[ntsc]

I don't post very often as you can probably see. However the overall tone of this forum has degenerated over the past few weeks. I would like to say that I am fed up with the constant stream of people proclaiming that they are leaving Mac OS X to go to Win XP. That's fine but I don't need to hear about it. This is a Mac OS X discussion forums not I'm Leaving Macs Forever Forum.

I would like to point out that those of you who have legitimate comments or gripes then I don't have a problem so long as it is constructive criticism. Comparisons are fine but "I hate Mac OS X I'm going to XP because I hate the Eye Candy" is simply not acceptable in this forum.

Forgive me if I appear to be preaching but reading comments like the above is getting really boring.

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"It is easy to be brave from a safe distance"
-Aesop

[Milio]

This forum is for discussing OS X, not complaining about the people in the forum.

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by Milio:
This forum is for discussing OS X, not complaining about the people in the forum.

That was his point, right? Let's discuss OSX, not XP.



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The suspense is terrible...I hope it'll last.

[smacintush]

Amen to that. Why even bring it up in this forum? Besides, if they are so ready to jump ship now and go to a M$ product that isn't even out yet they are not really going to let themselves be happy with OS X anyway.

------------------
Believe me, I'm always
right. Unless I'm
mistaken.

I think Milio has trouble comprehending what he reads. I'll be more than happy to chip in for your new XP os Milio.

[gotterdamm]

I think Milio has trouble comprehending what he reads. I'll be more than happy to chip in for your new XP os Milio.

You know, I was trying to think up a nickname for those people who are so chicken they will only badmouth someone while hiding under an unregistered alias, but I found out it was already taken.


[This message has been edited by gotterdamm (edited 04-13-2001).]

Gotter: so if people register, and then badmouth someone, that's ok? "Hiding under an unregistered alias", hmmm. As opposed to the wealth of information about you that you provide in your registered profile? Maybe you have too much time on your hands. Do something productive instead of trying to make up nicknames. this is too easy. I'm going to the BF. You scared me away Gotterdamn.

[gotterdamm]

You scared me away Gotterdamn.

Mission accomplished.
One troll down...

[MattBall]

I can only answer for me.
I have used Apples since the Apple II, and have owned 8 Macintoshes.
On a personal, off-topic note, I run Vegan Outreach, and would love to see Steve Jobs (the world's richest vegan) succeed (as opposed to "McDonald's every day when in Russia" Gates).
I post things like http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Forum3/HTML/004288.html because, to a large extent, I'm hoping someone can convince me that using OpenStep / OS X / Unix on my machine will be a better choice than having a friend build me an XP box. But so far, I'm not encouraged.

[JohnD]

This is thread number 102908098769 with this topic

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mBALL: You must only be interested in WinXP as you seem to delight in posting XP reviews and info all over these fora. I encourage you to take the step towards XP, and let your friend build you an XP box, because the grass is always greener.

[bleen]

What's funny is that OS X's GUI is Eye-Candy, but the OS itself is a very powerful OS. From what I've read and seen Windows is only Eye-Candy.

The GUI is more Graphic intensive, taking a lot of space for little graphical things that are un necessary.

The Removal of DOS... If you really think about it, people were able to write little DOS programs and use them to quickly get things done... those won't work anymore in XP. Funny when Apple now makes OS X off UNIX where little UNIX programs can be built by people to help them.

XML Applications- From what I remember reading, the primary programing enviroment for Windows XP is XML. Making Windows really just a giant Web Browser.

and the true failure to XP... Application Rentals... a.k.a the .NET Program- This is stupid!!!! Do you really want to send a monthly check to MS to keep your Applications running. Do you really want MS to know what you have on your computer and if you legally own it and if you paid your monthly fee?

OS X is a great Achivement Apple has been working on for well over 5 years. Microsoft thinks they can do this in a few years? Honestly, from what I've read about Windows XP, and from use of OS X. XP will be a failure. This isn't just because of my Strong Pro-Mac feeling. It's the way that Microsoft is working on the OS.

[itim55]

You know, I agree with bleen totally. I personally enjoy the little bit of privacy my computer gives me, and the thought of a corporation spying on me and tracking my apps is horrid. Especially when it involves Microsoft. Personally, XP is OK when it has the options to disable all the CPU-intensive GUI tasks that can slow down a system, but that takes all the fun out of an OS. Besides, there is no option to disable the, imho, ugly and space-wasting big blue Start menu and windowbars. I used XP at an aquaintences house, and the UI was so horrible I could not bear to use it for more than a few minutes. Trust me, it's awful. The sad thing is, most PC users are going to simplemindedly think that it's better and be in insipid awe of the big blue monster that won't go away.

