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goMac · Oct 12, 2007, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

it's price comes out comparable to the 24" iMac and well below the MP — lots of cannibalized sales there; is that good or bad (i.e. would the total margin [sold units x margin] be greater for this box than on the iMac or MP?

Wouldn't be the first time. It used to be that you could pick up a G4 tower for the same price as a mid-end iMac G4.

mduell · 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by ninahagen

Mark, would you buy one? (not rhetorical, I really am asking)
I wouldn't.
I am not saying there is no market. However, I bet very few Mac Pro users would step back to such a machine.

Yes.

At $100 markup over the Dell Dimension 9200, I'd buy one on release day. Drop in a $100 hard drive and it would be my TV/media/home server box.

Originally Posted by Simon

• Core 2 Extreme QX9650, (3.0 GHz, 12 MB L2, 1333 MHz FSB) ~$900
• 2x1 GB DIMM ~$50
• 320 GB SATA HDD ~$50
• 8x DL SD ~$25
• Radeon HD 2600 XT (256 MB) ~$100
• Bearlake chipset ~$100
• case, other material, documentation, etc. ~$75

That makes a BOM of ~$1300. Add in 40% margin. That puts as at ~$1800.

Silly configuration. Drop in a 2.4Ghz (now) - 2.66Ghz (next month) quad and you've got a $700 retail box. FYI P35 boards are closer to $50-75 OEM and the 7600GT offers the same GPU performance for $50-75 OEM.

ninahagen · Oct 12, 2007, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Yes.
At $100 markup over the Dell Dimension 9200, I'd buy one on release day. Drop in a $100 hard drive and it would be my TV/media/home server box.

I hadn't thought of that use. I stand corrected, with one caveat... such a machine shouldn't be called a Mac Pro.

Simon · Oct 13, 2007, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

Silly configuration. Drop in a 2.4Ghz (now) - 2.66Ghz (next month) quad and you've got a $700 retail box.

Silly? There's no reason to be snotty here. Right after the post you quoted I also wrote this:

Originally Posted by Simon

Another point. If they go for a cheaper Yorkfield that would bring down the BOM a lot. For example if they'd go for the Core 2 Quad Q9450 (2.66 GHz, 12MB, 1333 MHz, Jan 08) for ~$300 they could reduce the overall price of the above Mac to ~$1000. That's one serious iMac killer! On the other it would also reduce their profit on every box sold by $120 (-23%).

The "$700 retail box" would carry a $1000 Apple price tage. Obviously a lot of people here would love such a Mac, but clearly Apple doesn't (say goodbye to the iMac and say goodbye to $120 of profit one every single machine sold).

mduell · Oct 13, 2007, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

Silly? There's no reason to be snotty here. Right after the post you quoted I also wrote this:

I don't mean to be snotty, but there's not much rationale for choosing the Extreme chip when you're trying to reduce the BOM (and could choose another with 85% of the performance for less than a third of the price).

And I did mean $700 from Apple, following Sierra Dragon's $100 premium; it would be a $600 box from Dell and friends. But I think such a box would have a huge impact on high-margin Mac mini and iMac sales.

Simon · 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

I don't mean to be snotty, but there's not much rationale for choosing the Extreme chip when you're trying to reduce the BOM (and could choose another with 85% of the performance for less than a third of the price).

The QX9650 is the obvious choice to build a 'Yikes' MP which is what people like goMac are looking for (which is what started off this whole discussion btw). The BOM issue is of course obvious and I also stated why going for low BOM with a quad-core HEM results in a machine Apple wouldn't want to sell. Choosing high-end CPUs is Apple's way to make good profits. If you go with the cheaper components (like many PC manufacturers do) you have to make profits through large volume — that's especially inefficient for a company like Apple with its ~5% market share.

Apple always tries to stay away from the lowest end in each market:
No Celerons.
No T5x00 in the MB.
No smaller screens for the iMac.
No Kenstfield in the MP.

There's a clear strategy behind these decisions. Obviously if your goal is to get the lowest BOM you would use a low-end Kentsfield/Yorkfield (or go for Conroe/Wolfdale right away), but that's not what you do if you want to make decent profit per sale. Dell and Apple have completely different strategies and it shows in things like these.

And I did mean $700 from Apple, following Sierra Dragon's $100 premium; it would be a $600 box from Dell and friends. But I think such a box would have a huge impact on high-margin Mac mini and iMac sales.

At a BOM of ~$600 that would translate to a 17% overall margin. Profit would likely be ~10%. IOW Apple won't do it. I couldn't think of a single piece of hardware Apple launched at such a low margin. Again, another example of how Apple and Dell do business in a very different way.

