[Athens]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
They aren't taking jobs away from people who would pay into it. The reason employers are willing to take the legal risk of hiring illegal workers is because they can't hire a legal worker at that price point. If there were legal alternative employees for the same cost, it wouldn't make rational sense to hire illegal workers and run the risk of being prosecuted.



And again, all immigrants are not illegal.

Its all about supply and demand. If the supply of cheap labour is there then the jobs will pay less. If the supply of cheap labour is very very low, they have to raise wages to coax people to work for them. Case in point. Fort McMurry in Alberta, because the unemplyment rate is practically 0, starting wage at a gas station is 13.00 per hour. In the city where there is lots of cheap labour, 8.00 per hour.

[Spliffdaddy]

whoa.

NOW I understand why people get so pissed at Simey.

I went from kicking his ass to suddenly becoming "a leftist mouthpiece for the AFL-CIO".

Simey pretends that ten incomes of $35K living in the same household - and no car note - is akin to "struggling to make it in this country". lol.

Hey, Simey, I bet you must have a 60" plasma TV in your bathroom. Right?

The only thing struggling in this country is your argument trying to get a foothold.

Call me crazy, but there's no possible way that illegal immigrants aren't hurting the economy. Why do we turn back the boatloads of Haitian refugees? Do you see a boatload of *help* coming where the government sees a boatload of expense and hassle?

I think the real truth is that Simey is worried he'll have to pay his maids and butler 'over the table' if the immigration laws get tightened.


edited: I don't know what sort of hogwash they teach at Georgetown, but it damn sure isn't how to win basketball games. You have to go to UT to learn that.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
whoa.

NOW I understand why people get so pissed at Simey.

I went from kicking his ass to suddenly becoming "a leftist mouthpiece for the AFL-CIO".

Simey pretends that ten incomes of $35K living in the same household - and no car note - is akin to "struggling to make it in this country". lol.

Hey, Simey, I bet you must have a 60" plasma TV in your bathroom. Right?

The only thing struggling in this country is your argument trying to get a foothold.

Call me crazy, but there's no possible way that illegal immigrants aren't hurting the economy. Why do we turn back the boatloads of Haitian refugees? Do you see a boatload of *help* coming where the government sees a boatload of expense and hassle?

I think the real truth is that Simey is worried he'll have to pay his maids and butler 'over the table' if the immigration laws get tightened.


edited: I don't know what sort of hogwash they teach at Georgetown, but it damn sure isn't how to win basketball games. You have to go to UT to learn that.

For God's sake, provide some backing for these stupid stereotypes. I don't see a lot of evidence that illegal immigrants are rolling in dough with 60 inch plasma TVs and $35,000 incomes. An argument based on nothing more than absurd assertions isn't terribly convincing.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Athens:
Its all about supply and demand. If the supply of cheap labour is there then the jobs will pay less. If the supply of cheap labour is very very low, they have to raise wages to coax people to work for them. Case in point. Fort McMurry in Alberta, because the unemplyment rate is practically 0, starting wage at a gas station is 13.00 per hour. In the city where there is lots of cheap labour, 8.00 per hour.

So what's the problem? It sounds to me that the economy is working there the way it should. Only people from the city with cheap labor should be migrating over to Fort McMurray to take advantage of a labor shortage.

[Athens]

well in the case of the US, just means people are working for almost peanuts since illegals get paid even less then min wage and no benifits for the economy.

[Spliffdaddy]

Simey, you must have forgotten that I'm retired and have too much time on my hands.

I'll prove my case. Just give me and google a few moments alone.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Athens:
well in the case of the US, just means people are working for almost peanuts since illegals get paid even less then min wage and no benifits for the economy.

They are benefiting the economy. Work done for low wages = high productivity from the strictly economic point of view.

Basically, this is merging from an argument about immigration (legal and illegal) into an argument for the minimum wage. That's a little off topic.

[Athens]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
They are benefiting the economy. Work done for low wages = high productivity from the strictly economic point of view.

Basically, this is merging from an argument about immigration (legal and illegal) into an argument for the minimum wage. That's a little off topic.

But they are taking a job away from some one who would be paying into it. If all the jobs become under the table with nothing going into Social Security or CPP, WC, and Medical then the system as a whole suffers because there isnt enough contributors for those that spent there lives working hard to get that when they retire. Takes 20 contributors for every reciever for the system to work. And with all the baby boomers retired or coming close to it the systems are already stretched

It relates to that remmeber.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Athens:
But they are taking a job away from some one who would be paying into it. If all the jobs become under the table with nothing going into Social Security or CPP, WC, and Medical then the system as a whole suffers because there isnt enough contributors for those that spent there lives working hard to get that when they retire. Takes 20 contributors for every reciever for the system to work. And with all the baby boomers retired or coming close to it the systems are already stretched

It relates to that remmeber.

