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SpeedRacer · May 10, 2002, 08:41 PM

Having just tried out 6C35 on a multitude of different "supported" and unsupported machinery, i'm a bit taken aback by the fact that the Radeon-equipped Cube/500 is little faster than the Rage128-equipped G4/450. Quartz responsiveness seems relatively the same across both machines.

Moreover, resizing windows and other GUI work still causes massive drains on CPU usage (according to CPU monitor) and jumpiness across the vast majority of apps.

Perhaps this question has been asked before, but with the fact that Sherlock 3, Rendevous, the Simple Finder, and a great many other WWDC announcements do not appear to be included in the copy received by developers, is it equally as possible that we we could be seeing these perceived increases in Quartz resizing/etc simply due to improvements in basic thread/OS - exclusive and independent of Quartz Extreme yet to be activated or included?

For something as major as hardware-accelerated graphics, i don't see that much difference between Rage128-based systems and the 2 Radeon/MX2-based systems it's been run on.

Speed

CheesePuff · May 10, 2002, 10:02 PM

I have the same build - same problems as you.

I am willing now to bet $100 that this is not the build the developers got (or if it was, there was no point because all it had was an updated Finder and some System Prefs).

Quartz Text Smoothing is faster, just a tad slower then QuickDraw, but everything else is still DOG SLOW.

Apparently the developers got build 37, we got 35.

Apple's own web site says "drastic improvements..." on live resizing, etc. It seems just as slow as 10.1.4 is to me, on supported Quartz Extreme hardware.

KidRed · May 10, 2002, 11:07 PM

It may not be faster everywhere, but it's faster in a lot of areas for me on my dual gig. It's definately not slower thats for sure. I wonder if there's a difference in how it's installed. I for one put it on a seperate 10gig drive by itself. I have no speed complaints. I barely see the new aqua drop, so there's definately a speed up.

Guy Incognito · May 10, 2002, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by CheesePuff:
I have the same build - same problems as you.

I am willing now to bet $100 that this is not the build the developers got (or if it was, there was no point because all it had was an updated Finder and some System Prefs).

Quartz Text Smoothing is faster, just a tad slower then QuickDraw, but everything else is still DOG SLOW.

Apparently the developers got build 37, we got 35.

Apple's own web site says "drastic improvements..." on live resizing, etc. It seems just as slow as 10.1.4 is to me, on supported Quartz Extreme hardware.

The cashier at the grocery store also hypothesized that Quartz Extreme wasn't fully implemented. He was dismayed that his CPU was still doing most of the work when scrubbing the dock with magnification on or by simply shaking a window vigorously around the screen.

The grocery store supervisor overheard the conversation and came over...he said that developers don't really need Quartz Extreme to be fully functional to get their work done. He might be right.

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

snomac · May 10, 2002, 11:37 PM

Wow, a conspiracy theory on software you're not supposed to have, brilliant! Wait until further builds leak and maybe you'll see more of an improvement.

brachiator · May 11, 2002, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:


The cashier at the grocery store also hypothesized that Quartz Extreme wasn't fully implemented. He was dismayed that his CPU was still doing most of the work when scrubbing the dock with magnification on or by simply shaking a window vigorously around the screen.

The grocery store supervisor overheard the conversation and came over...he said that developers don't really need Quartz Extreme to be fully functional to get their work done. He might be right.

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

LOL!

Guy, did the cashier opine whether the full debugging code was present in the WWDC, uh, "release"? My plumber thinks that might be the problem, although the guy that his wife is sleeping with thinks that the final release will both retain the debugging code for Remote Desktop troubleshooting, and will still be Snappier (tm). The plumber didn't have much to say about that, although he did mutter something about the terms of his wife's NDA.

Guy Incognito · May 11, 2002, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by brachiator:


LOL!

Guy, did the cashier opine whether the full debugging code was present in the WWDC, uh, "release"? My plumber thinks that might be the problem, although the guy that his wife is sleeping with thinks that the final release will both retain the debugging code for Remote Desktop troubleshooting, and will still be Snappier (tm). The plumber didn't have much to say about that, although he did mutter something about the terms of his wife's NDA.

