowed to make their �extra� requirements. Because of this, if someone says there requirements consist of �not being American� then don�t complain because your requirements are �cannot be in the womb�.

So, actually, the only ones whose logic is meandering is you my friend.

I think you will find that the problems start when a group of people try to force their values and views onto others. You know the sort person I am talking about. They fly planes into buildings.

Indeed, and those same people kill their children so they can finish college, or continue to have unprotected sex.

Why start at conception? Surely every sperm is sacred, a potential for life. No sperm, no life. You have have done what you accuse pro-choice advocates of doing - created an 'artificial' starting point for life.

I would point out that your artificail starting point is only for the potential for life. A fertilised egg doesn't equate to a baby. Chances are it will naturally abort without any external help before the woman even knows she is pregnant.

Anyway, the well being of the person carrying the fetus should always come first. You would take that away, and turn pregnant women into slaves for your beliefs. Baby producing cows.

The rest of your post is just "slippery-slope" rhetoric.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by xenu:
Surely every sperm is sacred, a potential for life. No sperm, no life.

Sperm aren't sacred.

You have have done what you accuse pro-choice advocates of doing - created an 'artificial' starting point for life.

Uh, no. No scientist would tell you that that sperm or eggs are whole entities capable of developing into adults on their own.

I would point out that your artificail starting point is only for the potential for life.

And a seconds-born baby still has potential for life if it happens to live to adulthood.

A fertilised egg doesn't equate to a baby.

A fertilized egg contains the exact same pairs of chromosomes that baby and adult will. That's why it's a new individual.

Chances are it will naturally abort without any external help before the woman even knows she is pregnant.

ROTFL!

Anyway, the well being of the person carrying the fetus should always come first.

Maybe she shouldn't get pregnant in the first place.

You would take that away, and turn pregnant women into slaves for your beliefs. Baby producing cows.

Must you demean both babies and women too?

[Mr. Bob]

Originally posted by xenu:
Why start at conception? Surely every sperm is sacred, a potential for life. No sperm, no life. You have have done what you accuse pro-choice advocates of doing - created an 'artificial' starting point for life.

I would point out that your artificail starting point is only for the potential for life. A fertilised egg doesn't equate to a baby. Chances are it will naturally abort without any external help before the woman even knows she is pregnant.

Anyway, the well being of the person carrying the fetus should always come first. You would take that away, and turn pregnant women into slaves for your beliefs. Baby producing cows.

The rest of your post is just "slippery-slope" rhetoric.

Umm, ok, what you have said goes against simple logic and science.

First off, the baby producing cows thing, that is just ignorant. Cows don�t consent to making milk. Women do, consent to having sex, and sex makes children. If I consent to having sex (being a responsible adult) I also consent to being a father. I guess, I think I am just a �slave� to a �baby producing cow�. Your point makes no sense, and is garbage. What you have done is raise a straw man, and shows that you have little other ideas, or are just pound foolish.

Next, pro-choice is creating an artificial starting point for life, one that gives extra convenience. Life does start at conception, however, some say that life does not deserve constitutional rights.

Next, not every sperm is sacred. Not every egg is sacred. Sperm (23 chromosomes), an egg (also 23 chromosomes) is not an independent human life, and is made completely from a person�s genetic material (known as RNA, which is created from DNA). Any piece of tissue from your body (which is 46 chromosomes) is �your� human life, and you can choose to do to it what ever you wish. BUT, an embryo is 46 chromosomes that is not either all of the mothers, or all of the fathers genetic material. This is scientifically known as an independent life form. An independent life form that is also classified as human. The only difference between that embryo, and an grown adult, is that a grown adult consists of multiple cells, while an embryo is only one (and then two, and then four, etc.)

So yes, the pro-choice is creating an artificial starting point for life. They are saying that when life is created, it is not deserving of constitutional rights until a certain point.

Bottom line, if you say a single cell is not an independent human life, then you say you (which is made up of multiple cells) is not independent human life. An embryo is alive, because there can only be two categories for genetic material, alive, or dead.

If the embryo is undergoing cell division, then it must not be dead, which kind of narrows it down.

So stick to the point, life begins at conception. If you don�t understand this concept, then I urge you to read up on biological organisms. What we are discussing here is when a human life deserves the right to not be killed at the whim of another person.

I understand why you really want abortion to be okay. If abortion really was murder, then we would be allowing an awful amount of genocide within America (a �civilized country�). But sadly buddy, this is not it. America has shown its hypocrisy, and we are wrong to allow such a thing. If you say that women should not be forced to give birth to children they concented to, I guess you also believe that woman should not be forced to raise their children either, which is not true. Men should also play a part in the whole giving birth thing, and raising children thing. Indeed, women have the �raw deal� on the issue, but it doesn�t mean they have the right to kill their children to make it better.

Personally, I like the idea �that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness�. Men and woman are a persons creator, so when a person is created, it would be good if we own up to their �rights� too.

P.S. I would also advise you to read up on slippery slope, as you seem to not know its proper usage.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Ignorance snipped

You don't know anything about pregnancy do you?