No, it doesn't because again, illegals don't take money out of the Social Security system. You can't get Social Security benefits if you don't have a Social Security Number. And without a green card, you can't get an SSN.

The Social Security system is a big New Deal ponzi scheme that needs reforming. But its problems aren't caused by immigration. If anything, legal immigration helps reverse the problem because it imports more workers to help pay for retirees. Immigration offsets the generational imbalance caused by longer lifespans. Of course, then those legal immigrants will one day be eligible for Social Security benefits as well, so legal immigration today is a short term fix. In the long run Social Security needs to move away from a pay-as-you-go cash transfer system toward an investment based retirement system, preferably with a means test. However, the Democrats are particularly opposed to those reforms, as is the elderly lobby.

But, this really has nothing to do with illegal immigration, because that's down in the sub-minimum wage black economy where benefits like Social Security don't exist. Social Security is a problem of the legal economy.

[chris v]

Originally posted by Athens:
But they are taking a job away from some one who would be paying into it. If all the jobs become under the table with nothing going into Social Security or CPP, WC, and Medical then the system as a whole suffers because there isnt enough contributors for those that spent there lives working hard to get that when they retire. Takes 20 contributors for every reciever for the system to work. And with all the baby boomers retired or coming close to it the systems are already stretched

It relates to that remmeber.

Okay, you round up 3 or 4 million Americans who are willing to pick crops for minimum wage. I'll wait right here until you get back.





<crickets chirp>




I'm still waiting.





<more crickets>







.

[Athens]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
No, it doesn't because again, illegals don't take money out of the Social Security system. You can't get Social Security benefits if you don't have a Social Security Number. And without a green card, you can't get an SSN.

The Social Security system is a big New Deal ponzi scheme that needs reforming. But its problems aren't caused by immigration. If anything, legal immigration helps reverse the problem because it imports more workers to help pay for retirees. Immigration offsets the generational imbalance caused by longer lifespans. Of course, then those legal immigrants will one day be eligible for Social Security benefits as well, so legal immigration today is a short term fix. In the long run Social Security needs to move away from a pay-as-you-go cash transfer system toward an investment based retirement system, preferably with a means test. However, the Democrats are particularly opposed to those reforms, as is the elderly lobby.

But, this really has nothing to do with illegal immigration, because that's down in the sub-minimum wage black economy where benefits like Social Security don't exist. Social Security is a problem of the legal economy.

You need reading lessons is says UNDERGROUND JOBS TAKE AWAY DECENT PAYING JOBS THAT WOULD OTHERWISE PAY INTO SOCIAL SECURITY and as long as there are illegals or people willing to work for next to nothing, that does hurt the economey.

[Athens]

Originally posted by chris v:
Okay, you round up 3 or 4 million Americans who are willing to pick crops for minimum wage. I'll wait right here until you get back.





<crickets chirp>




I'm still waiting.





<more crickets>







.

Pay then enough and you will have your crops picked.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Athens:
You need reading lessons is says UNDERGROUND JOBS TAKE AWAY DECENT PAYING JOBS THAT WOULD OTHERWISE PAY INTO SOCIAL SECURITY and as long as there are illegals or people willing to work for next to nothing, that does hurt the economey.

You have your economics backwards. High wages and benefits hurt the economy. The ideal economy would be one where the worker worked at breakneck speed 24 hours a day for no wages or benefits. That economy would be at its theoretical maximum efficiency because labor costs would be zero.

Of course, that economy would be pretty unhuman and impossible. That's why market economics dictate certain wages be paid, and benefits be given (at a purist minimum, time to sleep, but usually much more than that). On top of those market based costs to pure efficiency, we have added market distorting regulations. Those are mandated wages and working conditions, which are mandated for social reasons.

Because mandated wages and working conditions increase labor costs without increasing output, they by definition "hurt" the economy. They make the economy less efficient than it otherwise would be if it were a pure market economy.

Illegal labor bypasses those minimums. Illegal workers don't get benefits, and are willing to work longer hours for less wages. That's efficient for the economy, but not up to the social standards we require.

[Joshua]

For what it's worth, salary.com puts the median pay for a general labor construction worker in Charlotte, NC at $24,995 a year, with the bottom 25% making below $21,921 and the top 25% making $29,230 or above. So unless the illegal immigrants are somehow jumping straight to the top of the pay scale for the industry, they aren't making anywhere close to $40K per year.