Simon · Oct 13, 2007, 11:33 AM

Just for the fun of it, let's look at a low BOM HEM

• Core 2 Quad Q9450, (2.66 GHz, 12 MB L2, 1333 MHz FSB) ~$300
• 2x1 GB DIMM ~$50
• 320 GB SATA HDD ~$50
• 8x DL SD ~$25
• 7600 GT (256 MB) ~$50
• Bearlake chipset ~$75
• case, other material, documentation, etc. ~$75

Totals at $625. Add ~30% margin and you're at ~$800. The iMac would tank big time and there would certainly be some lost MP sales. OTOH this box would still have a hard time competing with Dell's offers.

Taking into account the iMac generates ~$400 profit for Apple, each lost iMac sale would have to be made up for by at least two sales of this box. Again, I'm guessing Apple doesn't think that would happen while I'm sure quite a few people on this board think they would. Just as I know I'm jot the only guy here who'd buy that Mac at once.

mduell · Oct 13, 2007, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

Taking into account the iMac generates ~$400 profit for Apple, each lost iMac sale would have to be made up for by at least two sales of this box. Again, I'm guessing Apple doesn't think that would happen while I'm sure quite a few people on this board think they would. Just as I know I'm jot the only guy here who'd buy that Mac at once.

Bingo. Any consumer level headless desktop would gut both iMac and Mac Pro sales. A lot of current customers don't want to buy the iMac with a laptop CPU/chipset/RAM/GPU, but don't really need the CPU/RAM expansion that the Mac Pro offers.

Simon · Oct 13, 2007, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Bingo. Any consumer level headless desktop would gut both iMac and Mac Pro sales. A lot of current customers don't want to buy the iMac with a laptop CPU/chipset/RAM/GPU, but don't really need the CPU/RAM expansion that the Mac Pro offers.

Yep, this has been the case ever since the iMac came out with Yonah/Calistoga and the MP went dual Woodcrest.

I'm wondering though, if things might change in the not so distant future. There seem to be some pretty persistent rumors about the mini going EOL and it's clear Apple's not happy with the mini anymore. That leaves a huge headless void. OTOH going all octo on the MP would strengthen the MP's position at the very high end. Maybe a Wolfdale/Yorkfield Mac is not that far out after all.

If Apple goes for a somewhat more expensive CPU they can rake in ~$400 of profit per box sold. And if the ACD lineup becomes more attractive they could make even more. That's beyond what any current iMac makes. I'd consider that a pretty compelling reason to look into it. Price-wise such a system couldn't compete with the $600 Dell, but OTOH it doesn't really need to. If more people who somehow don't dig the the AIO iMac are drawn to the Mac (something an octo MP north of $2k can hardly do) that's good enough IMO. The lost MP sales are certainly a bigger issue in terms of profit. I'm pretty confident that a decent HEM with a sufficiently high margin could make up for the lost MP profits simply by volume, but at least up to now Apple is convinced it wouldn't. I don't know, maybe the two bottles of red wine we've had for dinner have made me a tad too optimistic.

mduell · Oct 13, 2007, 08:20 PM

Even if they take a $600 Dell and slap $400 worth of margin on it, at $1000 it's going to attract a lot of people who would otherwise take the iMac or Mac Pro. So sales of those two are cannibalized, but the margin is great.

Horsepoo!!! · Oct 14, 2007, 01:04 AM

I've been waiting two effin' years for a new Apple display.

Simon · Oct 14, 2007, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

I've been waiting two effin' years for a new Apple display.

Me too. The current displays aren't height adjustable and they don't have a second input. I'd like to see Apple add both. In terms of brightness I think they could use an improvement as well (or maybe my 23" ACD is just getting old?). If Apple would indeed introduce a HEM or a low-end MP, having good ACD offers at a decent price would help increase revenue and profit.

According to "A Greener Apple" they want to switch entirely to LED backlit displays by 2008. So modifications to the ACD will be made soon. I guess that would be a good chance to give the ACD a decent overhaul.

Reggie Fowler · Oct 17, 2007, 07:49 AM

So i guess the question is still lingering around. Will Apple release new Mac Pro's in 2007?

techweenie1 · Oct 17, 2007, 10:43 AM

I'm dying to know as well...I need a new desktop.

Simon · Oct 17, 2007, 11:45 AM

There's been another thread discussing if new MPs will be announced Oct 26. The posters there fall into two groups: those who believe we'll get the update in Nov and those that think we'll have to wait till MWSF. I'm in the former group and for the sake of the MP I seriously hope I'm not wrong.

