[Kate]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
<STRONG>
Kate, what is your point? That OSX should work with drives that need a ROM update?</STRONG>

No, but this is the kind of stuff that newbies will find to be repelling. Firmwareupdate?
Good God! Need a PC to do it? Hell!

See what I mean?

Something that works under 9.0.4 should work under 10.x.x, at least in a limited way....

BTW The Finder still is hardly better than a $10,- shareware, anyone able to lent Apple a hand to cocoaize it? Good God! It still locks up while accessing the network or iTools.(Spinning rainbow disk, a CD ?, what am I to do with that CD anyway, huh??) Most advanced? In what way? Gimme a break.....

I am preparing for the third(fourth to be precise) beta and am holding my breath.......

My point is: Keep your expectations low, these few months passed by and little could have been done meanwhile, so expect little to come out eventually....those $20 may be a good invest after all, but this over-hype is too childish....it will be a longer way to achieve on par performance with 9.1 for 10.1, or to go past it. If and when OpenGL under 10.1 will match 9.1 is not a main topic, if and when 10.x will match 9.1 feature-wise is the question for pro-users.

And those pro-users will pave the way eventually.... most of them still use 8.6 or the likes...think about it. It will not be due to us "geeks" if and when X will make it. Sorry to bust that bubble.

10.1 is maybe a step forward, but just a step, do not pretend it to be a whole staircase, please.

FWIW


Kate - going to find some sleep now.....

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Kate:
<STRONG>

No, but this is the kind of stuff that newbies will find to be repelling. Firmwareupdate?
Good God! Need a PC to do it? Hell!
</STRONG>

Kate, I don't disagree with you that OSX is not half as good as advertised but what you are saying about the CD burner needing a ROM update and it is OSX fault is silly.

The QUE Burner needs a ROM update because it has alot of problems in general, with Mac and PC. Plextor has not made a update program for Mac so the only way to do it is to use a PC.

Apple cannot be expected to make updater ROM software for one stupid drive.

Yes OSX has a stupid spinning wheel and things don't work that great. The truth is Mac OSX is not perfect but it is better then anything else out there.

If you really don't like it though you have the option to move to Windows. Then you will really have something to bitch about when devices don't work.

[dfbennett]

Originally posted by Kate:
<STRONG>


BTW The Finder still is hardly better than a $10,- shareware, anyone able to lent Apple a hand to cocoaize it?</STRONG>

Yeah because Cocoa is SOOO much better than Carbon. It's already been established that a well written carbon app is just as good if not better than a well written carbon one. It's just that the finder isn't a well written carbon app

[sungwoo]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
<STRONG>

Ha ha. Dolt. </STRONG>

Are you?

[JLL]

Originally posted by Kate:
No, but this is the kind of stuff that newbies will find to be repelling. Firmwareupdate?
Good God! Need a PC to do it? Hell!

See what I mean?

What on earth does a firmware upgrade to a hardware device that the maker only made available through Windows have to do with Mac OS X?

Why don't you blame bad weather on Apple too?

BTW The Finder still is hardly better than a $10,- shareware, anyone able to lent Apple a hand to cocoaize it? Good God! It still locks up while accessing the network or iTools.(Spinning rainbow disk, a CD ?, what am I to do with that CD anyway, huh??) Most advanced? In what way? Gimme a break.....

Nothing to do with Carbon or Cocoa, but why should you understand that - you just repeat the same complaints from time to time - have their been an update lately? Will Apple release an update soon?

I am preparing for the third(fourth to be precise) beta and am holding my breath.......

You've been criticizing Mac OS X since long before it was released - why do you even use it?

if and when 10.x will match 9.1 feature-wise is the question for pro-users.

DVD Player is needed by pro users?

BTW. a lot of pro users can't use Mac OS 9 since it doesn't match Mac OS X feature wise (Java, PHP, MySQL, UNIX apps and so on).

[iamnotmad]

Originally posted by Kate:
<STRONG>

No, but this is the kind of stuff that newbies will find to be repelling. Firmwareupdate?
Good God! Need a PC to do it? Hell!

See what I mean?

Something that works under 9.0.4 should work under 10.x.x, at least in a limited way....

BTW The Finder still is hardly better than a $10,- shareware, anyone able to lent Apple a hand to cocoaize it? Good God! It still locks up while accessing the network or iTools.(Spinning rainbow disk, a CD ?, what am I to do with that CD anyway, huh??) Most advanced? In what way? Gimme a break.....

I am preparing for the third(fourth to be precise) beta and am holding my breath.......