[legacyb4]

Actually, this thread is about these three points made by Athens; not so much legal versus illegal, but simply his beef with the fact that the landscape is changing faster than he can...

Originally posted by Athens:
Any one notice how many immigrants come here and never learn the ways of the land. Another thing that really pisses me off is how drivers licenses are issued. Im all for immigration but I think its time to force English (French for Quebec) as a mandatory requirement before citizenship.

[Athens]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You have your economics backwards. High wages and benefits hurt the economy. The ideal economy would be one where the worker worked at breakneck speed 24 hours a day for no wages or benefits. That economy would be at its theoretical maximum efficiency because labor costs would be zero.

Of course, that economy would be pretty unhuman and impossible. That's why market economics dictate certain wages be paid, and benefits be given (at a purist minimum, time to sleep, but usually much more than that). On top of those market based costs to pure efficiency, we have added market distorting regulations. Those are mandated wages and working conditions, which are mandated for social reasons.

Because mandated wages and working conditions increase labor costs without increasing output, they by definition "hurt" the economy. They make the economy less efficient than it otherwise would be if it were a pure market economy.

Illegal labor bypasses those minimums. Illegal workers don't get benefits, and are willing to work longer hours for less wages. That's efficient for the economy, but not up to the social standards we require.

Whats better happy people or the best possible economey for the few rich? I like being happy.

[Athens]

Originally posted by legacyb4:
Actually, this thread is about these three points made by Athens; not so much legal versus illegal, but simply his beef with the fact that the landscape is changing faster than he can...

Its not tht I cant change as fast as it, its just that if I wanted to live in China, I would have moved to china. Instead China is coming to me. And this was the orginal topic but the problems in Canada and the US are very different and its now become slam mexicans thread thanks to American bigots with some legit points, but some stupid points too. As you can see I have adapted to US economics in this chat.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Simey, you must have forgotten that I'm retired and have too much time on my hands.

I'll prove my case. Just give me and google a few moments alone.

Don't you owe me something? It's been over 24 hours.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by Athens:
Pay then enough and you will have your crops picked.

No, then you'll have consumers buying imported produce instead.

[Dakar]

Just think of how much produce would cost if farming wasnt subsidized...

[Athens]

Originally posted by Mithras:
No, then you'll have consumers buying imported produce instead.

Oh Im sure the US would put tariffs on imports to keep the local market in better shape, already do that with softwood lumber.

[Spliffdaddy]

Oh yeah.

I kinda lost interest shortly after I figured out I was right. All the proof I need is out there. Seemed pointless to lasso it all up and drag it back to MacNN with me.

Knowing I can win is quite enough to satisfy me. Participation in such a one-sided contest would only serve to make me look like a bully.

I'll summarize my findings, though, just to be courteous. Since you asked and all.

Relating to the original question - "Do immigrants help or hurt the economy"

This is a heavily-debated topic, (kinda like abortion) judging from the huge number of results found during a google search. Most are opinions and editorials which have little value to me. Finding unbiased sources of data means you'll need to find the original source of that data...because once data leaves its source it gets twisted and spun around.

It's interesting to note that nearly none of the pro-illegal-immigrant contingent reside in border states or near areas with large illegal immigrant populations (Dubya excepted). While almost all of the anti-illegal-immigrant sentiment can be traced back to border states or areas with large illegal immigrant populations (those who have first-hand experience).

There is general agreement that illegal immigration affects the local economies in a negative way. Costs of education, hjealthcare, and social spending are far out of scale (10:1) with the increase in tax receipts from the larger population of workers.

Note that in all cities with a large illegal immigrant population, you'll also find high unemployment rates for teens and young adults. Of course 40% of urban black teens are unemployed - THERE AIN'T NO JOBS, CRACKER. All the unskilled jobs are being done by illegal immigrants.

6% of the 'legal' working population are unemployed. Yet, somehow, it's a good thing to allow millions of non-tax-paying immigrants the opportunity to work here?

"But, Spliff, they don't have access to Medicare and Social Security...so that doesn't affect legal workers at all."

BS. Pure BS. Follow me here...

I've been in the US for 38 years. There are no people dying of starvation. The hospitals are required to provide necessary medical care regardless of your ability to pay. I've never seen dead bodies lining the street - not even a single dead body. We absolutely *WILL* get stuck paying the tab. Because we're compassionate. It doesn't matter if you've never paid one dime in taxes or social security or medicare.

We'll hire bilingual teachers, build more classrooms, and buy more busses. Because we're compassionate. Because we think every child is entitled to an education, even if their parents haven't contributed one thin dime - and aren't ever expected to.

