[Mr. Bob]

This thread is about men who have become women. Started to think about this, and I honestly do not know what to believe. A part of me thinks it is weird and all, but the other part thinks that these people probably did not choose to want to become women, so they deserve to be treated like everyone else. I guess, its no different then being homosexual and all, but I guess it is different.

I think that these people should be treated with the same respect as everyone else, but then there is another part. If you were dating a women, but a women who was born a man, you want him/her to tell you about this before you got intimate? Generalizations are good, but also, what do you think in your personal position?

Also, how would you classify someone who gets a sex change. Sex is determined at the chromosome level, but calling someone he, when he has become a she, �

Ok, I am confused. Has anyone here been thinking about this longer then I have. I am truly confused about this, and need some opinions, some experiences, so forth. I am starting on a blank note pad here.

Me and the buddies started talking about this, and I had absolutely no idea what to think.

Thanks.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

How about who cares what they want to do with their own bodies and you treat them the same as you would anyone else. Why would you treat them any different?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
How about who cares what they want to do with their own bodies and you treat them the same as you would anyone else. Why would you treat them any different?

[d.fine]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:
If you were dating a women, but a women who was born a man, you want him/her to tell you about this before you got intimate?

Absolutely. I have no problems with anyone doing such a thing, but they must show their 'potential' partner the proper respect and tell them beforehand, and allow them to make the right decision with time to think. If this just popped up at the moment you become intimate it would just scare the other person away I think. The 'potential' should be able to choose whether or not he wants to continue dating this person, based on the honesty of that person. I think that they are more likely to continue seeing someone if they are honest from the start, instead of hiding it until it scares them away. just my opinion.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

A. Treat all human beings like you would want to be treated.

B. The sex changed person would probably say something sooner rather than later when they date. I do not fault them for not introducing themselves, as "Hi i'm Barbara, I just had a sex change."

C. You do not "classify them." You just stay cool.

D. What you think is, what if I was this person. How would I want people to think of me and how I would want people to treat me. THAT comes down to nothing about that type of person and rather how do you think any "ordinary" person. You best freind's sister, you soccer coach's wife, your baby brother �_everybody should get the same respect and basic human kindness from you.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
How about who cares what they want to do with their own bodies and you treat them the same as you would anyone else. Why would you treat them any different?

I am thumbs-upping Canada.

[Zimphire]

I would say there was some serious issues with anyone that wanted to do that. But hey, to each his or her own.

[kenazo]

There was a long article in the Guardian Sunday magazine a few weeks ago about the issue of post-op transgenders who later wanted to reverse their decision and become men again (they didn't cover any woman -> men -> woman). Apparently the procedure is not really reversible (easier to take away than create) and so these people are left with trying to be a man again without the physical attributes.

If you think it's confusing for you, try imagining what it must be like for them.

[york28]

Originally posted by MindFad:
I am thumbs-upping Canada.

I am thumbs-upping the thumbs-upping.

[Secret__Police]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:

When should be start calling you Bobbie??

[JohnSmith68]

"why can't they just be gay like everyone else?"

[Landos Mustache]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I would say there was some serious issues with anyone that wanted to do that. But hey, to each his or her own.

And if I told any tranny down the street that some unemployed know it all/Jesus nut has 22,000 posts on a computer forum she would be equally concerned about you.

[starman]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:
And if I told any tranny down the street that some unemployed know it all/Jesus nut has 22,000 posts on a computer forum she would be equally concerned about you.

But a tranny isn't going to mutilate themselves to look pretty. I think anyone can see that difference.

Mike

[voyageur]

Thumbs-upping all the positive posts.

Gender is determined by the brain, sex by the gonads. Sometimes the two don't agree. It's good people have recourse when this happens.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally posted by starman:
But a tranny isn't going to mutilate themselves to look pretty. I think anyone can see that difference.

Mike

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:

seconded

[starman]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:

I meant transvestite, not transsexual. I guess I misread what you meant.