My point is: Keep your expectations low, these few months passed by and little could have been done meanwhile, so expect little to come out eventually....those $20 may be a good invest after all, but this over-hype is too childish....it will be a longer way to achieve on par performance with 9.1 for 10.1, or to go past it. If and when OpenGL under 10.1 will match 9.1 is not a main topic, if and when 10.x will match 9.1 feature-wise is the question for pro-users.

And those pro-users will pave the way eventually.... most of them still use 8.6 or the likes...think about it. It will not be due to us "geeks" if and when X will make it. Sorry to bust that bubble.

10.1 is maybe a step forward, but just a step, do not pretend it to be a whole staircase, please.

FWIW


Kate - going to find some sleep now.....</STRONG>

Don't ya love it when individuals (kate) pretend to speak for a whole group of people (pro users). Kate says pro users don't need openGL performance (Maya users don't need that, anyone that uses my is no pro user anyway), Apple, why are you fixing that? Give us labels and windowshade, that's what pro users want! As a matter of fact forget samba! forget OSX!! Kate says pro users still use 8.6!!

[adamtki]

Hey I just installed 10.1 and ran the DVD player on my 333 lombard PowerBook G3 and the app said

"This machine configuration is not supported"
The application will quit now.

I have 192 MB RAM. Looks like Apple wasn't able to make this work well enough on the slower machine. If this is true, then I'm pretty disappointed since this computer can play DVDs in OS 9.1.

[sungwoo]

Sorry, duplicated posting.

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: sungwoo ]

[theolein]

Gooie more, ek glo die maklykste ding om te doen is dat julle in die winkel gaan waar hulle PC's verkoop en die mense daar vra of hulle 'n PC het met Firewire wat jy kan gebruik as julle vir hulle 'n paar dollars gee.

Sorry, folks my mood is somewhat black today after having lost my job again the day before yesterday and I find myself in regression back to my younger days in south africa. The above reads: Go to a local well equiped PC shop where they have a PC with firewire, offer them a few dollars to use it.

[davecom]

I would like to pre-order from the Apple store already. Esepcially if 10.1 will not be available in download form. Apple should give us word on how they will be distributing it. Because I'm tempted to go pre-order on Mac Warehouse or whichever magazine is offering pre-orders, but I don't know if there'll be a free version.

[MacAttack]

Originally posted by adamtki:
<STRONG>Hey I just installed 10.1 and ran the DVD player on my 333 lombard PowerBook G3 and the app said

"This machine configuration is not supported"
The application will quit now.

I have 192 MB RAM. Looks like Apple wasn't able to make this work well enough on the slower machine. If this is true, then I'm pretty disappointed since this computer can play DVDs in OS 9.1.</STRONG>

This is not so much an issue of computer speed as it is a model-specific issue. It appears the initial release of the DVD Player app in OS X 10.1 will be a software decoder only, and as such will not support the specialized DVD decoding hardware found on machines like the Lombard, B&W G3, Yikes G4, and Beige G3. Hopefully Apple will fix this, but as of 5G59 those machines still have a non-functioning 10.1 DVD Player.

I don't claim to be a computer programmer, but I don't see why these machines should not be fully capable of having a working DVD player app. Apple had better remedy this soon, or there are going to be a LOT of angry users out there.

See the following thread for more info on this issue:
http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c&f=3&t=007466

[DoctorX]

Does the GM support the Greek Language? Does it have a Greek keyboard?

I would really like to be able to use MacOSX as my default operating system, but till now (10.0.4) it doesn't support the Greek Language. And I don't mean about the Menu names, but for the ability to write in Greek. There is no Greek Keyboard. I cannot understand why Apple is doing that... There are keyboards in MacOSX for so many languages. Why not for the Greek Language. MacOS users in Greece are really frustrated and there is a lot of debate inside the Greek Macintosh User Groups. I hope Apple will do something quickly... If anyone knows something about a forthcoming Greek support, please let me know...

[godzappa]

sorry to hear about your Job theolein, good luck in any new endeavors you come across

Well the time for 10.1 is almost upon us, I haven't tested any builds past G24 so hopefully alot of the bugs have been squashed since that release, the speed on the build I tried was most impressive compared to 10.04, really, Apple should get credit where credit is due in bringing OSX up to speed in only 6 months of its release.

As for pro users not wanting OSX, I beg to differ. Especially now that Maya is shipping, now THAT is a pro app.

