[olePigeon]

I'm watching a show on TLC called "Modern Marvels" and it's going over the history of music.

It's just passing the MPG3 and had a little interview with some guy from MIT talking about how MP4 works.

Where MP3s are like 3 to 4MB for your average song, MP4s will be 300k to 400k. They're 1/10 the size.

WOW.

[Stuphalina]

If that were true then my 20g Pod will go oh so much farther!

[Gene Jockey]

Yeah, I saw that this morning. He was saying how mp3 is 1/10 the size of the original PCM, and mp4 will be 1/10 of that, and it was noted that the record companies will all probably be concerned over this

--J

[CollinG3G4]

Um isn't Modern Marvels on The History Channel?

[Gametes]

I wonder if the quality is truly comparable.
Windows claimed it's audio format was smaller and better, but that was an outright lie.

[sworthy]

does mp4 audio have the same quality, or better (well, supposedly at least)?

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by sworthy:
does mp4 audio have the same quality, or better (well, supposedly at least)?

Yeah. Well, aparently what it is is that you install some type of MP4 VRM (virtual runtime machine) and it handles something that doesn't have to be embedded in the MPG audio.

I don't know what that something is. All the guy said is that your computer will actually store most of the information used on all the MPG audios, and the actual MPG will only have what's needed.

My guess is that it's kinda like the difference between a MOD and a MIDI in terms of what's stored in the file and what's stored on your computer. MIDIs store all the music components while the actual MIDI file is basically computized sheet music.

Edit: And yes, it's on the History Channel, not TLC. Oops. I'm a sucker for all those educational channels anyway.

[Earth Mk. II]

isn't MPEG-4 audio == AAC?

If so, you can probabaly compare the quality vs. file size yourself if you have QuickTime Pro

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
isn't MPEG-4 audio == AAC?

If so, you can probabaly compare the quality vs. file size yourself if you have QuickTime Pro

I thinka AAC is MPG4 with encryption, which makes it bigger.

[OwlBoy]

I dont think so.....

It just happens that apple released AAC when they released MPEG4 VIDEO.

Though I am prolly wrong...

-Owl

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by OwlBoy:
I dont think so.....

It just happens that apple released AAC when they released MPEG4 VIDEO.

Though I am prolly wrong...

-Owl

*shrug* My guess is as good as yours.

I know that when extract audio from a DVD it's in AAC. They're probably completely different formats.

[el chupacabra]

I've been experimenting with mp4's for some time now so heres what I've learned.

You don't get 10 times the compression of and mp3 with mp4.

You may get double if your lucky. That means an mp4 can be half the size of an mp3 and have the same quality.

mp4 is the same as AAC and it is not "encrypted".
AAC is not the format used in DVDs. DVDs use AC3. They are completly different formats.

Companies don't seem to be updating the AAC codec very often so although it has potential to have a much higher compression, it's a bit poor for now. You can encode your mp4's at 1/10 the bitrate but you will have a sorry sounding mp4. I don't get the people who say they can't tell the difference between bitrates of mp3s. To me its obvious. Its probably just because of my serperior brane.... anyway....if you listen to your mp3s through the computer speakers its hard to tell the different quality of bit rates because they all sound the same with the same shity speakers...and thats shity....so hook up some good speakers to the computer and test your mp4 and mp3 bitrates and you will see that a 128 bitrate mp3 sounds shity compared to a 192.

Incidently I'm converting my whole library from 192bps mp3 to 128bps mp4s. Unless its rap music then I encode it at 112bps which will sound sh ittyer but rap sounds shitty anyway....it just doesnt have the sofisticated sounds required for a high bitrate anyway.

PS itunes and some other audio players dont fully support mp4 so it wont sound as good as an mp3 but dont let that get you down! All the information is there in that mp4 and as soon as the players are updated it will sound beautiful !


oh wait something I forgot to clear up!!! converting between formats such as mp3 to mp4 isn't a good idea. It loses sound quality. what I meant by changing my library from mp3s to mp4s is I take the CD that was originally ripped onto my computer into mp3 and re-rip it into mp4. I like to rip all my own cds cause internet mp3 are too poor of quality for the great and powerful meeeeee....I tell you this so you will do the same. Get your freinds cds, borrow them, and rip them...dont settle for downloaded crap.

