[jfobart]

I'm a professional photographer and I need a lot of storage space. I currently have a Dual2.0GHz G5 that I've got connected to an eSATA 4drive box that I use as a JBOD storage system. It's running great, but after having some issues with my G5 recently, I'd like to get the storage system disconnected from the G5.

Also, I've got Apple Remote Desktop, and I'd like to ideally set up a system where I could access the file server over the internet when I'm out of town. Not for moving large amounts of data, but so that I can pull individual files or small numbers of files if clients request images or retouching while I'm out on the road.

So I've been thinking about getting a seperate box to attach the eSATA box too, and one that I could also use to manage and do daily backups of my home machines via Retrospect or something like that. I've got a 2nd G5 and a Powerbook in the mix... and soon I'll be getting a Macbook for my wife.

I'd like to get this done for as little as possible... up to $1000 is basically my limit, less is better... obviously you get what you pay for, but I don't need a brand new Intel XServe, and I certainly don't have the cash for one either!!

I've been thinking Xserve since I can just add an eSATA card (or move the one over from the G5) and have the storage box up and running quickly. Plus I like the dual gigabit ethernet- I've got a gigabit switch already on the network, so moving files back and forth won't be that slow, especially if I add a 2nd network card to each of the G5's (which won't cost much).


So do I really need a G5 XServe? I like the idea of it being a faster machine, but really, the machine isn't going to be processing images or anything (though that might be a good idea and it is an interesting idea I could explore, but I doubt I'll need that at this point). So it will literally just be a connection point for the eSATA box, it will store all the user home folders across the network, and also be a repository for my iTunes collection of music & video.

Would a dualG4 XServe suffice for those needs? Am I missing something? Is there a better option or alternative I should be exploring?


I do like the XServe's for the redundant power supplies, etc... if I used a used G4 machine or something similar as the file server, I'd always be worried about hardware failure and a lack of redundancy. That extra power supply, etc would probably make me sleep better... but am I just being paranoid?


Thanks for your time and opinions everybody!

[mduell]

Do you really need the performance of eSATA?
Assuming you use the large storage for archival and backup, and local storage for projects you're working on, I'd say the answer is no.

A Mac mini (Intel) and four 4-5 drive USB enclosures gives you 12-15TB. Sharing over the internet is easy with Apache and DynDNS. Figure $500 for a refurb or used mini and $125 each for the enclosures.

I'd worry about putting the server (or any computer, for that matter) and all the enclosures on a UPS before I'd worry about the redundant power supply.

Also, Xserves are loud. Very loud.

[jfobart]

Well, I already have an eSATA setup now... so it only makes sense to stick with it.

And no, the jobs aren't just long term archiving and storage, I sometimes have to keep jobs on the eSATA drives as well if I have a lot of things going on for a week or two, especially when a job can be 50-70GB each, plus retouched files.... it just makes for a need for a large fast storage (fast because I sometimes process out each file multiple times). So I'm already invested in eSATA and don't want to throw that investment away.

That's the problem with a mini- no expansion.

And don't worry, everything gets a UPS.

[mduell]

What's your investment in eSATA? One card and one enclosure. I'd dump it and move to mini/USB.

But if you want to keep eSATA, I'd go with a low end (500Mhz-1Ghz) G4 or even P3 tower. It's just a file server, it doesn't need much power at all. I know you can get a P3 in that range for about $100 from Retrobox; add a gigabit ethernet card for $10.

[hempcamp]

I vote G4. More than ample to be a file server.

--Chris

[OreoCookie]

I vote for something completely different. You mention redundant power supplies in an XServe is a big plus. But you miss the risk associated to a JBOD of four (!) drives: remember, one drive fails, your data is gone!

Don't waste your money on a server, fix the weakest link first! I suggest you take a look at this thread on different storage solutions. If you need the capacity of four drives, I would suggest a hardware RAID5 such a s a WiebeTech RT5 tower. Newer RT5s have an eSATA port in addition to FireWire400, 800 and USB2.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I vote for something completely different. You mention redundant power supplies in an XServe is a big plus. But you miss the risk associated to a JBOD of four (!) drives: remember, one drive fails, your data is gone!

He's running JBOD, not RAID0; if one of his drives fails, a quarter of his data is gone.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by mduell 

He's running JBOD, not RAID0; if one of his drives fails, a quarter of his data is gone.

Incorrect. Apple's particular implementation of JBOD requires all drives to work. If you lose one (e. g. due to hardware failure), you lose your data, unless you pay experts to recover the data.