[theolein]

Originally posted by godzappa:
<STRONG>sorry to hear about your Job theolein, good luck in any new endeavors you come across

Well the time for 10.1 is almost upon us, I haven't tested any builds past G24 so hopefully alot of the bugs have been squashed since that release, the speed on the build I tried was most impressive compared to 10.04, really, Apple should get credit where credit is due in bringing OSX up to speed in only 6 months of its release.

As for pro users not wanting OSX, I beg to differ. Especially now that Maya is shipping, now THAT is a pro app.</STRONG>

Thanks, mate. I apreciate it. And as for OSX, at least a piece of good news from a company that has been working very hard to bring us this update. Cheers to apple.

[Tim2 at Omni]

Originally posted by Kate:
<STRONG>

BTW The Finder still is hardly better than a $10,- shareware, anyone able to lent Apple a hand to cocoaize it? Good God! It still locks up while accessing the network or iTools.(Spinning rainbow disk, a CD ?, what am I to do with that CD anyway, huh??) Most advanced? In what way? Gimme a break.....

&lt;snip&gt;

If and when OpenGL under 10.1 will match 9.1 is not a main topic

</STRONG>

If the Finder was written in Cocoa, it would be no better. Sorry. :-). The reason is that you're not going to get the performance gains and multitasking conveniences you ask for without specifically adding threading. Carbon or Cocoa, you still have to detach a worker thread to do all that asynchronous iTools stuff :-P. Cocoa isn't magical, it's just another way to do things. And believe it or not, the two Finders would look strikingly similar.

And I doubt Apple would ever rewrite the Finder in Cocoa. The fact is, they have to "eat their own dog food", as they're so fond of saying. If they abandonned Carbon on what is arguably the most visible app on OSX, do you think Adobe, MS, et al would continue to Carbonize their apps? I doubt it...


As for OpenGL performance... Well, "rumor has it" that 10.1's OpenGL performance is vastly improved. :-). And there's other things that can speed up OpenGL-using apps under X. Tim Wood here at Omni, in porting Giants: Citizen Kabuto, added multithreading to the app, taking advantage of OSX's SMP support and boosting the framerate by a significant amount.

[foamy]

So what's the point of having a "modern," "multitasking," "multithreaded" OS if OSX can't walk (connect to iTools) and chew gum (do normal finder stuff) at the same time. Shouldn't the core application of the OS be threaded?

How hard would it be for Apple to make the finder more threaded? Do you think this is in the works?

An aside. What in God's name is the "Nework" icon at the root level of the finder for? Shouldn't this be the location where you click and you see options like "Appletalk", then if you click on Appletalk, you see your zones and computers which can be connected to, etc. I mean, why use cmd-k when you could just browse your network via the finder. They could even implement a simple connect to box at the bottom of the finder window whenever you click on the presently completely useless "Network" icon.

Tim, how and when will window resizing in applications under X be functioning properly? Must the developers recompile their applications under 10.1 to fix it, at least somewhat? Knowing you're an engineer I'm hoping for some answers... all the rest are speculating and Apple says nothing.

Is it due to poor drivers? I mean, the performance in games and alike are great. Why not resizing windows?

[Tim2 at Omni]

Originally posted by foamy:
<STRONG>So what's the point of having a "modern," "multitasking," "multithreaded" OS if OSX can't walk (connect to iTools) and chew gum (do normal finder stuff) at the same time. Shouldn't the core application of the OS be threaded?

How hard would it be for Apple to make the finder more threaded? Do you think this is in the works?

</STRONG>

You're right, it should be multithreaded. My guess is that there is some issue (threading brings up lots of issues ;-)) that prevents them from feeling good (safe) about making it all multitasky and stuff.

I don't know how hard it would be... Not only do I not work on the Finder, but I don't work at Apple :-). But judging by how long it's taken them to do this, I'd imagine it's fairly difficult in the case of iTools.

[theolein]

I think Kate is perhaps a bit frustrated with developments in OSX up to now.....
and it is understandable from her viewpoint at least. If you do graphics you will no doubt be using photoshop which hasn't been available natively for osx and osx's support for devices etc has been sketchy uptill now. As far as I know Kate hasn't been trying one pirated build after another and hasn't seen the speed boosts etc. And I suppose she criticises it for the simple reason that she probably likes it somehow or else she probably wouldn't bother. Suggesting she move to windows is a bit old, don't you think? I mean we've all had our gripes about OSX. For instance just now I was wondering why anyone at Apple, considering the huge stress they've been under to deliver this OS actually went ahead and wasted time by programming such doo dahs like the shift-minimize feature.(I know it isn't much work, I'm just trying to make a point) when they've had certainly more pressing features to implement.