Why do you think women wait several weeks before announcing they are having a baby?
For the suspense?

[xenu]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:
Umm, ok, what you have said goes against simple logic and science.

First off, the baby producing cows thing, that is just ignorant. Cows don�t consent to making milk. Women do, consent to having sex, and sex makes children. If I consent to having sex (being a responsible adult) I also consent to being a father. I guess, I think I am just a �slave� to a �baby producing cow�. Your point makes no sense, and is garbage. What you have done is raise a straw man, and shows that you have little other ideas, or are just pound foolish.

Next, pro-choice is creating an artificial starting point for life, one that gives extra convenience. Life does start at conception, however, some say that life does not deserve constitutional rights.

Next, not every sperm is sacred. Not every egg is sacred. Sperm (23 chromosomes), an egg (also 23 chromosomes) is not an independent human life, and is made completely from a person�s genetic material (known as RNA, which is created from DNA). Any piece of tissue from your body (which is 46 chromosomes) is �your� human life, and you can choose to do to it what ever you wish. BUT, an embryo is 46 chromosomes that is not either all of the mothers, or all of the fathers genetic material. This is scientifically known as an independent life form. An independent life form that is also classified as human. The only difference between that embryo, and an grown adult, is that a grown adult consists of multiple cells, while an embryo is only one (and then two, and then four, etc.)

So yes, the pro-choice is creating an artificial starting point for life. They are saying that when life is created, it is not deserving of constitutional rights until a certain point.

Bottom line, if you say a single cell is not an independent human life, then you say you (which is made up of multiple cells) is not independent human life. An embryo is alive, because there can only be two categories for genetic material, alive, or dead.

If the embryo is undergoing cell division, then it must not be dead, which kind of narrows it down.

So stick to the point, life begins at conception. If you don�t understand this concept, then I urge you to read up on biological organisms. What we are discussing here is when a human life deserves the right to not be killed at the whim of another person.

I understand why you really want abortion to be okay. If abortion really was murder, then we would be allowing an awful amount of genocide within America (a �civilized country�). But sadly buddy, this is not it. America has shown its hypocrisy, and we are wrong to allow such a thing. If you say that women should not be forced to give birth to children they concented to, I guess you also believe that woman should not be forced to raise their children either, which is not true. Men should also play a part in the whole giving birth thing, and raising children thing. Indeed, women have the �raw deal� on the issue, but it doesn�t mean they have the right to kill their children to make it better.

Personally, I like the idea �that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness�. Men and woman are a persons creator, so when a person is created, it would be good if we own up to their �rights� too.

P.S. I would also advise you to read up on slippery slope, as you seem to not know its proper usage.

You would turn women into baby making cows.
How would you police it? Would you make women have medical checks once a month to see if they are pregnant?

Life does not begin at conception. If you believe this, then you, like Dr.H, know nothing of pregnancy. The possibility of life begins, but then that possibility also exists in unfertilised eggs and sperm, just to a lesser degree.

Whose creator? Why don't you just say "my creator" and be done with it. After all, you are trying to force your religious morals onto everyone.

[ebuddy]

I'll let you in on a little secret Voodoo, devout Christians generally capitalize the "C" in the word "Christian." I figured if you're going to bs-you can bs more effectively.

Jesus took a child to him and sat with him. He said, "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10)

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalms 22:9-10)

For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalms 139:13-16)

Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (Isaiah 44:2)

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (Isaiah 44:24)

[ebuddy]

Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name. "But he said to me, `Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'" (Judges 13:6-7, see also Judges 16:17)

Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me. (Isaiah 49:1)

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)

But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased (Galatians 1:15)

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:


Life is a gift, folks.

And once given, we can do whatever we want with it.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
And once given, we can do whatever we want with it.

exactly.

We can have a reverance for life - or we can simply snuff it out.

PS, xenu, your arguments are lame.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)

This says that if you criminally cause a miscarriage, you get fined, but if you kill the woman, you get the death penalty. Doesn't that show that a fetus is to be valued much less than an adult woman?

I'd just like a straightforward line from the Bible, anywhere, that says abortion is wrong. This is a central issue for conservative Christians, if not the central issue, and the vast majority of pro-life people base their position on religious reasons. It should be quite straightforward.

[angaq0k]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
exactly.

We can have a reverance for life - or we can simply snuff it out.

Exactly.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
PS, xenu, your arguments are lame.

Feel free to point out why.
Or are you too busy finding polls to back up your claims?

You did know that miscarriages are quite common, didn't you?
That the numbers are a lower limit, as quite a few women will abort without ever knowing they were pregnant?

Are sperm and unfertilised eggs life? They carry DNA. Without them, no baby. So why the artificial starting point at conception? After all, conception does not equal a baby, just the possibility.

But then, this argument seems to be about forcing women to accept a particular set of religious beliefs and morals. The conception argument fits into those beliefs.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by xenu:
You would turn women into baby making cows.