I think the concept is silly only because you can't just "go back".

Mike

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:
And if I told any tranny down the street that some unemployed know it all/Jesus nut has 22,000 posts on a computer forum she would be equally concerned about you.

How many times have do I have to tell you that I have a job sugartits?

The very fact that you still claim adamantly that I am unemployed even when I have told you otherwise says a lot about your mental condition at this moment SWF.

You are just another fanboy that needs therapy. Seek it. Not for me, but for yourself.

I'd rather be a Jesus nut any day than a hateful, insecure homosexual.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally posted by starman:
I meant transvestite, not transsexual. I guess I misread what you meant.

I think the concept is silly only because you can't just "go back".

Mike

Everyone who I have met that wanted to be the other sex never wanted anything but that or to go back. They say they even felt like the opposite sex when they were very very young.

[ManOfSteal]

I'm still trying to get over changing my MacNN username; let alone, going through a sex change...

[DeathToWindows]

I had a collague who was physically male... but dressed/apppeared/sounded female. Scared the crap out of me the first time I met her, but got over it. Cool enough IT person.

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
How many times have do I have to tell you that I have a job sugartits?

The very fact that you still claim adamantly that I am unemployed even when I have told you otherwise says a lot about your mental condition at this moment SWF.

You are just another fanboy that needs therapy. Seek it. Not for me, but for yourself.

I'd rather be a Jesus nut any day than a hateful, insecure homosexual.

What is your job? Graphic design of some sort I guess?

Not really. This is the internet; a place where people throw flames at idiots an nothing is the way it seems... or maybe its just the best insult he can think of.

Therapy because he enjoys insulting some guy on an internet forum?

I don't see how he's insecure.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by TheBadgerHunter:
What is your job? Graphic design of some sort I guess?

Yes, as I have said before.

If you want to talk about SWFs tude feel free to message me. I am not going to derail this thread anymore. It's petty.

[starman]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
I had a collague who was physically male... but dressed/apppeared/sounded female. Scared the crap out of me the first time I met her, but got over it. Cool enough IT person.

I knew someone in college like that. Very odd. Shell-shocked 'Nam vet. Man hands, boobs, and dressed to the 9's.

Mike

[Amorya]

Originally posted by voyageur:
Thumbs-upping all the positive posts.

Gender is determined by the brain, sex by the gonads. Sometimes the two don't agree. It's good people have recourse when this happens.

Yup.

There's a fair bit of information here about the medical issues. I've looked at Gender Identity Disorders from a psychological perspective, where there seems to be a few differences of opinion but the most common view is that, when someone has a gender identity disorder, the only treatment that works is a sex-change.

The common case study that's brought up is Money&Erhardt (sp?), and the followup by Diamond. There was a kid, one of a set of male twins, who had a botched circumcision which damaged his penis. Money claimed that gender wasn't inherent, and suggested that the parents just raise the kid as a girl, which they did. The kid was fine up until age 13, and appeared and behaved just like a normal girl... but during and after adolescence (when she first found out the truth about what had happened), became more and more unhappy with this reassigned gender. Eventually he changed back to identifying as a male.

The theory goes that reassigning someone healthy to be an 'incorrect' gender causes huge problems, as essentially you're giving them a gender identity disorder. Someone who has a gender identity disorder is therefore like the reverse of this - they've essentially already been assigned the incorrect gender, so their outwards appearence doesn't match how they see themselves.


Amorya

[Sven G]

Circumcision? Chirurgical gender change? Hey, whatever drives your already sunk boat...

I don't know what to think: residuals of "male-self-destructive" barbarism in an otherwise "modern" society, maybe?

Anyway, if someone feels to be of the "other" sex, in a soooo addicting way as to be unresistable, well... good luck: you'll regret it, sooner or later, if not for the fact that gender isn't the be-all and end-all of life!

Some years ago, I saw some incredible horror stories on TV of people who had some "unsuccessful" sex changes: better not to defy nature, IMHO!