[Tim2 at Omni]

Originally posted by &lt;Please tell us&gt;:
<STRONG>Tim, how and when will window resizing in applications under X be functioning properly? Must the developers recompile their applications under 10.1 to fix it, at least somewhat? Knowing you're an engineer I'm hoping for some answers... all the rest are speculating and Apple says nothing.

Is it due to poor drivers? I mean, the performance in games and alike are great. Why not resizing windows?</STRONG>

Developers will not have to recompile their applications to make use of most of the optimizations on 10.1. That's the beauty of having such a great set of frameworks and libraries... a lot of the optimization is left to Apple :-).

People who made use of private APIs might have to recompile, though.

Just wait the short while until 10.1 is out to see how much faster it is for you. It really depends on the machine -- some machines will *never* be able to resize windows fast. Just take Apple's word for it when they say it's faster, k?

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
<STRONG>
Kate, what is your point? That OSX should work with drives that need a ROM update?</STRONG>

I think she was poking fun at the fact that you need a PC to do it; you can't do it on a mac. Not that I agree with her assessment, but that's what I think she was getting at.

F-bacher

[spectre]

Hrm, well I'm not sure if I should be posting this here.. but I've been using 5g59 for a while and I'm really impressed. Its not as fast as OS 9 as far as the GUI goes, but its faster in a lot of other ways... (oh yeah, I'm on a Rev A iMac

Apple seems to really have adopted a mouse with a scroll wheel and a second button. For some dumb reason, I right clicked on the desktop and scrolled the scroll wheel.. I then noticed that the scroll wheel scrolled through the menus I thought that was kinda cool, although I dont know how usefull it really would be.

As for the finder, I'd say its one of the fastest Apps I use in OS X. Other then the lack of multithreading, I'm very impressed with it. It by far has the best window resizing out of any app i've used.

Ben

[hmpff]

I think Kate is perhaps a bit frustrated with developments in OSX up to now..... and it is understandable from her viewpoint at least.

I don't think there are any reasons to get upset about an operating system. Since OS X is out, it's like suddenly Mac OS 9 stopped working and people are forced to use Mac OS X. If Mac OS X is not as fast as Mac OS 9 used to be, then continue using Mac OS 9, until you need an app that is available for OS X and not for OS 9.

Take a deep breath, and let that frustration go away.

[jimmac]

Kate, Kate, Kate, ( head shakes )

What is it you do to your computer to cause all these problems? I haven't played with the latest build but, you seem to be the only one ( getting up on your pulpit again ) complaining about these things again. And yes, you do act like you speak for everyone when the problems you talk about are not being reported by anyone but you ( well there is Applenut ).

[Catfish_Man]

I've been wondering, when I upgraded to 10.04 I noticed no performance gain, when I upgraded from 128 to 384 MBs of RAM I noticed very little; how much of a speed increase will 10.1 be? (Obviously it will do something, but how much). I'm running the original beige g3 with 384MBs of ram and a 30gb 7200rpm quantum hd (the 4gb one the came with it blew out).

[jock]

I'm sorry was the topic of this thread 5g64=golden Master? or lets fix kates Que burner?...
Can anyone post info on 5g64 specifically, samba, airport (software basestation) etc and lets get back on track

[KidRed]

LOL, I guess I'll add to the off topic discussion.

Kate- My Que firewire works fine in X, I just burned with Toast X 3 days ago. Did you check all your iTunes extensions and such as they don't get along with Toast and vise versa if you don't use Toast. (if you don't maybe you should)

[spectre]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
<STRONG>I've been wondering, when I upgraded to 10.04 I noticed no performance gain, when I upgraded from 128 to 384 MBs of RAM I noticed very little; how much of a speed increase will 10.1 be? (Obviously it will do something, but how much). I'm running the original beige g3 with 384MBs of ram and a 30gb 7200rpm quantum hd (the 4gb one the came with it blew out).</STRONG>

10.1is waaay faster then 10.0.4 in almost all aspects excluding window dragging.. App launching is as fast as OS 9 if not faster at times (I'd say iTunes launches faster in OS X on my Rev A iMac).. I'd say it isn't quite as big of an issue as it was Window resizing is waaay better in the finder, but doesn't seem much different in other apps. I can live with choppy window resizing though i guess.. (I wish i could have the outline option tho).. switching between apps isn't as fast as OS 9, but for me when I run IE in 9, it pretty much bogs down all my other apps; this isn't a prob in X.