Dunno, the cashier and the supervisor didn't seem too bright. They were just speculating that Quartz Extreme, while present, wasn't being used at its full potential. And I was like 'Just tell me how much these tomatoes cost so I can pay you and get the fark outta here.'

Then as I was leaving the store and was about to hop into my car, the cashier came up to me all winded and told me that it was possible to take screenshots of a DVD playing in 'DVD Player' and that window shadows could now overlay the DVD movies. I told him 'Who cares, fatboy!' and drove off.

[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]

SpeedRacer · May 12, 2002, 07:46 PM

Well i haven't been to the grocery store in quite a while and these new automated check-out machines aren't talking, so i guess i'll remain rumor-unendowed for the time being.

Either way, from everything i've seen in 10.2 so far, there's no way that there's any real hardware acceleration in 6C35...

or alternatively if there is and this is what Apple considers "acceleration" we all need to start looking a new platform.

Speed

KaptainKaya · May 12, 2002, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by SpeedRacer:


or alternatively if there is and this is what Apple considers "acceleration" we all need to start looking a new platform.

Oh here we go on jumping ship....

piracy · May 12, 2002, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by CheesePuff:
I have the same build - same problems as you.

I am willing now to bet $100 that this is not the build the developers got (or if it was, there was no point because all it had was an updated Finder and some System Prefs).

Quartz Text Smoothing is faster, just a tad slower then QuickDraw, but everything else is still DOG SLOW.

Apparently the developers got build 37, we got 35.

Apple's own web site says "drastic improvements..." on live resizing, etc. It seems just as slow as 10.1.4 is to me, on supported Quartz Extreme hardware.

Ok. One more f*cking time for people who don't understand: the WWDC Jaguar Developer Preview is, was, and ever will be, 6C35. The build that came on 5 CDs (yes, 5, not 6, even though Jobs said 6 during the keynote) that every developer got at WWDC is 6C35. The build that then subsequently leaked everywhere is also 6C35. There was a slashdot sumission that referred to 6C37, which is where the rumors started. That was inaccurate. Find ANYONE that went to WWDC. It shouldn't be that hard. The build they received was 6C35. And of course this will all be complicated even more since there will actually be a 6C37 someday, if it's not already built. BUT, no one outside of Apple (save perhaps people like Adobe, and in the case of Jaguar, I doubt even they got it) has anything other than 6C35.

All that aside, the point remains: the only build being reviewed, leaked, and pirated anywhere outside of Apple is 6C35, and nothing else. This includes what the developers got at WWDC. I'm not sure how to be any more clear about this.

I'm also having terrible 4K78 deja vu.

People had fantasies about 4K83, and the multiple builds of 4K78, and now the same people reincarnate are having fantasies about 6C37. For the purposes of this discussion, there is no 6C37. 6C35 performs plenty well for a four-months-from-release, developer-preview-only, alpha quality OS. No amount of justification about "we just want to see how things are going" or "well, if it was actually fast now, think of how fast it will be when it's released" or "but Jobs did X, Y, and Z on stage, and I can't do them with this build! The developers must have gotten magical 6C37!@!@" will make it any different.

The developers got 6C35. Then you illegally pirated Apple trade-secret material. Now you don't even have the brains to at least be correct about things in your posts. Sheesh.

[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: piracy ]

KaptainKaya · May 12, 2002, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by piracy:


Ok. One more f*cking time for people who don't understand: the WWDC Jaguar Developer Preview is, was, and ever will be, 6C35. The build that came on 5 CDs (yes, 5, not 6, even though Jobs said 6 during the keynote) that every developer got at WWDC is 6C35. The build that then subsequently leaked everywhere is also 6C35. There was a slashdot sumission that referred to 6C37, which is where the rumors started. That was inaccurate. Find ANYONE that went to WWDC. It shouldn't be that hard. The build they received was 6C35. And of course this will all be complicated even more since there will actually be a 6C37 someday, if it's not already built. BUT, no one outside of Apple (save perhaps people like Adobe, and in the case of Jaguar, I doubt even they got it) has anything other than 6C35.

All that aside, the point remains: the only build being reviewed, leaked, and pirated anywhere outside of Apple is 6C35, and nothing else. This includes what the developers got at WWDC. I'm not sure how to be any more clear about this.