The cure could, maybe, be to find some more important things to do, together with others, rather than fixating oneself on pseudo-gender B$ which doesn't lead anywhere...?

... And love, of course!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Amorya:
The only treatment that works is a sex-change.

I know thousands of people that would disagree with you on that.

[JohnSmith68]

one thing I've always wondered is: when you have a sex change, what kind of people are willing to enter into a relationship with you? when a guy changes himself into a lady, are there actually straight guys out there that would want to date her or have sex with her, knowing that she used to be a man? or would she instead have relationships with gay men or lesbians? perhaps I am making this too complex, but I digress. who do you date and have sex with after a sex change?

I know, being gay, that I would not want to sleep with a woman who used to be a man. And I have a pretty strong feeling that all the straight fellas out there feel the same way. This leaves me believing that a transexual lady would have no choice but to relate intimately to lesbians, but this is so complicated that at this level I begin to lose my understanding of the matter.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:

Also, how would you classify someone who gets a sex change. Sex is determined at the chromosome level, but calling someone he, when he has become a she, �

Ok, I am confused. Has anyone here been thinking about this longer then I have. I am truly confused about this, and need some opinions, some experiences, so forth. I am starting on a blank note pad here.


Thanks.

I believe after the operations it is proper to refer to people, who have under gone the procedure, as the sex that they are now. So a guy who wanted to be a girl is now a "she" a girl who is a guy is a "he".

Society doesn't see it that way, even if you refer to them by their present sex, society still sees them as their original.

Personally if they want to be what they want to be that is fine with me. Unfortunately, until we develop a method of replacing chromosomes (X with a Y) or (Y with and X) the people are still their original sexes, from a medical stand point. They only mimick the counterpart sex.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I know thousands of people that would disagree with you on that.

Don't be silly, you don't know thousands of people

[JohnSmith68]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Don't be silly, you don't know thousands of people

I'll be damned if he knows 10 people.

[Landos Mustache]

How did I get the name of sugar tits?

Anywho, I know about 20 trannies. I bet Zimph and never known 2. But he is the pro as usual.

[Zimphire]

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Landos Mustache:
I bet Zimph and never known 2.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Zimphire and his false sense of security

[wdlove]

It's a serious surgery and therefore should not be approached lightly.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Zimphire and his false sense of security

Security? What are you going on about?

I call them as I see them.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Zimphire and his false sense of security

I think you mean ego.

[Zimphire]

And you STILL can't stop talking about me.

[Mr. Bob]

Originally posted by Beewee:
I believe after the operations it is proper to refer to people, who have under gone the procedure, as the sex that they are now. So a guy who wanted to be a girl is now a "she" a girl who is a guy is a "he".

Society doesn't see it that way, even if you refer to them by their present sex, society still sees them as their original.

Personally if they want to be what they want to be that is fine with me. Unfortunately, until we develop a method of replacing chromosomes (X with a Y) or (Y with and X) the people are still their original sexes, from a medical stand point. They only mimick the counterpart sex.

I am guessing that when a guy changes into a woman, although he is still a guy (due to every cell in his body being a guy cell) it would not hurt calling him a woman. I mean, he wants to be a woman, and he looks like a woman, so it should not hurt anyone to just call him a woman.

I mean look at Michael Jackson. He is black, but it does not bother anyone to think of him as being white, right?

So, man, gets vagina, he is a guy with a vagina, but for all intensive purposes, people can just think of him as a woman. Makes everything easier.

Ok, that is where I am at now, at the moment.

So, would that mean he has a �mangina�?

Also, I still think that maybe if you get a sex change, which is fine, you should tell people before you get intimate. Now, in the professional workplace, no probs there. Only potential partners should be told said info. If I found out a woman working for me was really a dude, I would not worry, because it is not like I am going to date him/her anytime soon. So, the only people that should mind, are those wanting to get into a relationship.

