[Sam Agnew]

I've never been a window minimiser but there's a very nice feature in Jag where you can drag your minimised windows out of the dock and they stay small and 'float'. It's fantastic! I can put them where I want and they don't move and my dock icons don't become microscopic. In fact, I'd like this to become my default minimise action (minimise to floating thumbnail, not into the dock). It appears, however, that this isn't (yet?) an option.

Oh Apple, please do me this one favour and I'll forget your lack of virtual desktops!

[Nonsuch]

I suppose in order to minimize a window to the desktop, you would need to specify where, exactly, it would go, and that might be troublesome. I wouldn't be surprised to see a hack enabling this within a few weeks of Jaguar shipping though.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Sam Agnew:
<STRONG>I've never been a window minimiser but there's a very nice feature in Jag where you can drag your minimised windows out of the dock and they stay small and 'float'. It's fantastic! I can put them where I want and they don't move and my dock icons don't become microscopic. In fact, I'd like this to become my default minimise action (minimise to floating thumbnail, not into the dock). It appears, however, that this isn't (yet?) an option.

Oh Apple, please do me this one favour and I'll forget your lack of virtual desktops!</STRONG>

I agree...I explained how Apple should implement this in this thread. Not many people seemed to be interested or excited over my thread though...even though I think this could be an amazing feature if it was a 1-step process (minimize to windowlet) as opposed to the 2-step process it is now (minimize to dock then drag out of the dock).

In my opinion...the windowlets (minimized windows) should just minimize underneath the yellow 'minimize' button, so that your cursor is ready to click and drag it anywhere (if it needs to be moved at all).

I think this new feature is far more powerful than the WindowShade idea. Simply because it's easy to distinguish which app they belong to...and they float.

With WindowShade concept it was harder to distinguish which apps they belonged to...and they could get buried underneath other windows.

[Guy Incognito]

Actually...this was my suggestion to Apple:

'Minimize' button's default behavior minimizes windows to icon. 'Minimize' button + keycombo (like say the command key) minimizes windows to dock.

or

'Minimize' button's default behavior minimizes windows to dock. 'Minimize' button + keycombo minimizes windows to icon.

and/or

'General' System Preference toggle button that switches between the two above listed solutions to the problem, to satisfy the people that prefer minimizing to icon without having to hit a keycombo or satisfy the people that prefer to minimize to dock without having to hit a keycombo.

And considering people don't normally minimize more than say 5 windows (if you minimize more than 5 windows, you should consider learning the 'Hide &lt;application_name&gt;' key-combo to hide all windows from an app) it will never become confusing.

I normally minimize windows to close other windows behind it or clean up the desktop...most of my minimized windows don't remain minimized very long...therefore, minimizing to a windowlet is perfect. If I decide that a window should remain minimized for a longer time than I originally planned...then I'll just drag it into the dock.

Sam Agnew...I urge you to send feedback to Apple about this.

This suggestion and the Inkwell math notation support suggestion were my two best suggestions to date. I hope Apple doesn't disappoint me.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

[KidRed]

Why? Why do want little icons of windows? I'd much rather have window shades back. Their is a hack for it, but I noticed when running 3+ 'hacks' the system feels funny and slower. So I'd prefer it Apple wrote it in rather then using a hack for them. Easier to me personally.

[Sam Agnew]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>Why? Why do want little icons of windows? I'd much rather have window shades back. Their is a hack for it, but I noticed when running 3+ 'hacks' the system feels funny and slower. So I'd prefer it Apple wrote it in rather then using a hack for them. Easier to me personally.</STRONG>

All I can say is try it and you will see. ;-] I wouldn't have known how useful it was until I did. All those windows from different apps that are burried in a big stack are down there in the corner of your screen. They've got a little application 'tag' on them and are instantly recogniseable as they are miniatures of the full size windows. They aren't in the dock and moving around and they float. It's one of those great Apple shortcuts that is more useful than flashy. Windowshaded windows still get burried and have no visual cue to their identity.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Sam Agnew:
<STRONG>

All I can say is try it and you will see. ;-] I wouldn't have known how useful it was until I did. All those windows from different apps that are burried in a big stack are down there in the corner of your screen. They've got a little application 'tag' on them and are instantly recogniseable as they are miniatures of the full size windows. They aren't in the dock and moving around and they float. It's one of those great Apple shortcuts that is more useful than flashy. Windowshaded windows still get burried and have no visual cue to their identity.</STRONG>

I feel all tingly inside when someone agrees with my opinions.

