[chingwei]

Hi all,
Read the news on Yahoo!

For the busy or lazy, the synopsis is that secret documents have now been made available that reveal (what a lot of people already knew) that the U.S. government (Pres. Ford and Henry Kissinger) gave the Indonesian government the green light to invade East Timor in 1975, which resulted in around 200,000 innocent people massacred. The invasion was done with U.S. weapons sold to Indonesia.

I'm glad the truth has finally been revealed. Want to talk about participating in terrorist activities? 200,000 people died. US supplied the arms and support, all in the name of "anti-communism"...By today's anti-terrorism standards, we should be blowing ourselves back to the stone age!

Sad. And it makes me mad.

-Ching-Wei

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: chingwei ]

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: chingwei ]

[grok420]

Originally posted by chingwei:
<STRONG>Hi all,
Read the news on Yahoo!

I'm glad the truth has finally been revealed. Want to talk about participating in terrorist activities? 200,000 people died. US supplied the arms and support, all in the name of "anti-communism"...

Sad. And it makes me mad.

-Ching-Wei

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: chingwei ]</STRONG>

Add it to the list. We've been doing this shite for decades. Very shameful. Kissinger's a war criminal in my estimation and for a lot more than East Timor.

Ah, the Freedom of Information Act! When will Nader get the credit he deserves for all he's done? When will Americans demand to uncover more of this kind of thing and hold leaders accountable for their deplorable actions?

[CommonSense]

Originally posted by grok420:
<STRONG>
Ah, the Freedom of Information Act! When will Nader get the credit he deserves for all he's done? When will Americans demand to uncover more of this kind of thing and hold leaders accountable for their deplorable actions?</STRONG>

Let's remember that most Americans use Windows. So consequently, I'm not holding my breath.

(Wow, a comment on the American public AND a slight bashing of Windows simultaneously! A perfect MacNN forums post! )

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by grok420:
<STRONG>
When will Americans demand to uncover more of this kind of thing and hold leaders accountable for their deplorable actions?</STRONG>

Better yet, when will the world demand that our leaders be held accountable?

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by CommonSense:
Let's remember that most Americans use Windows. So consequently, I'm not holding my breath.

Actually, they don't use Windows; it uses them! Just think; if you held you're breath, you'd turn blue, just like the Blue Screen of Death they see frequently!

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
<STRONG>

Better yet, when will the world demand that our leaders be held accountable?</STRONG>

not sure if that will ever happen.
Pretty much every government at some point has made either secret or despicable decisions, the greater the power, the greater the severity or impact of those decisions.

Why? I dunno, I guess because at some point the habit of Keeping Things Secret from other countries becomes the habit of KTS from its own citizens becomes the habit of Knowing What's Best for everyone and becomes In Our National Interests.

Its the tendency of power to corrupt.

Someone would have to have a much larger stick than ours to take that stick out of our hands long enough to whip us with theirs. Not sure if that would ever happen (obviously I hope not)

The main problem with US Foreign Policy to memory is that the citizreny rarely understands or knows about it, while foriegners suffer for it and blame the ignorant US people...who become surprised to be hated by people they never even thought about before.

But, its a weird position. the World both hates and loves when the US acts as the world's police. We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't step in in foreign turmoil that we may or may not have had a part in anyways.

sorry, just rambling without a point I guess.

The bottom line is that when our own government does not fill us in on what they are doing, it becomes hard for us to take them to task for their decisions, being ignorant of them until after the fact. And then, of course, the damage is done.

I don't know what to do about it short of no longer allowing rich white men to run for office or head the military.

[Millennium]

By today's anti-terrorism standards, we should be blowing ourselves back to the stone age!

Not on the grounds of this. Yes, a terrible thing happened there, and the ones who are responsible should be held accountable. But they are no longer in power; to go to war against a nation because of the actions of an administration that no longer exists would be pointless. A large part of the reason for the war in Afghanistan is to remove the Taliban -the government that supported the acts of 9/11- from power (and they still hold power in a few areas, however small). But that has already been done for the administration responsible for the East Timor invasion, or at least the relevant members thereof. Go after them by legal means now, if you wish; I doubt they'd be convicted, but we're in agreement that they should at least be tried.

The war in Afghanistan is not about the past. If it were, we'd be no better than them. That's basically what the ethnic infighting is about in Afghanistan anyway; quarrels so ancient and meaningless that the people involved don't even know why they're fighting each other anymore. But this war is about what is going on here and now. That is what makes it different, and indeed, it makes all the difference. The people responsible are still alive to be held accountable. They should be.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>The war in Afghanistan is not about the past. If it were, we'd be no better than them. That's basically what the ethnic infighting is about in Afghanistan anyway; quarrels so ancient and meaningless that the people involved don't even know why they're fighting each other anymore. But this war is about what is going on here and now. That is what makes it different, and indeed, it makes all the difference. The people responsible are still alive to be held accountable. They should be.</STRONG>

Sure it is, that was nearly 3 whole months ago. What difference does it make if it happened in the past or not? If it happened it happened, if justice is required is there a statute of limitations on it? If that justice requires death, what's wrong with natural death?

[anarkisst]

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Sorry, that line just came to mind. If you don't like what we've done in the past and with what we are doing now...then move to Indonesia, Vietnam, Panama, Israel or El Salvador and enjoy what they have now...that ain't our fault. It's their fingers on our triggers. It's their choice what they do with them.

America still is and always will be the best place for anyone to have freedom and a real chance for a better life. We have had our horrible mistakes (anyone mention NIXON yet?) but we're still the best...if this is not for you then move.