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Kato! You have turned my apartment into a..a..Chinese nookie factory!

[the_sisko]

The amazing thing about Windows XP is that even though Microsoft spent so much time on the user interface, it still looks freaking ugly!!

Antialiasing scheme: BAD--worse than OS9 in my opinion

Scrollbars, checkboxes, radio buttons: Very bad--they're like someone claiming to be a graphics artist just plopped in a gradient and called it good

Color scheme: Very, very, very distracting. Although that might not be a big deal, since graphic artists and anyone working with multimedia works on a Mac anyway ;-)

Icons: 64-bit, which isn't bad, but so often they use thousands of colors, which makes the icons look 1/5 as sharp as Aqua icons--see: http://www.winsupersite.com/images/r...p_2462_002.gif

Welcome screen: Actually that's kind of cool, being able to graphically select the user. Good idea, though it's not as secure as Apple's.

Icons on desktop: They decided not to have any but the recycle bin and shortcuts to a couple of things. Doesn't Microsoft learn from Apple's flawed ideas?

Preferences: It's cool that they can change things like drop shadows, captions, etc. However just getting to the preferences is a bad interface design. I never liked those multiply stacked tabs that Microsoft uses--they're very confusing. Apple's System Preferences, with a graphic for everything and everything getting its own spacial place in the window, is much more intuitive.

Final Score: Apple 6, Microsoft 1

[juanvaldes]

I think everyone in this thread should do as ntsc said, and STOP talking about XP. If people want to switch fine! But I and others here don't want to hear about it. If it is discussion about Xp vs X, fine but wait until XP is even released! Right now we should be talking about X vs W2K. M$ always promises the world with every new OS, why should be believe them now!?!
Damn...someone should just kill this thread...

[MattBall]

"OS X's GUI is Eye-Candy, but the OS itself is a very powerful OS. From what I've read and seen Windows is only Eye-Candy."

A very compatible OS, built on NT, available on and with a huge diversity of hardware, able to run a zillion times more software, etc.

"write little DOS programs and use them to quickly get things done... those won't work anymore in XP."

Did you read the review? He could even get old DOS games working under XP.

"I personally enjoy the little bit of privacy my computer gives me"

If I really wanted privacy, I wouldn't use a computer. Next, I wouldn't use one connected to the net. But I'm willing to give these things up to be able to get things done. I agree with McNealy on this.

"I think everyone in this thread should do as ntsc said, and STOP talking about XP."

Um, then why did you post something, bumping this back up?

"If people want to switch fine! But I and others here don't want to hear about it."

I don't *want* to switch -- I have my wife, my co-workers, my mom, my sister all running Macs. But I do want to make an informed decision for my next machine, not a dogmatic one.

"If it is discussion about Xp vs X, fine but wait until XP is even released!"

Jesus -- it is *at least* as finished as OS X is now.

"Right now we should be talking about X vs W2K. M$ always promises the world with every new OS, why should be believe them now!?!"

'Cause the beta exists and works? Works better than OS X does now.

"Damn...someone should just kill this thread..."

Again, no one is forcing you to read this or reply. If you want to make decisions based on one side, fine. I'm trying to become as well-informed as I can, but it seems that most people are more concerned with excommunicating possible heathens!

I'm trying to become as well-informed as I can

No, all you have done is post links to M$ propaganda. Where are the independant critics that have written about problems with XP copy protection, hardware requirements, mp3 ripping, and other issues with XP. Or are these issues too problematic for someone who wants to be convinced to switch.

If you think XP is so wonderful, then you are possibly more deluded than the Mac zealots who are blindly defending OSX.

[smashedapart]

You know, MattBall, out of all of those quotes you responded to, I find it both interesting and suspicious that you didn't retort with something about .NET...can't defend it?? C'mon, tell us why renting software is gonna be so great!..... See, can't do it! Know why? Cause its gonna suck. Plain and simple.


------------------
/.smashedapart
---
"Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!"