[Mark Tungston]

PREDICTION:

Record companies won't be able to stop shyt. they infuriate their customer base and haven't tried to exploit the tech.

We will always have free digital music.

(personally, i support bands i like but not one hit wonders)

[sworthy]

Originally posted by el chupacabra:
To me its obvious. Its probably just because of my serperior brane....

yes, it's obviously that serperior brane

thanks for the info... btw, what do you use to encode mp4's?

[Jerommeke]

whow if the quality is good that means that my music collection would possibly fit on my iPod again!

[el chupacabra]

Quick Time pro, and iTunes with the 'Make Mine MPEG-4' iTunes script.

[scaught]

Originally posted by Mark Tungston:
PREDICTION:

Record companies won't be able to stop shyt. they infuriate their customer base and haven't tried to exploit the tech.

We will always have free digital music.

(personally, i support bands i like but not one hit wonders)

MP4 technology doesnt have anything to do with piracy other than a convenient means for them to distribute their warez.

our forefathers guaranteed us the right to make a copy of a CD you own for personal use and put it on your mp3 player, etc. i dont think that will ever be stopped.

[daimoni]

.

[chabig]

Here is the home page for MIT MP4 structured audio:

http://sound.media.mit.edu/mpeg4/

Chris

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by el chupacabra:
Unless its rap music then I encode it at 112bps which will sound sh ittyer but rap sounds shitty anyway....it just doesnt have the sofisticated sounds required for a high bitrate anyway.

You need to find better rap!

[Mark Tungston]

Originally posted by scaught:
MP4 technology doesnt have anything to do with piracy other than a convenient means for them to distribute their warez.

conveniency has everything to do with it

a 300k file will make sharing easier. at that small size - the possibilites expand even more

[Anomalous]

What's all this talk about how much more an iPod can hold with AAC? Last I checked, iPods still didn't support AAC.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Gametes:

Windows claimed it's audio format was smaller and better, but that was an outright lie.

Consider the source.

[imaxxedout69]

Originally posted by ReggieX:
You need to find better rap!

Oxy-moron.

Anyway, I don't think your iPod can PLAY Mp4s, as it woudn't be able to decode them; it was made for decoding MP3s.... so don't get all excited.

- Ca$h

Two comments:

1. Record companies won't be any more scared. MP3 is already scaring them. The size has already come down to a point where staling is practical.

2. MP3 at 1/10th PCM sounds like crap. It's only 128kbps/sec. 1/5th is more reasonable for quality. What we really should know is what size is an MP4 with a comparable quality to MP3 at 256kbps.

[Mark Tungston]

Originally posted by hayesk:
What we really should know is what size is an MP4 with a comparable quality to MP3 at 256kbps.

thats what i thought he meant


a equivalent mp3 at ~ 192 (256 is waaaaay too high)

if it can be around half a MB to 1 MB - forget about it. record execs will not be able to do a single thing to deter it

[Mastrap]

I'm with hayesk. I can't hear a difference to the original at 256 anymore, if MPEG-4 can give me significantly smaller files at the same quality I'd gladly re-encode my CD collection. When will iPod support this?

[MindFad]

But would iPods be able to read decode them? Could that just be fixed through a simple iPod firmware update? Cool news.

Yay, re-encoding all my CDs is gonna be fun

[klinux]

Man, some people will believe anything. Once every often I will see report of some amazing things: video codecs that can achieve the Holy Grail ratio of 1 minute = 1 MB, Dataplay discs that hold 750MB in a size of a quarter, etc but they are all just vaporware.

New technologies will solve this issue in a couple ways: better compression and/or higher bandwidth. Right now it is much cheaper and faster to do achieve the latter. Come on, if everyone is connected via fiber as some have envisioned, who cares if your 4 minute song is encoded 128 or 256 kbps?

Until the technology is in my/our hand(s) to evaluate, talking about these vaporware technology is well, taking about cars that run on water.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by daimoni:
Uh. Well maybe not the 'rap' you listen to.

All rap is shitty.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by klinux:
Dataplay discs that hold 750MB in a size of a quarter, etc but they are all just vaporware.

http://www.hgst.com/products/microdrive/

Allthough originally developed by IBM (Hitachi & IBM's storage have since merged) the Microdrive holds 1GB and is only 1" big. About the size of a quarter.