[bOOzo]

So "windowlets" is included in jaguar? I thought it was a hoax since Apple didn't mention it. Or did they??

Anyway, sounds like a great idea to have it minize to the desktop instead of the dock!

[Brazuca]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>Why? Why do want little icons of windows? I'd much rather have window shades back. Their is a hack for it, but I noticed when running 3+ 'hacks' the system feels funny and slower. So I'd prefer it Apple wrote it in rather then using a hack for them. Easier to me personally.</STRONG>

I agree with this completely. Having windows minimized to the dock, while reducing screen clutter somewhat, does significantly increase the mouse movements I need to make to go from one window to another that is minimized. Window shades keep the title bars in the same location, so all my minimized windows are near each other and near the "maximized" windows.
OS X is full of these little GUI annoyances, including the Alt-Tab behavior (which does not switch between apps based on their "most recently used" order), which is the most annoying part of having to work with multiple apps and makes the Dock extremely annoying.

/rant

[MindFad]

Just bring back the window shade, Apple. Please, please, please.

*Cries*

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Brazuca:
<STRONG>

I agree with this completely. Having windows minimized to the dock, while reducing screen clutter somewhat, does significantly increase the mouse movements I need to make to go from one window to another that is minimized. Window shades keep the title bars in the same location, so all my minimized windows are near each other and near the "maximized" windows.
OS X is full of these little GUI annoyances, including the Alt-Tab behavior (which does not switch between apps based on their "most recently used" order), which is the most annoying part of having to work with multiple apps and makes the Dock extremely annoying.

/rant</STRONG>

But that's why we're discussing the merits of minimizing to a windowlet without having to reach for the dock...

Minimizing to windowlet not only brings back the beloved WindowShade benefit of leaving the window exactly where it is on your desktop, it's also more powerful in that the windowlets float and have app badges for easier identification.

[rgoer]

I sent apple some feedback about this a while ago, whenever it was that the first reports of dragging minimized windows out of the Dock were released to the web. Anybody else who wants to see this implemented should do likewise, right? I mean, this sounds awfully useful to me.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by MindFad:
<STRONG>Just bring back the window shade, Apple. Please, please, please.

*Cries*</STRONG>

Please! People that are so set in their ways annoy me.

You must have been one of those people that wanted the application menu and the old Apple menu back, right?

[ReggieX]

What Guy is after is present in IRIX and other X Window managers. It rocks like a hurricane! I used it all the time in PowerAnimator, and if you edited your .xResources file, you could change the size of the windowlets. Of course, in IRIX, all you got was a generic gray square with the name of the Dialog Box in a small area; with Quartz, you could easily turn them into proxy previews like we already have in the Dock.

I think NextStep might have had something similar, but I can't boot that at the moment to check.

Guy, you should post screenshots in the other thread so folks know what you're talking about.

[harp]

MiniWindows offer a ton of potential. If implemented correctly, they will be an excellent hybrid of windowshade and popup windows.

They offer the potential to have a Window minimize right under my mouse and move it anywhere on the screen, just like window shade.

They also offer the potential to drag things into my minimized windows, similar to popup windows. It would be great to be able to drag a document over a miniwindow, have it scale to regular size, then scale back when im done dropping.

[KellyHogan]

Top Calculette Pro already can minimize down to a floating icon. So any app can be coded to do that.

[Brazuca]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
<STRONG>

But that's why we're discussing the merits of minimizing to a windowlet without having to reach for the dock...

Minimizing to windowlet not only brings back the beloved WindowShade benefit of leaving the window exactly where it is on your desktop, it's also more powerful in that the windowlets float and have app badges for easier identification.</STRONG>

I guess this would make sense if the minimized icons float above all other apps, otherwise I'd have to switch to the Finder to expand the window for an Excel document, for example. Not good.

But floating Icons can be a problem also: I would imagine that an Icon could be more obtrusive than a thin horizontal title bar, and harder to organize. For example, if you have 10 minimized windows, would you line them up horizontally/vertically? If so this would be basically a second dock....
I don't have the answers, I just want to state that this is an area where the GUI needs improvements. I'll give this new idea a try, but I have my doubts.