I'm also having terrible 4K78 deja vu.

People had fantasies about 4K83, and the multiple builds of 4K78, and now the same people reincarnate are having fantasies about 6C37. For the purposes of this discussion, there is no 6C37. 6C35 performs plenty well for a four-months-from-release, developer-preview-only, alpha quality OS. No amount of justification about "we just want to see how things are going" or "well, if it was actually fast now, think of how fast it will be when it's released" or "but Jobs did X, Y, and Z on stage, and I can't do them with this build! The developers must have gotten magical 6C37!@!@" will make it any different.

The developers got 6C35. Then you illegally pirated Apple trade-secret material. Now you don't even have the brains to at least be correct about things in your posts. Sheesh.

[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: piracy ]

I have to agree. Last Thursday, RAILhead Design stated that build 6C36 was being seeded.

As everyone knows, Apple made a pre-release build of Jaguar (OS X 10.2) available to the guys and gals at the WWDC earlier this week. Reports are stating that the build is fairly solid and the added features are great � which is always good to hear regarding such an early build.

However, the �public� release of the WWDC version of OS X 10.2 hasn�t stopped Apple�s programming team from their heavy coding, and the next seed of 10.2 will be made available to certain developers this weekend. The next seed will be build 6C36, and it will put us that much closer to the next major OS update planned for summer release.

Thats a direct quote from Maury on his site...

sderaj · May 12, 2002, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
The next seed will be build 6C36, and it will put us that much closer to the next major OS update planned for summer release.[/i]

Thats a direct quote from Maury on his site...

I am sorry, that is false. Apple are way passed 6C35. They release a build a day, sometimes two, it depends if the build passes quick looks. One build could be perfect, and then the very next build could have a kernel panic every time you attempt to restart from after installing the build from the NetInfo server on your node.

SpeedRacer · May 13, 2002, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
Oh here we go on jumping ship....

Dam right. I support these machines on a daily basis. As reasoning behind the desire of one to "jump ship" (and a possible desire is all it really is at this point) i could repeat what has been said by a thousand others in this forum regarding the arrogance of setting a minimum hardware standard below what the exact same company's software requires. Seriously... to the degree in which you're entire philosophy about being in the computer business is centered around producing the most seemless integration and optimal performance between software and hardware is concerned, you just don't do that!

A primary source of debate on these forums has been over the ability of QE to operate on specs that are lower than 32MB, Radeon/MX2 video - a debate sparked by a difference in what Apple has posted on it's website (stating 32MB as "optimal") and what SJ demo'ed at WWDC (stating 32 is "required"). Folks have been screaming that they have the definitive answer about whether it works or does not for nearly a week now...

Yet ultimately every argument for or against is moot if QE is not even present in the WWDC build, correct?

The topic of this thread was merely to ask if anyone could show for certain that hardware acceleration was present in the WWDC build or not. The closest we've come is rumors from the local grocery store clerks

Well OK, Guy, i admit. That post was pretty &%^ing funny.

Speed

KaptainKaya · May 13, 2002, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by sderaj:


I am sorry, that is false. Apple are way passed 6C35. They release a build a day, sometimes two, it depends if the build passes quick looks. One build could be perfect, and then the very next build could have a kernel panic every time you attempt to restart from after installing the build from the NetInfo server on your node.

Well, I tend to believe Maury more because everything he has posted on builds of software has been extremely accurate. Even he, as a developer, uses 6C35.

Orbit · May 13, 2002, 02:04 AM

the build everyone is using is 6C35, though apple certainly has newer builds, and probably showed a newer one at wwdc.

refer to this thread for proof positive that quartz extreme works in build 6C35.

piracy · May 13, 2002, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by sderaj:


I am sorry, that is false. Apple are way passed 6C35. They release a build a day, sometimes two, it depends if the build passes quick looks. One build could be perfect, and then the very next build could have a kernel panic every time you attempt to restart from after installing the build from the NetInfo server on your node.

Again, even if this were true, it's beside the point that the only build, as of this writing, that has been seeded/leaked/pirated outside of Apple (other than 6B11 and 6B23) is 6C35.