Tell me, what gender of the species homo sapiens is responsible for having children and reproducing by giving birth to infants? You seem to ignore the basic biological fact that naturally women ARE supposed to be the ones to have babies. So how is anyone turning them into "baby making cows?"

How would you police it? Would you make women have medical checks once a month to see if they are pregnant?

Praticing medicine without a license is a felony.

Life does not begin at conception.

Yes it does. When else during the course of human evens is the chromosome pairing completed?

If you believe this, then you, like Dr.H, know nothing of pregnancy.

It is you who know nothing.

The possibility of life begins, but then that possibility also exists in unfertilised eggs and sperm, just to a lesser degree.

Sperm and eggs are incomplete and have no potential for growing into an adult.

[Dr.HermanG.]

Originally posted by angaq0k:
Exactly.

Did you support intervention in Yugoslavia?

[Mr. Bob]

Originally posted by xenu:
Feel free to point out why.
Or are you too busy finding polls to back up your claims?

You did know that miscarriages are quite common, didn't you?
That the numbers are a lower limit, as quite a few women will abort without ever knowing they were pregnant?

Are sperm and unfertilised eggs life? They carry DNA. Without them, no baby. So why the artificial starting point at conception? After all, conception does not equal a baby, just the possibility.

But then, this argument seems to be about forcing women to accept a particular set of religious beliefs and morals. The conception argument fits into those beliefs.

You arguments really are lame.

Again, the �baby producing cows� thing. Women choose to have sex, and therefore, choose the side effect of having sex, which is pregnancy. You (as I pointed out before) are raising a strawman.

Women who become pregnant, should be given the respect they deserve, a person who is going through 9 months of hardship, so that shy may bring a life into this world. Giving birth is a gargantuan responsibility, one that women choose to accept when they get pregnant BY having sex. I mean, what did you think, women got pregnant from falling down the stairs?

What does that make mothers? Slaves to little human larve? If you really believe in your �baby producing cows� idea, then my friend, you have no really idea how this sex and pregnancy thing works. You believe that women do not choose to have sex, that they are forced somehow, and that women who do choose to have children, are just spitting out kids without any meaning. You truly have no respect for life whatsoever.

For your argument to work, then women would have to be forced to have sex for the reason of producing children. They are not. Consenting to sex, means consenting to everything that comes from sex, which is pregnancy.

The truth of the matter is, you probably do understand, but you are a hypocrite, and you raise a strawman to try and get ignorant hardcore women�s feminists on your side. You point is foolish, invalid, and lame.

Next, some children do not make it. Yes. But there is a different between a child dying (from something like SIDS), and a child being killed (abortion, or infanticide). Saying that because some embryos die, so it is okay to kill them, logically means that because some people naturally die, it is okay for me to kill people. Again, your point is lame.

Next, I have no religious believes. But, I do know that murder is wrong, especially when it solely helps another person. Killing your children to save money, or to finish college is murder. Murder is bad. If you don�t think so, just say it, if not, then, again, your point is lame.

We as a society of people should be helping women who get pregnant, not ridiculing them. Women who get pregnant have a raw deal in our society, and it is because if people like you. Start treating women who are under enough stress as it is with respect, that they are playing the integral role that created us all, and not deprecating them as �baby producing cows�. Pregnant women should be helped well into their 9 months of pregnancy, and well after to ensure that the child I given all the things that we weren�t, to make his or her life better then ours. Guiding the woman to the abortion clinic goes against this simple principle.

I mean, hell, you are sure happy your mother didn�t abort you, right? I guess, you think as your mother as a �baby producing cow�, as she just spit you out of her uterus.

What I believe is that you think of women as animals with no control of their sexual desire, and who are unable to be responsible with their bodies. They constantly find themselves hunting for penis, and then accidentally become pregnant because of this. Because of this �problem� women should be able to get abortions, because it is of no fault of their own that they have sex because they lack the mental ability to abstain, they just live life without thought, like dogs or other mindless animals, and roam around while getting humped.

Well, no. Women are just as conscience as us. I choose to have sex, and so do they. Women can be just as responsible too, which means not killing children they consented to for their personal comfort.

When a woman gets pregnant, that child can only survive inside of her, she consented to that child, when he or she is now alive and dependent on her, its too late to renege on the deal. Women do have it hard, and they should be helped through their experience of pregnancy. Saying that they can just �remove some uteray tissue� is just slapping them in the goddamn face. Sadly many women follow this path of least resistance, which is much more like your �cattle� idea then trying to make the harder, but better decision.

Abortion (as I constantly say, but people succeed in using selective reading and hearing), degrades women as animals without the ability to be responsible, degrades life as simple unliving matter (parasites like tapeworms, and even one celled amebas, are currently higher up on the evolutionary scale then a fetus or embryo by the pro-choice stand point), and degrades our ability to care for our own children. It spits onto the idea that human life is precious, as we sell our principals, our children�s lives, and ourselves to continue to get our dicks wet, or ****s filled.

I guess you are fine with that, me, no, I am not.

[CreepingDeth]

Well, I would post something like that, but it'd be a redundancy. You're absolutely right.