I would think that OS X would run quite a bit faster on your beige g3 then on my Rev A iMac. Youve got more ram then me, and a faster HD; and you might have a faster computer (the 233 beige is probably faster then the 233 imac anyways). I think you'll be very VERY pleased from going to 10.0.4 to 10.1, but if your going from OS 9 to 10.1 you still will probably think its a bit slow on older machines. On pretty much any high Mhz g3, or any g4, this baby would fly!

Ben

[NeilCharter]

Well Kate you certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons.

A couple of things - the QueFire 10x12x32 works fine so it's a case of the older peripherals having trouble with a new OS. To put this in perspective a bit I did read an article about XP. Interestingly the article whilst generally praising M$'s latest offering did note that users with peripherals should stay clear of it for a while. So this happens to other OS's too.

One thing to consider is that there a many advantages to upgrading your CD burner - mostly since the burn rate is faster but also for buffer protection etc. I like my burner and it's been working since 4K78, although the burning software is mostly AWOL.

The other thing is that peoples needs are different. There's no need for people to get defensive cos of criticism. Remember the furore about speed was really taken to heart by Apple and they've done something about it. It helps to criticize.

I've been using X for a while full time. Sure it's slow but you can do more things at the same time. For me that's enough. 5G48 is great and I just dl 59. That's helped me out a lot too. Office X also looks cute. PS works pretty well in Classic (for my needs). Overall the main thing is no crashes and a superior interface.

Neil

[Arty50]

Originally posted by spectre:
<STRONG>Hrm, well I'm not sure if I should be posting this here.. but I've been using 5g59 for a while and I'm really impressed. Its not as fast as OS 9 as far as the GUI goes, but its faster in a lot of other ways... (oh yeah, I'm on a Rev A iMac
</STRONG>

You two posts have just made my day. Thank you so much.

Rev A iMac, 512M RAM, 45G HD, Voodoo2, and soon 10.1!

[TC]

Originally posted by godzappa:
<STRONG>Apple should get credit where credit is due in bringing OSX up to speed in only 6 months of its release.</STRONG>

You are kidding, right?

I have been pro Apple + Mac OS X in these forums, but come off it, you can�t praise Apple for releasing a slow OS and then managing to improve speed after 6 months.

[Orbit]

YEAH YOU CAN!!! Do you know how long Microsoft had to improve speed on Windows 2000, not to mention how much more manpower? If you don't see the merits of their technological achievements, take it on faith from people who know their programming shiznit. This stuff is really difficult, and six months for the kinds of improvements which are in 10.1 (which I'm running.. 5G64... like a dream) isn't a long time at all.

[SmileyDude]

Here's my initial observations (just installed 5G64 in the past hours)... This is all on a 366mhz 2000 iBook, 320mb RAM.

I did a clean install, because I have had some problems lately and I figured now would be a good chance for a clean start.

Launch times are better... but I don't know about that 1 bounce thing... at least it's not happening here. On the other hand, IE has been significantly sped up on launch.

Login times are great. I'm so used to waiting for the desktop, that I was completely surprised by how quickly it showed up.

Menulings (or whatever they are called) are really nice. Really good implementation (IMHO) over docklings... I just wish there was a CPU monitor one as well.

During the install, the monitor profile used was the default one. This made everything look washed out. After it rebooted, it was fine. But, I had some headphones plugged in when I logged in. It reverted back to the default profile. I had to unplug them to be able to choose the ibook profile. This may have been an isolated problem, but it was certainly frustrating for a while.

Brightness/volume keys -- oh it's great to have that functionality back

Beyond that, I'm still settling in. Not any earth shattering changes... just good fundamental improvements that go a long way. I'm sure there are going to be more updates to catch other stuff that has been missed, but if 10.1 is any indications, future versions are gonna rock.

[Jim Paradise]

he he... Orbit... wanna care to elaborate on the differences between 10.0.4 and 5G64 speed-wise and such...? Did Apple manage to cram further opitmizations into 5G64?

~ Brother Paradise of Sawtooth ~

[Orbit]

It's not really any faster than 5G48 or 59, but it's less buggy than 48, and it's SO much faster than 10.0.4. IE does launch in one bounce for me. Everything's fluid. A joy to use

[Jim Paradise]

Excellent! I don't have a burner so playing with builds= not possible for me. At the same time I'm really excited about seeing this jump in speed increase in a week or so, and am glad I haven't had opportunity to spoil that for myself!

~ Brother Paradise of Sawtooth ~

[ratlater]

I've installed 5G64 on two machines: DP 500 512 MB RAM Rage 128 & Dual-USB iBook 256 MB RAM

The DP G4 is unreal...as I write this I'm watching Baseketball and it hasn't dropped a frame yet! I'm shocked by how well the DVD player is running. Everything else about the OS is lightning fast as well.