Where it is different on most OSes is that the failure of one volume won't result in the loss of all data, but rather just the data that was located on that particular disk in the set. This has an effect very similar to a large patch of bad blocks on a single device. Unfortunately, Apple's implimentation of concatenated disks doesn't follow this model. The loss of a single disk will result in a wholly inaccessible volume but if you restore the missing member it will spring back to life though. The advantage to a concat versus a stripe on Mac OS X is that you can dynamically add volumes to expand the set without taking the volume offline.

[mduell]

Wow that's a really awful implementation. May as well go with RAID0 if you're not expanding your volume very often.

But the OP never said he was using Apple's software implementation. He may be using a more robust hardware implementation.

[OreoCookie]

He shouldn't use either JBOD or RAID0 at all in a production environment, unless he has another backup plan.

[jfobart]

Ok, to clear up some confusion:

I'm NOT looking at an XRaid, just an XServe connected via eSATA to my existing 4bay hotswap drive box to utilize as a file server.

I already have a rock solid backup plan in place and working for my data. If I lose a drive, it's ok, I have a backup copy of the drive, plus a bi-weekly offsite copy of the drives as well... plus DVDs as a last resort. So I'm not worried about hardware redundancy for the safety of the data- I'm concerned more with up time of the data... if the XServe power supply failed, it would roll over the 2nd power supply and I'd still be in business. If I'm running a PowerMac of any flavor, if I have a hardware failure of that type, I'm dead in the water. Hence my preference for an XServe over a G4 or G5 PowerMac.

I'm not using any sort of RAID, literally just individual disks and everything is organized and cataloged through iView Media Pro so I can find individual files across the many drives I have. That's why I said JBOD- that's exactly what my eSATA drive box is right now, it just hosts whatever 4 hotswap drives I have in it at the time- all as single disks, no RAIDs here thank you.


And because of how my data is stored (across multiple individual drives, each with 2 backups), I don't need to address my storage or capacity methods (because I just buy more drives and sleds as I need them)... it's having access to the data from anywhere on my network, plus being able to remotely access the data over the internet and using ARD 2.2. That way I don't have to ensure that the particular G5 I have the drive box connected to is on and the drives are up and running when I am on another computer (which is the case now, it's only a minor annoyance, but it's still annoying to have to go across the house to turn on the host G5 and the drive box should I need to access data on there while I'm working on my Powerbook or secondary G5).


Thanks for all the inputs so far though... keep 'em coming! I hope these clarifications help to make a little clearer what I have, where I'd like to go, and how I want to get there. Thanks all!!

[lilrabbit129]

I know you said you're not looking at a RAID system, but since you mentioned you're most concerned about uptime, then I suggest RAID1. If one of your drives dies, you don't even need to go into your backups, just add another drive and the array will rebuild itself. RAID != Backups, its redundancy with regards to uptime.

That being said, if you need the fault tolerance of multiple PSUs then maybe the Xserve would serve you best. But if this requirement isnt as high a priority then I'd suggest a G4, it should perform well enough for your needs.

Also a note, you mentioned earlier that you liked the Xserve because it had multiple gigabit ports and that you might like the extra speed (by adding another gigabit card to your other G5s). As far as I know, having multiple links to the same network on a single machine doesn't add speed. A machine will only use one link into your network. So say you have 1 network, and your machine has 2 cards, 192.168.1.100 and 192.168.1.101, data isn't going to flow through both, giving you 2x the speed, it'll flow through one of the ports. Now if that port happened to go down, then the other port could take over. I've tested this with my ethernet + wireless going into the same router. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[mduell]

I think there's some confusion as to what you mean by "JBOD".
Are you treating the 4 drive enclosure as "just a bunch of disks" and having each disk mounted seperately on your desktop? Or have you actually concatenated them into a single storage volume, either in hardware or software?

There's no doubt that you can do what you want to do with an Xserve (any model). I just don't think an Xserve is the best way to do it:
- They're expensive since they're relatively new and low volume.
- They're loud; really loud. You don't want one in a room that anyone will be living/working in. Think vacuum cleaner.
- The second power supply isn't that useful. Yes, it will save you from a power supply failure. But it won't save you from a million other failures.

You didn't seem to show any opinion, positive or negative, about getting a PC instead of a Mac. I think that's your best option: you can get an older (P3 era) server with 2 or 3 power supplies cheap and lots of eSATA RAID cards (run RAID5 or 0+1 to improve uptime) are available. Or buy a used PC and drop the guts into a new $250-300 case with dual power supplies.