We'll build jails, expand the public transportation system, and increase government infrastructure wherever it needs increased. We'll do it all for millions of people that violated our laws and skirted the system.

I know I can't get a drivers license or a job without having proof of residency and a birth certificate and a Social Security number. I'd have to break the law, otherwise. Forge something, I suppose. What the hell is a little forgery and deceit when you've overstayed your visa by a few years already? Crime doesn't pay? Apparently it does in the USA. Doesn't pay a lot, but it puts food on the table.

For all of us stupid mofos trying to play by the rules and be good citizens - struggling to abide by silly rules and paying ever-increasing taxes - it's an insult to willingly hold rule-breakers to not only a lower standard, but to no standard whatsoever.

When you're paying an extra $1,100.00 in taxes annually in an effort to subsidize illegal immigrants - it can be hard to make the point that, somehow, all those illegal immigrants will eventually reward us.

When I start seeing $1,100.00 checks in my mailbox, I'll admit you were right, Simey.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Oh yeah.

I kinda lost interest shortly after I figured out I was right. All the proof I need is out there. Seemed pointless to lasso it all up and drag it back to MacNN with me.

Knowing I can win is quite enough to satisfy me. Participation in such a one-sided contest would only serve to make me look like a bully.

I'll summarize my findings, though, just to be courteous. Since you asked and all.

Relating to the original question - "Do immigrants help or hurt the economy"

This is a heavily-debated topic, (kinda like abortion) judging from the huge number of results found during a google search. Most are opinions and editorials which have little value to me. Finding unbiased sources of data means you'll need to find the original source of that data...because once data leaves its source it gets twisted and spun around.

It's interesting to note that nearly none of the pro-illegal-immigrant contingent reside in border states or near areas with large illegal immigrant populations (Dubya excepted). While almost all of the anti-illegal-immigrant sentiment can be traced back to border states or areas with large illegal immigrant populations (those who have first-hand experience).

There is general agreement that illegal immigration affects the local economies in a negative way. Costs of education, hjealthcare, and social spending are far out of scale (10:1) with the increase in tax receipts from the larger population of workers.

Note that in all cities with a large illegal immigrant population, you'll also find high unemployment rates for teens and young adults. Of course 40% of urban black teens are unemployed - THERE AIN'T NO JOBS, CRACKER. All the unskilled jobs are being done by illegal immigrants.

6% of the 'legal' working population are unemployed. Yet, somehow, it's a good thing to allow millions of non-tax-paying immigrants the opportunity to work here?

"But, Spliff, they don't have access to Medicare and Social Security...so that doesn't affect legal workers at all."

BS. Pure BS. Follow me here...

I've been in the US for 38 years. There are no people dying of starvation. The hospitals are required to provide necessary medical care regardless of your ability to pay. I've never seen dead bodies lining the street - not even a single dead body. We absolutely *WILL* get stuck paying the tab. Because we're compassionate. It doesn't matter if you've never paid one dime in taxes or social security or medicare.

We'll hire bilingual teachers, build more classrooms, and buy more busses. Because we're compassionate. Because we think every child is entitled to an education, even if their parents haven't contributed one thin dime - and aren't ever expected to.

We'll build jails, expand the public transportation system, and increase government infrastructure wherever it needs increased. We'll do it all for millions of people that violated our laws and skirted the system.

I know I can't get a drivers license or a job without having proof of residency and a birth certificate and a Social Security number. I'd have to break the law, otherwise. Forge something, I suppose. What the hell is a little forgery and deceit when you've overstayed your visa by a few years already? Crime doesn't pay? Apparently it does in the USA. Doesn't pay a lot, but it puts food on the table.

For all of us stupid mofos trying to play by the rules and be good citizens - struggling to abide by silly rules and paying ever-increasing taxes - it's an insult to willingly hold rule-breakers to not only a lower standard, but to no standard whatsoever.

When you're paying an extra $1,100.00 in taxes annually in an effort to subsidize illegal immigrants - it can be hard to make the point that, somehow, all those illegal immigrants will eventually reward us.

When I start seeing $1,100.00 checks in my mailbox, I'll admit you were right, Simey.

So you weren't able to back up that $40,000 a year income claim, huh?

[Athens]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
So you weren't able to back up that $40,000 a year income claim, huh?

Maybe he means collectively, 12 Mexicans combined = $40 000 or $3333.00 each LOL

[Spliffdaddy]

There is no documentation to reference on the subject of undocumented illegal immigrants and their income levels.