The iBook is noticeably slower the DP, but it is still a huge improvement over 10.0.4. I can actually resize column view now, and the DVD player is again amazing. No matter what I do, be it mounting the iDisk, surfing the web or compiling software the DVD player doesn't drop a frame.

I'd like to say a big thanks to Apple for all the hard work on this update and OS X in general.

-ratlater

[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by JLL:
<STRONG>

BTW. a lot of pro users can't use Mac OS 9 since it doesn't match Mac OS X feature wise (Java, PHP, MySQL, UNIX apps and so on).</STRONG>

Excellent point - I am one of those people. I used to be a rabid Mac OS 9- fanatic; now I could never go back to it.

[Gee4orce]

I get the feeling sometimes that - much like the world economy has talked itself into a recession at the moment - we OS X users are talking ourselves into believing that OS X is slow.

TO tell you the truth, I have never seen any benchmarking for OS X - other than application launching times (fixed in 10.1), wake from sleep (instant), web server responsivenes (comparable, or slightly better than, linux) and audio latency times (thoroughly trounced everything else).

Where are the metrics that prove X to be 'slow' then ?

[pelorus]

Originally posted by foamy:
<STRONG>So what's the point of having a "modern," "multitasking," "multithreaded" OS if OSX can't walk (connect to iTools) and chew gum (do normal finder stuff) at the same time. Shouldn't the core application of the OS be threaded? </STRONG>
The OS is multithreaded - the Finder is not the OS.
While the Finder is waiting for data (idisk is a LOT faster using WebDAV than Appleshare) you can use other applications.
<STRONG>
How hard would it be for Apple to make the finder more threaded? Do you think this is in the works?[/QB
I think there's more mileage in the reference to being more than one Finder in future releases.

[QB]
An aside. What in God's name is the "Nework" icon at the root level of the finder for? Shouldn't this be the location where you click and you see options like "Appletalk", then if you click on Appletalk, you see your zones and computers which can be connected to, etc. I mean, why use cmd-k when you could just browse your network via the finder. They could even implement a simple connect to box at the bottom of the finder window whenever you click on the presently completely useless "Network" icon.</STRONG>

Well for established networks it is useful but for the home user...well...it's pants...

[Sam Agnew]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
<STRONG>Excellent! I don't have a burner so playing with builds= not possible for me. At the same time I'm really excited about seeing this jump in speed increase in a week or so, and am glad I haven't had opportunity to spoil that for myself!

~ Brother Paradise of Sawtooth ~</STRONG>

I don't have a burner either. All you need is a spare partition of 650MB or more and the Apple Software Restore application. Mount the image (with Disk Copy if its a DC image, with Toast if it's a Toast image) and then drag the mounted image to Apple Software Restore. ASR launches and asks which partition you want to restore it to. And there you go. It's even faster to boot from and install from than a CD cause it's a HD partition.

[Zadian]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
<STRONG>I get the feeling sometimes that - (...) - we OS X users are talking ourselves into believing that OS X is slow.
(...)
Where are the metrics that prove X to be 'slow' then ?</STRONG>

People think Mac OS X is slow because the finder is unresponsive.
Many people think the finder is the OS.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Zadian:
<STRONG>

People think Mac OS X is slow because the finder is unresponsive.
Many people think the finder is the OS.</STRONG>

Also, with so few major applications being availible (most notably photoshop and fcp) there hasn't really been anything to compare. So naturally the finder responsiveness has been the focus of most users griefs. With OS X 10.1 (tentenpointone - that one still bugs me ), most of that should be fixed, and we will see applications pouring in to compare speeds with.

[Kate]

Originally posted by NeilCharter:<STRONG>Well Kate you certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons. </STRONG>

..sometimes I like to put my finger into an ants nest. I had a big laugh. How aggressive people can react when you fail to chime in into praise.

Originally posted by NeilCharter:
<STRONG>A couple of things - the QueFire 10x12x32 works fine ......</STRONG>

..this issue is solved, and my point was just making fun out of the fact you need a PC to go on with the "most advanced OS". Sorry if that hurt someones feelings.

-The Cocoa versus Carbon thing with regard to the Finder:
The Cocoa framework is much more mature than the Carbon one, so if Apple really wanted to shine with the most mission critical app (which I think the Finder actually is) then they could/should have done it from scratch using that framework.
And I am aware of the fact that they have to eat their own dog food, so it remains an academic question. And the Finder remains in a sort of unfinished state. Compare the refinement of that well done DVD player with the lack thereof in the Finder and you got my point. That's easy.