[jcadam]

Originally posted by imaxxedout69:
Oxy-moron.

Anyway, I don't think your iPod can PLAY Mp4s, as it woudn't be able to decode them; it was made for decoding MP3s.... so don't get all excited.

- Ca$h

yea, I think the iPod uses hardware mp3 decoding. So, unless Apple came up with an iPod software update that allowed iPods to decode mp4s thru software........

but then, I doubt the iPod has the processing power to decode anything in software.

[nobitacu]

Sounds pretty cool. It'll take sometime I think thought to take over the MP3 market in the world.

Ming

[chingwei]

Originally posted by Earth Mk. II:
isn't MPEG-4 audio == AAC?

If so, you can probabaly compare the quality vs. file size yourself if you have QuickTime Pro

Just some input about MPEG-4 and AAC:

You can think of MPEG-4 as a large "container" standard, which can contain a number of audio or video coding standards. Just like when you create a Quicktime movie, you have a choice of all the different video codecs...It's still a quicktime movie, but the internal compression could be one of several schemes.

AAC happens to be the standard audio codec used in MPEG-4, and definitely what is used in Quicktime Pro with MPEG-4 videos. But MPEG-4 encapsulates lots and lots of other codecs, video and audio and otherwise, and you can "pick and choose" which collection of these codecs you want to use in your MPEG-4 stream.

Someone posted a link to MIT's Structured Audio standard for MPEG-4. That is more of a MIDI-like standard for conveying audio information in the form of descriptors, and a decoder would basically re-synthesize the audio based on those descriptors. Sort of like a MIDI score, but it's obviously much more advanced. (I might be wrong, but I think it's somewhere along those lines). It's one of the many standards defined inside of MPEG-4. It has to do with audio, too, but has nothing to do with AAC, and conceptually, it is pretty different from MP3 or AAC encoding music...

I would tend to agree with El Chupacabra, I don't think 1/10 size of MP3 sounds reasonable...it may be possible to get AAC down that low, but to have the same quality as MP3's you listen to now, 1/2 size seems about right...

[klinux]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
http://www.hgst.com/products/microdrive/

Allthough originally developed by IBM (Hitachi & IBM's storage have since merged) the Microdrive holds 1GB and is only 1" big. About the size of a quarter.

No ****, Sherlock. I own a PocketPC and am much more familiar about microdrive way before you ever did.

First, how do you know microdrive is the size of a quarter? Do you have one? More likely than not, you are just regurgitating what some web site told you, right?

Microdrive is not the size of a quarter. It is about 1.7 x 1.4 inches. For your information, this makes it bigger than a quarter (diameter < 1 inch), or one of those new dollar coins ~1 in) ,or heck, a half-dollar coin (~1.2 in).

Furthermore, nor is this about how much data can be held in a tiny storage media. I am sure most people are aware that there are SD cards (that are truly smaller than a quarter) that is 1 GB in size and CF cards that are up to 4GB in size.

I will amend my comment regarding Dataplay being vaporware though. Apparently since I last checked, they are now shippin their products. One disc holds about 500MB and costs a whopping $10. Any chance of success? I think not.

[krove]

Geez...someone has a chip on their shoulder...

[MindFad]

Hey, it's just little chunks of silicon, guys.

"No, *******, it's not silicon, it's...."

[klinux]

Well, someone has to take on the onerous task of correcting olePigeon's misunderstanding of how technology actually works. You guys need chip in once in a while!

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by klinux:
No ****, Sherlock. I own a PocketPC and am much more familiar about microdrive way before you ever did.

I'm much more familiar about <insert product here> way before you ever did... Because I can... well, ever see the movie Scanners?

First, how do you know microdrive is the size of a quarter? Do you have one? More likely than not, you are just regurgitating what some web site told you, right?

Yeah, from Hitachi's website. That's why I provided the link.

Microdrive is not the size of a quarter. It is about 1.7 x 1.4 inches. For your information, this makes it bigger than a quarter (diameter < 1 inch), or one of those new dollar coins ~1 in) ,or heck, a half-dollar coin (~1.2 in).

That includes the outside casing and Flash or PC interface. I was referring to the physical device.

You had me worried for a little bit there. I was beginning to wonder if you forgot to prescribe my daily dosage of insults and derogatory comments.