Kind of like gay people. I do not mind gay people, as long as they understand that I do not like them in �that way�. As people, no problem, as partners, no. Same thing for men/women people.

I honestly, do not think there is an end all answer for this question, but that is what I think at the moment.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by voyageur:
Thumbs-upping all the positive posts.

Gender is determined by the brain, sex by the gonads. Sometimes the two don't agree. It's good people have recourse when this happens.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
How many times have do I have to tell you that I have a job sugartits?

The very fact that you still claim adamantly that I am unemployed even when I have told you otherwise says a lot about your mental condition at this moment SWF.

You are just another fanboy that needs therapy. Seek it. Not for me, but for yourself.

I'd rather be a Jesus nut any day than a hateful, insecure homosexual.

What if you were a hateful, insecure hetereosexual? Would that be okay?

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by manofsteal:
I'm still trying to get over changing my MacNN username; let alone, going through a sex change...

I miss gorickey.

Nobody has a sex change on a whim. It takes months and months (if not years) of hormone therapy, plus major surgery, and more hormone therapy for the rest of your life. It's expensive, and insurance won't cover the cost. Anyone who does it would have to be completely dedicated to the procedure.

Generally, I think most folks who go for a sex change were "ambiguous" at birth, and the doctors made the decision for them. The wrong decision.

It's interesting that in other cultures, being a transexual or hermaphrodite has no social stigma attached.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I know thousands of people that would disagree with you on that.

Do you actually *know* thousands of people? I know maybe a couple hundred the world over, but thousands?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
What if you were a hateful, insecure hetereosexual? Would that be okay?

Nope not at all. But since I am not, I usually don't worry about it.

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
Do you actually *know* thousands of people? I know maybe a couple hundred the world over, but thousands?

I never said "I knew thousands of people"

I said "I knew thousands of people THAT WOULD DISAGREE"

That means I know these people would disagree. Not that "I know these people"

I can't for the life of me actually believe I had to explain that. Or why that was even an issue.

[dcmacdaddy]

I read somewhere, but I can't remember where, that the surest way for a person to distinguish
between a tv (transvestite) and a tranny (transexual) was in their public bathroom behaviors.
A transvestite would use the opposite gender's facilities only if they were "trying to pass"
(i.e.: trying to get others to see them as the opposite sex) whereas a transexual would
always desire to use, if not outright use, the gender-appropriate facilities regardless of
external appearances.

Of course, I think I read this somewhere so it could all be just a bunch of bollocks or just
me talking out of my ass.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I can't for the life of me actually believe I had to explain that. Or why that was even an issue.

Ummm, cause you do the same thing to other people all the time?

I'm just guessing, I don't really know.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
Ummm, cause you do the same thing to other people all the time?

Constantly 24/7 forever and other extreme words.

Got any examples of me hounding someone about something they said that was obvious and then making a big deal about it?

If so I will apologize.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
Do you actually *know* thousands of people? I know maybe a couple hundred the world over, but thousands?

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I never said "I knew thousands of people"

I said "I knew thousands of people THAT WOULD DISAGREE"

That means I know these people would disagree. Not that "I know these people"

I can't for the life of me actually believe I had to explain that. Or why that was even an issue.

I generally don't claim to speak for others or claim to now what others think. So, when you make a
blanket statement about claiming to know how thousands of people would feel about an issue you
need to have a way to back up that claim. So, how do you know that thousands of people would
disagree with the statement that "when someone has a gender identity disorder, the only treatment
that works is a sex-change" (quoting Amorya, the poster of said comment).

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:

I generally don't claim to speak for others or claim to now what others think. So, when you make a
blanket statement about claiming to know how thousands of people would feel about an issue you
need to have a way to back up that claim. So, how do you know that thousands of people would
disagree with the statement that "when someone has a gender identity disorder, the only treatment
that works is a sex-change" (quoting Amorya, the poster of said comment). [/QUOTE]

Because I know thousands of people that believe that there is a way to change anything.

They are usually called Christians.