Personal experience, including several discussions with illegal immigrants employed in the local construction trade, has formed my opinion. Residential construction is an interest of mine. I have a working knowledge of labor rates associated with it. When I said $40,000/yr, I was being conservative. That's more like an average wage for skilled labor. Brick & block, roofing, concrete finishing, drywall, plumbing, and electrical are among the 'skilled' trades. That is, jobs which require months of experience to become proficient at. The lowest wage for these 'skilled' workers is about $15/hr ($32,500/yr).

There is no such thing as a 40 hour week in construction. You have a lot of 80 hour weeks and you have some zero hour weeks. 50 hours would be an average workwork - like most other folks in the workplace. $40,000/yr is not a lot of money for working 50hr weeks with drywall - I can say that with absolute certainty.

I don't understand why you're so hung up on how much money illegal immigrants are making. I bet you can't even tell me why it matters one way or the other.

Your other points were weak and fell by the wayside miles ago. Yet you stick to the lamest point you made - to the bitter end - only to find out that it's the easiest one for me to refute.

Get some rest, Simey. It's a bad day when you get beat down by an amateur like myself.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Athens:
Any one notice how many immigrants come here and never learn the ways of the land. Im sure this also applies to Americans in the south too. Im not so much worried about older generations that come here and never learn English, it�s the ones that come here, have kids here and there kids never learn a word of English. I also don�t mind signs in Chinese as long as there is English with it, but I do draw the line when entire neighborhoods get transformed into Chinese or Korean and you feel like a outsider in the city you grew up in. Another thing that really pisses me off is how drivers licenses are issued. The tests are in most languages, and a translator is there to help them through it. On its own that�s not so bad I guess but time after time the translator is actually helping them pass there test and people that have no right being on the road end up on the road. Case in point, most people speed up in a merge lane when entering a freeway, but I have on more then one occasion come across a idiot that stops and puts there turn signals on to turn into the freeway instead of matching speed and merging. Im all for immigration but I think its time to force English (French for Quebec) as a mandatory requirement before citizenship. And Immigrants that reply to this all upset and saying this is unfair or racist, at least you can read this and understand and reply there fore I am not talking about you.

Imagine the horror you would have expressed at the original immigrants' refusal to learn the language of and assimilate to all the various original Native American tribes that were here.

What kills me as someone pointed out is how English speaking people expect everything to be in English when you travel overseas. You think foreigners expect to see everything labelled in their native language when going to the US? The world doesn't exist for the benefit of Americans or their language. If someone immigrates to American and refuses to give up their language and culture I'd say America is much better and richer for that.

I can't believe such racist tripe still exists today in the world. No wonder your nation is in a downward spiral.

[DBursey]

Ours is actually on an upward spiral. You're thinking of that other well-known North American jurisdiction.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
And without a green card, you can't get an SSN.

Not true, all one has to have is a passport and I-94 along with any number of visas. As long as the person appears in SAFE then that person can get a SSN and card issued.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Your other points were weak and fell by the wayside miles ago. Yet you stick to the lamest point you made - to the bitter end - only to find out that it's the easiest one for me to refute.

Get some rest, Simey. It's a bad day when you get beat down by an amateur like myself.

Oh wait. You make completely bogus and unsupported assertions, but you are the one who gets to unilaterally declare victory?

Sore loserman.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Not true, all one has to have is a passport and I-94 along with any number of visas. As long as the person appears in SAFE then that person can get a SSN and card issued.

I stand corrected on that technical point. I used "green card" sloppily. My point was that undocumented (AKA illegal) aliens cannot claim social security benefits. That is correct.

If you are a non-U.S. citizen, in order to become part of the Social Security system, you must have lawful alien status, permission by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) to work in the U.S., and a Social Security number.

Link

The situation with Social Security numbers is apparently this:

When you receive a Social Security card, it will be one of three types:

The first type of card is the card most people have, and has been issued since 1935. It shows the person�s name and Social Security number, and it lets the person work without restriction. SSA issues it to U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens.

The second type of card bears the legend "NOT VALID FOR EMPLOYMENT." SSA issues it to people from other countries who are lawfully admitted to the United States without U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) work authorization, but who need a number because of a federal, state or local law requiring a Social Security number to get a benefit or service.

SSA began issuing the third type of card in 1992. It bears the legend "VALID FOR WORK ONLY WITH INS AUTHORIZATION." It is issued to people who are admitted to the United States on a temporary basis with USCIS (formerly INS) authorization to work.

Link

All of those variations require that the applicant be a lawful alien. Illegals cannot recieve a Social Security Number.

[Spliffdaddy]

Yeah, they've pretty much arranged the laws so that you have to break one in order to work in this country illegally.

'magine that, Simey.

Whodathunkit.

boggles the mind, it does.

[Spliffdaddy]

In Simey's world a lot of sick old Mexican illegals will be starving in the streets in the near future.