-My statement about the habits of "pros":
I mean graphics industry with "pro" not the IT or app developer or other "pros", because the graphics industry hosts the really big percentage of Mac Pro useres . And in fact, those pros need things yet undelivered by Mac OS X. To name but a few:
SCSI support
tablet support
scanner support (real pro scanners, each worth $50,000)
colour correction
font support for their giant font library worth millions

And those people are VERY conservative about changing their OS, they need very good reasons and very convincing feature advantages and stability under their respective environment, which Mac OS X cannot quite match yet, due to the above mentioned lack of support. And in fact, those people are indeed using Mac OS 8.6 still quite often for some backward compatibilty issues.

However there is the big, really big chance for Mac OS X to get a grip in the same sector as Helios, which dominates a certain sector of that industry. Especially Mac OS X Server could do some magic there, provided that Apple will deliver some essentials in later on versions of X.

For my personal use I welcome and support and use Mac OS X as long as the feature advantages are not outweighed by its shortcomings, and there are essential shortcomings still present, which I have no doubt will be sorted out in coming revisions.

From my personal point of view, the advantage of having very smooth DVD playback even under system load does not outbalance the shortcomings of the Finder and the shortcomings of the networking, so sorry if I have to criticise those things again.

I am delighted that so many seem to be excited about Mac OS X and can easyly neglect the not so good working parts, since that does indeed strengthen the user base and development and transition to Mac OS X. But you should be able to also take a look from the perspective of those who have to make a living from their Macs and understand how mission critical things can be that you may regard as an minor issue.

Given what I wrote above, I think I need not commenting on requests to switch to Windows, do I?

Since no one else has mentioned it, 10.1 build 5G64 is on the ADC servers now, so even us plebe Apple Select Developers can get it.

So far I like it a lot, but there's two things that were present in 5G48 that I'm most concerned about:

(1) Terminal in 5G48 was really unstable. Doing things with line editing in a Terminal window (say, like inserting characters in the middle of a shell input line) often would blow it right out of the water.

(2) WHO CAME UP WITH THIS BLOODY STUPID HIGH BOUNCING "ATTENTION!" ICON CONCEPT IN THE DOCK?!?!?! They should be *shot* for this - when a non-foreground app has output and needs attention (popup window, or an incoming Instant Message, for example), the Dock makes the application's icon bounce up and down in the Dock, 'way higher than the normal application startup bounce. THIS FEATURE SUCKS THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THE CPU. And ... YOU CAN'T TURN IT OFF. No Dock preference refers to it. If you turn on Auto-Hide, the icon STILL bounces (back into view!). If you turn off Animate Application Startup, it STILL bounces. I can find NO preference ANYWHERE in any .plist file to turn this stupid thing off. When I am in Classic and the attention bounce happens, any text input I'm doing crawls like a 1200-baud modem!@! WTF?!? And this on a G4/533 with NVidia GeForce2 MX card and 512 Mbytes of RAM!

Are you listening, Apple?!? If you want "cutesy" crap like this, fine - just let us TURN IT OFF in the Dock Preferences panel, please!!! Arggggh!

Otherwise, 10.1 is looking peachy - my QuickCam VC Classic driver is somehow recognized in Classic mode, so I can send WebCam video from a Classic videoconferencing app (CU-SeeMe) - I consider this nothing short of a miracle. Way to go, whomever made this magic happen! Go Apple ...

[Kate]

...well, to please everyone, I herewith suggest that Apple makes a new preferences pane with a big button that reads "candy off" and by which all instances of bubblegum, bouncing, genieing and the likes gracefully vanish.
And while impressing newbies you could switch the show on again. Cool?

That would be a so cool feature! Some programmers seem to have a lot of time implementing gimmicks while there is urgent need for additional coding of essentials. What a world!

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by &lt;Riot Nrrrd�&gt;:
<STRONG> WHO CAME UP WITH THIS BLOODY STUPID HIGH BOUNCING "ATTENTION!" ICON CONCEPT IN THE DOCK?!?!?! </STRONG>

I love it. One of the best new 10.1 features for me. For those of us that hide the dock we couldn't see if an app needed our attention.

Thanks Apple, I love it.