Matt you spend a lot of time in a OS X forum for some who is interested in XP

[Orbit]

Oh please, people. If you don't know any more about Win XP than you do about OS X then please don't start posting about it. .NET isn't even at the point now which Carbon was six months ago, so let's not even start up on it. As for the DOS issue, and pretty much everything else, Win XP has no DOS access for the same reason as Win 2000... it has nothing to do with DOS and shares none of the same code. It *does* have a command line which can run DOS programs, but that's such a moot and dumb issue to bring up, I don't know why anyone's discussing it. Just lay off- most of you don't know what you're talking about so it's best to just let XP-charged OS X criticisms roll off your back.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally posted by MattBall:


A very compatible OS, built on NT, available on and with a huge diversity of hardware, able to run a zillion times more software, etc.

Well, it seems that 75% or higher of software that runs on Windows variants are games... And besides, how many word processors do you have to run?

[smashedapart]

Orbit - I'd be careful as to who I criticize...I, personally, do not jump into arguments which I am naive about. Please don't make the mistake of judging everyone...it's not your place, and you'll most likely be wrong.


------------------
/.smashedapart
---
"Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!"

[Ryu]

I think Apple is in front of a new era. If OSX is as good as they say, this can bring back Apple to its historical position where it used to compete against Wintel face to face. XP also represents the new era for the Wintel world. I think we should try to understand XP and if someone is willing to talk XP, I don't really mind as long as they stop saying that they will be going XP. Who the heck they think they are threatening? I am still a WIntel user who is willing to turn OSX but I haven't posted threat letters to all the Wintel websites.

Anyway, I just used OSX today afternoon and I could not belive how beautiful it is. I saw some animation before found on Apple website but it is a lot better than I imagined. It was installed on the new iMAc 600mhz and I guess it was acceptably fast but still, it was rather slow for everyday use. Lets just wait until Steve come up with a "full version" in NY.
Ah, I would like to say that it is incredibly easy to use. I haven't touched MacOS since its 7 version (if I remember correctly... I had LCIII 9 years ago) and I had no difficulty using it. For your information, yes, I played around enough with it to judge (sorry to the salesman and other people waiting but I was stuck on it for at least two hours)

[This message has been edited by Ryu (edited 04-13-2001).]

[MattBall]

I don't know enough about .NET to comment on it.

"Matt you spend a lot of time in a OS X forum for some who is interested in XP"

I'm running OS X. Does that mean I can't be interested in XP?

"If you think XP is so wonderful, then you are possibly more deluded than the Mac zealots who are blindly defending OSX."

Now that is a compelling argument.

I never said that XP was so wonderful. Just that it might be the better choice for me for a new box.

"Where are the independant critics that have written about problems with XP copy protection, hardware requirements, mp3 ripping, and other issues with XP. Or are these issues too problematic for someone who wants to be convinced to switch."

I posted elsewhere an article about the music issue. Given how slow OS X is on my Lombard, and that I need to buy a new main machine, the hardware is irrelevant. And the copy protection is not a problem for me, either.

Man, now I understand why my PC friends went out of their way to avoid discussions with Mac users.

[Mr Scruff]

While I don't like bumping this thread up again...

MattBall, the reason people here are getting pissed off is because you keep posting about XP on OS X - General Discussion. It's not the right place for it - You should post in the lounge or in the battlefront on Arstechnica.

I understand why you might be considering XP, but this is not the place to discuss it. Please, please, please take this debate to the lounge.

[cutterjohn]

...its a good lever against Apple who mereley released beta 2 rather than 1.0 (where's digitasl recording & DVD playback??? even hardware key support for my powerbook?)

Anyways, seriously, who wants an OS that has to phone home every few minutes or so? w2k would make a MUCH better choice fro the TRULY disgruntled, too bad it will never get full driver support with XP on the horizon... (w2k is as bad as OS X in MANY ways, and it has been "released" for considerably longer...)

[cutterjohn]

...its a good lever against Apple who mereley released beta 2 rather than 1.0 (where's digitasl recording & DVD playback??? even hardware key support for my powerbook?)

Anyways, seriously, who wants an OS that has to phone home every few minutes or so? w2k would make a MUCH better choice fro the TRULY disgruntled, too bad it will never get full driver support with XP on the horizon... (w2k is as bad as OS X in MANY ways, and it has been "released" for considerably longer...)

[cutterjohn]

BTW: what was the 7.6.x/7.5.x to 8.x like? I missed it, going, temporarily to the dark side while a poor student...

(was around for 6.x -> 7.x and don't remember the hoopla others are trying to conjure on that change...maybe it was hardcore developer only hoopla...end users & corporations seemed to welcome it, as I recall...)