After all, they won't be entitled to Social Security and Medicare benefits.

Nah, there's no 'safety net' for those exploited for their labor by the system decade after decade and decade. Whose bodies are bent, whose hands are twisted from a lifetime of service dedicated to American citizens. heh. damn, Simey, you conservatives sure are a cold cruel lot.

I don't blame anybody for wanting a better life. For taking chances, for working hard. I don't blame illegal immigrants for breaking the rules. My Mexican ass would be here, too. Legal or not.

Instead, I pity the citizens of a country they are not proud of. One they cannot depend on. Bad, ineffective governments are often a poor reflection of the wonderful people behind them. Good intentions, ya know... Still I blame government and the society of a nation that cannot provide for its own people. After all, what point is there to sovereignty? What are you trying to keep out? Does something other than poverty and struggle pose a larger threat to your nation? The vigilance for the enemy that seeks to destroy them should be focused within the borders, in Mexico's case.

At minimum, I expect a nation to provide for the well-being of its citizens - first and foremost. There should be no compelling reason to leave. I'm not saying everybody has to be happy, just healthy - and with some small promise of a better future, if nothing else.

The plight of the illegal immigrant worker is an unfortunate yet noble one. I don't blame the result of the problem, I blame the root of it...the Mexican government, by and large. Fully two-thirds of illegal immigrants are from Mexico. If Mexico was situated near the Persian Gulf, we'd have 'liberated' it back in the 70's. Like a tick feeding from your armpit, forever irritating you while it sucks your blood. Thankless, self-serving.

I'm gonna look into your theory, Simey. The one where it's a good thing to have tens of millions more people receiving benefits than the program was budgeted for. Furthermore, there is no prospect of ever recovering the cost, since none of the recipients will ever pay into the system. Somehow, after a lifetime of not contributing to the financial burden of our services - they've somehow benefitted us as a whole by being here. WTF? Let's see here. They don't benefit the local 'legal' population by increasing their taxes, do they? They don't benefit the state or federal government because they never pay income taxes. They don't benefit local or state economies because they don't spend a lot of money. Their goal is not permanent residence, it's seen as temporary opportunity. Make what money you can and send it back to Mexico. Save enough to get your family across the border - so you don't have to sneak back and forth all the time. Share living expenses, transportation costs, and employment. Whatever it takes to *not* spend money here, in the USA.

So if you don't spend money here, and you don't otherwise contribute to the operation of the government, and you had to become a criminal in order to be employed - tell me how you benefit our society. And better still, tell Simey how you benefit our economy. Because he doesn't have a clue, else he would have explained it all to me by now.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'm gonna look into your theory, Simey. The one where it's a good thing to have tens of millions more people receiving benefits than the program was budgeted for.

Whose theory?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Whose theory?

Your theory. Until a few seconds ago, when I saw you toss it out the window.

Oh look! here it is laying on the grass:

"Illegal labor bypasses those minimums. Illegal workers don't get benefits, and are willing to work longer hours for less wages. That's efficient for the economy, but not up to the social standards we require."

You were explaining how illegal immigrants help our economy - I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Go ahead, continue with your explanation.

You were mumbling something about how much money illegal immigrants are making and how that relates to your theory.

Can't wait to hear you explain that one. I'll be right here in the front row. I'm the one with the notepad.

[Mithras]

I agree with Spliffdaddy that immigration should be legal.
I really hope that neither Simey nor anyone else prefers illegal immigration to legal. All workers in America should be afforded the protection of the law, and the rights afforded citizens and residents.

Of course, advocates against illegal immigration often mix with people who sound more just anti-immigration, or worse, anti-immigrant. (As when people argue for checking immigration status in emergency rooms and schools. Or those who want to stem the tide of those damn people, period.)

Likewise, advocates for the well-being of those who have already immigrated often get confused and end up arguing for illegal immigration. That's a really bad argument to make.

I'm for strong border controls, and generous immigration policies that make it easy for people who want to come and legally contribute to society, and receive the benefits of work in the U.S., to do so.

[Spliffdaddy]

Of course you agree with Spliffdaddy. That's how you can tell at what point you fully understand the topic - and it's safe to continue, to move on. Congratulations. Most folks never make it this far. They never see the truth. They don't know what it is to feel *right*. To *be* right. tsk tsk.

Anywho,


I just don't like paying for work that ends up being done, primarily, by illegal workers - when I know several legal workers that are unemployed. Worse is the fact that the 'illegal' labor costs the same as 'legal' labor.

There is an upside, though. You don't build anything in this state without accidentally learning some Spanish.