And the other comment about "wanting to keep things the same", well, there are certainly some things that can be useful in OS X. Do you want to change only for the sake of change, even if the new solution is worse? I don't want the Applications menu back. I do want the functionality of the Windowshades, a better Alt-Tab behavior, in addition to all the improvements we do find in X.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by ReggieX:
<STRONG>
Guy, you should post screenshots in the other thread so folks know what you're talking about.</STRONG>

If someone's willing to host them I will. I don't want my mac.com account revoked.

[PMG4DP]

I've played w/ this feature in the preview leak, and for the life of me, I can't seem to figure out how this will be useful. (I love the icon badges in the dock though!)

[goatnet]

Shoot, there was a video floating around in the forums showing the mini-windows, but searching for it didn't bring anything up. I liked how they looked in the movie though.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by PMG4DP:
<STRONG>I've played w/ this feature in the preview leak, and for the life of me, I can't seem to figure out how this will be useful. (I love the icon badges in the dock though!)</STRONG>

Well...considering in the DP they minimize to the dock and then you have to drag 'em out, you're right...that's not terribly useful since it's a PITA to reach for the dock and drag 'em out.

If they could minimize directly to a floating windowlet, this would make them as useful as WindowShade... + they float (they don't get lost behind windows) + easy recognition through window content and app badge

I feel like a broken record.

[Guy Incognito]

...

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

[akebono]

Is this a good time to remind apple of piles? Seems that this could be implemented in the dock as well as the iconized window, instead of the filesystem paradigm.

[freeandunmuzzled]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
<STRONG>

Please! People that are so set in their ways annoy me.

You must have been one of those people that wanted the application menu and the old Apple menu back, right?</STRONG>

I want windowshade back (actually I have it, I use windowshadeX) but I don't want either the apple menu or the application menu back. so what name do you want to call me?

I hardly ever minimise windows. I hide apps or I windowshade when I just want to peek at the window behind. window shading is a great addition to the other functions because, essentialy, the window stays where it is, requiring ZERO mouse movement. just click-click, look behind, click-click you're back. wht can't we have all three functions? you have a problem with choice?

[b*tchy]

I like windowlets, I like windowshade for different reasons. I hope that once J comes out that someone will let us have both.

Windowshade is great because it lets me see the title of the document. This is great when editing docs that depend on the title or when I am switching back and forth between 2 or 3 windows.

Windowlets are great because they take up very little space on the desktop. Not seeing the title is a problem with some windows, but when working with graphics, it is no prob and is actually preferred. Windowlets are also better when I am switching betwen a bunch of documents.

I hope Apple keeps hooks in that allow the clever folks that write the windowshade hack to let us have a variety of options.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by freeandunmuzzled:
<STRONG>

I want windowshade back (actually I have it, I use windowshadeX) but I don't want either the apple menu or the application menu back. so what name do you want to call me?

I hardly ever minimise windows. I hide apps or I windowshade when I just want to peek at the window behind. window shading is a great addition to the other functions because, essentialy, the window stays where it is, requiring ZERO mouse movement. just click-click, look behind, click-click you're back. wht can't we have all three functions? you have a problem with choice?</STRONG>

Perhaps, but it is also EXTREMELY messy and inelegant, and was only implemented in Classic Mac OS as a temporary measure because Apple didn't have any container for minimized windows.

Personally, if there's something I want to see which I know is just under the frontmost window, I just drag the frontmost window down and then back up again. Not a problem with Mac OS X's super-fast live window dragging.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by PMG4DP:
<STRONG>I've played w/ this feature in the preview leak, and for the life of me, I can't seem to figure out how this will be useful. (I love the icon badges in the dock though!)</STRONG>

Well, it would seem to be great for video/DVD - you can keep the dock hidden and still watch stuff in the floating window. I've missed this feature more than once.

-spheric*

[pdot]

I used a similar thumbnail minimize feature on the sun workstations in my lab and I find it cumbersome if you're using apps that take up most of the screen. It's so much more difficult to switch apps and find windows. I have to keep rearranging my browser, the design app I'm using, the terminal window, just to get to a minimized window. The ability to hide/show the dock helps a lot in getting me organized. I gues what I'm trying to say is that thumbnail option is cool, but like putting HDs on the desktop, I doubt I'll find it useful.