Originally Posted by lilrabbit129 

Also a note, you mentioned earlier that you liked the Xserve because it had multiple gigabit ports and that you might like the extra speed (by adding another gigabit card to your other G5s). As far as I know, having multiple links to the same network on a single machine doesn't add speed. A machine will only use one link into your network. So say you have 1 network, and your machine has 2 cards, 192.168.1.100 and 192.168.1.101, data isn't going to flow through both, giving you 2x the speed, it'll flow through one of the ports. Now if that port happened to go down, then the other port could take over. I've tested this with my ethernet + wireless going into the same router. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Channel bonding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Link aggregation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[OreoCookie]

So just to make sure: have you really created a JBOD or do you have four individual volumes and distribute the data manually?

If the answer is the former, then your weakest link is clearly storage and not a psu failure. If you actually use the latter configuration, if one drive fails, the others won't be affected.

Again, you mention uptime, then you should start by fixing your weakest link -- which is clearly data storage and will remain data storage (I've had only two psus fail on me, whereas three harddrives broke on me in 2005). With an external hardware RAID, you have immediate access to your data as soon as you have physical access to the RAID.

In any case, you should have a look at the thread I've linked to in my first reply: professionals in a similar situation have found different solutions to their problems, including shelving harddrives and buying new trays and harddrives for certain projects. Once you have made up your mind, we will be more than happy to help you configure your system the way you want it to be.

Edit: I have to agree with mduell, any kind of server hardware literally rivals a vacuum cleaner. My parents IBM NetFinity 5000 is loud, ditto for XServes. Any server belongs in a basement, otherwise you will probably not be able to work in that environment anymore. I don't have experience with the new XServes, only G4 and G5 XServes, but I don't think they'll be any different.

[jfobart]

Thanks again for all the input people, I really do appreciate it.

1. I'd rather not get a PC to be the file server. Why? Because I'm moving away from PCs after nearly, geez, I can't even remember, 18 years? 19? I went fully Apple for everything except my Quickbooks machine (until I get an Intel Mac; and now I only access it through ARD anyways, the box is just sitting in the corner running for just that one program). Plus all my volumes are already formatted to OS Extended, and I don't want to go through moving them all to another format system just to run 'em on a PC box. Unless there was a very clear and easy way to get the thing running OS X, I'll stay clear. (I'm counting the days till I can pitch the one remaining PC I do have!)

2. I know the XServe's are loud... I have a closet in my office that's fairly large, 4'x8' walkin. I was going to put the server in there, and perhaps even build an enclosure for it (or buy one). So I'm not too worried about the noise. Also I installed and helped setup a buddies XServe & XRaid system, so I'm aware of the noise.

3. Yes, all the disks show up as individual volumes on my desktop- ie, JBOD (just a bunch of disks). I distribute the data manually (except for backups/archiving which I have routines plugged in to Retrospect & Backup & Chronosync to automate the process). No RAID implimentation whatsoever.


I think for me, the ideal setup is a Mac Mini with expansion slots so that I can add eSATA cards, extra network cards, etc. But there is no such beast. I like the form factor of the XServer (and the Mini).


If it were supported I'd just build a small form PC box and run OS X on it... but since that would be a hack, and I honestly don't want to have to screw with it that much, I don't see that as a viable option. Again, I'm loving the Apple products because "they just work", not because I tinkered with them for 2 weeks and finally got it running stable enough to use.

[mduell]

1. That's fine. But you from "cheap", "reliable", and "Mac" I think you're going to have to pick two.

2. Does the closet door seal reasonably well? If not, you're going to hear it. If so, the temp inside the closet is going to hit 120F about 20 minutes after you close it.

3. That's part of the confusion; what you're doing is not JBOD. I don't even think there's a word from what you're doing; you're just using them as independent drives.

[chris v]

You could get a really cheap G4 tower and stick an eSATA PCI card in it. The Gigabit Ethernet, Digital Audio & Quicksilver models are tanks, and can be had for cheap.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by jfobart 

3. Yes, all the disks show up as individual volumes on my desktop- ie, JBOD (just a bunch of disks). I distribute the data manually (except for backups/archiving which I have routines plugged in to Retrospect & Backup & Chronosync to automate the process). No RAID implimentation whatsoever.

No, it's not a JBOD. Check out some of the links I've provided to see what a real JBOD is.
If you understand this difference, you probably also understand the confusion.