Cuomo esta las dos foundation vents? Si, es tres blocks from the bottom. los bottomes, I think.

I really feel a deep connection when I smile and say "tu eres las cervesas mas finas" Something I read on a beer bottle. They usually point at me and laugh, chanting "estupido gringo".

[ambush]

paging thunderous_funker...

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Your theory. Until a few seconds ago, when I saw you toss it out the window.

Oh look! here it is laying on the grass:

"Illegal labor bypasses those minimums. Illegal workers don't get benefits, and are willing to work longer hours for less wages. That's efficient for the economy, but not up to the social standards we require."

You were explaining how illegal immigrants help our economy - I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Go ahead, continue with your explanation.

You were mumbling something about how much money illegal immigrants are making and how that relates to your theory.

Can't wait to hear you explain that one. I'll be right here in the front row. I'm the one with the notepad.

Oh, that theory. I was explaining basic free market economics. Labor that is paid less, works longer hours and receives fewer benefits is more efficient from a raw economic point of view than labor which is paid more, works fewer hours, and gets more benefits. That's good old fashioned robber baron capitalism.

If you don't believe me, compare Germany's high wage, high benefits, low hours worked economy to the United States.

That doesn't mean I am in favor of illegal immigration (although I do think it is pretty much inevitable). I'm certainly not condoning employers who break the law by hiring them. I'm just saying that the idea that a supply of cheap labor isn't economically helpful is simply wrong. It is quite helpful.

[Spliffdaddy]

We don't have a supply of cheap labor. Not unless we let businesses break the law by hiring illegals.

That's like saying there's a supply of free BMWs...if you steal from the dealer's lot overnight when nobody is looking.

Your point would make a lot more sense if there was a shortage of legal workers - but there's not. You can't even argue that illegals don't take jobs from legal workers. Because they do.

I'm sure any business would love to pay less for labor. To the point of breaking the law, in some cases. But we're supposed to look the other way? Businesses would love to pay fewer taxes, too, I'm sure. To the point of breaking the law, in some cases. Should we look the other way?

Nobody asked how illegal immigrant workers benefitted businesses. That's s no-brainer. The question was "how do they benefit the economy?"

I showed how they negatively impact local economies in the form of higher taxes and lost jobs. I showed how they *will* be caught by the social safety net - regardless of their lack of contribution to it. I explained how economies, both state and local, can't benefit if illegals don't spend money there. I even explained the mindset of a typical illegal worker. I showed *why* these things are true.

I'm saying it would be better if 'legal' workers were doing the jobs instead of illegals. At least an inner-city teen is likely to spend his paycheck locally, and likely to pay taxes, and likely contribute to the community as a permanent resident. I think that's a better scenario all-around, don't you?

All I'm asking is that you show me anything that might help prove your case. That illegal workers really do have a positive impact on our economy.

I'm saying they don't have a positive impact - not they they couldn't, or never will, or never did.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
We don't have a supply of cheap labor. Not unless we let businesses break the law by hiring illegals.

That's like saying there's a supply of free BMWs...if you steal from the dealer's lot overnight when nobody is looking.

If the dealer was giving away BMWs for next to nothing don't tell me you wouldn't take one up on the offer.

Cheap labor is the backbone of every industrialized nation. There's no way to get around it.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I stand corrected on that technical point. I used "green card" sloppily. My point was that undocumented (AKA illegal) aliens cannot claim social security benefits. That is correct.

Illegal doesn't necessarily mean undocumented either.

Did you know a travelling musician from another country on a visa to come here to perform can apply for and get a SSN?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
If the dealer was giving away BMWs for next to nothing don't tell me you wouldn't take one up on the offer.

Not if it was illegal, I wouldn't.

Cheap labor is the backbone of every industrialized nation. There's no way to get around it.

Well, I'll be first in line to call 'BS' on that statement.

So prove it isn't BS.

Show me how this industrialized nation benefits from illegal immigrants. Show me why it's impossible to hire only legal workers and still have a 'backbone'.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Illegal doesn't necessarily mean undocumented either.

Did you know a travelling musician from another country on a visa to come here to perform can apply for and get a SSN?

A travelling musician on a visa isn't undocumented.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
A travelling musician on a visa isn't undocumented.

But if the musician overstays he's documented but illegal. You gotta be extra careful with the categorization of status when referring to the potential illegal alien.

Still, isn't it a bit wrong that someone who isn't going to be a legal permanent resident here can get a SSN, card, and potentially benefits?

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:

Show me how this industrialized nation benefits from illegal immigrants. Show me why it's impossible to hire only legal workers and still have a 'backbone'.