[supernature]

One of the things about Windows and it's minimize function is that you can stay at the task bar to maximize and minimize windows. Where as in OS X, you have to go to the dock to maximize, and to the window to minimize. So in that sense, I find Windows more useful when you just want to look at a different window really quickly.

I rarely find any use for minimizing windows. It's just too time consuming to use. I find using apple-tab, apple-~, and apple-h more useful. In windows you could alt-tab or use the task bar to switch between apps. Of course when you work with more complex programs requiring multiple windows, it's a nightmare to work in Windows (most of these programs were probably originated on the Mac first).

The biggest use I have for the dock are putting my most used apps, docs, or folders there. If apple could incorporate a foating centered app switch instead of having to look down or on the side to see which app your going to, that would be great.

I guess if you're the type of person who can't work with all these windows in the background, the minimize funciton is useful, but as for me, I don't see the need to minimize that often. Perhaps in Photoshop, when I've got over a dozen pictures I want to work with, then maybe I'll minimize.

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
<STRONG>

I feel all tingly inside when someone agrees with my opinions. </STRONG>

Well Guy, prepare to tingle - I also agree with your opinion. This minimize to mini-window thingy SHOULD be a preference. It's freakin' awesome. I do think that minimize to the Dock should be the default, though - would be easier for newbies to manage. Just stick a nice little toggle in System Prefs somewhere for those of us who might want to use it.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
<STRONG>

But that's why we're discussing the merits of minimizing to a windowlet without having to reach for the dock...

Minimizing to windowlet not only brings back the beloved WindowShade benefit of leaving the window exactly where it is on your desktop, it's also more powerful in that the windowlets float and have app badges for easier identification.</STRONG>

I assume you haven't used X.2. If you had, you'd not have the same opinion. It doesn't leave the window exactly where it is. It minimizes to the dock, then you have to drag it to your desktop and put it somewhere where you can reach it. (unless there's some keyboard combo that I'm unaware of, still more work) Then when you want it again, you have to hide everything/show only finder to look for the icon sized mini window. That's a helluva lot more work then double clicking on a title bar.

All I can say is try it and you will see. ;-]

I did, that's how i formed my opinion. It's silly, useless, pointless and a lame attempt to try and replace window shades.

[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: KidRed ]

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>

I assume you haven't used X.2. If you had, you'd not have the same opinion. It doesn't leave the window exactly where it is. It minimizes to the dock, then you have to drag it to your desktop and put it somewhere where you can reach it. (unless there's some keyboard combo that I'm unaware of, still more work) Then when you want it again, you have to hide everything/show only finder to look for the icon sized mini window. That's a helluva lot more work then double clicking on a title bar.
</STRONG>

Come back when you read *all* my posts more clearly. Dude, you can't just pop into the middle of a conversation without knowing the whole story... it's unhealthy.

Actually, because your lazy ass won't read my posts, I might as well re-explain everything. There is no key combo to minimize directly to a windowlet. That's why I sent feedback to Apple and that's what the conversation was initially all about.

You haven't even used 10.2 or you'd know that the windowlets float above *EVERYTHING*...heck, there's even an annoying bug that makes them float above DVD movies playing fullscreen in DVD Player (which isn't true fullscreen...but simply an window that fits the entire screen). So please, spare me the rubbish.

I expect you to flame me back because I've insulted your intelligence...

[SpeedRacer]

Amazing how Apple can pull a technology out of their product, reintroduce it 3 years later, and have it deemed "revolutionary" by the masses all over again...

C'mon folks! Doesn't anybody here remember this feature from Rhapsody/OS X Server 1.2?!

Speed

[MrBS]

I just hope they give the windows a memory by the time it's Jaguar is released. If I minimize it, drag it out of the dock to a certain place, then open it up for a minute I don't want to have to repeat all that mouse movement. When I hit the minimize button a window should go back to where it was last minimized, with the dock as default.
~BS

[freeandunmuzzled]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
<STRONG>

Perhaps, but it is also EXTREMELY messy and inelegant,</STRONG>

in your opinion. I disagree.

<STRONG>and was only implemented in Classic Mac OS as a temporary measure because Apple didn't have any container for minimized windows.</STRONG>

objection. unsubstantiated speculation presented as fact.