[qnxde]

Originally posted by jcadam:
yea, I think the iPod uses hardware mp3 decoding. So, unless Apple came up with an iPod software update that allowed iPods to decode mp4s thru software........

but then, I doubt the iPod has the processing power to decode anything in software.

Actually, the iPod's CPU can decode ogg in 80% realtime, but that doesn't matter - the hardware decoder chip can decode MP3, AAC, WMA, and PCM (WAV, AIFF). So a simple firmware update could enable the AAC playing capabilities.

[Miniryu]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
All rap is shitty.

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion; even if it differs from most everyone else in the country.

[imaxxedout69]

Originally posted by Miniryu:
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion; even if it differs from most everyone else in the country.

Most people think rap sucks.

- $

[rockhaus]

I use AACelerator to batch-copy to into AAC format at 128.

AACelerator: http://www.macnn.com/news/18810

All Accelerator does is run a script to QT Pro, which spits out the copies fairly quickly. Extremely convenient. It's OKAY to refer to these as MP4s.

I then Get Info to set AACs to open into iTunes, and copies are added to my library. They retain the .MP4 suffix and type 'MPEG-4 movie' (though they contain only audio - the format is ubiquitous Media). Their icons are blank, though.

AACs sound exactly the same as the original, but NOT when converted to below 128 (unless the original is below 128). I use a decent home stereo, definitely NOT computer speakers. Using LimeWire, I find shity-sounding MP3's to be very rare.

AAC copies are indeed half the size of original MP3s, (and also of AIFFs, like off a CD or via Audio Hijack), but only when original MP3 or AIFF is at 128 or higher.

When original is LESS than 128, the AAC copy is the SAME size when conveted at 128 (nothing lost or gained re: size OR sound).

Haven't tried listening to MP4s on iPod yet, (AIFFs play just fine, but are HUGE), and iTunes can always be used to convert selection to MP3 at 128: Advanced menu/'Convert Selection...', then wait for iTunes to add an MP3 copy to your library.

AACelerator, AudioHijack Pro, and LimeWire are very cool, very affordable sharewares.

Audio HiJack: www.rogueamoeba.com.

http://www.limewire.com/

I'm not affiliated with any, just a happy customer of all.

OS X 10.2.4

HTH.

[wataru]

Originally posted by imaxxedout69:
Most people think rap sucks.

- $

Actually, no. I personally don't care for most of it, but almost everyone I know likes it. Have you ever been to a house party in Madison? Basically all they play is rap.

And all you people comparing MP3 vs. AAC filesizes... The filesize is not determined by the codec! A 128kbit/sec file will be the same size no matter what you encode it with. What you want to compare is the quality at the same bitrate.

And rockhaus, you can't play your AAC on your iPod because the iPod doesn't support that codec.

[MindFad]

Same here. Pretty much everyone I know likes it in some form another. Unlike me. And as if you couldn't guess it would be popular in Miami, FL?

I mean ... MP4s good.

[itistoday]

How about .ogg? That's smaller than anything out there now.

[imaxxedout69]

Yeah, I bet you all those people in China LOVE rap. And all the old people in Florida love rap. And the soccer moms. And the business men. And the garbage truck operators.

The demographic that buys most 'rap' is composed of white males ages 15-25.

I hardly call that 'most people'.

- Ca$h

[MindFad]

Haha, but that is most people. And Florida isn't filled with old people. But in my area (Miami-Dade county), the majority is Black American and Haitian. Mostly Haitian. Booty music and and rap blaring obnoxiously from every third car that drives by is the norm. The further north you go, it's a bit different. And all the older farts and rich snob *******s live in Aventura. But rap is king in my neighbourhood.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by MindFad:
Haha, but that is most people. And Florida isn't filled with old people. But in my area (Miami-Dade county), the majority is Black American and Haitian. Mostly Haitian. Booty music and and rap blaring obnoxiously from every third car that drives by is the norm. The further north you go, it's a bit different. And all the older farts and rich snob *******s live in Aventura. But rap is king in my neighbourhood.

Bitch-wah?? I live in Miami-Dade country too! Hey MindFad, what's your zipcode?

And Ca$h, he's right, most people who live in Florida are not old rich people (contrary to Some Like it Hot). And most of the people here love rap. I personally like some rap, but the again, I like all music besides country.