Simon · Oct 18, 2007, 05:06 PM

Looks like the MP waiting blues will soon be over.

AppleInsider | Apple to fire up Penryn-based Mac Pros

kentuckyfried · Oct 27, 2007, 03:32 AM

Thanks for the update...

Yeah, pretty much, the updates are going to occur whenever Intel rolls out new chips now, save for the weird circumstance of holding out for special editions.

Can't hardly wait. =)

Originally Posted by Simon

Looks like the MP waiting blues will soon be over.

AppleInsider | Apple to fire up Penryn-based Mac Pros

zacharykrannert · Oct 28, 2007, 11:33 PM

are we thinking now that they will be released middle of november around the 12" when the penryn chips are released by intel? I really hope its then because I am deep need of a new computer and have been waiting since august/september for this new guy to come out.

mduell · Oct 28, 2007, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by zacharykrannert

are we thinking now that they will be released middle of november around the 12" when the penryn chips are released by intel?

The Harpertown Xeons will be released on November 11th.

Simon · Oct 29, 2007, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by zacharykrannert

are we thinking now that they will be released middle of november around the 12" when the penryn chips are released by intel? I really hope its then because I am deep need of a new computer and have been waiting since august/september for this new guy to come out.

If Apple indeed waits for the Intel release Tue Nov 13 looks likely (Penryn launch on Nov 11). Of course in the past Apple has announced Macs with new Intel CPUs before Intel actually announced the CPU so in principle it could come before that. OTOH the latest rumors indicate the MB update will be first, so Nov 6 would likely be the first possible date for the Harpertown MP announcement.

zacharykrannert · Oct 31, 2007, 06:34 AM

well now it looks like the MB rumors were fake. or atleast half of them with the announcment saying new ones would be released yesterday, tuesday.

goMac · Oct 31, 2007, 09:26 PM

I don't see why Apple wouldn't do both at the same time.

Simon · Nov 1, 2007, 05:22 AM

Of course they could. But I can't remember when in the past they ever mixed consumer and pro launches outside of a conference. When they hold off one of these Apple press events during the year they usually dedicate it to one segment.

Simon · Nov 1, 2007, 07:32 AM

Get ready for some serious MP updates anytime now. Today's MB refresh and MBP updates were both silent.

ninahagen · 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

Get ready for some serious MP updates anytime now. Today's MB refresh and MBP updates were both silent.

I am on the edge of my seat. The new MP should be here any day. Hurrah!

all2ofme · Nov 1, 2007, 11:13 AM

Dp.

all2ofme · Nov 1, 2007, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

According to "A Greener Apple" they want to switch entirely to LED backlit displays by 2008. So modifications to the ACD will be made soon. I guess that would be a good chance to give the ACD a decent overhaul.

*End* of 2008. I caved in and bought a 30". Very, very happy with it. By the time I want a new one they'll be bigger, higher res, and cheaper. Hopefully

SierraDragon · Nov 1, 2007, 11:16 AM

My butt is sore from having been on the edge of my seat for months now...

Still, there is a positive side to the delay. Each day without new MPs is another day for Leopard v0.99 to work out the anomalies to the point that (for those not too risk averse) it may be worth putting only 10.5 on a primary box.
-Allen Wicks

ninahagen · Nov 1, 2007, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by all2ofme

Dp.

What does "dp." mean?

moep · Nov 1, 2007, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by ninahagen

What does "dp." mean?

Doubleposting.

I sincerely hope that the new ACDs are coming with the imminent Mac Pro refresh. It's about time!

ninahagen · Nov 1, 2007, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by SierraDragon

My butt is sore from having been on the edge of my seat for months now...
-Allen Wicks

No kidding, it is reaching near psychotic episode level for me... I am getting a twitch, checking the Apple store in my sleep and being generally neurotic. Also, turning all conversation, however unrelated to the new MP. The other day a friend I haven't seen in a long time showed her new baby pictures, and all I could say was "someday, he too will be working on a Mac Pro... if Apple has released it by the time he is four" (twitch, snort, bounce my knee very tensely). A client asked me if his color corrections were done, and I answered not whether or not they were done, but that they would be much faster to do on the new Mac Pro, if in fact one were to have it, which I didn't but that's OK, not (twitch, wild-eyed suppressed giggle) released yet, cause there's Haagen Daz to quell the nervousness, and copious Nyquil to keep me asleep at night, and anyway what was his question? Are there any shrinks who specialize in MPWBlues Syndrome? If so, pls hook me up.