<STRONG>Personally, if there's something I want to see which I know is just under the frontmost window, I just drag the frontmost window down and then back up again. Not a problem with Mac OS X's super-fast live window dragging.</STRONG>

good grief you make me mad. to drag the window I have to move my mouse up down wiggle it around. jeez.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Originally posted by Sam Agnew:
<STRONG>I've never been a window minimiser but there's a very nice feature in Jag where you can drag your minimised windows out of the dock and they stay small and 'float'. It's fantastic! I can put them where I want and they don't move and my dock icons don't become microscopic. In fact, I'd like this to become my default minimise action (minimise to floating thumbnail, not into the dock). It appears, however, that this isn't (yet?) an option.

Oh Apple, please do me this one favour and I'll forget your lack of virtual desktops!</STRONG>

Ok, so you've got 3 apps open, with say 4 windows each. A total of 12 windows open, all layered on top of each other. You minimize one of the windows, and it can either:

A. Minimize to the dock, where it is easily seen and accessed from any application, with any window on the foreground.

B. Minimize to the desktop, where it is buried behind 11 other windows.

I'll take A, and so does Apple. Minimizing to the desktop goes against the main reason Apple designed Aqua in the first place; too much clutter in OS 9, with items being lost far too easily.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Originally posted by freeandunmuzzled:
<STRONG>

good grief you make me mad. to drag the window I have to move my mouse up down wiggle it around. jeez. </STRONG>

The horror! How do you manage to piss standing up, if it's such a pain to "move your mouse up down wiggle it around"?

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by OverclockedHomoSapien:
<STRONG>

B. Minimize to the desktop, where it is buried behind 11 other windows.

I'll take A, and so does Apple. Minimizing to the desktop goes against the main reason Apple designed Aqua in the first place; too much clutter in OS 9, with items being lost far too easily.</STRONG>

Dear God...does no one listen? Yes...minimizing to the Dock is amazing because you can't lose your minimized window behind clutter. BUT...minimizing to a windowlet would be just as amazing...why? BECAUSE THEY FREAKIN' FLOAT ABOVE EVERYTHING...in fact, Windowlets are part of Dock.app...kill the dock and the windowlets disappear by returning to their maximized state. Since the Dock floats above EVERYTHING...the windowlets float above EVERYTHING.

[MickS]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
<STRONG>

Dear God...does no one listen?</STRONG>

You are discussing operations pertaining to a) the Dock b) why is XXX feature from OS 9 not in OS X. Expecting people to take note of anything other than their strongly held views is a little naive

Seriously. It would be nice to have the icons minimise out of the dock as an option. Under X-Windows you can specific an "icon gravity" (IIRC it's been a while). This lets you say whether windows should minimise to the left, right, top or bottom of the screen.

[lookmark]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">
The biggest use I have for the dock are putting my most used apps, docs, or folders there. If apple could incorporate a foating centered app switch instead of having to look down or on the side to see which app your going to, that would be great.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">Kinda OT, but check out the wonderful (and free) <a href="http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcgi?id=14857&db=mac" target="_blank">Lite Switch</a> for this.

Needs to be just a little faster with the fading out, but otherwise it's the way Apple *should* have done it.

[grease]

In another thread, someone said that control-double clicking would reduce to in-place mini-windows. Sounds like they may have been playing around with 6c48 (or whatever that new leak is).

[ironknee]

is this mini window the same as tabs?

also i read that there is a slight animation of the copy window in jag...

?

[MrBS]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">Originally posted by ironknee:
<strong>is this mini window the same as tabs?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">no.

tabs are tabs, little bumps of a title bar all ontop of the same window. click on one and the window content associated with that title will now be displayed in the window. click on another and the window content changes again.
~BS

[Spheric Harlot]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">Originally posted by MrBS:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">Originally posted by ironknee:
<strong>is this mini window the same as tabs?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">no.

tabs are tabs, little bumps of a title bar all ontop of the same window. click on one and the window content associated with that title will now be displayed in the window. click on another and the window content changes again.
~BS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">no.

he's talking about Finder window tabs, where the window's name is displayed on a little tab riding the bottom edge of the monitor display. Click it, and the window will pop up like a drawer from the bottom edge. Available in OS 8&9, and *most* useful as a launcher (if the pop-up windows are set to "button" view) if you have a large number of apps/docs that you routinely run and quit.

-s*