Are you willing to pick vegetables yourself for less than minimum wage? Should I have to pay higher prices for my apples because only citizens should be allowed to pick them?

Illegals fill many of the worst or undesirable jobs in just about every industrialized country on this planet because sadly the inhabitants of those countries (such as Americans like yourself) are unwilling to fill thoe jobs.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Not if it was illegal, I wouldn't.

Shouldn't it be up to the dealer to decide if he wants to give his vehicles away for next to nothing? Or should the government pass a law saying that BMWs have to be sold for a minimum price?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Are you willing to pick vegetables yourself for less than minimum wage? Should I have to pay higher prices for my apples because only citizens should be allowed to pick them?

Are you willing to scrape sludge from the inside of septic tanks for $12.00/hr ?

Are you willing to walk 'high steel' for $8.75/hr in order to build skyscrapers?

The list goes on. There are countless jobs that aren't worth what they pay. Plenty of 'em that me and you wouldn't do no matter what they paid.

Your only argument is that prices of some things will rise if we stop employing illegal workers? lol. OK, I'm willing to pay more. An apple is gonna have to cost upwards of $1100 before I can lose on that deal.

We have an artificially low cost for certain foods - because of criminal activity. Your argument is that if we eliminate the crime, then prices will increase. And businesses will have to pay a fair market wage for labor. Unemployment goes down and the 'gap between the rich and poor' lessens. Nice tradeoff. So when can we start prosecuting the law-breakers and get this problem solved?

Illegals fill many of the worst or undesirable jobs in just about every industrialized country on this planet because sadly the inhabitants of those countries (such as Americans like yourself) are unwilling to fill thoe jobs.

Go ahead. Finish that sentence.

"...unwilling to fill those jobs for the offered wage."

Illegal immigrant workers are the byproduct of criminal activity undertaken by businesses.

If they couldn't get employed, they wouldn't stay here long.

It's unfair to businesses that don't want to break the law. How can we ask them to compete against those businesses that pay less for their 'illegal' labor?

Are there other laws we're allowed to break? Does somebody have a big list of those laws? It's a big disadvantage to have laws in your way.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Are you willing to scrape sludge from the inside of septic tanks for $12.00/hr ?

Someone else is. Even if it paid $50 per hour I wouldn't do it.

Are you willing to walk 'high steel' for $8.75/hr in order to build skyscrapers?

Someone else is. Even if it paid $50 per hour I wouldn't do it.

The list goes on. There are countless jobs that aren't worth what they pay. Plenty of 'em that me and you wouldn't do no matter what they paid.

But if we aren't willing to do them then someone else is regardless of the wage probably because the wage being paid is higher than the same job back home. Is that necessarily unfair?

Your only argument is that prices of some things will rise if we stop employing illegal workers? lol. OK, I'm willing to pay more. An apple is gonna have to cost upwards of $1100 before I can lose on that deal.

Not just apples but many other things.

We have an artificially low cost for certain foods - because of criminal activity.

LMAO!

Your argument is that if we eliminate the crime, then prices will increase.

You obviously don't own your own business.

And businesses will have to pay a fair market wage for labor.

Fair market wage? Fair market wage is determined by the pool of available labor regardless of the source. What you want is to have the government step in and force wages to be artificially high.

If they couldn't get employed, they wouldn't stay here long.

The fact that a person can cross the border and earn higher wages is the reason why they come here.

Are there other laws we're allowed to break? Does somebody have a big list of those laws? It's a big disadvantage to have laws in your way.

So you have never ever in your entire life broken a single law? Never "borrowed" a pen? Never failed to pause 3 seconds at a stop sign before moving on? Never travelled more than one inch per hour faster than every speed zone you have ever passed through?

Gimme a break.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Shouldn't it be up to the dealer to decide if he wants to give his vehicles away for next to nothing? Or should the government pass a law saying that BMWs have to be sold for a minimum price?

Actually, if the only way the dealer can afford to give his vehicles away for next to nothing is by employing illegal labor, then he is gaining an unfair - and illegal - competitive advantage over those companies who have higher costs to recoup for regular wages/social security.

What you're advocating isn't capitalism; it's mob tactics.

-s*

[Mithras]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Illegals fill many of the worst or undesirable jobs in just about every industrialized country on this planet because sadly the inhabitants of those countries (such as Americans like yourself) are unwilling to fill thoe jobs.

I'm all for allowing immigrants into this country to take jobs that they're willing to do, all the more if no American will do those jobs at that price.

But I strongly feel the immigrants who do so should be legal, so that they're afforded the same protections as American workers. Otherwise they're here at the mercy of the employer, and can be deported as soon as they try to organize for better conditions, or just look sideways at someone.