[naden]

Originally posted by Kate:
<STRONG>
-The Cocoa versus Carbon thing with regard to the Finder:
The Cocoa framework is much more mature than the Carbon one, so if Apple really wanted to shine with the most mission critical app (which I think the Finder actually is) then they could/should have done it from scratch using that framework.
And I am aware of the fact that they have to eat their own dog food, so it remains an academic question. And the Finder remains in a sort of unfinished state. Compare the refinement of that well done DVD player with the lack thereof in the Finder and you got my point. That's easy.
</STRONG>

This is a ridiculous point. Maturity of frameworks means nothing. I can write a shitty Cocoa app that unexpectedly quits everytime it launchs. Likewise well written Carbon apps can look really slick eg. Entourage X. A slick app is dependant on a slick development team/process. Proof of point: Drive 10. A Carbon app which won best OSX UI at WWDC 2001.

Also what indications do you have that the DVD Player is written in Cocoa ?

<STRONG>
SCSI support
</STRONG>

Ummmm .. why ? All new scanners and input devices are either USB or Firewire. SCSI is a deprecated technology.

<STRONG>
tablet support
scanner support (real pro scanners, each worth $50,000)
</STRONG>

This is Apple's reponsibility .. why ? It is the role of the tablet and scanner companies to write the drivers for Mac OSX. Driver development is much improved in OSX. So harass those companies not Apple.

<STRONG>
colour correction
</STRONG>

Last time I saw Colorsync was a control panel in the System Prefs.

<STRONG>
font support for their giant font library worth millions
</STRONG>

What more do you expect from Apple in this respects.

<STRONG>
And those people are VERY conservative about changing their OS, they need very good reasons and very convincing feature advantages and stability under their respective environment, which Mac OS X cannot quite match yet, due to the above mentioned lack of support. And in fact, those people are indeed using Mac OS 8.6 still quite often for some backward compatibilty issues.
</STRONG>

By definition the 'features' listed above are not part of an OS. For most of them you are simply misguided to think that Apple should take on the responsibility of driver development for third party products.

Similarly, those 'features' are not what I would call important by a large majority of users whom Apple should please first and then get to the minorities.

Apple should not however cater for people who are unwillinging to make any effort to upgrade their technology eg. SCSI scanners.

<STRONG>

From my personal point of view, the advantage of having very smooth DVD playback even under system load does not outbalance the shortcomings of the Finder and the shortcomings of the networking, so sorry if I have to criticise those things again.
</STRONG>

I personally dont know of any problem with the underlying networking stacks. There are a few threading issues that Tim@Omni raised but again there must be something Apple is struggling with if they would leave something like that in.

<STRONG>

I am delighted that so many seem to be excited about Mac OS X and can easyly neglect the not so good working parts, since that does indeed strengthen the user base and development and transition to Mac OS X. But you should be able to also take a look from the perspective of those who have to make a living from their Macs and understand how mission critical things can be that you may regard as an minor issue.
</STRONG>

A large majority of users aren't affected by a large percentage of the problems with the current OS. Similarly, the advantages of the new OS are extraordinarily compelling.

I mean let's face facts here .. too many people are asking too much of a company like Apple whom has limited resources compared to say Microsoft. Similarly, people should realise that Apple can not be expected to support every X computer with Y attachments and Z software. Especially, ones where XYZ is a) not in Apple's mandate or b) a deprecated technology.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Kate:
<STRONG>That would be a so cool feature! Some programmers seem to have a lot of time implementing gimmicks while there is urgent need for additional coding of essentials. What a world! </STRONG>

Actually, from what I'm told, the little optical gimmicks take so little effort to implement in comparison to the REAL work that needs to get done that you might as well let the odd programmer spend fifteen minutes on them - after all, a lot of marketing sparkle for relatively little work...

[De Luca]

According to the definition, your use of "deprecated" is totally incorrect. Where do you even dig it up?

Main Entry: dep�re�cate
Pronunciation: 'de-pri-"kAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cat�ed; -cat�ing
Etymology: Latin deprecatus, past participle of deprecari to avert by prayer, from de- + precari to pray -- more at PRAY
Date: 1628
1 a archaic : to pray against (as an evil) b : to seek to avert &lt;deprecate the wrath ... of the Roman people -- Tobias Smollett&gt;
2 : to express disapproval of
3 a : PLAY DOWN : make little of &lt;speaks five languages ... but deprecates this facility -- Time&gt; b : BELITTLE, DISPARAGE &lt;the most reluctantly admired and least easily deprecated of ... novelists -- New Yorker&gt;
- dep�re�cat�ing�ly /-"kA-ti[ng]-lE/ adverb
- dep�re�ca�tion /"de-pri-'kA-sh&n/ noun