jmichael · Nov 1, 2007, 04:45 PM

Well said, "reaching near psychotic level for me". It seems like my early morning work routine over the past several months has evolved into one big "google" of the universe, seeking reliable info about an update to the MP. My trusty dual G5 continues to slog on dutifully with CS3, but it sure will be nice when I can give it my sincere thanks for a job well done, and locate it on a side desk (as a back up) alongside a new Mac Pro. Excuse me, my credit card just started vibrating. Maybe that's a sign of things about to happen in the Apple Store.

aehaas · Nov 1, 2007, 07:19 PM

My old G5 DP went south Monday. I ordered a new 3.0 dual processor, dual core tower with 4 Gig RAM and 2 drives. It is only now listed as "ready to ship". I ordered it next day delivery as I needed it Monday. I wonder what I will get and if it will arrive Friday.

aehaas

zacharykrannert · Nov 2, 2007, 11:18 AM

i am here with everyone hoping this thing will get announced and shipped ASAP. I have been waiting since the middle of September thinking they were coming. I have the credit card ready and whatever bump they put on the MP I will be buying.

ballison · Nov 2, 2007, 11:43 AM

the credit card is ready the second they announce the new ones here too I had a macbook pro until it got stolen...luckily it was covered by insurance and Im just going to go with the MP

I cant wait!

cube-dude · Nov 4, 2007, 12:54 PM

Don't know if this points to configuration changes this week or not, but yesterday I noticed that ship times for the 2 x 3.0 GHz Quad slipped from its usual 2-4 days to 4-6 days. The other configs' ship times haven't changed. Hmm. Discuss.

cube-dude · Nov 5, 2007, 08:12 AM

Back to 2-4 days this morning, the usual. Others still unchanged. Tick tock tick tock.

zacharykrannert · Nov 5, 2007, 09:21 PM

so who thinks we will get the update tomorrow, (thats been talked about above)

i really have this feeling like it won't happen but ohh would so love for it to.

aehaas · Nov 5, 2007, 09:37 PM

Got my dual 3.0 that I ordered last week. It is nothing new but did come with Leopard.

aehaas

CheesePuff · Nov 5, 2007, 11:31 PM

I think maybe an update on Thursday.

A couple U.S. online retailers don't have any stock 2.66 configurations in stock now...

goMac · 01:06 AM

Edit: NM. For some reason I was getting really old posts. :-\

Simon · Nov 6, 2007, 02:07 PM

Nothing today. So it's Nov 13?

goMac · Nov 6, 2007, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

Nothing today. So it's Nov 13?

With Apple's Macbook update last Thursday, I'm not sure what to think anymore.

mduell · Nov 6, 2007, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

Nothing today. So it's Nov 13?

Did anyone really expect Apple to get the jump on Intel?

For one CPU model in an existing line, sure, but not for a new product line release.

mduell · Nov 6, 2007, 09:47 PM

And right after I say that, I see that Lenovo has jumped the gun with their announcement. Starting at $1749 for quad core Xeons, but no delivery until January.

Simon · Nov 7, 2007, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

With Apple's Macbook update last Thursday, I'm not sure what to think anymore.

That was a quiet update - those are allowed to be on Thursdays. Loud and fancy MP updates still have to be on Tuesdays.

yikes600 · Nov 7, 2007, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro:

While I feel the pain of my 7300GT card being 'not great' and would love to have a better graphics card (which they sell retail…) I am not sure what you want them to upgrade.

Intel has yet to release a new batch of CPUs beyond the recent quad-core versions… there is nothing past 2.66 & 3.0Ghz

What do you want them to upgrade… ?

if there's nothing to upgrade as you say, then they could at least drop the price. that's my biggest complaint.

mduell · Nov 7, 2007, 06:51 PM

HP has announced their xw6600 and xw8600, both 45nm Xeon based; the latter supports 128GB RAM, so I expect we'll see 64GB support in the Mac Pro. No word on shipping dates.

CheesePuff · Nov 8, 2007, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by yikes600

if there's nothing to upgrade as you say, then they could at least drop the price. that's my biggest complaint.

That, better graphics card, more standard RAM (with no more 512 chips), more standard storage, at the very least. Have it start at $1,999.

imitchellg5 · Nov 10, 2007, 01:41 PM

They need more standard RAM. What the crap is up with 1 Gb standard? The MacBook Pro has 2 Gb standard, the Mac Pro should have at least 2 Gb standard on one chip. Also I think at least a standard 500 Gb HD is needed.