There was a big hoopla from 6 - 7.

"It takes too much RAM!"
"It's too slow!"
"My scanner doesn't work!"
"Who needs all of these flashy colours [referring to coloured icons] - I want a fast system, not a candy coloured one!"
"I don't want multifinder [multitasking] on all the time! It slows down my machine and takes too much RAM."

Sound familiar?

The only reason people don't remember it is because most people didn't have an Internet connection at the time. I did and remember big stinks in the USENET newsgroups at the time. About a year later, the whining stopped.

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by hayesk:
The only reason people don't remember it is because most people didn't have an Internet connection at the time.

Steve remembers, and that's all that really matters.



------------------
The suspense is terrible...I hope it'll last.

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Originally posted by HeatMiser:
Steve remembers, and that's all that really matters.

Steve Jobs?

Steve was running his NeXT boxes on 68030 chips back then. Left the Mac for dead when it came to multitasking, etc.

And they got better file browser (Finder) perfomance than OS X on a G4.

Where did things go wrong?

Why didn't NeXT engineers write the Finder, as it would have been a damn sight faster than the current one, which makes the whole OS look bad because the Finder is what many people think is the OS...?

[RichardET]

I agree! What is the purpose of these psuedo-religious debates
over operating systems?!!! People, nobody cares if you prefer XP or NT or 98 or ME over OSX, so get over it!!

Originally posted by ntsc:
I don't post very often as you can probably see. However the overall tone of this forum has degenerated over the past few weeks. I would like to say that I am fed up with the constant stream of people proclaiming that they are leaving Mac OS X to go to Win XP. That's fine but I don't need to hear about it. This is a Mac OS X discussion forums not I'm Leaving Macs Forever Forum.

I would like to point out that those of you who have legitimate comments or gripes then I don't have a problem so long as it is constructive criticism. Comparisons are fine but "I hate Mac OS X I'm going to XP because I hate the Eye Candy" is simply not acceptable in this forum.

Forgive me if I appear to be preaching but reading comments like the above is getting really boring.

[RichardET]

People discuss XP or OSX as if these are the latest Brubeck works. Get a grip people..they are operating systems! There is no ultimate operating system, running on the ultimate system, designed around the ultimate processor.

How could XP be any different than NT or 2000 or ME or 98?
How is it a *new* direction for Microsoft? Haven't they been doing
Windows for the last 10 years?

At least OSX represents a true departure from the old, by combining
user-friendliness of the traditional Macintosh with unix elements.
There is no MS operating system as clever as unix, nobody, including
Bill gates himself could ever run that jive by me!

[Buzz Lightbeer]

What makes Operating Systems different?

One word: usability.


That one word is why I'm currently sitting here in
� Mac OS 9.1

when I have the choice of
� Red Hat Linux 7.0
� Windows 98
� Windows 2000
� Windows XP Preview Beta 2
� Mac OS X 10.0.1

They are all on 3 machines within my fingertips. I know how to use all the above OSes and I do use them at various stages through my work week.

But when it comes down to getting the work done that I'm paid to do, Mac OS 9.1 is king.

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by MattBall:
A very compatible OS, built on NT, available on and with a huge diversity of hardware, able to run a zillion times more software, etc.

Ooh, yeah, impressive. To use a game example, we can both run Quake 3, but you can also run Extreme Bullriding. Impressive!

Jesus -- it is *at least* as finished as OS X is now.

HA!

Windows XP is the colored Compaq of software. Slap a cheesy piece of colored plastic on the front of a Compaq and it's just like the iMac! Slap a cheesy over-colorful theme on top of the INHERENTLY INFERIOR Windows interface and it's just as good as the newest Mac OS! It's a prime example of how the "1337 w1nd0ws p0w3r us3rs" don't care about good design - don't seem to mind that they're running a shoddily designed operating system with a poor user experience - but hey, I am envious of that more software remark - I so want to run Extreme Bullriding...

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Kevin Buchanan
The Spirit of Volkswagen
The Retro New Beetle Headquarters
Webmaster, Fort Worth VolksFolks Club

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by Milio:
This forum is for discussing OS X, not complaining about the people in the forum.

Thanks, Milio. Another gem.

------------------
Kevin Buchanan
The Spirit of Volkswagen
The Retro New Beetle Headquarters
Webmaster, Fort Worth VolksFolks Club